Author Topic: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos  (Read 41458 times)

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Offline DiwataMan

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #150 on: February 06, 2013, 10:45:44 AM »
Okay so one thing we know for sure is that Smith said in his report that he arrived at 2821 Retreat View Circle, canvassed the area, walked between the buildings and found George. However we don't know for sure what entrance he came in or what street(s) he took when he entered. We also don't know what buildings he walked in between. Is that right so far?

I also looked back through the comments and couldn't find where whonoze believes Smith drives down Twin Trees. I'm thinking he's thinking it's the vehicle at 31:00 of my video. Is that right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtSkAEfza40

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #151 on: February 06, 2013, 12:32:17 PM »
the radio transmissions might provide some clues. Here is Diwataman's You Tube of them.

1:25 dispatch people screaming and gunshot
1:48 right outside
1:56 he’s out front, no one’s out here
2:05 she’s saying its behind that location
2:16 we’ve got 2 calls, just got a third and 4th

It's at 4:07 seconds in when Smith tells Cresswe he needs somebody, he's got 1 down with a gunshot wound and 1 secured.
where you at
I'm on Retreat View
which complex is this
where's your car
I'm behind the address on Retreat View

Offline whonoze

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #152 on: February 06, 2013, 12:52:29 PM »
Okay so one thing we know for sure is that Smith said in his report that he arrived at 2821 Retreat View Circle, canvassed the area, walked between the buildings and found George. However we don't know for sure what entrance he came in or what street(s) he took when he entered. We also don't know what buildings he walked in between. Is that right so far?

I also looked back through the comments and couldn't find where whonoze believes Smith drives down Twin Trees. I'm thinking he's thinking it's the vehicle at 31:00 of my video. Is that right?

Yeah, I think it's your 31:00. It looks a little different in your video than in the AVIs you had posted.

As for Smith's walking path: W18 sees him as he turns from RVC onto the cut-through sidewalk. She drew his path on her sketch. So he didn't cut-through the buildings in the sense of walking through the grassy gaps.

We concluded the squad car on TTL had to be Smith, after coming through the North entrance, just because he was first on the scene, and the timing is right for him to be seen by the EPH, drive around a bit, then walk a bit, and arrive at the actual scene at the point where W18 sees him. It can't be Ayala's car, because by the time he got there he had a better idea where to go. So if that had been his car in the EPH, then Smith would have already been there, somewhere else, and both Smith and Ayala would have made it to the dog walk well before any of the witnesses see a police officer in the back. W18 sees him first because she can see down the cut-through sidewalk toward RVC from her unit, whereas John and Selma cannot from theirs.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #153 on: February 06, 2013, 01:31:21 PM »
W18 sees him first because she can see down the cut-through sidewalk toward RVC from her unit, whereas John and Selma cannot from theirs.

Cutcher said 'Police are here,' about 6 seconds before W-18 started to talk about the person we think is Smith.

Just a data point.

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #154 on: February 06, 2013, 02:18:27 PM »
Yeah, I think it's your 31:00. It looks a little different in your video than in the AVIs you had posted.

As for Smith's walking path: W18 sees him as he turns from RVC onto the cut-through sidewalk. She drew his path on her sketch. So he didn't cut-through the buildings in the sense of walking through the grassy gaps.

We concluded the squad car on TTL had to be Smith, after coming through the North entrance, just because he was first on the scene, and the timing is right for him to be seen by the EPH, drive around a bit, then walk a bit, and arrive at the actual scene at the point where W18 sees him. It can't be Ayala's car, because by the time he got there he had a better idea where to go. So if that had been his car in the EPH, then Smith would have already been there, somewhere else, and both Smith and Ayala would have made it to the dog walk well before any of the witnesses see a police officer in the back. W18 sees him first because she can see down the cut-through sidewalk toward RVC from her unit, whereas John and Selma cannot from theirs.

You're assuming that's a police car. I agree it's more than likely that Smith entered the North gate although we can't say with absolute certainty. We still have nothing definitive to say if Smith went past the clubhouse then made the left or if he made the immediate left on RVC after entering.

Offline whonoze

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #155 on: February 06, 2013, 02:57:18 PM »
Cutcher said 'Police are here,' about 6 seconds before W-18 started to talk about the person we think is Smith.
Just a data point.
Mary was not looking out the window, but relaying things Selma was trying to tell her from some distance. The dialogue between the two resulted in Mary reported a variety of things that were incorrect — e.g. that the person who survived the gunshot was black. I haven't double-checked the timing or context of the remark you note, but if Mary said anything about the police before W18 spotted Smith, I would guess she/Selma had mistaken W13 for an officer. Either that or she saw Smith's lights flashing in front of their home, since Smith parked only one door to the South or Cutcher and Mora's unit.

Offline MJW

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #156 on: February 06, 2013, 06:01:32 PM »
If Smith were on TTL, and the dispatcher told him the incident was behind the houses, why would he drive to RVC and then walk through the buildings on RVC to get to the back of the house? Why not stop on TTL and walk through the buildings on TTL?

I also sort of wonder about W3's comment that she see's a police officer. It's possible she was referring to someone in a police car, but I think she'd more likely say she saw a police car. I'm pretty sure that's what I'd say.


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #157 on: February 06, 2013, 06:28:12 PM »
I haven't double-checked the timing or context of the remark you note, but if Mary said anything about the police before W18 spotted Smith, I would guess she/Selma had mistaken W13 for an officer. Either that or she saw Smith's lights flashing in front of their home, since Smith parked only one door to the South or Cutcher and Mora's unit.

I think the latter is most likely.

