Author Topic: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?  (Read 103320 times)

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Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #195 on: December 28, 2012, 02:07:16 PM »
I do not understand the idiom 'right where he wanted him' to mean the least bad of two undesirable situations.

If someone were sitting on top of me, I'd consider not having them on top of me a very desirable alternative. I'd have to have a pretty strong reason to not let them get off.

I think it's incorrect to believe that if W6 testimony doesn't exclude the possibility that Zimmerman was holding Martin down, that the evidence for and against that hypothesis balances out. It's hard to believe Zimmerman would try to keep Martin on top of him. Therefore, without a pretty good reason to believe he was, the logical conclusion is that he wasn't.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #196 on: December 28, 2012, 03:13:13 PM »
It's hard to believe Zimmerman would try to keep Martin on top of him.

You keep pounding the same straw man. It's not that Zimmerman would have wanted Martin on top of him. It's that keeping Martin from escaping would have been a higher priority than reversing their positions. Zimmerman might have been trying to do that as well, which W-6 interpreted as his trying to sit up.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #197 on: December 28, 2012, 03:48:02 PM »
I remember years ago on another forum, someone mentioned the whole "straw man" bit--and thereafter there were a couple of people who became so infatuated with it they'd respond to almost every argument with "straw man!".

A person honestly taking what your words meant when they were read is not guilty of 'pounding the same straw man'. If you didn't mean it that way--than you should probably look to your own phrasing--because apparently that's how it read to MJW, DFH and to me.


Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #198 on: December 28, 2012, 04:39:04 PM »
You keep pounding the same straw man. It's not that Zimmerman would have wanted Martin on top of him. It's that keeping Martin from escaping would have been a higher priority than reversing their positions. Zimmerman might have been trying to do that as well, which W-6 interpreted as his trying to sit up.

Well, if keeping Martin from escaping was a higher priority than reversing their positions, then Zimmerman wanted Martin on top of him because he preferred it to the alternative of allowing Martin to escape. I don't see why, given the ease which you feel Zimmerman could have overpowered Martin's 158 lb. frame, Zimmerman didn't have the best of both worlds: Martin underneath him, and unable to escape.

If Martin actually were trying to escape, wouldn't it have been obvious to W6? I think he'd notice Martin straining to get away, and Zimmerman trying to prevent it.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #199 on: December 28, 2012, 07:24:19 PM »
given the ease which you feel Zimmerman could have overpowered Martin's 158 lb. frame

I haven't said anything about what I 'feel' on this point. I'm talking about what the prosecution might argue, which is the subject of the thread.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #200 on: December 28, 2012, 08:09:20 PM »
I think the prosecution has to use the hypothesis that Zimmerman had his gun out and Martin was trying to prevent him from firing it.

Do you mean for the time W-6 was watching? Or do you mean they have to argue that Zimmerman displaying the gun was the reason for the struggle and the screaming?

Offline FromBelow

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #201 on: December 28, 2012, 08:20:07 PM »
The idea that the guy that was just punched in the face and was on the bottom would want to keep his attacker on top is very hard to swallow. Besides, with GZ's hands occupied holding TM in place I would have expected far more damage to GZ's face as TM would certainly have let loose. He obviously didn't have any aversion to throwing hard punches and would be especially motivated to throw many.

Personally I think that after the first real punch and getting on top, TM was more interested in GZ's fear and dominating GZ. I think his subsequent punches and actions were more intended to aggravate GZ's pain and create fear than actually do a lot more damage.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #202 on: December 28, 2012, 08:47:52 PM »
Do you mean for the time W-6 was watching? Or do you mean they have to argue that Zimmerman displaying the gun was the reason for the struggle and the screaming?
I can't see any way for the prosecution to assert Trayvon was screaming unless they say Zimmerman had his gun out, at least for the duration of the screams.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #203 on: December 28, 2012, 08:53:49 PM »
I am trying to pin down the first time Zimmerman made the claim that the reason for his on foot trip from his car to RVC was to find an address on RVC.  So far it seems to be the walkthrough on the afternoon of the 27th was his first mention of that.  Am I correct?

Offline FromBelow

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #204 on: December 28, 2012, 09:02:43 PM »
I am trying to pin down the first time Zimmerman made the claim that the reason for his on foot trip from his car to RVC was to find an address on RVC.  So far it seems to be the walkthrough on the afternoon of the 27th was his first mention of that.  Am I correct?

He mentions it to Singleton the night of the shooting.

Quote
Zimmerman: I got out of my vehicle to look at this house’s address, and see if there was a sign there.
Singleton: OK.
Zimmerman: There wasn’t.
Singleton: OK.
Zimmerman: So I walked through the dog walk to see if there was a sign here
Singleton: OK
Zimmerman: or an address that I could make out easier.

https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=996

Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #205 on: December 28, 2012, 10:42:57 PM »
I haven't said anything about what I 'feel' on this point. I'm talking about what the prosecution might argue, which is the subject of the thread.

My comment was intended to point out a problem with arguing Zimmerman could have gotten out from under Martin if he'd really wanted to. Perhaps I should have attributed the "feeling" to the hypothetical prosecutor instead of you, but my point would have been the same: if Zimmerman had such a physical advantage over Martin, why did he stay on the bottom, and why was he on the bottom in the first place?


