Author Topic: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?  (Read 67298 times)

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Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2012, 12:58:21 PM »
Is your assumption that one family is full of liars? They would have to swear this under oath.

So far Tracy has denied it was TM screaming, and during an interview Jahvaris says he wasn't sure it was TM screaming. He's recorded on video saying it. I see no such uncertainty amongst those of George's family/friends that have weighed in on who the screamer was.

I am sure somebody here can help me out on this.  Doesn't cousin Steven (Booby) Fulton or Martin say that he would swear on a thousand bibles that it was Trayvon screaming?  I think it was in his interview in one of the discovery documents.  It is not my assumption that anybody is lying about their identification of the screams.  My belief is that for emotional reasons they have all convinced themselves that they can do the identification when it really is impossible.  If the FBI says it is impossible to do with their equipment, what more information is in the tape that the relatives can use to make the identification but the FBI can't?

Offline FromBelow

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2012, 01:11:25 PM »
I am sure somebody here can help me out on this.  Doesn't cousin Steven (Booby) Fulton or Martin say that he would swear on a thousand bibles that it was Trayvon screaming?  I think it was in his interview in one of the discovery documents.  It is not my assumption that anybody is lying about their identification of the screams.  My belief is that for emotional reasons they have all convinced themselves that they can do the identification when it really is impossible.  If the FBI says it is impossible to do with their equipment, what more information is in the tape that the relatives can use to make the identification but the FBI can't?

When my speech to text program can transcribe my words without error then we can talk about technology versus human ability.

Offline leftwig

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2012, 01:16:58 PM »
Why?  The defense has more friends and relatives who will swear it is Zimmerman screaming than the prosecution has that will swear it is Martin?  I like to contrast the two statements:
1. It couldn't be Zimmerman screaming because he wouldn't stop suddenly at the instant of the shot.
2. It couldn't be Martin screaming because he would have said, "Help he has a gun" to W#6 instead of just "Help".
To me, both are unverifiable BS.  I think the only chance of weighting the evidence in GZ's favor will be if W#6 's echo opinion is checked out on location by an audio expert.

1.  This is a figment of your imagination.  The screaming does not stop with the gunshot.  The last scream ended before the shot was fired.  Also, a screaming person wouldn't stop abruptly when shot.  IT would trail off.
2.  I do think the content of the screaming is telling, though I don't think any specific conclusion can be drawn.  People under duress aren't going to follow any set pattern. 

There is no eye witness that identifies TM uttering any words.  W-6 was certain it was the guy on the bottom calling for help, but under strenuous questioning, admitted that he couldn't see any lips moving because it was too dark.  Even if you completely discount that he has credibility on the source of the screams, his statement matches GZ's claim that he called out to W6.  Not sure how he would have known W6 saw anything if he had been the one on top with his back turned (as described by W6).   W-6 seems pretty credible to me and his statements clearly tilt in GZ's favor on this point.  Austin also stated to police he saw a man on the ground in red yelling for help.   Then there is TM's father denying that it was his sons voice screaming.   The defense will put on several officers testifying to this effect and it will be interesting to see if they put Tracy on the stand to offer an explanation on that.  IT would open him up to questioning on other events/actions by the prosecution.   Add  the physical wounds sustained by GZ and you have a body of evidence that tilts in his favor as to who was screaming out for help. 

I think we have pretty close to a standard beyond a reasonable doubt that it was GZ screaming for help.  I don't think there is anyway he doesn't overcome the preponderance of the evidence at least on this point.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2012, 01:21:40 PM »
Doesn't cousin Steven (Booby) Fulton or Martin say that he would swear on a thousand bibles that it was Trayvon screaming? 

P. 9 of the July 12 (284 page) release.

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When asked about the calls for help he said without a doubt "on a stack of Bibles" that it was Trayvon's voice.

The 'thousand bibles' version sounds familiar, but I can't place it.

Offline leftwig

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2012, 01:34:18 PM »
It seems to me that Zimmerman's actions, beginning with the decision to get out of the truck on Feb. 26 7:12PM EST and continuing to the present, defy characterization as what a logical person would do in a particular situation.  That is why I much prefer physical evidence in this case to psychological analysis.

I disagree.  He was a watch person and clearly showed an interest in neighborhood safety.  He's witnessed suspicious people and called it in before and they got away as he sat idly by.  He knows of at least one instance where a woman was at home with her child and thieves entered the house.  His wife is often at home alone.  I think all of these are reasons that would prompt a logical person to want to get out of their vehicle to be the eyes of the police and help them locate TM.


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2012, 01:41:50 PM »
Then there is TM's father denying that it was his sons voice screaming. The defense will put on several officers testifying to this effect

Who beside Serino and Irwin?

Is it known when Irwin first went on the record on this?

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and it will be interesting to see if they put Tracy on the stand to offer an explanation on that.

I don't think it will be admissible except to impeach Tracy Martin if he testifies.

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IT would open him up to questioning on other events/actions by the prosecution.   

What would those be?

If there is evidence that Tracy Martin has knowledge of prosecutorial misconduct, I would think he could be called for that reason. I don't see what one thing has to do with the other.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2012, 01:48:44 PM »
The 'thousand bibles' version sounds familiar, but I can't place it.

