Author Topic: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?  (Read 83634 times)

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Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #180 on: December 28, 2012, 02:09:55 AM »
W-6's comments are a separate point, which in conjunction with the other supports a theory that it was Zimmerman preventing Martin from escaping.

How are W6's comments evidence that Zimmerman was preventing Martin from escaping? In response to being questioned specifically about what each person was doing with their hands, W6 said:

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And then, if you were the person on the bottom, I'm not sure if he was holding onto the guy on the top, or if he was trying, because it looks like he was trying to get up.

If you interpret the bolded "he" as referring to Martin, it does sound like Zimmerman may have been trying to prevent Martin's escape. If you interpret "he" as referring to Zimmerman, W6 seems to be saying he couldn't see Zimmerman's hands to tell whether he was trying to hold on to Martin, but his actions of trying to get up were inconsistent with that. From the surrounding context, "he" clearly refers to Zimmerman. For instance, W6 says he thought the person was trying to get up because his back was off the ground. That could only fit the one on the bottom, Zimmerman.  I would hazard a guess to say W6 had heard stories that Zimmerman was trying to detain Martin, and had that in mind, basically saying that's now how it looked to him. In any case, nothing else W6 says in the interview supports the somewhat absurd notion that Zimmerman had Martin right where he wanted him: on top, with Zimmerman on his back.

Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #181 on: December 28, 2012, 02:52:19 AM »
... on top, with Zimmerman on his [Zimmerman's] back.

After mentioning W6's ambiguous pronoun reference, I add a worse example.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #182 on: December 28, 2012, 03:27:28 AM »
How are W6's comments evidence that Zimmerman was preventing Martin from escaping?

They aren't. They support an argument that the possibility cannot be excluded. That's enough for the immunity hearing, where the defense has the burden of proof.

I think this point will also be part of the prosecution's effort to get beyond reasonable doubt. It will take some time to explain that, to bring in all the pieces of the puzzle and discuss how they fit together. I'm working on it.

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If you interpret the bolded "he" as referring to Martin

I don't.

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In any case, nothing else W6 says in the interview supports the somewhat absurd notion that Zimmerman had Martin right where he wanted him

Straw man.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #183 on: December 28, 2012, 08:22:26 AM »
They aren't. They support an argument that the possibility cannot be excluded. That's enough for the immunity hearing, where the defense has the burden of proof.

I think this point will also be part of the prosecution's effort to get beyond reasonable doubt. It will take some time to explain that, to bring in all the pieces of the puzzle and discuss how they fit together. I'm working on it.

I don't.

Straw man.

How do you figure it is a straw man?  W6 was very consistent with his original statement to LE.  He always had Zimmerman on the bottom of the altercation.  Zimmerman has the injuries to support, not only his statement that he was assaulted, but also supports the statements by W6.

The few places that W6 seemed to backtrack a little came from an interview that lasted around 4-5 hours.  If you have never had the honor of sitting on the other side of the table during one of those, I don't think you would understand.

The person doing the questioning is always the adversary.  You can wrap that pig up with ribbons and bows and it is still going to be a well-decorated pig.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #184 on: December 28, 2012, 09:26:25 AM »
The few places that W6 seemed to backtrack a little came from an interview that lasted around 4-5 hours.  If you have never had the honor of sitting on the other side of the table during one of those, I don't think you would understand.

The person doing the questioning is always the adversary.  You can wrap that pig up with ribbons and bows and it is still going to be a well-decorated pig.

The interview by John Bachelor of the FDLE and Jim Post of the SAO lasted 45 minutes.  Bachelor is a pro investigator.  Just compare him with BDLR.   I just wish he probed more into the echo-y yell business.  Please post some confirmation that there was a 4-5 interview of W6.

Offline Kyreth

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #185 on: December 28, 2012, 09:36:31 AM »
They aren't. They support an argument that the possibility cannot be excluded. That's enough for the immunity hearing, where the defense has the burden of proof.

No, it's not enough.  The defense has the burden of proof, but only to a preponderance of the evidence.  The state would have to show that the other scenario is at least equally likely, just being possible isn't enough.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #186 on: December 28, 2012, 09:46:05 AM »
No, it's not enough.  The defense has the burden of proof, but only to a preponderance of the evidence.  The state would have to show that the other scenario is at least equally likely, just being possible isn't enough.

Anybody have real world experience of not being able to get off a person on the bottom of you who was holding onto your shirt?  I assume you didn't mind getting the shirt ripped.   ;D  I think the prosecution has to use the hypothesis that Zimmerman had his gun out and Martin was trying to prevent him from firing it.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 09:49:27 AM by RickyJim »

Offline SuzieTampa

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #187 on: December 28, 2012, 09:51:08 AM »
NM_NM, do you think GZ is guilty of manslaughter, at least? I'm just curious.

Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #188 on: December 28, 2012, 12:40:40 PM »
Straw man.

I don't think that's quite true. Your theory seems to be that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, Martin was trying to get off, but Zimmerman was holding him down. If Zimmerman didn't think the situation was to his advantage, he'd let go.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #189 on: December 28, 2012, 12:50:35 PM »
In any case, nothing else W6 says in the interview supports the somewhat absurd notion that Zimmerman had Martin right where he wanted him: on top, with Zimmerman on his back.

Straw man.

How do you figure it is a straw man?

I didn't make the claim that was implicitly attributed to me.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #190 on: December 28, 2012, 01:00:56 PM »
The few places that W6 seemed to backtrack a little . . . The person doing the questioning is always the adversary.

I think it is insulting to W-6 to imply that he has an agenda. I see him as a very thoughtful and conscientious witness, trying very hard to report what he observed accurately, and to separate out his opinions and inferences from his observations. I expect him to be one of the most credible witnesses in the case.

I suspect the prosecution is digging hard for dirt on him. But if they can't discredit him, they will make the best they can of his testimony.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #191 on: December 28, 2012, 01:11:53 PM »
They support an argument that the possibility cannot be excluded. That's enough for the immunity hearing, where the defense has the burden of proof.

The defense has the burden of proof, but only to a preponderance of the evidence. 

That's correct. Apologies for careless wording.

I think the prosecution will argue that the two points together, that Martin was a comparative lightweight, and that W-6 couldn't see that Zimmerman wasn't gripping Martin's sweatshirt, add up to at least an equal likelihood that Zimmerman was restraining Martin.

I'm not saying I would buy that myself. If I were a prosecutor, I would argue it.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #192 on: December 28, 2012, 01:39:26 PM »
I assume you didn't mind getting the shirt ripped.   ;D 

Sweatshirts don't tear that easily, in my experience.

W-6 only saw a few seconds of the struggle. Zimmerman could have been restraining Martin with wrestling holds for most of it, then grabbed his shirt because he had almost slipped away.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #193 on: December 28, 2012, 01:44:10 PM »
If Zimmerman didn't think the situation was to his advantage, he'd let go.

I do not understand the idiom 'right where he wanted him' to mean the least bad of two undesirable situations.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #194 on: December 28, 2012, 02:04:13 PM »
NM_NM, do you think GZ is guilty of manslaughter, at least?

No.

 

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