Author Topic: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos  (Read 46176 times)

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Offline whonoze

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #135 on: February 04, 2013, 04:40:07 PM »
None of the witnesses mistake W13 for a police officer. When they see W13's flashlight they say something like "I don't know if that's a police officer." They're expecting an officer to arrive because they've called 911, and they've told an officer is on the way, or already in the area.

In contrast, W3 is sure "I see a police officer now." Her front window has a view down the E-W leg of TTL and just a bit around the corner towards the mailboxes. Unless T. Smith is lying, she has to have seen his vehicle, because according to his report he didn't get out of his car until he parked on RVC. It's possible she could have seen reflections of the light flashers a few seconds before seeing the car itself, but not a minute and a half earlier.

I think the reason Smith didn't get out of his car and go around back from TTL is that the communication system between 911 and the officer in the field has a significant time lag. Multiple 911 call-takers are entering data in shorthand at the same time. That can't go directly to the field; it would be too confusing. So it all must appear, in that shorthand text form, on the screen of the actual dispatcher, who has to parse it, make a decision about what to tell the officer to do, and then relay instructions. The woman taking W3's calls was also disturbingly dense (or possibly baked, based on the way she spoke...). So i don't think Smith got the message to go to the backyard until AFTER he exited his car on RVC and was looking for the cause of the commotion on foot — otherwise he wouldn't have parked in front of W19's but would have driven up closer to the cut-through sidewalk.

@MJW: Don't worry, you're not taking 'my side' by concluding I got some of the facts right. DiwataMan gets some of the facts right, and we're hardly on the same 'side'.

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #136 on: February 04, 2013, 05:03:00 PM »
None of the witnesses mistake W13 for a police officer. When they see W13's flashlight they say something like "I don't know if that's a police officer." They're expecting an officer to arrive because they've called 911, and they've told an officer is on the way, or already in the area.

In contrast, W3 is sure "I see a police officer now." Her front window has a view down the E-W leg of TTL and just a bit around the corner towards the mailboxes. Unless T. Smith is lying, she has to have seen his vehicle, because according to his report he didn't get out of his car until he parked on RVC. It's possible she could have seen reflections of the light flashers a few seconds before seeing the car itself, but not a minute and a half earlier.

I think the reason Smith didn't get out of his car and go around back from TTL is that the communication system between 911 and the officer in the field has a significant time lag. Multiple 911 call-takers are entering data in shorthand at the same time. That can't go directly to the field; it would be too confusing. So it all must appear, in that shorthand text form, on the screen of the actual dispatcher, who has to parse it, make a decision about what to tell the officer to do, and then relay instructions. The woman taking W3's calls was also disturbingly dense (or possibly baked, based on the way she spoke...). So i don't think Smith got the message to go to the backyard until AFTER he exited his car on RVC and was looking for the cause of the commotion on foot — otherwise he wouldn't have parked in front of W19's but would have driven up closer to the cut-through sidewalk.

@MJW: Don't worry, you're not taking 'my side' by concluding I got some of the facts right. DiwataMan gets some of the facts right, and we're hardly on the same 'side'.

Yeah but what is your point? We don't know what W3 sees. She's upstairs and unless you have been in the same room she was you have no idea what she can see. She thinks they were 5 seconds too late, right after the gunshot, but we know that's not true.

7:16:56 Gunshot
7:19:43 (Event Report) 1 At Gunpoint

7:16:41 (ER#1671) Witness 3 911 Call
29:36 (7:17:46) W3 says “I see a police right now”
29:36 (7:17:46) W18 says “oh my god I see the person right now. I see him like walking.”
29:42 (7:17:52) W18 says “There’s a man coming out, there’s people coming out with flashlights.”
29:49 (7:17:59) W18 says “There’s a man walking out with a flashlight right now.”
30:01 (7:18:11) W18 says “The man is up right now. Someone’s coming over.”
30:09 (7:18:19) W5 says “Now there’s people coming with flashlights.”
7:19:43 (Event Report) 1 At Gunpoint
7:19:51 W3 Says “And the guy, the guy on top had a white T-Shirt.”
7:20:06 Dispatcher says “Do you see what kind of pants?”
7:20:08 W3 says “No”
7:20:20 (Event Report) Complainant ADVD “Said guy was on top wearing a whitshirt/unknown pants”

Given that everything shows the accuracy of the 18 minute thing I see no problem here with W3.