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In the batch of evidence released Thursday, investigators asked Martin's cousin if he could identify the voice on those calls.
"When asked about the calls for help he said without a doubt 'on a stack of Bibles' that it was Trayvon's voice,'" the document states

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/07/12/12701508-prosecutor-releases-another-round-of-zimmerman-evidence?lite

EDIT: Is this the same cousin that said he met Dee Dee at the funeral? Ronquavis Fulton?

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/04/02/trayvons-cousin-its-him-screaming?clusterId=367#videoplayer
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 01:59:23 PM by FromBelow »

Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2012, 01:50:44 PM »
I would think the officer issuing the capias request would be allowed to testify about the how or why he came to the conclusion to issue the arrest.

I'd be surprised if such testimony were allowed. What is the purpose of the testimony, other than presenting the officer as an expert witness on Zimmerman's guilt? As the court said in Farley v. State, 324 So. 2d 662 (Fla. 4th DCA 1975): "The opinion of a witness as to the guilt or innocence of an accused person is not admissible in evidence." I think it would be an especially egregious example, since the witnesses would be telling the jury how they should analyze and weigh the evidence.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2012, 01:54:00 PM »
I disagree.  He was a watch person and clearly showed an interest in neighborhood safety.  He's witnessed suspicious people and called it in before and they got away as he sat idly by.  He knows of at least one instance where a woman was at home with her child and thieves entered the house.  His wife is often at home alone.  I think all of these are reasons that would prompt a logical person to want to get out of their vehicle to be the eyes of the police and help them locate TM.

This matter has recently been covered.  The logical thing to do, as unitron pointed out, would be to drive his truck towards the back gate since Z himself stated that was the direction M was running.  He could have more easily told the dispatcher to have the cops meet him there and along the way pointed his headlights into the dogpath from its south end.  He told Serino and Singleton that he didn't identify himself to Martin when the latter was circling his car out of fear.  Yet right after he saw Martin turn right into the dogpath, he goes right by it on his way to RVC, to get an address he says, which of course, he never got.  And he tells Hannity he has no regrets about getting out of the car.  All examples of a logical thinker?  ???
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 02:04:30 PM by RickyJim »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2012, 02:02:23 PM »
He told Serino and Singleton that he didn't identify himself to Martin when the latter was circling his car out of fear. 

That was in accordance with the Neighborhood Watch guidelines provided by the Sanford PD.

It is said that some NW programs to it differently, but the materials provided to Zimmerman say to avoid any contact with suspicious persons. Wendy Dorival confirmed in her FDLE interview that her oral presentation was the same. Citations in this thread.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2012, 02:15:38 PM »
I don't think it will be admissible except to impeach Tracy Martin if he testifies.

Come to think of it, there's no 'if'. Tracy Martin isn't a defendant. He has to testify. The defense will call him in the immunity hearing.

ETA: My understanding is that Tracy Martin's present story is that the told the police that he didn't know if the voice is Trayvon's or not, then later decided that it is.

The defense will call Tracy, and ask the questions that will elicit whatever his story is on that day. Unless he has conformed it to the SPD officers, those officers will then be called to impeach.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 02:26:25 PM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2012, 02:21:59 PM »
There is a reason that Trayvon Martin's family hasn't released an exemplar of his voice, IMO.  It has to be out there.  Sybrina Fulton said that she bring herself to call his cell number because hearing his voice cause her duress.

Can MOM hear that recording, if it hasn't been scrubbed?  He has access to the phone records by now, right?  If it is still there, can he, through his experts, make his own exemplar of it for comparison?

I can't imagine they would erase that recording of their son.

Tracy Martin on the stand would be interesting but to me, I am more interested in the words of Sybrina Fulton.

Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2012, 02:44:01 PM »
I can't imagine they would erase that recording of their son.

I can imagine it, but if they did, I think they'd probably be guilty of tampering with evidence (section 918.13).

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2012, 02:51:54 PM »
There is a reason that Trayvon Martin's family hasn't released an exemplar of his voice, IMO.

It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be anything in the discovery to show that any of the investigating agencies ever asked for one. The Martins are on record saying they don't have one because a journalist asked them.

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If it is still there, can he, through his experts, make his own exemplar of it for comparison?

I don't know why not. But the FBI experts had studio samples of Zimmerman's voice actually yelling 'help', and reached no conclusion.

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I can't imagine they would erase that recording of their son.

We've been over this. The authorities have the phone.

I think the Martins would erase it if they could.

From the 7-11 audio it seems like Trayvon had a remarkably deep voice, deeper than Zimmerman's, whose voice I would say is about average for an adult male. But it's hard to tell because of the ambient noise.

If the public could hear a clear sample of Trayvon's voice, it just might blow away all the talk of a screaming young/little boy. At the moment I think that would matter more to the Martins than the sentimental value of the recording. 

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2012, 03:00:37 PM »
The FBI listed the poor quality of the 911 tape and the stressed quality of the yelling voice on it as reasons it could not make a comparison with another exemplar.  They wouldn't be able to make a comparison with one of Trayvon's voice but if Trayvon had a bass voice on it, it would help the defense with the public.

 

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