Author Topic: The Button and the Headphones  (Read 25775 times)

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Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2013, 11:14:59 PM »
If they were close to the body, they would have been under the blanket.

CST Smith arrived at 8:03 PM and Malphurs arrived at 9:45 PM. Santiago arrived at 8:10 PM, shortly after Smith and well before Malphurs. He says (16/184):

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On February 26, 2012, I was notified to respond to the area of Retreat View Circle reference a shooting. I then notified Inv. Singleton to also respond. Upon my arrival and entering the crime scene, I observed a black male, later identified as, Trayvon Martin lying on the ground with his face up with his head to the west  Martin was wearing a grey sweatshirt and light colored shorts and white tennis shoes.

Smith photographed the scene, so quite likely had the yellow covering removed while she photographed areas around the body.

In any event, I think it somewhat unlikely that the headphones would end up loose on the ground so close to Martin that they'd be covered with the same blanket. The altercation apparently moved some distance, and Martin moved after he was shot. If the headphones were to fall to the ground, I think they'd probably have fallen earlier, so there'd be some luck involved in Martin ending up right next to them.

Malpurs was listed in the first discovery as a "B" witness. That seems like a strange designation for someone so much involved in the investigation, especially someone who didn't write a report. "B" witnesses normally can only be deposed by leave of the court. I don't know if the state changed her to an "A" witness, or if she was deposed by mutual consent between the defense and prosecution.

(In passing, I assume Tara Malphurs is the same person as Tara Clark, with perhaps a change in marital status.)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 11:17:33 PM by MJW »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2013, 11:29:07 PM »
Smith photographed the scene, so quite likely had the yellow covering removed while she photographed areas around the body.

In any event, I think it somewhat unlikely that the headphones would end up loose on the ground so close to Martin that they'd be covered with the same blanket. The altercation apparently moved some distance, and Martin moved after he was shot. If the headphones were to fall to the ground, I think they'd probably have fallen earlier, so there'd be some luck involved in Martin ending up right next to them.

I don't understand why all this conjecture should outweigh the plain statement of Sgt. Stacie McCoy that she saw the ear phones next to Martin's body.

You still haven't offered an explanation for why she would make that up, or make such an odd mistake.

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(In passing, I assume Tara Malphurs is the same person as Tara Clark, with perhaps a change in marital status.)

I don't recall seeing the name 'Tara Clark'.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2013, 11:49:54 PM »
Santiago arrived at 8:10 PM

The contamination log (48-49/284) says 8:20. I don't see an arrival time in Santiago's report.

But, fair enough. Santiago's report suggests the body was left uncovered for longer than I thought. That doesn't change CST Smith's report, which indicates the body was covered when she first inspected the scene.

Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2013, 11:55:25 PM »
I don't understand why all this conjecture should outweigh the plain statement of Sgt. Stacie McCoy that she saw the ear phones next to Martin's body.

You still haven't offered an explanation for why she would make that up, or make such an odd mistake.

I don't recall seeing the name 'Tara Clark'.

I've already said at some point they were next to the body. The report was written on March 9, so it may not reflect the sequence of events exactly. You have yet to explain why you ignore Smith's direct statement that the headphones were among the articles in Martin's pockets or on him. The difference is, there's circumstantial evidence to support that: the grouping of the headphones with other items that were undoubtedly on Martin's person, the evidence number, which is after money found in Martin's pockets, and most of all, the lack of an object marker. All those were things that occurred on the night of the shooting, not reconstructions two weeks later.

"T. Clark" and "Tara Clark" are mentioned in Serino's report on pages 37-38 of the 184 page PDF.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 12:03:12 AM by MJW »

Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2013, 12:00:43 AM »
The contamination log (48-49/284) says 8:20. I don't see an arrival time in Santiago's report.

But, fair enough. Santiago's report suggests the body was left uncovered for longer than I thought. That doesn't change CST Smith's report, which indicates the body was covered when she first inspected the scene.

It doesn't have to change it, since I offered the very reasonable hypothesis that Smith had the cover removed when she photographed the area around the body. If it was covered when Smith arrived but not covered when Santiago arrived, the cover had to have been removed.

Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2013, 12:07:44 AM »
"T. Clark" and "Tara Clark" are mentioned in Serino's report on pages 37-38 of the 184 page PDF.

Perhaps a better theory than marriage or divorce is that Serino just got her name wrong.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2013, 12:50:42 AM »
I've already said at some point they were next to the body.

Right. Sorry. I was about to respond to that, when I saw your later comments. I got caught up in details, and forgot that point.

I don't understand what you are suggesting. Tara Malphurs took the earphones off of Martin, and instead of bagging them, dropped them on the ground?

