Author Topic: The Button and the Headphones  (Read 26576 times)

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Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2013, 11:36:38 PM »
I would expect that some of the first-responders would have noted in their initial reports that the bullet entered right next to a photo button.

Those reports were written after 2/26. A number of them mention the button, though not its proximity to the wound.

Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2013, 12:36:52 AM »
Those reports were written after 2/26. A number of them mention the button, though not its proximity to the wound.

Some were written 2/27. I could have missed some, but the only early one I know of that mentions the button is Ciela's 3/2 report on page 20/184.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2013, 01:13:03 AM »

I could have missed some, but the only early one I know of that mentions the button is Ciela's 3/2 report on page 20/184.

I guess you don't count CST Smith's report, 3/6, 80/184, as 'early'.

Sgt. Santiago, 3/2, 16/184, listed some of the items collected from Martin's person. I thought he included the button, but I was mistaken.

Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2013, 01:46:27 AM »
I guess you don't count CST Smith's report, 3/6, 80/184, as 'early'.

I didn't notice it, or I would have counted it, but it seems curiously noncommittal about where the items were found. The evidence bag says the DSM-10 items were "in the victim's pocket or in close proximity." What's that supposed to mean? Is a button pinned to TM's chest in close proximity to his pocket? How hard is it to record where the items were actually located?

Offline MJW

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2013, 01:50:37 AM »
I'm pretty sure the defense and prosecution know by now where the photo button was, so it's probably somewhat pointless to worry about it.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2013, 02:32:22 AM »
I didn't notice it, or I would have counted it, but it seems curiously noncommittal about where the items were found.

I discussed that in a post near the beginning of the thread. I think her attention was elsewhere, probably collecting the items on the ground, when Malphurs was examining the body.

I'm pretty sure the defense and prosecution know by now where the photo button was

Of course. They have the photos of the body, and have deposed the people who worked the scene. I don't expect this to be an issue at trial.

ETA: Malphurs probably wrote the label for the evidence bag. Smith may have copied it for the log, overlooking the last words.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 02:36:03 AM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2013, 08:52:34 AM »
TO ME!  The thing about not testing the button is if it was in the pocket.  There are a number of photos of Martin at the scene that should explain where the ear buds and the button were actually located.

IMO AGAIN.  I think that button was in his pocket.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2013, 11:27:01 PM »
Responding to post on another thread.

I think its a fair assumption if he said the gunshot was "under" the button, that the button was covering it.

Discussed here. 

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"under" would be the precise word to use if an object was covering another, not vertically above.

I disagree. 'Under' is ambiguous, not a precise word for either case.

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I wouldn't assume he hallucinated anything, but maybe misremembered, depending on how much time had elapsed before his report was taken.

It was 4/2/12, about five weeks after the shooting.

People often misremember exactly what they saw, or where or when they saw it. It's not likely someone would remember seeing something they didn't see at all, unless it was somehow suggested to him.

By the 4/2 interview, I think everyone connected to the investigation would know whether the button was found in a pocket or pinned to the hoodie. There would be no reason for anyone to suggest to Ayala that he had seen something different from what others saw. Nor does it seem likely Ayala would be susceptible to such a suggestion.

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Is it possible he saw a kid who was shot and bleeding out

There wasn't much external bleeding. If there had been, controlling it would have been the first priority.

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and just started trying to revive him as quick as possible without really thinking about what he was seeing,

Then I think he would have said he didn't remember seeing anything on the shirt, not claim to have seen something no one else saw, and that others did see was not there.

Ayala did the chest compressions. I think he would have noticed whether or not there was a large button on that part of the hoodie.

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then later when gathering evidence,

I don't think Ayala participated in gathering evidence.

The reports say CST Smith collected the items on the ground, after she and Ciesla measured them. It seems Tara Malphurs (for some reason, 'Tara Clark' in Serino's report) collected the evidence on Martin's person. (184, pp. 20, 37, 38, 80, 137.)

Curiously, Ayala's own report doesn't say what he did after Sgt. McCoy took over the chest compressions (14/184). Serino said Ayala briefed him when he arrived about 8PM (37/184).

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saw the button place on TM's chest

Why would someone put it on Martin's chest? Anyway, there is no reason Ayala would have been inspecting the body after McCoy relieved him on CPR.

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I can't fathom a reason why the button wouldn't have been tested for blood and gunshot residue.

Do you have an explanation for why the cell phone wasn't tested for fingerprints?

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We haven't seen a report on it, so is the report being held back (seems impossible given sunshine laws and other reports that have been released)

It's pleasant to imagine we have all the evidence, but we don't. For example, there are several videos that we know exist and haven't been released.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 11:33:48 PM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline leftwig

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2013, 07:58:07 AM »
So in a scenario where I said the button was under his shirt, would you believe I meant it was on his pants or underneath the top layer of clothing?  And if I said the button was below his shirt?

