Author Topic: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?  (Read 83291 times)

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Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #150 on: December 21, 2012, 01:37:29 PM »
I think an argument can be made that intention to flee does not necessarily show consciousness of guilt so much as it shows consciousness of the fact that innocent men get convicted and sent to prison all the time, and that Zimmerman went from thinking that he'd explained everything to the satisfaction of the police that it was self-defense and that there wouldn't be any charges, to it seeming that the entire government of the state of Florida had decided to throw him to the wolves to appease public  opinion.

Though I agree that flight may not really be an indication of guilt, courts have long held that it is, and that's what matters most in a trial. As the Florida supreme court said in Straight v. State, 397 So. 2d 903 (Fla. 1981):

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When a suspected person in any manner attempts to escape or evade a threatened prosecution by flight, concealment, resistance to lawful arrest, or other indications after the fact of a desire to evade prosecution, such fact is admissible, being relevant to the consciousness of guilt which may be inferred from such circumstance.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #151 on: December 21, 2012, 02:31:21 PM »
If you interpret what Zimmerman says as an answer to Hannity's preceding question, it was 30 seconds after he lost sight of Martin.

Only if you take the question out of context.

Didn't you just say that if Zimmerman saw Martin again before the call ended, you think he would have mentioned it? Did I misunderstand?

Zimmerman told SPD investigators that he was off the phone when Martin spoke to him, and that he was reaching or searching for his phone when Martin hit him. He said those things over and over. They were among the most consistent parts of his story.

My point was that there is a timeline problem with Zimmerman claiming the encounter with Martin was less than 30 seconds after the end of the call. I don't know what your point would be, in suggesting he meant it was even earlier, before the call even ended.

Hannity's question was ambiguous in another way. He might have meant this:

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I was walking through to my street, Retreat View Circle. And I was going to give them the actual street number and name.

I think it is clear from Zimmerman's SPD statements that he claimed to be on RVC by the time he started giving directions, about 3:00 on the recording. It was a little over 30 seconds later that Zimmerman said 'I don't know where this kid is'.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #152 on: December 21, 2012, 03:43:40 PM »
NMNM, all I was saying that the interpretation of the 30 seconds as the time between the end of the call and the time Martin comes into view is not obvious from Hannity's question.  It just seems to be the interpretation that comes closest to making Zimmerman's answer make sense.  Unfortunately throughout the interview Hannity's questions are not very precise and he  never has Zimmerman clarify his answers.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #153 on: December 21, 2012, 05:59:05 PM »

And as I've posted before: He goes on Hannity and says something to the effect that he'd take it all back or he'd stay in the car or he'd never have even looked twice at that shadowy figure that rainy night--he's just given the entire world rope to fashion a noose with.

Saying what he said? Pretty logical actually.

Maybe not pretty, not warm, not fuzzy, not postmodern PC America, but pretty logical.

Then I guess Zimmerman isn't so logical, since he recanted it at the end of the interview.

Video, Part 2, 1:18-51
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HANNITY: Is there anything you regret? Do you regret getting out of the car, to follow Trayvon that night?

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

HANNITY: Do you regret that you, you, had a gun that night?

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

HANNITY: Do you feel you wouldn't be here for this interview if you didn't have that gun?

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir. I -

HANNITY: You feel you would not be here?

ZIMMERMAN: I feel that it was all God's plan, and for me to second guess it or judge it -

HANNITY: Is there anything you might do differently, in retrospect, now that time has passed a little bit?

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

Video, Part 5, 5:22-6:18
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ZIMMERMAN: First, I'd like to re-address your question, when you asked if I would have done anything differently. When you asked that, I thought you were referring to, if I would not have talked to the police, if I would have maybe have gotten an attorney, if I wouldn't have taken the CVSA. And that I stand by. I would not have done anything differently.

But I do wish that there was something, anything, I could have done that wouldn't have put me in the position where I had to take his life. And I do want to tell everyone, my wife, my family, my parents, my grandmother, the Martins, the city of Stanford, and America that I am sorry that this happened.

I hate to think that because of this incident, because of my actions it's polarized and divided America. And I'm truly sorry.

Hannity explicitly asked Zimmerman if he regretted getting out of the car. Zimmerman seems to think we'll believe anything.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #154 on: December 21, 2012, 06:45:53 PM »
I agree, O'Mara will be very interested in what Dee Dee has to say about the couple of minutes between when TM lost GZ and was right by his fathers house until GZ is spotted again.  My guess is the answer will be "I don't remember".

The Crump/Julison line has always been that Martin was going home when Zimmerman 'confronted' him.

Dee Dee seems to follow the C/J line. For example, the C/J line is that Martin went to the 7-11 for the purpose of getting candy and a beverage for Chad. Chad himself said Martin had already decided to go before asking Chad if he wanted anything, and I don't think Chad ever said he asked for the beverage. Dee Dee's statements match C/J, not Chad.

When Dee Dee is asked to clarify what Martin was doing before the confrontation, I think she will say he was going home.

Offline spectator

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #155 on: December 22, 2012, 01:59:04 AM »
Then I guess Zimmerman isn't so logical, since he recanted it at the end of the interview.

