Author Topic: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."  (Read 10832 times)

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Offline nomatter_nevermind

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"He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« on: February 28, 2013, 09:12:24 PM »
This comes up now and then in threads where it isn't on topic, so I think it needs it's own.

2/27/12, 1:12-25
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Brandy Green: He don't know anybody here. He just came down here. He was bored. So he walked to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting out on the porch. And this man killed him? Are you serious?

3/22/12, 1:29-44
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Tracy Martin: It wasn't even a football length's field, football field length, away from the back door. About seventy yards. Seventy yards at best. He was trying to get home. Right down the street. We was sitting out on the back.

3/22/12, 0:35-44
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Tracy Martin: I don't know the exact path he took, but he did come in that back gate. And I know he was going to the back of the house. He was sitting out there.

It is often suggested that these statements indicate that after Trayvon Martin visited the 7-11 on 2/26/12, he returned to the townhome and sat on the patio for a time, before the shooting. This doesn't make sense to me.

None of the statements say explicitly that Martin reached the townhome. Two imply that he did not.

Brandy Green
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He was on his way back home.

Tracy Martin
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He was trying to get home.

The lawyers speaking for the family, have consistently maintained that Trayvon was on his way home at the time of the shooting. This is also the position of the prosecution's Affidavit of Probable Cause.

Sitting on a patio in the rain, even a covered patio, doesn't seem likely to me. The wind would blow the rain in and the seating would get wet.

How would Brandy and Tracy know that Trayvon was sitting on the patio? They say they were out, and Chad says he didn't see Trayvon after he left for the 7-11. Maybe they aren't all telling the truth, but I know of no actual evidence for that.

Brandy was speaking on the very day she learned of Trayvon's death. Tracy lost his own son. To me it seems clear that their minds wandered in their grief, making context-free allusions to some earlier occasion. In one of the quotes, Tracy said that 'We was sitting out on the back', not Trayvon alone.

Offline MJW

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2013, 09:46:52 PM »
Brandy was speaking on the very day she learned of Trayvon's death. Tracy lost his own son. To me it seems clear that their minds wandered in their grief, making context-free allusions to some earlier occasion. In one of the quotes, Tracy said that 'We was sitting out on the back', not Trayvon alone.

It does seem quite strange that both their minds would wander back to the same image of Martin sitting on the  porch.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2013, 09:56:27 PM »
It does seem quite strange that both their minds would wander back to the same image of Martin sitting on the  porch.

We don't know that it was the same image. They may have been thinking of different occasions when he was sitting on the patio.

He may have been spending most of his time on the patio, talking on the phone to his friends in Miami.

Without knowing more about such things, I don't think we are in a position to say it is strange.

Offline MJW

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 10:14:26 PM »
We don't know that it was the same image. They may have been thinking of different occasions when he was sitting on the patio.

I didn't mean their two images were synchronized to the second. I just meant it's weird they both had mental cutaways to Martin sitting of the porch. That one of them would do so strikes me as slightly odd. That they'd both do so is oddness squared. Even if he sat on the porch all day, I'd still find it strange they'd both bring it up in that context.

Offline unitron

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2013, 07:33:37 AM »
I think their reaction was more along the lines of "Old man Miller's dead?  But I was talking to him in the grocery store just yesterday!", than an intended chronologically consistent statement of fact.

Offline leftwig

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2013, 12:12:26 PM »
I don't think I've heard anyone other than Brandy or Tracy suggest TM was actually sitting on the porch that night after returning from the store.  Tracy and Brandy made those comments the day after the shooting.  They likely were not aware of exactly what time the shooting occurred or what time TM may have returned home from the store.  Brandy immediately follows up the comment of "he was just sitting out on the porch" with "AND this man killed him".  The use of "and" indicates a follow up/continutation of a previous comment and in general, belongs to the comment immediately proceeding.  Do we know this is what she meant?  No, but I think its as reasonable as any other conclusion.  I also think Tracy's second quote you provide appears to be him saying TM was sitting on the back porch upon returning.  What would sitting on the back porch weeks/months earlier have to do with knowing TM would have come in the back gate that night? 

