Author Topic: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?  (Read 59322 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5449
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #105 on: December 19, 2012, 09:42:24 PM »
Maybe a Google Maps expert can tell us how wide the street perpendicular to the dogpath is.

On Google Earth, Twin Trees Lane looks to be a little over 20 feet wide.

A Honda Ridgeline is about 17 feet long.

Offline MJW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2012, 10:03:45 PM »
The first question is how the defense will present its case at the immunity hearing without having Zimmerman testify.  That is what I had in mind.

Sorry I misinterpreted it, though I'm not sure the answer is that much different. Zimmerman, of course, has the burden of proof by a preponderance of the evidence that he was acting in self defense; but the testimony from W6 and the first-responders, along with the lack of injuries (prior to the shooting) to Martin establish that Zimmerman was violently attacked by a stranger on a dark night. I think that shifts the burden to the state to show he was not in reasonable fear for his life.

Offline RickyJim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2012, 10:06:22 PM »
So, MJW, you think he can get immunity without testifying?

Offline MJW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2012, 10:13:04 PM »
So, MJW, you think he can get immunity without testifying?

That's hard to say without knowing how the evidence against him holds up. If the judge believes Zimmerman is the one screaming on the 911 call, I think she certainly should grant immunity, but if I were forced to make a prediction, I'd say it's unlikely.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 10:15:41 PM by MJW »

Offline DebFrmHell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #109 on: December 20, 2012, 01:04:03 AM »
That's hard to say without knowing how the evidence against him holds up. If the judge believes Zimmerman is the one screaming on the 911 call, I think she certainly should grant immunity, but if I were forced to make a prediction, I'd say it's unlikely.

IMO only.  I don't think the judge is going to rule in favor of self-defense in this case.  She has had two SYG hearings and kicked both to a jury.  The first one, I thought there was evidence to support self-defense and the jury acquitted the person on trial.  The last one I agreed with.  That one needs a jury.

I firmly believe that Zimmerman should not take the stand in an immunity hearing.  I think that MOM can proceed with his case since he has witnesses and injuries that support GZ's narrative.  The bar is lower and I believe that the preponderance of evidence is in favor of Zimmerman. 

The thing I like best about the immunity hearing is that it will lock down evidence that the prosecution intends to use against GZ in the event of a trial.   It can be used to impeach testimony in the event of a trial, if necessary.  (Remember I believe that there will be a trial.  Judges are elected officals.  Unless Debra Nelson wants to be "unelected" she will kick the can.)

The same could be said for Zimmerman.  I believe he has a firm self-defense case but no coaching in the world is going to get him around the hidden money in the fund.  He can explain his distrust, and with all of the events that transpired in the initial days/weeks following the shooting- I don't blame him, but it is still going to show him as dishonest which throws a shadow on his testimony.

He doesn't come across as a sympathetic figure.  He had to have been prepped extensively for that Hannity interview and, IMO, that was not successful.  That was a softball interview.  Getting crossed by the Prosecution is a whole 'nuther ballgame.  They will use anything they can against him.

Offline MJW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #110 on: December 20, 2012, 02:13:26 AM »
The same could be said for Zimmerman.  I believe he has a firm self-defense case but no coaching in the world is going to get him around the hidden money in the fund.  He can explain his distrust, and with all of the events that transpired in the initial days/weeks following the shooting- I don't blame him, but it is still going to show him as dishonest which throws a shadow on his testimony.

I don't see how that's even admissible.

Offline MJW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #111 on: December 20, 2012, 02:23:04 AM »
IMO only.  I don't think the judge is going to rule in favor of self-defense in this case.  She has had two SYG hearings and kicked both to a jury.

If Zimmerman loses the immunity issue in the trial court, I think he'll appeal to the 5th DCA. I can't see why anyone wouldn't. If you don't appeal, and then lose at trial, you can't appeal the immunity issue, since the state supreme court ruled that because the jury has determined beyond a reasonable doubt it wasn't self defense, they've consequently determined that the preponderance of evidence didn't support self defense.

Offline DebFrmHell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #112 on: December 20, 2012, 02:28:07 AM »
I don't see how that's even admissible.

I guess it depends on the path of questioning.  If there is a way to get it in there by way of scope, I can see it happening.  Even if the Prosecution just straight up says something like "Why did you lie about the funds in your account?" all of the objections in the world aren't going to unring the bell.

I am a pessimist and certainly an "IANAL type."

Thank you for the reminder about the appeal if it is needed.  IDK why I keep pushing that to the back of my mind.

Old age and medications!

Offline MJW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #113 on: December 20, 2012, 03:04:53 AM »
I see nothing in the court records to show that Kishawn Jones appealed the SYG ruling against him. I don't know why, since an appeal (by seeking a writ of prohibition) is available. I don't think I've ever seen one for the 5th DCA, so maybe there's a split between DCAs.

Offline Kyreth

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #114 on: December 20, 2012, 05:45:07 AM »
IMO only.  I don't think the judge is going to rule in favor of self-defense in this case.  She has had two SYG hearings and kicked both to a jury.  The first one, I thought there was evidence to support self-defense and the jury acquitted the person on trial.  The last one I agreed with.  That one needs a jury.