Offline unitron

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #137 on: February 04, 2013, 05:27:19 PM »
In my opinion the 18 minute adjustment in near exact to the second. That's why I put a few events in the video to see how well they match. The calls were placed at the exact time they say on the event reports.

31:25 (7:19:36) W18 Saying she hears George say he shot the person, this is George telling Smith that.
34:45 (7:22:56) GSW Is unresponsive
41:32 (7:29:43) Asks for how much time CPR has transpired
42:18 (7:30:29) Confirmed Signal 07

I find the event at 31:25 particularly compelling because W18 calls it perfectly, then Smith calls in the radio he has George at gunpoint, then the call taker says to W18 Smith has George at gunpoint. There's more I could do but I think what I have should suffice.

I'm confused.

All of that happened after the first officer on the scene showed up where the body was (which was not the same as the time when he first entered the neighborhood) and it all happened where the body was, none of which would have been seen by any of the clubhouse cameras.

Wouldn't the only way to assign the real time to the clubhouse cameras be from the flashing gumball machine lights of the first police car to come in the front gate?

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #138 on: February 04, 2013, 05:29:31 PM »
I'm confused.

All of that happened after the first officer on the scene showed up where the body was (which was not the same as the time when he first entered the neighborhood) and it all happened where the body was, none of which would have been seen by any of the clubhouse cameras.

Wouldn't the only way to assign the real time to the clubhouse cameras be from the flashing gumball machine lights of the first police car to come in the front gate?

An investigator accounted for the time. The rest of what I'm talking about is either on previous comments I've made here or on my blog:
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/clubhouse-video-and-discussion/

Offline leftwig

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #139 on: February 04, 2013, 08:13:30 PM »
One thing we can perhaps agree on: DeeDee and Zimmerman cannot both be telling the truth.*

If Trayvon was under the RATL mail awning at 6:54, then GZ did not see him in Taaffe's yard, and he did not pass GZ near the clubhouse. Conversely, if GZ's version is correct, TM was not under the mail awning at 6:54.

* (I do not aver here that either party  is 'lying,' as I take that to mean the deliberate and knowing utterance of falsehoods, and it's possible both DeeDee and GZ may believe their own statements...)

Maybe, maybe not.  TM could have been under the mail kiosk at 6:54 and after a few minutes went walking elsewhere.  Dee Dee doesn't detail anything he did from the time he came into the complex around 6:54 until he see's GZ watching him. 

We do know that Dee Dee is certainly off in her timing.  Her last call begins after 7:12 according to the phone records and she says it started just after TM left the mail kiosk and has GZ trailing TM in his car.  On the NEN, TM takes off running/skipping around 7:11:40.

Like you, I don't know that either Dee Dee or GZ are relaying information they know to be false.  Expecting them to remember exact timings and sequence of details is unrealistic.


Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #140 on: February 05, 2013, 12:42:22 AM »









Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #141 on: February 05, 2013, 12:45:05 AM »










« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 12:46:38 AM by TalkLeft »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #142 on: February 05, 2013, 06:42:18 AM »



W-3 said that in response to the dispatcher saying 'we do have several officers there, and one officer is there'. I don't see any reason to think it was based on a personal observation, or that W-3 was looking out her back window at that point.

In her FDLE interview, W-3 said that she didn't look out her back window until after the police arrived. I think she would have waited until she felt the scene was secure, not that she rushed to her back window as soon as she thought she saw the policeman.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #143 on: February 06, 2013, 12:05:25 AM »
Diwataman has a new post up on his blog on the clubhouse videos with excellent pictures.