This is clearly speculation because neither of the two provide any explanation for their comments, but I can think of a couple of reasons they may have thought TM was on the porch before GZ killed him.  One is that TM may have left something there.  I know many question this since he had juice and Skittles in his pocket so why wouldn't he drop everything off if he dropped something off.  But what was missing from his possession was anything else.  This is not yet in evidence, but I think there is some circumstantial evidence that he likely had something else with him as he started his journey home.  The only other thing from the 7/11 found on his person was a lighter which appears to be something he had with him versus acquired. 

The other possibility is he got in the back door and let Chad know he was back, but was heading back out and Chad told Brandy and Tracy this.  I know Chad has not said this occurred, but I think its a distinct possibility that Chad hasn't let us in on everything he knows about that night.  He says he called TM to see when he was getting back from the store and TM said he was on his way back.  Now, I've been really hungry before and I really like Skittles, but I have to imagine Chad called TM because he was interested in more than when his Skittles would arrive (worried, knew TM was out to get something more than Skittles, etc).  Chad was concerned enough to call him and find out when he'd be home roughly an hour or so from when he left, but never bothered trying to call him again or figure out what happened to him until Tracy and Brandy got back around 3 hours later?  Emergency vehicles were in the area for hours and he had no idea they were there?  Also said TM went to the store to get a snack and Chad asked for the Skittles.   TM was walking 1.5 miles round trip on a cool overcast/rainy night because he wanted a snack, but didn't get one?   His story is very brief and makes very little sense.

Offline MJW

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2013, 12:39:12 PM »
I think their reaction was more along the lines of "Old man Miller's dead?  But I was talking to him in the grocery store just yesterday!", than an intended chronologically consistent statement of fact.

But neither phrased it that way. If they'd said, "Just yesterday Trayvon was sitting on the porch," there'd be no question about what they meant. Both stated it as if it were at the time Martin was shot.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2013, 02:09:26 PM »
Tracy and Brandy made those comments the day after the shooting. 

Sorry, that's not correct.

The dates are in the first post.

Brandy's comment was the day after the shooting, 2/27. Both of Tracy's were on 3/22, over three weeks later. I know of no others.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2013, 07:50:19 PM »
One of the links in the first post is already broken. Here's the replacement.

MSNBC, 3/22/12, 1:41-56
Quote
Tracy Martin: It wasn't even a football length's field, football field length, away from the back door. About seventy yards. Seventy yards at best. He was trying to get home. Right down the street. We was sitting out on the back.

Offline whonoze

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2013, 11:49:54 PM »
Both stated it as if it were at the time Martin was shot.

I'm sorry, but that's just false. In Brandi Green's comment as shown on the Fox 35 news clip, it is actually quite clear that she means it as NMNM has interpreted it. If you listen to ALL the 911 calls, you will hear over and over that people do not use proper verb tenses in describing dramatic events. For example, (just one of many), John says "There's two guys wrestling" in his backyard, and a guy "is screaming" in his 911 call which was placed AFTER the gunshot, so he meant two guys WERE wrestling and someone WAS screaming. There is no more to Brandi Green's language than there is to John's, which is nothing at all. This is just how people talk. Their minds run ahead of their tongues, they draw different associations, shift focus in mid-sentence, and things come out quite differently than they would if the speakers were setting their thoughts down in written language. Green is not being literal, her comment is clearly figurative as well as being abbreviated. 'Sitting on the porch' is a trope for Trayvon being at rest, minding his own business, in terms of his behavior not just earlier in that day, but since he had been in Sanford. To take her words literally here is utterly without warrant.

Offline MJW

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2013, 01:29:56 AM »
I'm sorry, but that's just false. In Brandi Green's comment as shown on the Fox 35 news clip, it is actually quite clear that she means it as NMNM has interpreted it.

It isn't false. Nothing in the video gives a different impression than the quote:

Quote
Brandy Green: He don't know anybody here. He just came down here. He was bored. So he walked to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting out on the porch. And this man killed him? Are you serious?

