Author Topic: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?  (Read 83309 times)

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Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #165 on: December 22, 2012, 01:02:10 PM »
What Martin's exact route was is not important. 

It was you who kicked off this round of discussion, by suggesting that the defense could show where Martin disappeared without using Zimmerman's interview statements. I don't know if doing that would be of any use to them.

 

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #166 on: December 22, 2012, 01:54:27 PM »
It was you who kicked off this round of discussion, by suggesting that the defense could show where Martin disappeared without using Zimmerman's interview statements. I don't know if doing that would be of any use to them.
I think more then where he disappeared the defense would like to show when it happened.  If they could argue that it was approximately at the time Zimmerman said "Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood" and the car door closes at about 7:11:45 PM, then they could argue that Martin was out of Zimmerman's sight for about 4 minutes, giving him plenty of time to go home with Zimmerman unable to view him doing that.  I think that geography shows that the only way Zimmerman would have said what he did on the call was for Martin to had turned south down either the dogpath or Retreat View Circle.  I am dismissing the possibility that that Martin ran down TTL while Zimmerman walked in the cut through towards RVC because then, Zimmerman would not have admitted to the dispatcher that he was following Martin.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #167 on: December 22, 2012, 02:38:02 PM »
then they could argue that Martin was out of Zimmerman's sight for about 4 minutes, giving him plenty of time to go home with Zimmerman unable to view him doing that.

From the T to Brandy Green's back door is about 380 feet, a minute and a quarter at an average walk. They don't need nearly 4 minutes.

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I am dismissing the possibility that that Martin ran down TTL while Zimmerman walked in the cut through towards RVC because then, Zimmerman would not have admitted to the dispatcher that he was following Martin.

He might, if he was going to RVC expecting to see Martin crossing it on his way to the back gate. Zimmerman could also have chased Martin south on TTL.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #168 on: December 22, 2012, 03:18:23 PM »
He might, if he was going to RVC expecting to see Martin crossing it on his way to the back gate. Zimmerman could also have chased Martin south on TTL.

I don't agree that Zimmerman would have said "Yeah" to "Are you following him" if the situation was Martin running down TTL while Zimmerman walking perpendicularly to TTL.  He would only have said "Yeah" if he was at a spot at which Martin was previously.  For the second scenario, I can't imagine a chase down TTL with Zimmerman on foot.  Why would he have gotten out of the car instead of moving it like he did between the clubhouse and the cut through?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #169 on: December 22, 2012, 03:44:16 PM »
Why would he have gotten out of the car instead of moving it like he did between the clubhouse and the cut through?

I've often wondered why Zimmerman would park his car where he claims to have left it. Why not pull all the way up to the cut through? None of the SPD investigators bothered to ask.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #170 on: December 22, 2012, 04:02:56 PM »
I've often wondered why Zimmerman would park his car where he claims to have left it. Why not pull all the way up to the cut through? None of the SPD investigators bothered to ask.

To which of his statements are you referring?  I thought he said he parked at the cut through so that his headlights illuminated it. 

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #171 on: December 22, 2012, 04:19:56 PM »
To which of his statements are you referring? 

Zimmerman indicated the parking location twice. The first time was in the second part of the first interview, when he marked the map for Singleton. The second time was in the reenactment. The locations agree closely. I would say about 50 to 60 feet west of where he could have parked, to be as close as possible to the cut through.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 04:24:32 PM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #172 on: December 22, 2012, 04:59:27 PM »
TTL make a ninety degree right turn just after where he says he parked so the headlights wouldn't illuminate the cut through had he parked closer to its start.  The sixth of the maps in the NY Times article shows this well.  Had Trayvon entered the cut through before Zimmerman stopped there?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #173 on: December 22, 2012, 05:23:58 PM »
TTL make a ninety degree right turn just after where he says he parked so the headlights wouldn't illuminate the cut through had he parked closer to its start.

I think Zimmerman could have pulled up another 30 feet or so before that was a problem.




Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #174 on: December 22, 2012, 10:06:32 PM »
Had Trayvon entered the cut through before Zimmerman stopped there?

Good question. Zimmerman didn't say.

This is one of the most variable parts of his story.

2/26-1, 11:06-29
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Zimmerman: The dispatcher, whoever answered the phone, asked me where they went. And I said I wasn't sure because I lost visual of him when he went in between houses. And he said "Well, can you tell me what direction he went?" And I said "Not really." And then all of a sudden I see him circling my car.

2/26-2, 3:19-36
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Singleton: We're just, we're gonna X this one out, because it's not where you meant. You meant that you came around here, and ended up here.

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: OK. OK. You ended up here. And then, is that when he circles your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: He comes out from where?

Zimmerman: I don't know.

Singleton: OK. All of a sudden you just notice he's circling your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Audio of SPD Interviews

Written Statement, pp. 1-2
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I pulled my vehicle over and called SPD non-emergency phone number. I told the dispatcher what I had witnessed, the dispatcher took note of my location & the suspect fled to a darkened area of the sidewalk, as the dispatcher was asking me for an exact location the suspect emerged from the darkness & circled my vehicle.