Well in the first one, even the guy's lawyer agreed that she made the right call and followed the law, and I think I tend to agree.

The first case IMO didn't meet a preponderance of the evidence required for Nelson to grant immunity (but there was enough for reasonable doubt), so it went as it should.  This recent case I couldn't see immunity being granted either.

They're totally different beasts than the Zimmerman case, in which the prosecution had to really, really stretch it to arguably even meet probable cause.  If Nelson doesn't grant immunity on that one, it's a shoe-in for the appellate court (and it'd be the same court that overturned Lester's ruling that would handle the appeal.

Offline RickyJim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #115 on: December 20, 2012, 06:57:54 AM »
I firmly believe that Zimmerman should not take the stand in an immunity hearing. 

What about at the trial?   Suppose the prosecution doesn't introduce any of Zimmeman's interviews - just relies on the NEN call, DeeDee, Sybrina and somebody who will testify that Zimmerman's gun killed Martin.  How does the defense get the judge to give the jury a self defense instruction without Zimmerman testifying?  Does Florida law allow the defense to introduce Zimmerman's out of court statements without him having to be cross examined on them?

Offline Kyreth

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #116 on: December 20, 2012, 08:29:42 AM »
What about at the trial?   Suppose the prosecution doesn't introduce any of Zimmeman's interviews - just relies on the NEN call, DeeDee, Sybrina and somebody who will testify that Zimmerman's gun killed Martin.  How does the defense get the judge to give the jury a self defense instruction without Zimmerman testifying?  Does Florida law allow the defense to introduce Zimmerman's out of court statements without him having to be cross examined on them?

W11/20 to testify that they heard the fight start by the T intersection. 
W6 to testify that he heard the fight coming from a distance, end up behind his house, and that he saw Trayvon on top of George. 
The photos of George and the numerous witnesses that saw George's injuries. 
The forensics experts that will testify that the evidence is consistent with Trayvon being on top of George when the shot was fired.
Experts such as Massad Ayoob who could explain how that position shows a disparity of force justifying lethal force in self defense.

And so on.  Showing reasonable doubt really will be easy, and the Defense's narrative could be told without George's testimony.

Offline RickyJim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #117 on: December 20, 2012, 09:01:19 AM »
What I think Kyreth means is that as long as the judge tells the jury that they can acquit on the basis of self defense, Zimmerman is home free.  (Well, as long as the jury wasn't afraid of repercussions to themselves, I would agree.)  I think he is also saying that Zimmerman's injuries and testimony that Martin was probably on top at the time of the shot is enough to cause a self defense instruction to be given to the jury, something which has a pretty low threshold, according to Florida case law. 

Now if we agree with all that, there is no reason for the prosecution not to put everything they have into their case, in particular Zimmerman's interviews.  But without Zimmerman to cross examine, I doubt they would have much of an impact.  But there is a serious possibility that Zimmerman will refuse to listen to O'Mara and West (and us  ;D) and insist on testifying.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 09:11:01 AM by RickyJim »

Offline leftwig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #118 on: December 20, 2012, 09:13:17 AM »
What about at the trial?   Suppose the prosecution doesn't introduce any of Zimmeman's interviews - just relies on the NEN call, DeeDee, Sybrina and somebody who will testify that Zimmerman's gun killed Martin.  How does the defense get the judge to give the jury a self defense instruction without Zimmerman testifying?  Does Florida law allow the defense to introduce Zimmerman's out of court statements without him having to be cross examined on them?

The defense would use the NEN (showing GZ talking calmly to dispatcher), Dee Dee (who says TM lost GZ, was by his house, started walking back and is the first to confront GZ verbally), John and Austin who had GZ on the ground screaming for help, the 911 call capturing screams for help, injury reports, photos, witness saying he looked like he just got his butt kicked, etc.  I'd think that would be plenty for reasonable doubt at trial. 

I personally think GZ testifies at an immunity trial and not at regular trial.  I'm not sure he has to testify to reach a preponderance of the evidence standard, but the one sticking point will be whether he started the conflict by doing something illegal.  This will be dependent on Dee Dee's testimony.  IF a judge only hears Dee Dee's statement and she repeats the claim that TM said "get off", then I'd think the defense would have to offer some evidence to counter that.  Although, given that Dee Dee said "the man" had a deep angry voice, and some other things that could be disproved, the defense might be able to impeach her enough that the entirety of her testimony won't carry much weight.  ITs even possible her testimony isn't allowed given the Martin's counsel involvement with her prior to law enforcement being given her name.

Lots of variables at play, but I think the injuries, screams for help and eye witness testimony gets GZ use of reasonable force without having to testify.  The question I think would be whether he needs to testify in order to show he didn't instigate/start the violence.  I think GZ wants to testify, but the defense team is smart enough to know that they aren't going to put him on the stand unless they feel its necessary.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5449
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #119 on: December 20, 2012, 10:28:55 AM »
ITs even possible her testimony isn't allowed given the Martin's counsel involvement with her prior to law enforcement being given her name.

Why would that be grounds for excluding her testimony?

 

Site Meter
click
tracking