The examples you give, such as "There's two guys wrestling," have nothing to do with it. Those are a standard English device called "narrative present tense" which is often used when relating dramatic events (and telling jokes). Green uses the past progressive ("was sitting") and past tense ("killed'). It isn't the verb tense, anyway; it's the way she seems to associate the two actions.

I've said in the past, and I'll say again, that I think most likely she was just thinking of some past occasion, unrelated to the time of the shooting. But it's still odd, and made much odder by Tracy seeming to do the same.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2013, 02:28:16 AM »
I've said in the past, and I'll say again, that I think most likely she was just thinking of some past occasion, unrelated to the time of the shooting. But it's still odd, and made much odder by Tracy seeming to do the same.

It could just be that Tracy and Brandy had recently talked to each other about Trayvon's porch sitting activities so it was fresh in both their minds. Maybe he spent a lot of his time sitting on the porch. There are any number of rational explanations. Still, either Trayvon was hiding for several minutes near the T or he walked/ran somewhere to eventually end up back there. Without the GPS data we may never really know his exact movements. I find witness #2 seeing (more hearing) a figure running north past her window interesting. I've always thought that might be Trayvon running from Brandy's house along the east side houses to finally confront George. George did indicate Trayvon came up to him from the East/SE. Heck, maybe he did make it to the porch then went back to confront George. If so how the heck would Tracy or Brandy know he did?

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2013, 03:19:42 AM »
They lie so who we'll never know. Just from these videos Tracy says if Trayvon had 2 minutes his life would be spared. Well we know Trayvon ran while George was sitting in his truck, was probably a 10 second run away from home and had at least 3 minutes.

Brandy says Trayvon "donít know anybody here". Really? Then who are these kids:

March 22, 2012 - Sanford, FL, USA - [KATHLEEN FLYNN l Tampa Bay Times].OT_351910_FLYN_trayvon_2 (3/21/2012, Sanford).James Young, 13, left, and his cousins ferternal twins T.J. Jones and T.Y. Jones, both 14, live in The Retreat at Twin Lakes where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in Sanford on March 21, 2012. Trayvon was killed on his way home from buying snacks at a local Seven Eleven. The boys said they played football with Trayvon whenever he was in town visitng his dad. They said he was always nice to them.
http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/42-33532854/trayvon-martin-memorial-

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/trayvon-martins-killing-shatters-safety-within-retreat-at-twin-lakes-in/1221799

Or the guys at the 711?

And why does Tracy say to the Sharpton crew Trayvon came in the front gate but to the Sentinel crew he says back gate?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 03:21:44 AM by DiwataMan »

Offline FromBelow

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2013, 04:06:22 AM »
They lie so who we'll never know. Just from these videos Tracy says if Trayvon had 2 minutes his life would be spared. Well we know Trayvon ran while George was sitting in his truck, was probably a 10 second run away from home and had at least 3 minutes.

Dee Dee also said that Trayvon kept moving. Walking, not running. Nothing in what she said suggests Trayvon was hiding from George. So unless she's lying, or Trayvon lied to her which would make everything he told her suspect, Trayvon was going somewhere but ultimately ended up right back at the T.

Heck, he would have easily gotten to the house before George even finished the NEN call if that was his intent. Which, IMO, makes the NEN operator George's alibi. He obviously wasn't pursuing Trayvon during the call. We would have heard it. And since Trayvon was walking somewhere (according to DD) it's obvious the house wasn't his intended, or at least final, destination. George was where he should have been if his story about returning to his truck is true. Trayvon wasn't where he should have been if his intent was to just get back to the house and watch the game.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2013, 07:25:42 AM »
Quote
And why does Tracy say to the Sharpton crew Trayvon came in the front gate but to the Sentinel crew he says back gate?

In that video interview he is talking about the back gate while pointing towards the front gate.  I have always thought that it was probably because he was coming off the freeway on his visits and used the back gate as his primary entrance.  The proximity of the Green TH to the gate is much closer and ease of access to/from the freeway. 

 

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