I think Ayala saw the button on TM's sweatshirt at some point that evening.  I was thinking the misremembering might be when he saw it (say after TM was deceased and someone placed the button on top of the body knowing it was something special to him).  But yes, I do tend to agree that if there were no other evidence, I would believe Ayala's recollection was correct and that he saw the button on TM as he first approached him.  However, I can't fathom any reason why the button would not have been tested (and it appears it wasn't but if it was, then I'd change my opinion).  For me, the question is, which do I find more realistic, Ayala misremember exactly what he saw and when, or that a bunch of detectives and police failing to bag and test a piece of evidence that obviously should have been tested?

I didn't say the bleeding out was external.  Wasn't it Ayala that requested the plastic bag to stop the sucking chest wound? 

I think the cell phone should have been tested for GZ's DNA, however I don't think its close to as big a miss as the button would be.  The clothing, the gun, the holster and everything in close contact between the two individuals was tested for DNA, so why wouldn't a button right next to the bullet hole and likely containing DNA and gunshot residue not be bagged and tested? 

I don't think any of what I am stating is any soft of proof the button wasn't on TM's sweatshirt when Ayala got there and was in TM's pocket or on the ground.  I do think there is information that is missing or incomplete that begs one to question why.  I doubt the defense is putting much energy into it because its probably impossible to know where it really was and the only way the information would help them is if they could prove that the button were in TM's pocket.  I doubt the police or investigators are up to no good on this one, but it does not make them look good.

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2013, 08:58:58 AM »
What is the actual evidence of the button/headphones "in the pocket(s)" anyway? Is it just the entry regarding these, and other items found(lighter and Skittles), in the SPD report description under the Property Narrative("located and collected with in the victim's pockets")?

If that's it then that's really weak. Who entered that information into the report? The information on the evidence bag itself and considering CST Smith collected the stuff I would assume she wrote the description on the bag itself which she describes as "...in the victims pockets or in close proximity." It almost seems like whoever entered that info into the SPD report description left off the "or in close proximity" for whatever reason.

The problem here was lumping all these items in one bag. She should have retrieved one item at a time, described it and where it was found and bagged it.

Given the fact that "or in close proximity" is used here and there were no object markers for any of the items listed I would say a fair assumption is that "in close proximity" would mean on/attached to the body in some form.

But that still leaves us; who is to say from this which item(s) were "in the pockets" and which item(s) were "in close proximity"?

Lighter - This would seem odd and unlikely to characterize as on/attached to the body in some form.
Skittles - This would seem odd and unlikely to characterize as on/attached to the body in some form.
Button - This would NOT seem odd and NOT unlikely to characterize as on/attached to the body in some form.
Headphones - This would NOT seem odd and NOT unlikely to characterize as on/attached to the body in some form.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2013, 09:31:59 AM »
IMO ONLY, they took pictures of the body and items surrounding it.  Because those pictures are protected by law, we won't see them until the trial.  That is only time we will have definitive proof on the position of the items.

Another question.  Isn't "in close proximity" an edit or an add-on?  I don't remember reading that before.

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2013, 09:39:30 AM »
IMO ONLY, they took pictures of the body and items surrounding it.  Because those pictures are protected by law, we won't see them until the trial.  That is only time we will have definitive proof on the position of the items.

Another question.  Isn't "in close proximity" an edit or an add-on?  I don't remember reading that before.

Well, logic is good enough for me ;), I'm going with button and headphones not in pocket.

Evidence Bag with description:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gg072c6k5jii62t/1w-O_bfAHm/Defense%27s%20Documents/Reciprocal%202/defense_photos/DSC_0226.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gg072c6k5jii62t/5SE_vMu4f7
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 09:42:17 AM by DiwataMan »

Offline Cylinder

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2013, 10:00:50 AM »
The best explanation I can come up with is that in the course of medical treatment and identification that these items were taken off or removed from pockets. For instance, I wouldn't do chest compressions with that big needle in the way and the risk of blood-borne pathogens. Once the wallet check proves fruitless, the police are going to go through every pocket for identifying information.

When the evidence is collected, it should be collected as it was found by the tech. It starts looking hinky when a police officer starts shoving evidence into pockets or says it was found in pockets when it was found on the ground. Any discrepancy can hopefully resolved by photographs and testimony.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2013, 10:13:34 AM »
Do we know what pictures were taken of Martin's body, before, during or after CPR?  They might clear up the mystery but they certainly won't be publicly released.

Offline Cylinder

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Re: The Button and the Headphones
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2013, 10:32:50 AM »
Do we know what pictures were taken of Martin's body, before, during or after CPR?  They might clear up the mystery but they certainly won't be publicly released.

After CPR, not counting any witness photographs. I'll have to look at the timing of the photographs in relation to the identity search.

 

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