Author Topic: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos  (Read 28843 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DiwataMan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 10:27:30 AM »
I am posting this dialogue from youtube here in the hope that DiwataMan will comment on whether Teeslaw's deductions about the movements of Zimmerman's car can be justiied.

I'm not exactly sure what you would like me to comment on. That may be George's truck passing the front of the clubhouse then later going down Twin Trees but it certainly is not definitive. I actually don't mind a lot of speculation and hypothesizing as long as one keeps in mind that's all it is.

Offline RickyJim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 10:36:31 AM »
Teeslaw claims that based on the kitchen and game room videos, he has the goods that the Ridgeline never parked in front of the clubhouse as shown in the reenactment video.  Do you understand and/or agree with him? 

Offline DiwataMan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 10:45:48 AM »
Teeslaw claims that based on the kitchen and game room videos, he has the goods that the Ridgeline never parked in front of the clubhouse as shown in the reenactment video.  Do you understand and/or agree with him?

I understood it sure. And no, I don't agree one can definitively say that George did not park in front of the clubhouse.

Offline DebFrmHell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 12:45:52 PM »
I am posting this dialogue from youtube here in the hope that DiwataMan will comment on whether Teeslaw's deductions about the movements of Zimmerman's car can be justiied.

The one glaring thing on that video is that they have Martin at the mail kiosk, Zimmerman driving forward at the stop sign to make a Uturn on RVC and reappoaching that intersection before turning left/south on TTL.  They have 45 minutes of the hall cam showing maybe a third to a half of the mail area but no glimpse of Martin at any time. Their opinion is that he never moved to an area where he could be seen but no one wants to account for the fact that he may not have been there at all and that is why he is not seen. Paraphrasing their wording "unfortunately, he never moved into camera range."  They are speculating things to fit their narrative rather than the other way around.

Have you ever watched someone talk on a cell phone and not pace about in the space they have to move around?

Still am only about 2/3rds through it.

I appreciate that they take the time to do these things.  They are biased in their commentaries so that is why I choose to mute.  I am old enough to form my own opinions.

Offline TalkLeft

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1125
  • Rate Post +0/-0
    • TalkLeft: The Politics of Crime
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2013, 03:06:10 AM »
Again you are bringing Anti-Zimmerman biased posters comments here and asking to refute them. We're not interested in doing that.

Bring a journalistic, unbiased account here, fine. But I'm not going to credit biased reports and ask people to respond. You can do that at their sites.


Offline DebFrmHell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2013, 08:16:01 AM »
Again you are bringing Anti-Zimmerman biased posters comments here and asking to refute them. We're not interested in doing that.

Bring a journalistic, unbiased account here, fine. But I'm not going to credit biased reports and ask people to respond. You can do that at their sites.
I'm sorry.  I didn't think I was doing that.

Offline RickyJim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2013, 08:33:39 AM »
Jeralyn was bawling me out, Deb.  Maybe there was a better way we could have discussed whether or not the clubhouse videos tell us anything about what Zimmerman did there without referring to tslaw's youtube one.  It wouldn't have been as easy, however.

Offline DiwataMan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2013, 08:57:32 AM »
Jeralyn was bawling me out, Deb.  Maybe there was a better way we could have discussed whether or not the clubhouse videos tell us anything about what Zimmerman did there without referring to tslaw's youtube one.  It wouldn't have been as easy, however.

It should be easy to discuss it though. I've been looking back at the tapes again and something is happening with that truck that becomes difficult to explain without visual aid. But looking at the other cars travel East in front of the clubhouse the headlights don't shine through the windows as that one does. The headlights from that truck also appear to move away from the clubhouse giving the impression that it is moving away from it almost as if pulling out instead of merely moving consistently down the street. But I can not say with certainty that is what's happening.

If we are to say this is George's truck, it in one sense appears consistent with his story in that he at least stopped somewhere near the clubhouse for the call and later went forward down Twin Trees but I again wonder if it's possible for a vehicle to travel down Twin Trees, if it stays on the North side of the street, and not be seen because of the light blowing out that area.

So it still remains and will always remain with just too much uncertainty because of the bad quality, slow frame rate, not enough seen and possible timing problems of the video.

Also, I know nothing of the legal world but I can't imagine the defense or the state bringing this tape up in court or if they do I doubt either side would try to affirm anything and if they do it'll easily be challenged, and rightly so, by the other side.

Offline DebFrmHell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2013, 10:36:35 AM »
I was more interested in the rain patterns and how they coincide with the phone calls received/made by Martin and W8.  At around 6:40 is was raining steadily, even up to hard.  In that 10 min time frame, with Martin leaving the 7-Eleven at 6:30 he could have gotten into the Lake's Edge or the Colonial.  I really believe that he went into Lake's Edge.  The rain seems steady up until about 6:55-58.  That would get him time to travel to TRATL and through the shortcut. 