Video, Part 2, 1:18-51
Video, Part 5, 5:22-6:18
Hannity explicitly asked Zimmerman if he regretted getting out of the car. Zimmerman seems to think we'll believe anything.



Offline spectator

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #156 on: December 22, 2012, 02:16:04 AM »
There's all kinds of people out there that have different opinions and see things in their own unique way.

Zimmerman's actions and his words have been criticized & twisted by so many Monday morning quarterbacks, it's truly hilarious.

It's easy for some folks to criticize George but they also struggle to understand the basic nuances of life and common sense.




Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #157 on: December 22, 2012, 08:12:02 AM »
Then I guess Zimmerman isn't so logical, since he recanted it at the end of the interview.

Video, Part 2, 1:18-51
Video, Part 5, 5:22-6:18
Hannity explicitly asked Zimmerman if he regretted getting out of the car. Zimmerman seems to think we'll believe anything.

What's the matter, Skippy, miss me, gotta go back a few days to try and prove something or start something?

You can of course read that as GZ "recanting", but it's not really. It's expanding and amplifying. And he's always said he was sorry he had to kill TM, so I'm not certain what your issue with what he said is.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #158 on: December 22, 2012, 09:22:26 AM »
You can of course read that as GZ "recanting", but it's not really. It's expanding and amplifying. And he's always said he was sorry he had to kill TM, so I'm not certain what your issue with what he said is.

So in this statement of Zimmerman's
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But I do wish that there was something, anything, I could have done that wouldn't have put me in the position where I had to take his life.
the something, anything, didn't include going back to the car instead of forward to RVC to see if he could get a peek of Martin running towards the back entrance after he told the dispatcher, "okay" or better, moving the car towards the back entrance, etc.?  Zimmerman's insistence that he wouldn't, even after having much time to think about it, do anything differently might not sit too well with a judge and jury.  The prosecution's biggest asset, by far, is Zimmerman himself.


Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #159 on: December 22, 2012, 09:37:23 AM »
I don't understand this. What would Zimmerman have been able to see if Martin turned onto the dogwalk, that he wouldn't have been able to see if Martin ran to RVC before turning? Either way, Martin would have turned right and disappeared behind a building.

The dogwalk doesn't lead to the back entrance. Its southern end is a T, mirroring the one at the north end. Of three possible routes, TTL, RVC, and the dogwalk, TTL is the one that leads to the back entrance if you keep following it.

Absent Zimmerman's statements, the police call is consistent with any of the three, but TTL seemed most likely to me. We discussed this on the blog, before Zimmerman's statements were released.

Under the lighting conditions that evening, I was guessing that Zimmerman from his car could see Martin turn right, down the dogpath but not right, down RVC.  Just how far is the distance from where we think Zimmemran was parked to each of those routes?  Zimmerman said 100 feet to RVC on Hannity and I am wondering how far off that was.   What you say makes it even clearer that moving the car down TTL towards the back entrance would have made much more sense than getting out and walking to RVC.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 09:41:27 AM by RickyJim »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #160 on: December 22, 2012, 09:56:17 AM »
Under the lighting conditions that evening, I was guessing that Zimmerman from his car could see Martin turn right, down the dogpath but not right, down RVC. 

A long time ago, someone found an article on things drivers should know about headlights. It gives the average range of high beam headlights as 'about 350 feet'. The distance from Zimmerman's truck to RVC looks to be about 280 feet on Google Earth.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #161 on: December 22, 2012, 10:06:21 AM »
A long time ago, someone found an article on things drivers should know about headlights. It gives the average range of high beam headlights as 'about 350 feet'. The distance from Zimmerman's truck to RVC looks to be about 280 feet on Google Earth.

I guess then we will have to wait for confirmation from the police that Zimmerman's headlights were pointed down the cut through towards RVC.  As I said before, which road Martin turned right on isn't so important since if it was RVC, he undoubtedly returned to the dogpath before Zimmemman could see him on RVC.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #162 on: December 22, 2012, 10:34:29 AM »
he undoubtedly returned to the dogpath before Zimmemman could see him on RVC.

Why do you say that?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #163 on: December 22, 2012, 10:46:01 AM »
I guess then we will have to wait for confirmation from the police that Zimmerman's headlights were pointed down the cut through towards RVC. 

I think you may have forgotten the point we were arguing.

I don't have to show that Zimmerman's headlights were actually illuminating RVC. You have to show that they couldn't have been, if you want argue which route Martin took without using Zimmerman's interview statements.


Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #164 on: December 22, 2012, 11:07:13 AM »
To clarify and summarize my argument about what we know without Zimmerman's testimony, we can be sure that, during the call, Zimmerman didn't see Martin on RVC or anywhere else after he got out of the car or else he would have told the dispatcher.  What Martin's exact route was is not important.  We know that it started and ended at the dogpath north "T" and was approximately of a four minute duration.  He could have gone down the dogpath to Brandy Green's condo and back during to four minutes without Zimmerman seeing him.  Zimmerman was off the very dark dogpath during that period since he had only the use of a tiny keychain flashlight to see where he was going and also look for Martin. 
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 11:17:36 AM by RickyJim »

 

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