Author Topic: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case  (Read 12506 times)

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Offline MJW

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2013, 12:27:26 PM »
It's not a loaded word. It's an accurate description.

I sometimes check S.I. Hayakawa's book Use the Right Word: A Modern Guide to Synonyms when I want to make sure a word means what I think it means. Here's the entry for recant.

Recant once indicated the solemn retracting of a heresy by a former adherent. Witches were required to recant publicly or be hanged. It still applies to the reputation of a doctrine or ideology and is more forceful than retract in suggesting a total disavowing or abject capitulation, including an admission of past guilt and an implied promise to foreswear the error in the future: those who recanted Communism after the infamous nonaggression pact.

That's certainly how I interpret the word. If W6 admitted he had lied, and it was actually Zimmerman raining down blows on Martin, recant would apply. Saying he wasn't certain, not so much.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2013, 10:11:36 PM »
People can say black is white until the cows come home. Anyone who cares can listen to the recordings and decide for themselves.

What's funny, is that I hear the same nonsense from the 'other side', about W-2.

W-6 recanted 'raining down blows MMA style'.

W-2 recanted 'two guys running' and 'fistfight'.

If anyone doesn't like it, tough.
http://www.farmissues.com/photos/uploadimages/ofacd058a.JPG



 ;)  Their...heeee....rrrrreeeee.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2013, 02:28:28 AM »
There was no recanting by witness 6 or 13. Neither changed the most critical elements of their accounts. W-6 didn't budge from his assertion that during the struggle (in which someone cried out for help) Trayvon was in black and on top of Zimmerman whose shirt or jacket was red. W-13 didn't change his account of what he saw or what Zimmerman said, he just provided his perception of Zimmerman's demeanor when later asked.

As to witnesses 2 and 12, see here.

Offline unitron

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2013, 11:56:32 AM »
There was no recanting by witness 6 or 13. Neither changed the most critical elements of their accounts. W-6 didn't budge from his assertion that during the struggle (in which someone cried out for help) Trayvon was in black and on top of Zimmerman whose shirt or jacket was red. W-13 didn't change his account of what he saw or what Zimmerman said, he just provided his perception of Zimmerman's demeanor when later asked.

As to witnesses 2 and 12, see here.

If you leave in the "raining down blows MMA style" (or however W6 really said it), then you've got a good probability that Martin started the physical contact, you've got Zimmerman being on the losing end of things just before pulling his gun and shooting, and you've got Martin very unlikely to be aware of the gun.

Would you have sufficient faith in your MMA-style blows to leave the other guy's hands free to pull out his gun?

But if you change it to "he was on top with his arms extended", you increase the possibility that Martin was aware of the gun and was trying to keep Zimmerman's arms pinned while he, Martin, yelled for help because he feared getting shot.

I think maybe that is the change of a critical element.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2013, 12:20:44 PM »
Witness #6 seemed to say it was 50-50 whether Zimmerman was actually being hit or just being held down.  It was too dark to make out moving arms.  Since the defense doesn't have the burden of proof in the trial, this is good enough for them.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2013, 12:42:52 PM »
But if you change it to "he was on top with his arms extended", you increase the possibility that Martin was aware of the gun and was trying to keep Zimmerman's arms pinned while he, Martin, yelled for help because he feared getting shot.

I think maybe that is the change of a critical element.

Odd that TM, when calling out for help to John, didn't mention that GZ had a gun. Did he expect John to just wade in without giving him a warning that GZ was armed? Also odd that if his greatest fear was getting shot that he never mentioned it in any of his screams for help. Not even a simple "Help! He's got a gun!" IMO, there's absolutely nothing to support a theory that TM was aware GZ had a gun until the last few seconds. If you have some evidence to support the theory I'd like to hear it.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2013, 01:29:48 PM »
The more detailed that W6 can get, the better it is for the defense.  Clearly he sees TM on top, the prosecution really doesn't attempt to counter it.  He said he saw TM throwing down blows MMA style, prompted by the police interviewer or not, he agreed that it fit the description of what he saw.  The prosecution attacked this because of the lighting and angles that W6 said he first noticed them.  They questioned whether he could see anything specific or heard skin to skin contact.  He conceded he didn't hear that and it seems to me thought about his choice of words and the conditions that given TM's back to him shielding what he was seeing, he could not say with certainty that TM was actually connecting with any blows or even that no blows were thrown and it was just forcible restraint.  I think a demonstration by W6 is in order. 

I have a difficult time buying that its TM calling to W6 for help for multiple reasons.   As mentioned, he's clearly in the dominant position and if he is asking for help because he sees GZ's gun, you'd think he'd mention it or at least say to call 911.  Also, W6 said his back was to him, so I'd at least look at the guy he's seeking help from.  GZ wouldn't mention 911 because he had already called them and they were on the way and being in a defensive position would need immediate help.   We can't say with absolute certainty who called out to W6 for help, but using reason and logic, we can make a pretty good guess.  Austin also said initially the guy in red on the ground was screaming, though I'm not sure how much weight to give his statements (ie, he either didn't get that good of a look, or is leaving out some details since he doesn't mention seeing anyone else).

