Author Topic: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?  (Read 67826 times)

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Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2012, 09:43:25 AM »
I am trying to come up with the state's summation at the immunity hearing.  I will make the assumption that all they need to do is show that the evidence that Zimmerman shot in self defense is no better than in equipoise.  In particular, they don't have to present any evidence of malicious intent or bias on Zimmerman's part or whatever would justify a second degree murder charge at trial.  If I am wrong about that I am sure I will find out soon enough.  ;)  I am also leaving DeeDee out of this since at this moment it is unclear if she will be called.  I also assume that the jury will be ignorant of what the prosecution claimed and presented at the immunity hearing.  Imagine the following in 36pt, red, all caps, bold, italic and underlined in order to better simulate Bernie's presentation.  ;D

Your honor, first I want to point out that it was at least as likely that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor as it was Martin.  Zimmerman left the safety of his truck shortly after he says Martin circled it with hostile intent.  He tells us that he was so fearful of confrontation that he wouldn't open the window part way to explain his business to Martin.  But still when the police dispatcher suggested he return to his vehicle, he kept going through the cut through to Retreat View Circle to get an address he says, for the police to meet him at, yet he never got the address and finally told the dispatcher to have the police call him when they arrived.  This clearly shows he wasn't concerned so much for his safety.  The hunt was on and he smelled meat.  As he was getting out of his truck, he told the dispatcher that Martin was running for the back entrance.  If he really wanted a good view of that he could have quickly driven close to the back entrance to head Martin off and more easily given the police directions where to meet him.  No, your honor, Zimmerman was so blinded by rage that another asshole would get away that he got out of his truck with his gun in his jacket pocket.  He told us that when Martin appeared out of the darkness, he searched for his cellphone to call 911 which he claimed was in his jacket pocket.  What he was really reaching for was the gun.  How the heck was he going to get a 911 call in with this guy he claimed he was in fear of close by?  Trayvon being at the "T" at that moment, when he could have been home, doesn't show aggressive intent on his part; he may really have wanted to know why he was being followed.  Thus we argue that the initial aggression was by Zimmerman.

In the following fight, your honor, the evidence is certainly in equipoise as to who is screaming for help.  The FBI says it can't be scientifically determined and the relatives and friends all say it is their man crying for his life.  Yes, Zimmerman was injured but not Martin, before the fatal shot.  We feel that indicates that Zimmerman was so intent on holding onto his gun, trying for the fatal shot, that he didn't defend himself.  He knew he wasn't in mortal danger from Martin.  He had the gun and his injuries were much less than he claimed later.  The best eyewitness, W#6, said he couldn't tell whether Martin was raining down blows MMA style or simply trying to hold down Zimmerman's wrists.  Thus your honor, it is not more likely than not that Zimmerman fired in self defense and this case should be decided by a jury.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 09:50:20 AM by RickyJim »

Offline FromBelow

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2012, 09:59:43 AM »
Well, you have managed to capture BDLR's misstating the facts of the case. BTW, from what I understand being the initial aggressor doesn't exclude immunity if you can show that one or both of the two exceptions to the aggressor statute are true. However, I'm not sure how sympathetic a judge or jury would be if it's found the defendant was the initial aggressor. It certainly doesn't seem right to me that such a person should get off without any consequence at all. Anyway, keep in mind that what you wrote is filled with speculation. I don't know how much weight a judge will give it in an immunity hearing since it's not actual evidence. We may find out since theory and speculation seem to be all the state has.

Quote
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
History.s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2012, 10:22:20 AM »
In particular, they don't have to present any evidence of malicious intent or bias on Zimmerman's part or whatever would justify a second degree murder charge at trial. 

I think you are right.

Early in the case, I looked up the pertinent Florida statutes. That included the notorious SYG laws, and the degrees of homicide.

As I read the statutes, the elements of justifiable use of deadly force are the same for all classes of homicide. What the prosecution intends to charge at trial has no bearing on the immunity hearing.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2012, 11:09:31 AM »
I am also leaving DeeDee out of this since at this moment it is unclear if she will be called.

I'm not aware of any indication that the prosecution is hesitant about calling Dee Dee. You can speculate that they won't, but that's true of any witness.

I don't think the prosecution is going to concede that there is any problem with Dee Dee's credibility. I think they will call her, and rely heavily on her testimony in their closing arguments.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2012, 11:21:48 AM »
I'm not aware of any indication that the prosecution is hesitant about calling Dee Dee. You can speculate that they won't, but that's true of any witness.

