Author Topic: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?  (Read 63778 times)

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Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2012, 11:18:17 PM »
I realize you said "...except where there is case law applying specifically to Dennis hearings." I just wanted to point out a significant difference (for which there was no case law prior to McDaniel).

Offline unitron

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #91 on: December 19, 2012, 12:32:54 AM »
Didn't the police call 911 from the phone to get the number of the phone? And then someone called the phone back? I could be misremembering, but if not when did this happen and wouldn't the person calling back hear the message or lack of one?

EDIT: Apparently it happened on 3/2/2012. Be interesting to see what the person that called the phone heard. They wouldn't be able to answer w/o the pin, so it would have had to go to voice mail. Although I suppose  they could have hung up after it rang and before it went to voice mail. Still, it would be interesting to find out.

http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2166.msg103684.html#msg103684

The call from Trayvon's phone to 911 happened at about the same time of day, on the same day, as Trayvon's funeral, so it was probably the police dialing 911 with it to prove what the number of the phone was by getting it from 911's Caller ID.

I don't know if it would let them get anything else or not.

Offline unitron

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2012, 12:35:39 AM »
It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be anything in the discovery to show that any of the investigating agencies ever asked for one. The Martins are on record saying they don't have one because a journalist asked them.

I don't know why not. But the FBI experts had studio samples of Zimmerman's voice actually yelling 'help', and reached no conclusion.

We've been over this. The authorities have the phone.

I think the Martins would erase it if they could.

From the 7-11 audio it seems like Trayvon had a remarkably deep voice, deeper than Zimmerman's, whose voice I would say is about average for an adult male. But it's hard to tell because of the ambient noise.

If the public could hear a clear sample of Trayvon's voice, it just might blow away all the talk of a screaming young/little boy. At the moment I think that would matter more to the Martins than the sentimental value of the recording.

Don't people's voices generally go up in pitch when they scream in terror?

It's not like their throat is going to be particularly relaxed under the circumstances.

Offline leftwig

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2012, 09:11:58 AM »
This matter has recently been covered.  The logical thing to do, as unitron pointed out, would be to drive his truck towards the back gate since Z himself stated that was the direction M was running.  He could have more easily told the dispatcher to have the cops meet him there and along the way pointed his headlights into the dogpath from its south end.  He told Serino and Singleton that he didn't identify himself to Martin when the latter was circling his car out of fear.  Yet right after he saw Martin turn right into the dogpath, he goes right by it on his way to RVC, to get an address he says, which of course, he never got.  And he tells Hannity he has no regrets about getting out of the car.  All examples of a logical thinker?  ???

When the dispatcher asked which way Martin ran, GZ says "toward the back entrance", but later as he's walking around talking with the dispatcher along the 'T', he says he doesn't know where TM is.  He has no idea whether he ran "to" the back entrance or not, just that it was the direction he headed.  He could have driven the 300 yards or so to see if TM ran to the back entrance, or he could get out of his vehicle where he was to see where TM ran to.  Both would be logical reactions.    How was he going to point his headlights down the dog path?  Are you suggesting he park perpendicular in the roadway blocking all traffic?  IF GZ drives to the back entrance to cut off TM, wouldn't that be more evidence of a chase or being confrontational than following TM's path to see where he went?  If he was looking to avoid  confrontation and see where TM went, it seems more logical to me he would trail at a safe distance versus driving ahead and cutting off the escape path (assuming he knew exactly where TM was headed).

Why he didn't identify himself to TM has been addressed.  He said he was scared of a confrontation and instructions from police were not to confront suspicious individuals.

Who says he never got an address?  He never gave one to the dispatcher, that is clear, but we don't know whether GZ got one or not.  He wasn't asked whether he got one in any of his questioning that I recall.

I don't recall the referenced quote to Hannity.  I only saw parts of the interview, but my impression from it was he didn't feel like he did anything wrong and without knowing the outcome, wouldn't change anything he did that evening.   

