Author Topic: The Button and the Headphones  (Read 25824 times)

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Offline unitron

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2013, 05:09:51 AM »
It seems to me most likely that he'd have the phone in a pocket somewhere instead of in his hands, with the earphones/microphone cord set plugged into it and run up under the hoodie to his ears.

Which brings up the question of when and how the headset got unplugged from the phone and the phone got out of the pocket and onto the ground.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2013, 02:22:47 PM »
An interesting argument.

A tall story.

There was no reason for anything to be returned to a pocket after being removed. If the officers were in such a hurry to identify Martin that they went through his pockets without waiting for the ME investigator, they could also bag and tag the items themselves. At the least, they would hold the items in gloved hands, not throw them on the ground.

We not only have the reports, we have summaries of SAO interviews with some of the crime scene investigators. Nothing in the discovery suggests that they went through Martin's pockets before Malphurs arrived.

Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2013, 05:54:07 PM »
Nothing in the discovery suggests that they went through Martin's pockets before Malphurs arrived.

I disagree. Your favorite headphone witness, McCoy, says:

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I instructed Officer T. Smith, to have provide medical care to the suspect, reference visible blood on his face and then to transport the suspect to the SPD, for everyone's safety. I also instructed Officer A. Johnson to accompany Officer T. Smith to SPD for officer safety. I instructed Officer C. Davila to attempt to locale the victim's identification, to no avail.

The victim is described as a younger B/M, in his teens. I observed a single gun shot wound to his chest. I observed a package of Skittles in the front pocket of the victims sweatshirt. I observed a can of Arizona iced tea and a pair of ear phones, in close proximity to the victim's body. Scattered nearby, I observed a small flashlight, cell phone and car keys with a small flashlight.

That more than suggests they looked for the ID quite early on, it  strongly suggests it.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2013, 09:35:51 PM »
Nothing in the discovery suggests that they went through Martin's pockets before Malphurs arrived.

I disagree. Your favorite headphone witness, McCoy, says:

Right you are.

My bad.

ETA: Of course, if it was McCoy who ordered the search of the pockets, it's not likely that this was the explanation for her reporting seeing the ear phones next to the body. She would know why they were there, and that the location had no evidentiary significance.

Again, it makes no sense that any of the items would be placed on the ground. That would be deliberately contaminating evidence.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 09:46:37 PM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2013, 10:58:12 PM »
Of course, if it was McCoy who ordered the search of the pockets, it's not likely that this was the explanation for her reporting seeing the ear phones next to the body. She would know why they were there, and that the location had no evidentiary significance.

I don't think that's necessarily true. She may have gone away from the body to attend to something else, and not watched the the actual search. In any event, the evidence is so contradictory, I don't where the earphones were. I still think the best explanation is that they were on the ground, but attached by the wire. That's not completely satisfactory, but at least it somewhat explains why were seen near the body but weren't given an object marker. I think the location is known by those involved in the case, and will eventually come out.

If the ear phones were separate, even if the body and earphones were covered by the blanket all the time Smith was there prior to Malphurs's arrival (which I very much doubt), I still think someone would have mentioned them, and they would have been marked.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2013, 03:07:25 AM »
At first read, the explanation makes some sense.  Until you read it a couple of times, then it raises some questions.  In any event, it doesn't explain the button.  TO ME, if the button is in question, so are the rest of the items.   

If SD had photographic proof, I doubt that he would have qualms about cropping the just earbuds showing where they were and posting them.  When he says that he doesn't because it is irrelevant I don't believe him.  He is making sure that no one files an complaint against him.  He needs someone to post them first so he can screenshot it for use on his site.  I don't blame him there but he comes across as insincere.

Just IMO.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2013, 04:14:15 AM »
I'm not going to discuss some blogger's sincerity or lack thereof.

I think it may be useful to state that my practice is to disregard all unsubstantiated claims of inside information.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2013, 05:14:30 AM »
Nicely put.  When I grow up I want to be you.  8-)

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2013, 07:28:06 AM »
A tall story.