I don't think the prosecution is going to concede that there is any problem with Dee Dee's credibility. I think they will call her, and rely heavily on her testimony in their closing arguments.

I should have said that the Crump/Gutman tape might so change our perception of what DeeDee's testimony will be that I will withhold for now trying to factor her input into the prosecution's argument.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2012, 11:58:02 AM »
I'm not aware of any indication that the prosecution is hesitant about calling Dee Dee. You can speculate that they won't, but that's true of any witness.

I don't think the prosecution is going to concede that there is any problem with Dee Dee's credibility. I think they will call her, and rely heavily on her testimony in their closing arguments.

She will be called as a witness at the immunity hearing, correct?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2012, 12:07:18 PM »
I don't think the prosecution is going to concede that there is any problem with Dee Dee's credibility. I think they will call her, and rely heavily on her testimony in their closing arguments.

She will be called as a witness at the immunity hearing, correct?

I think she will be called at the immunity hearing, and at the trial if there is one.

If she turns out to be an utter disaster for the prosecution at the immunity hearing, the defense may call her at the trial.

Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2012, 01:27:43 PM »
One problem DeeDee poses for the state is she negates the argument RickyJim makes that Martin was at the "T" to ask Zimmerman why he was following him. That's not consistent with the terrified Martin in DeeDee's tale. So how does the  prosecution explain why Martin was at the "T" instead of safely at home?

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2012, 01:31:17 PM »
Can the prosecution both have DeeDee's testimony and admit that Martin and Zimmerman met up at the "T"?

Offline MJW

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2012, 01:37:23 PM »
Can the prosecution both have DeeDee's testimony and admit that Martin and Zimmerman met up at the "T"?

I think they've got to try to thread that needle, but I'm not sure how they'll do it. So far, the state hasn't committed to a well-defined theory of what occurred.

Offline jeanmarc8

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Re: Ricky Jim's scerio discussion
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2012, 02:25:41 PM »
For RickyJim: I dont see that your scenario can progress to the point to justify TM sitting on top of GZs chest/abdomen, with the injuries already inflicted. That positioning alone seems egregious to me, particularly with TM's lack of de-confliction when the witnesses arrived. That positioning would support the response with lethal force in self defense, in my view, but IANAL.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Ricky Jim's scerio discussion
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2012, 02:45:30 PM »
For RickyJim: I dont see that your scenario can progress to the point to justify TM sitting on top of GZs chest/abdomen, with the injuries already inflicted. That positioning alone seems egregious to me, particularly with TM's lack of de-confliction when the witnesses arrived. That positioning would support the response with lethal force in self defense, in my view, but IANAL.
I covered that in the post.  The argument was that Martin, was desperately trying to pin Zimmerman's arm with the gun down.  Remember that I am only trying to give an argument to show it was no more than 50-50 it was self defense.  It wouldn't even be submitted to the jury if that is all the prosecution argues at trial.  I am totally at a loss when trying to imagine how they will close the gap to "beyond a reasonable doubt".  But we have 7 months to figure that one out.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2012, 11:39:04 PM »
Can the prosecution both have DeeDee's testimony and admit that Martin and Zimmerman met up at the "T"?

I think they've got to try to thread that needle, but I'm not sure how they'll do it.

I have an idea of how they will do it. I'm not sure we're allowed to discuss it here.

I think they will play the racism card. When confronted with a question they can't answer, they will declare, or insinuate, that it's 'racist' to raise the question. The media will have their backs, including making the accusation openly in cases where the prosecutors feel it is prudent only to insinuate.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case?
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2012, 07:36:57 AM »
I find myself mystified by your post NMNM.  Are you saying anytime the defense shows a contradiction between DeeDee's account of what she thought Travyon told her and other evidence, the prosecution rebuttal will be to say only racists see a contradiction?   :o   Do you have a particular example in mind?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 07:38:52 AM by RickyJim »

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Ricky Jim's scerio discussion
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2012, 07:46:41 AM »
I covered that in the post.  The argument was that Martin, was desperately trying to pin Zimmerman's arm with the gun down. .  But we have 7 months to figure that one out.

The testimony of Witness 6 is inconsistent with TM trying to wrest a gun from GZ.

If he was trying to deflect the gun on disarm GZ  any person in Martin's position would focus on  grabbing the gun hand / wrist / arm with both hands with all force he could muster.
A trial would be a miscarriage of justice

 

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