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #206 on: December 29, 2012, 01:39:08 AM »
I am trying to pin down the first time Zimmerman made the claim that the reason for his on foot trip from his car to RVC was to find an address on RVC. 

He mentions it to Singleton the night of the shooting.

I think this is the first time Zimmerman said explicitly that he was looking for a street sign or address on RVC. His first recounting of this part of the story is ambiguous on that point.

2/29-1, 12:28-13:21
Quote
Zimmerman: I didn't know the name of the street, or where he went. So I got out of my car, to look for a street sign, and to see if I could see where he cut through so that I could tell the police [crosstalk].

Singleton: So after he circled your car he disappeared again?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: OK.

Zimmerman: Then, dispatcher told me "Where are you?" And I said "I'm trying to find out where he went." And, he said "We don't need you to do that." And I said "OK". He said "We already have a police officer en route." And I said "Alright." And I, I had gone where, through the dog walk where I normally walk my dog, and, walked back through to my street, the street that loops around. And he said "We already have a police officer on the way." So I said "OK." I told, they said, "Would you like a police officer to meet you?" And I said, "Yes." And I told them where my car was, and the make and the model.


Zimmerman indicated that he had reached RVC by the time the dispatcher told him he didn't need to find/follow Martin. That would be over 250 feet in 15 seconds or less, at least 17 feet per second.

In the reenactment, Zimmerman seemed to be about to say the same thing, then corrected himself and indicated he was still walking east on the crosswalk at that time. (6:09-42)

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #207 on: December 29, 2012, 09:50:27 AM »
In the reenactment video, at about the 5 minute point, Zimmerman and the investigator have just left the SUV.  As they face the cut through, the houses to the left of the cut though have their back side showing while the houses on the right show the front where the addresses would be.  Zimmerman just ignores that and gives the BS about why he had to go to RVC for an address.  This is from a transcript with commentary:
Quote
Zimmerman...I was on the phone with non-emergency and I started walking down this way, and because I didn't see a street sign here but I knew if I went straight through that that's Retreat View Circle and I can give them an address. And he said just give me the address of the house you are in front of. And there's no address because this is the back of the houses
(Now he is saying this whille his back to the other townhouses that are on the other side of the sidewalk, which IMO he is doing on purpose because if you walk past the side walk, those are the FRONT of those townhouses which he could have easily gone to for an "address and I'm sure the Investigator took note of that)

Why in subsequent interviews, Serino didn't crucify Zimmerman over this gibberish, remains a mystery.  The even bigger joke is that Zimmerman didn't even need to get a street name or address.  The directions that he, while still in the truck, gave the dispatcher would have gotten the police to him.
Quote
1:45:65 - When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you'd – would
go past the clubhouse— [he's trying to explain his location on Twin Trees, southeast of the clubhouse,
not at the clubhouse itself].
1:54:26 - Okay, it's on the left-hand side from the clubhouse?
1:57:62 - No, you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left. Uh, yeah, you go straight
in, don't turn and make a left –
  One gets the layout from the 5th map in the NY Times overview.  The dispatcher didn't ask for the address where his car was parked until over a minute after Zimmerman had exited the car.  In the walkthrough, Zimmerman is trying to retroactively use that question to justify his going into the cut through to the investigators. 
 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 09:56:57 AM by RickyJim »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #208 on: December 29, 2012, 11:18:55 AM »
One would think the prosecution would try to push, as much as possible, that Zimmerman's lying about relatively minor matters like why he got out of the car, implies that he lied about the major things like Martin initiating an unprovoked physical attack on him.  Although we may dismiss such reasoning, apparently even judges make such leaps.  I have never seen any explanation why Judge Lester characterized the evidence against Zimmerman as "strong".  Could it be just an extension of his anger over what he thought were Zimmerman's deliberate lies about what funds he had available? 

O'Mara said, "We will have to deal with them.", when he referred to the contradictions in various Zimmerman accounts of events.  If somehow he is forced to have Zimmerman testify, will he lay down the law to him about continuing to insist that he got out of the car to get an address for the dispatcher?  How bad would it be for Zimmerman to just say, "I lied.  I was feeling so guilty about not returning to the car when the dispatcher suggested I do that."?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 11:21:40 AM by RickyJim »

Offline Kyreth

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #209 on: December 29, 2012, 11:23:28 AM »
In the reenactment video, at about the 5 minute point, Zimmerman and the investigator have just left the SUV.  As they face the cut through, the houses to the left of the cut though have their back side showing while the houses on the right show the front where the addresses would be.  Zimmerman just ignores that and gives the BS about why he had to go to RVC for an address. 

That part I don't think is nearly as big of an issue as it seems.  George seemed to have a problem with getting ahead of himself, and trying to relate the narrative around the moments that stood out the most.

In that case, George had just gotten ahead past where he admitted following, and once George remembered it near RVC, corrected himself, with an "Oh yeah, back there is where dispatcher asked if I was following and I said yes" (paraphrased).

So, the Defense shouldn't have any issue explaining that George got out, followed to near the T, got advised not to follow, and it was AFTER that when the dispatcher asked for an address, and of course, at that point there was no address in view (he was behind the houses by the T), and told dispatcher that it's a cut through so he didn't know an address, at which point he decided to go to RVC.

 

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