Reenactment, 3:33-42
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Zimmerman: And I saw him walking back that way, and then cut through the back of the houses. He looked back, and he noticed me, and he cut back through the houses.

CVSA, 26:55-27:47, 6:45:32-6:46:24
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Zimmerman: The operator asked me if I could get to somewhere where I could see, or at least give them a direction of where he was headed. 

Erwin: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: And I said "Yes." So I pulled out, and I drove adjacent to the clubhouse. And, I was unfamiliar with the street name. The operator asked me what street I was on. And it's not the street that I live on. It's a side street that cuts through the neighborhood. And I told him I didn't know. And, they said, "We need to know -" When I was at the clubhouse, I gave them the clubhouse address. And, they're like, "We need to know what house you're in front of." And I said, "Listen, if you come to the clubhouse, go straight, and left, and you'll see me there." At this point the guy walked around my car.

The first version, in 2/26-1, is consistent with the reenactment, though not as clear. In the reenactment, Zimmerman indicated with hand gestures that Martin went southward, 'through the back of the houses', which would mean the dogwalk.

In the written statement, Martin 'fled to a darkened area of the sidewalk'. That could be the area around the T, if for some reason it was not illuminated by Zimmerman's headlights. (Illustration)

In 2/26-2 and the CVSA, Zimmerman didn't mention seeing Martin walking away as he parked his truck. He didn't see Martin until the Great Circling, which in 2/26-2 seems to have happened as soon as the car was parked.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #175 on: December 27, 2012, 10:23:06 PM »
To win immunity, the defense will have to show one of two things: that Zimmerman was not the aggressor, or that he was unable to retreat. I expect the prosecution to contest both.

Beside arguing the implausibility of Zimmerman being unable to rid himself of Martin's 158 lb. frame, they have this from W-6:

FDLE, 3/20, 34:23-35:04
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W-6: And then, if you were the person on the bottom, I'm not sure if he was holding onto the guy on the top, or if he was trying, because it looks like he was trying to get up. From the one point when I do see him, finally, because I only see one guy at first, it looks like the other guy was trying to get up, because, I mean, his back was raised off of the ground at that point. So it looked like he was trying to get up at that point. But, I don't know, I couldn't see his hands. The guy on the bottom, I couldn't see where his hands were. So I don't know if they were on the other guy's sweatshirt, or, if he was, you know, trying to actually push off of him, or anything like that. I couldn't see the other guy's hands.


Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #176 on: December 27, 2012, 11:42:44 PM »
To win immunity, the defense will have to show one of two things: that Zimmerman was not the aggressor, or that he was unable to retreat. I expect the prosecution to contest both.

Beside arguing the implausibility of Zimmerman being unable to rid himself of Martin's 158 lb. frame, they have this from W-6:

FDLE, 3/20, 34:23-35:04

I don't see what's implausible about the somewhat out-of-shape Zimmerman not being able to get Martin off him, and I'm not sure why you think W6's comments are evidence that he could. W6 says Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Do you think it's plausible that Zimmerman wanted Martin to be sitting on him? If not, why was Martin still on top if Zimmerman could have gotten his 158 lb. frame off him?

Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #177 on: December 28, 2012, 12:24:12 AM »
At the risk of contracting diabetes from its cloying prose, I reread the Esquire article on Martin, and noticed some remarks from some high-school football players he'd played against that relate to nomatter_nevermind's comment and my reply:

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He was a cool kid. He didn't start no trouble.

He was a good linebacker. Like, if you hit against him—

—Your helmet comin' off.

I remember the first time he hit me. I started cryin' like, "I ain't playin' with him no more."

Trayvon said, Toughen up.

He blitzed me. I didn't want him to blitz no more.

F'real.

I stay out of his way. I try to trip him, but it ain't working.

They aren't exactly in harmony with the family's tales of a frail string bean.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #178 on: December 28, 2012, 12:55:42 AM »
I don't see what's implausible about the somewhat out-of-shape Zimmerman not being able to get Martin off him

Is there evidence for Zimmerman being 'somewhat out-of-shape'?

Zimmerman's medical records are a part of the evidence that I have to admit I've neglected.

A commenter on Leatherman's blog has said that Zimmerman had a gym membership, but she couldn't remember where she heard that.

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I'm not sure why you think W6's comments are evidence that he could.

I don't. That's not what I said.

W-6's comments are a separate point, which in conjunction with the other supports a theory that it was Zimmerman preventing Martin from escaping.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #179 on: December 28, 2012, 01:33:39 AM »
At the risk of contracting diabetes from its cloying prose, I reread the Esquire article on Martin, and noticed some remarks from some high-school football players he'd played against

Quote
He was a good linebacker.

The same article quotes 'Uncle Stephen' saying Martin played 'defensive end', a more likely position for his build. It would also suggest he was a good runner.

On the other side of the scale, another player would be more likely to know what position Martin played.

 

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