Malphurs reportedly told SAO that she didn't remember the beverage can (35/284). I think she most likely didn't see it, because it had already been collected by the time she arrived.

McCoy reported seeing the can and ear phones at the same time.

The can is DMS-8. If the items were numbered in the order they were collected, that undermines my theory that CST Smith was busy collecting while Malphurs examined the body.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 12:53:57 AM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2013, 01:44:34 AM »
I don't understand what you are suggesting. Tara Malphurs took the earphones off of Martin, and instead of bagging them, dropped them on the ground?

That's a good point, and suggests to me the explanation is, as I suggested in the DeeDee thread:

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Another possibility is they were not on his head, but hung  by the wire that went inside the hoodie through the neck hole.

That would both answer the question of why the seemed to be next to Martin. and why they would be considered to be "on" Martin.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2013, 06:52:06 AM »
"T. Clark" and "Tara Clark" are mentioned in Serino's report on pages 37-38 of the 184 page PDF.

Thanks.

I agree. Serino named Clark as the person he contacted at the ME's office, and the person who responded to the scene. It seems, for whatever reason, he was using 'Tara Clark' for Tara Malphurs.

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2013, 08:23:27 AM »
Right. Sorry. I was about to respond to that, when I saw your later comments. I got caught up in details, and forgot that point.

I don't understand what you are suggesting. Tara Malphurs took the earphones off of Martin, and instead of bagging them, dropped them on the ground?

Malphurs reportedly told SAO that she didn't remember the beverage can (35/284). I think she most likely didn't see it, because it had already been collected by the time she arrived.

McCoy reported seeing the can and ear phones at the same time.

The can is DMS-8. If the items were numbered in the order they were collected, that undermines my theory that CST Smith was busy collecting while Malphurs examined the body.
I told myself I would never comment on this thread but find impossible not to point out that the obvious contradiction in this argument.

It is accepted that the can of WFJC was in the hoodie pocket.  McCoy is the report you keep referring to as evidence to your POV and yet she sees the item together with another of the known pocket contents.
How can you ignore that?
That they are not mentioned by Livingston is not abject proof she did not inadvertently cause them to fall from the pocket... If they are threaded through the hood in a photo fine... OTOH If they are a wadded mess on the ground, that is entirely different.
IMO only a photo will answer the question.
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Posted by: MJW
« on: January 13, 2013, 03:50:50 PM » Insert Quote
Quote from: MJW on January 13, 2013, 03:19:00 PM
Unless other evidence comes out, I think the button was pinned to the hoodie, just as several people stated.

One thing I do wonder about is why Malphurs would remove a button pinned to the hoodie. That seems like a poor choice, given that the button was said to be near the bullet hole, and therefore the button location might be significant. Also, why is there no report of the button being tested for DNA?
Agreed, why remove the button they lifted the shirt to try and seal the wound, in the photos it is not cut later so the EMT did not use scissors at the scene... Why was it removed?

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2013, 08:28:24 AM »
Sundance at The Conservative Treehouse writes:
Quote
The discrepancies between the “in pocket” evidence vs. “out of pocket” evidence is easily reconciled. I have actually spoken to these people, not just read their reports. the pocket contents were removed when looking for ID. They were replaced. Various PD folks saw the actual body during this process, that’s why some saw them on the ground, others did not.

The only things OUTSIDE of the pockets in the crime scene were the items marked and photographed with the exception of the Watermelon Juice can. That was photographed on top of the victim (tarp covering him) because it could not be placed easily back into his pockets. That’s why there are pictures of that item *on* the tarp at the scene.

If it was not marked, photgraphed, and location identified, it was in his pockets. Period.

That’s why it is not in dispute.
An interesting argument.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2013, 09:49:09 AM »
That they are not mentioned by Livingston is not abject proof she did not inadvertently cause them to fall from the pocket...

I agree.

It's not even proof that she didn't deliberately remove the earphones.

I recall that on the 'pockets' thread, someone once suggested the latter scenario was the most likely. I disagreed. My argument was always that the scenario wasn't highly likely, not that I would rule it out.

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2013, 10:41:33 AM »
Sundance at The Conservative Treehouse writes:
An interesting argument.
The button of course refutes this argument, at least in part.
As written before, both Ayala and Ciesla mention the button and its location converse to the evidence log.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2013, 11:03:22 AM »
So did Martin take off the headset and put them in his pocket before meeting Zimmerman or didn't he?  The fate of the DeeDee story hangs in the balance. 

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2013, 10:27:20 PM »
Stay tuned for the next thrilling episode.

 

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