Offline MJW

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #144 on: February 06, 2013, 02:48:39 AM »
Diwataman has a new post up on his blog on the clubhouse videos with excellent pictures.

I'm probably being dense, but I still don't understand DiwataMan's basis for saying the 18 minute correction is accurate. I don't see anything visually in the the clubhouse video that's precisely related to an event in the audio.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #145 on: February 06, 2013, 07:02:46 AM »
I am even denser than MJW.  What probative conclusions can be drawn about the Martin Zimmerman case from these videos?

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #146 on: February 06, 2013, 08:54:33 AM »
I'm probably being dense, but I still don't understand DiwataMan's basis for saying the 18 minute correction is accurate. I don't see anything visually in the the clubhouse video that's precisely related to an event in the audio.

The basis is actually the timestamp, that's what you have to look at. I'm not sure how else to explain it other than I have on my blog. If the 18 minute correction were off then the information provided from 911 calls, event reports and radio transmissions would all be out of sync with the timestamp but they're not, as a matter of fact they align nearly perfectly. Don't get me wrong though. I'm willing to say there is still some room for error but how much would it be? +-30? Just guessing. I don't think it's that much.

I'm not sure how else to explain that might help folks. Perhaps just pick from the things I've listed on the blog and find which makes the most sense to you. Let's try this one.

35:35 (7:23:52) (Event Report/Radio Transmission) Chest wound/Unresp male/Starting CPR Per SO2023
42:18 (7:30:34) (Event Report/Radio Transmission) Confirmed Signal 07

Both in the Event Report and the Radio Transmission we are given the time CPR was started and ended. The original timestamp in the video starts at 6:30. Looking at the original timestamp for the time CPR was started it is 7:05:52. 7:05 + 18 = 7:23. At 7:12:34 of the original timestamp there is a radio transmission and time given for time of death. 7:12:34 + 18 = 7:30:34.

If the timestamp that I have added which accounts for exactly 18 minutes is off then that timestamp would say something else other than 7:23 and 7:30 for those events. But they don't. I hope that helps. :)

Offline whonoze

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #147 on: February 06, 2013, 09:36:49 AM »
If the 18 minute correction were off then the information provided from 911 calls, event reports and radio transmissions would all be out of sync with the timestamp...

Not so for the 911 calls. They are fixed on the clock. I don't know about event reports and radio transmissions, but I assume they are fixed on the clock as well. All the 911 call events in the BCCliist video are at the same time as you have them.

The issue is the sync between the camera videoas a whole and the audio events as a whole. The only way to establish that is by comparing something that happens in the video to something matching in the audio. If you know of something other than W3's remarks that do so, do let us know.

MJW: you're not being dense, just honest.

RickeyJim: The value of the security videos is less in the camera images alone, and more in the combination of the camera images and the audio, especially GZ's NEN call.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #148 on: February 06, 2013, 09:41:13 AM »
The value of the security videos is less in the camera images alone, and more in the combination of the camera images and the audio, especially GZ's NEN call.
So combining the video and audio, your conclusions with degree of certainty are ......

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #149 on: February 06, 2013, 09:54:52 AM »
Not so for the 911 calls. They are fixed on the clock. I don't know about event reports and radio transmissions, but I assume they are fixed on the clock as well. All the 911 call events in the BCCliist video are at the same time as you have them.

The issue is the sync between the camera videoas a whole and the audio events as a whole. The only way to establish that is by comparing something that happens in the video to something matching in the audio. If you know of something other than W3's remarks that do so, do let us know.

MJW: you're not being dense, just honest.

RickeyJim: The value of the security videos is less in the camera images alone, and more in the combination of the camera images and the audio, especially GZ's NEN call.

You know going over this again made me realize you may be right in a sense. I think my method is flawed or I'm just explaining it wrong, a bit of both I think.

I think you are and other are right that it would have to be something seen in the video.

Now I have to go back to the drawing board. :o

 

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