There was no reason for anything to be returned to a pocket after being removed. If the officers were in such a hurry to identify Martin that they went through his pockets without waiting for the ME investigator, they could also bag and tag the items themselves. At the least, they would hold the items in gloved hands, not throw them on the ground.

We not only have the reports, we have summaries of SAO interviews with some of the crime scene investigators. Nothing in the discovery suggests that they went through Martin's pockets before Malphurs arrived.

If they're just searching for ID, then yes, other contents will often get put back into pockets instead of bagged at the scene.

Offline leftwig

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2013, 02:27:36 PM »
It seems to me most likely that he'd have the phone in a pocket somewhere instead of in his hands, with the earphones/microphone cord set plugged into it and run up under the hoodie to his ears.

Agreed, just like we see him in the 7-11.

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Which brings up the question of when and how the headset got unplugged from the phone and the phone got out of the pocket and onto the ground.

Also agree that this has potential significance.  If they were still running up through his hoodie, then that means he didn't take them off before the conflict.  Not sure that would mean much.  If they were however found in his pockets, that would mean he took them off and placed them there before confronting GZ.  That would have serious implications for Dee Dee's account and provide insight to TM's state of mind before facing off with GZ. 

I do think its unclear where the headphones were, but you know the defense is going to draw from any evidence that they were found in the pockets and will back it up with the fact that they weren't bagged and tested separately like every other item not found on TM's person.  The only reasons I  think of for them not having been  bagged and tagged is either the police messed up or they weren't on the ground.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2013, 07:09:47 PM »
Nicely put.

Thank you.

It seems a bit stuffy to me. I guess that comes of choosing words carefully, to address a somewhat delicate matter.

I just want to talk about the substance of this case, not to start any tiresome and time-wasting feuds.

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When I grow up I want to be you.  8-)

I don't think it would take me long to talk you out of that.   :)   ;)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:13:50 PM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2013, 07:29:18 PM »
Responding to post on another thread.

The interview was conducted on April 2, 2012 -- over a month later. Why assume he hallucinated when we could assume he misremembered? By that time, everyone had heard the NEN call where GZ said TM was wearing the button. Why was the photo button specifically mentioned in that very brief interview summary? For all we know, Gilbreath reminded Ayala of the button, and Ayala said the gunshot wound must have been under it. What does "under a photo button" mean, anyway? Lower than the button, or covered by the button? I don't have much faith in an interview summary that doesn't make that clear.

I don't put much confidence in any of those interview summaries. I grant that this one might be in error for some reason.

For the button to be covering the wound, it would have to have been pinned to the shirt after the gunshot. Who would do that, and why?

If that were true, it would be remarkable. I think there would have been some mention of it by now.

If the wound were covered by the button, Ayala wouldn't have seen it without removing the button. Conceivable that he wouldn't mention that, but not likely.

In some contexts, 'under the button' could mean covered by it. In this context, I think it clearly doesn't.

If Ayala didn't see a button, I think he would just say so.

Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2013, 08:26:00 PM »
I  agree "under the photo button button" almost certainly meant lower than the button. But if you compare the position of the button in the 7-Eleven video with the position of the entry wound as shown in the autopsy diagram, it would seem the entry hole must have been very close to the button. Yet no one on the night of the shooting saw fit to mention it or treat the button as a significant piece of evidence.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2013, 10:00:44 PM »
Yet no one on the night of the shooting saw fit to mention it or treat the button as a significant piece of evidence.

The button was mentioned by being logged, like the other evidence.

I don't know how else you would expect the button to be mentioned on 2/26, or how it wasn't treated 'as a significant piece of evidence'.


Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2013, 11:27:45 PM »
The button was mentioned by being logged, like the other evidence.

I don't know how else you would expect the button to be mentioned on 2/26, or how it wasn't treated 'as a significant piece of evidence'.

I would expect that some of the first-responders would have noted in their initial reports that the bullet entered right next to a photo button. Apparently that was significant enough to mention a month later in a nine-sentence interview summary. It was logged along with various other items found in TM's pockets or close proximity without bothering to record where it was located. If it were treated as a significant piece of evidence, it would have been separately bagged, or, more likely, covered to protect it from the elements but left on the hoodie.

 

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