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2012, 09:47:05 AM »
This matter has recently been covered.  The logical thing to do, as unitron pointed out, would be to drive his truck towards the back gate since Z himself stated that was the direction M was running.  He could have more easily told the dispatcher to have the cops meet him there and along the way pointed his headlights into the dogpath from its south end.  He told Serino and Singleton that he didn't identify himself to Martin when the latter was circling his car out of fear.  Yet right after he saw Martin turn right into the dogpath, he goes right by it on his way to RVC, to get an address he says, which of course, he never got.  And he tells Hannity he has no regrets about getting out of the car.  All examples of a logical thinker?  ???

By who's definition of logical, RJ? Yours? By some of your postings here you've kind of outed yourself as someone teetering on the wrong edge of the logical ledge, so to speak. And what's logical for unitron or you isn't logical for someone else--something my Logic professor and I used to go around about. In the same way history is written by the winners, "logic" belongs to those who appoint themselves the arbiters.

And as I've posted before: He goes on Hannity and says something to the effect that he'd take it all back or he'd stay in the car or he'd never have even looked twice at that shadowy figure that rainy night--he's just given the entire world rope to fashion a noose with.

Saying what he said? Pretty logical actually.

Maybe not pretty, not warm, not fuzzy, not postmodern PC America, but pretty logical. And I bet O'Mara drilled it into him too.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2012, 11:18:58 AM »
In the Firefox spellchecker, it's easy to add words to the dictionary. Just right click and choose "Add to Dictionary."

Thanks. That's a handy tip. Why don't they tell us these things when we install the software?

Offline jupchurch

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2012, 11:37:12 AM »
Thanks. That's a handy tip. Why don't they tell us these things when we install the software?

Google Chrome does the same thing. I'm not sure that I could function anymore without a spellchecker.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2012, 12:13:15 PM »
Don't people's voices generally go up in pitch when they scream in terror?

So would Zimmerman's.

If Martin's voice was deeper, how would the scream being high pitched exclude Zimmerman?

No one actually said the voice calling for help sounded high pitched or youthful until days or weeks after the shooting.

Mary Cutcher and Selma Mora told Serino they didn't hear any words.

W-18 told 911 she saw two 'men' wrestling, and then one of 'men' started calling for help. She said the same to Serino that night.

Austin (W-14) told 911, and Serino a few days later, that the man on the ground was the screamer. He is supposed to have told a journalist that he had changed his mind and thought Trayvon was the screamer, but that's not mentioned in the summary of his SAO interview (p. 33 of the July 12, 284 page release).

Cutcher and Mora were paraded on TV, saying they thought a 'little boy' was crying, and not mentioning that they didn't even hear the calls for help. W-18 went on CNN, in the dark with a voice distorter, and said she thought the 'young boy' was calling for help.

All this has given much of the public the impression that up to four on-scene witnesses support Martin as the screamer, on the grounds of the voice being youthfully high-pitched.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2012, 12:25:56 PM »
So would Zimmerman's.

If Martin's voice was deeper, how would the scream being high pitched exclude Zimmerman?

No one actually said the voice calling for help sounded high pitched or youthful until days or weeks after the shooting.

Mary Cutcher and Selma Mora told Serino they didn't hear any words.

W-18 told 911 she saw two 'men' wrestling, and then one of 'men' started calling for help. She said the same to Serino that night.

Austin (W-14) told 911, and Serino a few days later, that the man on the ground was the screamer. He is supposed to have told a journalist that he had changed his mind and thought Trayvon was the screamer, but that's not mentioned in the summary of his SAO interview (p. 33 of the July 12, 284 page release).

Cutcher and Mora were paraded on TV, saying they thought a 'little boy' was crying, and not mentioning that they didn't even hear the calls for help. W-18 went on CNN, in the dark with a voice distorter, and said she thought the 'young boy' was calling for help.

All this has given much of the public the impression that up to four on-scene witnesses support Martin as the screamer, on the grounds of the voice being youthfully high-pitched.



Thanks. I was going to post much the same thing earlier but figured you'd start in with how we don't know if TM's voice was deep or deeper than GZ's at any rate and so forth.

