Author Topic: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?  (Read 61435 times)

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Offline RickyJim

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Re: Ricky Jim's scerio discussion
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2012, 08:26:57 AM »
The testimony of Witness 6 is inconsistent with TM trying to wrest a gun from GZ.

If he was trying to deflect the gun on disarm GZ  any person in Martin's position would focus on  grabbing the gun hand / wrist / arm with both hands with all force he could muster.
A trial would be a miscarriage of justice

Could you be more specific on the inconsistency with Witness 6?  The transcript of his FDLE interview is here.  On page 41 and 42 this witness says
Quote
I mean he could have still been hitting him or he could have been trying to hold him down, you know, I really can't tell you at that point.
Quote
Um, but thinking back on it, you know, it could just been him trying to hold him down, too, and keep him secure.

Offline leftwig

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2012, 09:14:09 AM »
Opinion. I doubt that will be admissible.

If Zimmerman testifies at the immunity hearing, I think anything damaging he says on cross will be admissible at the trial, as a voluntary statement against interest.

I would think the officer issuing the capias request would be allowed to testify about the how or why he came to the conclusion to issue the arrest.  I imagine the prosecution will ask him questions about his opinion of what led to his conclusion of a manslaughter charge and the defense will ask questions about statements that seem to contradict that charge.

I agree, if it were a general question to any law enforcement officer on the scene or involved in the case, but I would think Serino would be allowed to testify on the statement given he issue the capias.

IANAL, but I thought I recalled reading early on that if GZ testifies at the immunity hearing what he says can be brought up at trial only if he also testifies at trial.  I do not know the pertinent statute and I imagine a lawyer familiar with immunity hearings could provide a quick answer.

Offline leftwig

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2012, 09:24:21 AM »
I am trying to come up with the state's summation at the immunity hearing.  I will make the assumption that all they need to do is show that the evidence that Zimmerman shot in self defense is no better than in equipoise.  In particular, they don't have to present any evidence of malicious intent or bias on Zimmerman's part or whatever would justify a second degree murder charge at trial.  If I am wrong about that I am sure I will find out soon enough.  ;)  I am also leaving DeeDee out of this since at this moment it is unclear if she will be called.  I also assume that the jury will be ignorant of what the prosecution claimed and presented at the immunity hearing.  Imagine the following in 36pt, red, all caps, bold, italic and underlined in order to better simulate Bernie's presentation.  ;D

Your honor, first I want to point out that it was at least as likely that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor as it was Martin.  Zimmerman left the safety of his truck shortly after he says Martin circled it with hostile intent.  He tells us that he was so fearful of confrontation that he wouldn't open the window part way to explain his business to Martin.  But still when the police dispatcher suggested he return to his vehicle, he kept going through the cut through to Retreat View Circle to get an address he says, for the police to meet him at, yet he never got the address and finally told the dispatcher to have the police call him when they arrived.  This clearly shows he wasn't concerned so much for his safety.  The hunt was on and he smelled meat.  As he was getting out of his truck, he told the dispatcher that Martin was running for the back entrance.  If he really wanted a good view of that he could have quickly driven close to the back entrance to head Martin off and more easily given the police directions where to meet him.  No, your honor, Zimmerman was so blinded by rage that another asshole would get away that he got out of his truck with his gun in his jacket pocket.  He told us that when Martin appeared out of the darkness, he searched for his cellphone to call 911 which he claimed was in his jacket pocket.  What he was really reaching for was the gun.  How the heck was he going to get a 911 call in with this guy he claimed he was in fear of close by?  Trayvon being at the "T" at that moment, when he could have been home, doesn't show aggressive intent on his part; he may really have wanted to know why he was being followed.  Thus we argue that the initial aggression was by Zimmerman.

In the following fight, your honor, the evidence is certainly in equipoise as to who is screaming for help.  The FBI says it can't be scientifically determined and the relatives and friends all say it is their man crying for his life.  Yes, Zimmerman was injured but not Martin, before the fatal shot.  We feel that indicates that Zimmerman was so intent on holding onto his gun, trying for the fatal shot, that he didn't defend himself.  He knew he wasn't in mortal danger from Martin.  He had the gun and his injuries were much less than he claimed later.  The best eyewitness, W#6, said he couldn't tell whether Martin was raining down blows MMA style or simply trying to hold down Zimmerman's wrists.  Thus your honor, it is not more likely than not that Zimmerman fired in self defense and this case should be decided by a jury.

I think this is pretty much what the prosecution is going to say at the immunity hearing.  The problem for them is that the defense gets their say as well and I think the details left out in the prosecutions argument you made swings the evidence in GZ's favor.  For example, I can't imagine a judge looking at the evidence and coming to the conclusion that its no more likely that it was GZ screaming on the 911 call than TM.   The weight of the evidence is surely in GZ's favor on that one. 

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2012, 09:36:44 AM »
I think this is pretty much what the prosecution is going to say at the immunity hearing.  The problem for them is that the defense gets their say as well and I think the details left out in the prosecutions argument you made swings the evidence in GZ's favor.  For example, I can't imagine a judge looking at the evidence and coming to the conclusion that its no more likely that it was GZ screaming on the 911 call than TM.   The weight of the evidence is surely in GZ's favor on that one.