The possibility that Cutcher could see out a front window at any point hadn't crossed my mind. I don't think she ever mentioned that in her statements. But since you brought it up, I think it is the most likely explanation.

Cutcher's statement about the police really has no context. She just said it out of the blue, without preliminary or explanation. She doesn't seem to be relaying something told her by Mora, as I agree she does at other times. There is no doubt in her voice or her wording, which to me suggests she was seeing unmistakeable police car lights or markings, not interpreting something doubtful in the darkened backyard. She might have seen the lights flashing on a wall, without actually looking out a front window.

The short time between Cutcher's statement and W-18's observation of Smith approaching, suggests to me that Cutcher didn't see the police car arrive. She must have become aware of it as she walked from room to room.






Offline whonoze

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #158 on: February 07, 2013, 09:24:06 AM »
@ DiwataMan:

I re-post here a comment for you from Amsterdam, posted to the whonoze blog with a request i pass it along here:

---
I don’t have a user id on Talk Left and registration has been disabled. But I’ve been reading the clubhouse comments and Diawataman is missing some information.

In Smith’s narrative in the policereport, he writes that after he arrived at the complex, he was dispatched to w3′s address on TTL. You can find that dispatch information in the 911 logs in the 7th supp. in the log that was opened for W3. Before he got out of the car he was dispatched to W19′s address on RVC. The dispatch and arrival times coincide with the time W3 says she can see an officer now. W3 had moved from the upstairs room in the back of her house to the upstairs room in the front, facing TTL to call 911.

We had an extensive discussion after we found the report stating that the video was 18 min off. We tried the 6:48 time, but everything seemed out of synch.
We then went back to the 911 logs and the police report to find information about Ayala and Raimondo. Ayala responded to w19′s address on RVC and parked his car next to Smith’s. He has a new dispatch time once he arrived at the complex, he fails to report an arrival time.

Raimondo also is dispatched to a specific address once he arrives at the complex, he asks Smith whether he should turn right or left at the front gate. Smith tells him to go left.

Raimondo’s information had the least ambiguities. His car would’ve been the second car after the car we thought belonged to Smith. Working back from those headlights arriving at the front gate we had a video start time of 6:46:40. That start time put Smith’s car just out of W3′s line of vision when she told 911 she could see the police. We adjusted 4 sec to 6:46:36.

You can find the new dispatch times for Ayala and Raimondo. If you check the video Smith was driving where you would expect him, you will see the headlights of a car arriving at the front gate when Ayala should have been there, and you see the headlights of a car at the front gate when Raimondo should have been at the front gate.

The bonus we got when we tried this start time was W18 saying I can hear the sirens just as the EMV’s are seen near the front gate. After they turn left on RVC and are passing W18′s RVC address, she states that the EMV’s are in front of her house now.

We got the time right on those videos. You move it 20 sec and lights are out of synch. We may be off 4, 5 seconds tops.

---

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #159 on: February 07, 2013, 10:16:34 AM »
whonoze, I've already included much of the information on my blog. I'll be including and editing more as I revisit it. It's just tedious is all and in the end really doesn't amount to anything like I said at the beginning of all of this on here, like I also said many months ago elsewhere. I'm sure if I went and looked at whoever that is and their site they'll have plenty of things "missing". Or is that just coming off a comment on your site or something? Doesn't matter but yes I'll include more of what you have in that comment if it makes you all happy.  :P

Offline whonoze

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #160 on: February 07, 2013, 10:41:36 AM »
is that just coming off a comment on your site or something?

Yes. Amsterdam wanted to post it here, but isn't registered.

I relayed because you seem unconvinced Smith went down TTL, and there is apparently official documentation that he did, beyond the visual evidence.

I certainly don't expect you to make me happy DM, but you had expressed some interest in revisiitng the audio/video sync question, and the post supports the 16:34 figure as opposed to 18:00.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #161 on: February 07, 2013, 11:05:05 AM »
I certainly don't expect you to make me happy DM,
I don't expect either of you to make me happy by answering the question I keep asking about the videos:  Who cares, and why?

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #162 on: February 07, 2013, 11:31:02 AM »
Yes. Amsterdam wanted to post it here, but isn't registered.

I relayed because you seem unconvinced Smith went down TTL, and there is apparently official documentation that he did, beyond the visual evidence.

I certainly don't expect you to make me happy DM, but you had expressed some interest in revisiitng the audio/video sync question, and the post supports the 16:34 figure as opposed to 18:00.

I'll just save myself the trouble and screencap the reports and such into the blog. I didn't express interest. Just when I thought I was out but they pulled me back in! ::) And no, I'm not convince that is Smith driving down Twin Trees but it could be.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #163 on: February 07, 2013, 12:57:06 PM »
I don't expect either of you to make me happy by answering the question I keep asking about the videos:  Who cares, and why?

Because they are evidence.

I don't know much about them. I feel, rightly or wrongly, that this is a significant gap in my knowledge of the case. Maybe they will ultimately be of no significance. I feel I need to know more about them before making such a conclusion.

I was surprised to find that one of the cameras has a view of the mail shade. I guess I assumed this would be big news if it were true. So when I've seen it mentioned a couple of times, I thought the person was mistaken or joking.

The view of the mail shade refutes a subset of timeline/route theories, which had Martin, after passing Zimmerman at the clubhouse, walk down the sidewalk by the clubhouse and enter the mail shade from the clubhouse side.

Offline MJW

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Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
« Reply #164 on: February 07, 2013, 02:38:30 PM »
Is there documentation in the discovery or elsewhere on whether Timothy Smith approached with lights, or lights and siren?

 

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