There is a part where Zimmerman says something about not getting connected to the NEN immediately so there is a few seconds of hang time before the start of that call.  I thought originally that there was no way that would happen until I had to call the Bike Patrol, which is a NEN, from work.  I had to hold for a few seconds before I was connected.  Here at home I fall under county services, not city, so I get shuffled around in the NEN.  I had to call 911 one time and that was not transferred.

Offline whonoze

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 87
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2013, 05:47:38 AM »
I again wonder if it's possible for a vehicle to travel down Twin Trees, if it stays on the North side of the street, and not be seen because of the light blowing out that area.

"Teeslaw" here.

There is no way for a vehicle to make the turn at the first bend without appearing to pass through the middle light blob. But once it gets onto the West-East leg a ways, the bloom from the light on the Pool wall would obscure it. For example, if the vehicle that parks facing the mailboxes had backed up toward the cut-through sidewalk without turning its lights on, that would not have been visible.

I conclude GZ turned his truck around because I believe he left it where and how he told the police he did. I conclude he turned around in the manner i illustrated because a) that's the easiest way to turn around a vehicle on a narrow street, b) a forward U-turn would have created a more distinct light event, c) there is a subtle change in the light patterns at that point that would correspond to the tail markers or reverse lights of a vehicle moving toward the South side of the street.

Offline RickyJim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2013, 06:34:38 AM »
Teeslaw, I find your claims about Zimmerman's movements just as unintelligible here as I did on youtube.  Perhaps a large collection of diagrams with explaining text is a better method of explanation than a long video, filled with obviously unjustified a priori assumptions, or text alone.

Offline whonoze

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 87
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2013, 06:48:30 AM »
Sorry RickyJim. I did the best I could. Diagrams and text wouldn't maintain coherence in time, which i think is crucial.

BTW, I am removing posts on the YT page that contain insults and/or ad hominem attacks. If you re-post your comment about the GPS data without the insult, I will let it stand (e.g. something like "if we the get a GPS fix on TM we'll know more about what happened and which hypotheses hold water, and which don't" would be fine. "Idiotic", no.)

Offline whonoze

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 87
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2013, 07:09:07 AM »
I want to address the determination of the clock time used in the clubhouse cam video. We were aware of the official document stating the time stamps were 18 minutes off, and we tried that. However, it did not create plausible sync between the time Timothy Smith's squad car arrives on scene, and the time W3 reports seeing it. I assume that if the security vid clock was incorrect, it's not going to record just how incorrect it is, and the '18 minutes' figure was a rough guess. tchoupi, willis, amsterdam and I spent days parsing the time cues between the footage, the NEN call and the 911 calls to arrive at our conclusion.

That is to say, the clock came from the evidence, not any hypothesis of the events. For example, I think initially we all believed GZ called 311 after parking his car somewhere, but the timing evidence indicates he called while driving away from the mailbox area down TTL. It seems counter-intuitive, but there it is.

Time and space are not easily bent. In the process of creating little sprites for the truck, TM and GZ, and getting even rough approximations of their movements to work out in time and space, a lot of specific ideas about where and how things happened had to be discarded. A change of a few seconds or a few yards in position will throw the whole thing impossibly out of whack. (E.g. we know GZ didn't run over Martin with his SUV...) I would have thought GZ parked closer to the first bend when facing the mailboxes, but it just doesn't fit the time and space constraints.

Offline RickyJim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2013, 10:04:08 AM »
Sorry RickyJim. I did the best I could. Diagrams and text wouldn't maintain coherence in time, which i think is crucial.
As a former academic and documentary film maker, you should know very well the importance of clear, careful exposition in presenting your ideas.  Something as complicated as deducing a car's trajectory from poor quality images of lights moving against different backgrounds deserves a presentation as good, say, as expected in a refereed scientific journal.  Bringing in irrelevant assumptions about DeeDee, Martin and Zimmerman should be kept to the barest minimum.

Offline whonoze

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 87
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2013, 11:36:24 AM »
I don't agree one can definitively say that George did not park in front of the clubhouse.

I note, with appreciation DiwataMan's careful and limited wording here. I contend we can definitively say that GZ did not park in front of the clubhouse where and when he said he did in the 're-enactment.' He has Randy Smith pull in to the parking area right in front of the window seen in a direct view from the gameroom camera.

Furthermore, by any calculation, Zimmerman's truck was on TTL, not in front of the clubhouse, when he called 311.

However to elaborate on my previous comment, it is physically impossible for the clubhouse time stamps to be 18 minutes off. If they were, that would mean W3 sees Timothy Smith before he even enters RATL. We determined the videos are 16:32 off, not that much difference from 18:00 if you look at it casually, but quite significant when you try to correlate the video footage with the 311 and 911 calls.

So if Zimmerman ever did park in front of the clubhouse, it wasn't in the spot he told Smith he had been in, and he didn't call 311 from there either.

 

Site Meter
click
tracking