Why?  The defense has more friends and relatives who will swear it is Zimmerman screaming than the prosecution has that will swear it is Martin?  I like to contrast the two statements:
1. It couldn't be Zimmerman screaming because he wouldn't stop suddenly at the instant of the shot.
2. It couldn't be Martin screaming because he would have said, "Help he has a gun" to W#6 instead of just "Help".
To me, both are unverifiable BS.  I think the only chance of weighting the evidence in GZ's favor will be if W#6 's echo opinion is checked out on location by an audio expert.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2012, 09:51:03 AM »
One argument the defense could use to counter a prosecution claim that Zimmerman had his gun out before he said he did is that Zimmerman would have fired it early to attract attention, even though it wasn't aimed at Martin.  I don't know anything about Zimmerman's gun.  Could it be fired repeatedly?  How many bullets did it carry?

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2012, 09:55:01 AM »
Why? The defense has more friends and relatives who will swear it is Zimmerman screaming than the prosecution has that will swear it is Martin?  I like to contrast the two statements:
1. It couldn't be Zimmerman screaming because he wouldn't stop suddenly at the instant of the shot.
2. It couldn't be Martin screaming because he would have said, "Help he has a gun" to W#6 instead of just "Help".
To me, both are unverifiable BS.  I think the only chance of weighting the evidence in GZ's favor will be if W#6 's echo opinion is checked out on location by an audio expert.
Why? I believe anyone with a subjective opinion would have to weight heavily the fact that Tracy denied the voice as his son, going into the hearing there will be two LEO's swearing to that fact. Personally I could never get beyond that in questioning the voice.

re: #1 the scream does not end at the instant of the shot... long ago it was timed out and AJ showed the scream ended before the shot is fired, to me that means once the decision and action began the need for screaming ended.

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2012, 09:57:28 AM »
<snip> I don't know anything about Zimmerman's gun.  Could it be fired repeatedly?  How many bullets did it carry?
Yes it is a semi-automatic, it is a 7+1 config and it was loaded with all eight possible rounds; interesting aside... although Zimmerman did not continue to fire... nothing stopped him from doing so the gun will fire with each pull of the trigger.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 10:00:48 AM by AghastInFL »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2012, 10:16:23 AM »
Yes it is a semi-automatic, it is a 7+1 config and it was loaded with all eight possible rounds; interesting aside... although Zimmerman did not continue to fire... nothing stopped him from doing so the gun will fire with each pull of the trigger.

Hmm, I think you are giving a counter argument for the prosecution.  Since Zimmerman only fired once, that shows he was waiting for an opportunity to plug Martin in the heart and desisted once he knew he did.  Z's statement that he thought at first he might have missed seems in conflict with firing only one shot.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2012, 10:24:38 AM »
Yes it is a semi-automatic, it is a 7+1 config and it was loaded with all eight possible rounds;

See p. 20 of the May 17 (184 page) release.

The gun is a Kel-Tec PF-9.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2012, 10:43:32 AM »
Are you saying anytime the defense shows a contradiction between DeeDee's account of what she thought Travyon told her and other evidence, the prosecution rebuttal will be to say only racists see a contradiction? 

I'm thinking mainly about the timeline problem.

So far, the prosecution has shown no sign of backing off the story in the charging affidavit, in which Martin was trying to get home and Zimmerman caught up with him. I think they may stick with that story, and make noise about racism to distract attention when anyone suggests doing the math. Any suggestion that Martin doubled back or lay in wait is 'stereotyping'.

It will help that many people just don't like math.

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2012, 10:46:16 AM »
Hmm, I think you are giving a counter argument for the prosecution.  Since Zimmerman only fired once, that shows he was waiting for an opportunity to plug Martin in the heart and desisted once he knew he did.  Z's statement that he thought at first he might have missed seems in conflict with firing only one shot.

I would argue Zimmerman was more likely disoriented by the report and then use testimony from W-13 arrival on the scene and GZ request to help subdue TM to counter premeditation or confidence in a single killshot.

I do not intend to be callus or insensitive to the current tragic news cycle but as has been shown a truly depraved mind at work fires multiple times regardless of placement, there is a common term used to describe this action "double tap".
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 10:48:07 AM by AghastInFL »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2012, 10:54:57 AM »
Zimmerman would have fired it early to attract attention

That would endanger bystanders.

That's also a reason for using hollow points and shooting center mass, contrary to Mary Cutcher's vapid suggestion that Zimmerman should have tried to shoot Martin in the leg, like some action movie hero.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2012, 11:30:29 AM »
It seems to me that Zimmerman's actions, beginning with the decision to get out of the truck on Feb. 26 7:12PM EST and continuing to the present, defy characterization as what a logical person would do in a particular situation.  That is why I much prefer physical evidence in this case to psychological analysis.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2012, 12:39:57 PM »
Why?  The defense has more friends and relatives who will swear it is Zimmerman screaming than the prosecution has that will swear it is Martin?

Is your assumption that one family is full of liars? They would have to swear this under oath.

So far Tracy has denied it was TM screaming, and during an interview Jahvaris says he wasn't sure it was TM screaming. He's recorded on video saying it. I see no such uncertainty amongst those of George's family/friends that have weighed in on who the screamer was.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2012, 12:55:01 PM »
Z's statement that he thought at first he might have missed seems in conflict with firing only one shot.

Reenactment, 10:39-51
Quote
Zimmerman: And I didn't think I hit him, because he sat up, and he said "Ugh, you got me." "You got it," "You got me," "You got it," something like that. So I thought he was just saying, "I know you have a gun now, I heard it, I'm giving up."

Similar statement in the CVSA, 32:59-33:17, 6:51:35-54.

 

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