 ;) :)

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Ricky Jim's scerio discussion
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2012, 01:38:30 PM »
The testimony of Witness 6 is inconsistent with TM trying to wrest a gun from GZ.

If he was trying to deflect the gun or disarm GZ  any person in Martin's position would focus on  grabbing the gun hand / wrist / arm with both hands with all force he could muster.

One of my martial arts books says the way to disarm a gunman is to grab his wrist with one hand, and slap the back of his hand with other.

Assuming Martin would act as you describe, I don't see how that would be inconsistent with what W-6 described.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2012, 05:09:12 PM »
The best eyewitness, W#6, said he couldn't tell whether Martin was raining down blows MMA style or simply trying to hold down Zimmerman's wrists. 

In over 50 minutes of interviews, with SPD, FDLE, and Corey's SAO, I don't think W-6 ever once said the word 'wrist' or 'wrists'.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #101 on: December 19, 2012, 07:32:44 PM »
How was he going to point his headlights down the dog path?  Are you suggesting he park perpendicular in the roadway blocking all traffic?
I doubt there is much traffic inside a gated community on a rainy Sunday evening.  I see people perform the maneuver, all the time, of going perpendicular to the sidewalk when making U-turns on residential streets.  Maybe a Google Maps expert can tell us how wide the street perpendicular to the dogpath is.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 07:35:08 PM by RickyJim »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #102 on: December 19, 2012, 08:10:47 PM »
Another idea for a thread would be, How Would the Defense Present Their Case Without Zimmerman Testifying? I won't start it myself because I don't have the foggiest idea of the answer right now.  Here is an example of the questions Zimmerman might be asked about his trip from TTL to RVC if he were cross examined.
  • Since Martin was out of sight and you felt he was running towards the back entrance, why didn't you drive to that area to observe if you could see him from that viewpoint?
  • Since you lost sight of him when he went into the dogpath, what made you confident you could walk by it on your way to RVC without being ambushed?
  • Did you get the address of a house on RVC for the cops to meet you at and if so, what did you do with the address?
  • When on RVC, you abandoned your plan to give an address to the dispatcher and have the cops meet you there.  Why?
  • You didn't tell the dispatcher to have the police meet you at your car but instead told them to call you when they arrived.  What were you planning to do before they arrived?
  • Since you had no idea where Martin was, and thought he might be close by, as you said when asked for your address, why didn't you wait for the police on RVC instead of walking by the dark dogpath again?
I don't think Serino, Singleton and Hannity did a very good job of cross examination.  The prosecution  might be smart to hire an expert to do it.  No, Not me.   :D
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 08:14:30 PM by RickyJim »

Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2012, 09:20:10 PM »
Another idea for a thread would be, How Would the Defense Present Their Case Without Zimmerman Testifying?

If Zimmerman doesn't testify, how the defense presents its case will depend greatly on how the state presents its case. For instance, if the prosecution wants to use the alleged inconsistencies in Zimmerman's interviews (as they probably will),  I believe the entire interviews will likely be admitted into evidence on the doctrine of completeness. At that point, I wonder if the advantage of Zimmerman testifying would outweigh the risk of cross-examination. Most of his version will be before the jury.

Certainly the defense can use W6 to establish that, at least, Martin was on top, and the first-responders and the photographs to establish Zimmerman was injured. Even if the defense can't get W6 to say his first version, where Martin was beating Zimmerman, was likely correct, the injuries make it unlikely Martin was only restraining Zimmerman. The defense will also use their own voice ID witnesses to rebut the state's voice witnesses.

A case where the defendant doesn't testify usually depends a great deal on establishing reasonable doubt by casting doubt on the state's witnesses through cross examination.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2012, 09:28:06 PM »
A case where the defendant doesn't testify usually depends a great deal on establishing reasonable doubt by casting doubt on the state's witnesses through cross examination.

The first question is how the defense will present its case at the immunity hearing without having Zimmerman testify.  That is what I had in mind.

 

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