Offline unitron

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2013, 02:54:20 PM »
If I were trying to keep someone from getting to a gun I feared would be used on me, I'm not sure just how coherent my screams of terror would be.

If I were not aware of the gun I might still be trying to keep pinned the arms of someone who considerably outweighed me that I was afraid was going to hit me.

I wasn't there, I didn't see how things started or who first laid hands on whom, and was not in a position to tell who did what screaming and hollering,  but to me raining punches down on Zimmerman versus just trying to keep his arms pinned is a distinction with a difference.

Offline MJW

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2013, 03:04:29 PM »
If I were trying to keep someone from getting to a gun I feared would be used on me, I'm not sure just how coherent my screams of terror would be.

If I were not aware of the gun I might still be trying to keep pinned the arms of someone who considerably outweighed me that I was afraid was going to hit me.

You really don't think you'd mention the gun if you were on top, holding down someone with a gun? I can't imagine that I wouldn't.

It might very well make sense that Martin would try to pin Zimmerman's arms even if he knew nothing of the gun. It doesn't make sense that he'd be desperately screaming for help.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2013, 03:27:19 PM »
If I were trying to keep someone from getting to a gun I feared would be used on me, I'm not sure just how coherent my screams of terror would be.

So you believe someone who was in the dominant position as you propose in your theory (being on top of GZ and having GZ's arms pinned) and having already gotten in a few good shots (evidenced by GZ's injuries and the state's admission that TM hit GZ) without being injured himself, would be screaming incoherently in terror? Never once would he say something like "Don't shoot me!" or "He's got a gun!"? Ok, but that seems like a very unlikely scenario to me.

Quote
If I were not aware of the gun I might still be trying to keep pinned the arms of someone who considerably outweighed me that I was afraid was going to hit me.

See above.

Quote
I wasn't there, I didn't see how things started or who first laid hands on whom, and was not in a position to tell who did what screaming and hollering,  but to me raining punches down on Zimmerman versus just trying to keep his arms pinned is a distinction with a difference.

Oh, it's a difference. But that John is only 50% certain there was hitting going on doesn't mean there wasn't hitting going on. It doesn't make the physical evidence of hitting going, GZ's injuries and the state's admission that TM hit GZ, magically disappear.

EDIT: Dang I need to type faster. RickyJim beat me last time and MJW did this time.

Offline unitron

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2013, 05:18:39 PM »
...
It might very well make sense that Martin would try to pin Zimmerman's arms even if he knew nothing of the gun. It doesn't make sense that he'd be desperately screaming for help.

If he figured not keeping Zimmerman's arms pinned would result in Zimmerman using those arms to inflict a severe beating on him, I don't see why he wouldn't call for help, and I'm not sure he'd have been able to keep those arms pinned forever or would have believed that he could.  Martin's arms may have been longer, but that doesn't mean he had greater upper body strength.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2013, 05:24:48 PM »
If he figured not keeping Zimmerman's arms pinned would result in Zimmerman using those arms to inflict a severe beating on him, I don't see why he wouldn't call for help, and I'm not sure he'd have been able to keep those arms pinned forever or would have believed that he could.  Martin's arms may have been longer, but that doesn't mean he had greater upper body strength.

Right, because the dominant guy that's beeen dominant for a minute or so, hasn't been injured and has made his opponent bloody, is afraid of a severe beating. Are you kidding me with this crap?

Offline SuzieTampa

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2013, 05:51:45 PM »
Returning to the subject of this thread: Cashill lost me as soon as I saw that he thought Obama has a "weakness for racial agitation." Although I disagree with a number of things Obama has said on race, I hardly consider him a racial agitator.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2013, 06:01:41 PM »
Returning to the subject of this thread: Cashill lost me as soon as I saw that he thought Obama has a "weakness for racial agitation." Although I disagree with a number of things Obama has said on race, I hardly consider him a racial agitator.

Honestly, while I believe there is a political component to GZ's arrest and charge, I don't think this guy is involved in it or the case in general. I don't see much of a reason in discussing him, his views or his politics. But NMNM was right, the dominant conversation should be happening on the witness #6 thread. Can I use the defense that even Jeralyn seemingly went off topic?

Offline unitron

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Re: Jack Cahill Working on Book About the Case
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2013, 06:18:47 PM »
Honestly, while I believe there is a political component to GZ's arrest and charge, I don't think this guy is involved in it or the case in general. I don't see much of a reason in discussing him, his views or his politics. But NMNM was right, the dominant conversation should be happening on the witness #6 thread. Can I use the defense that even Jeralyn seemingly went off topic?

I'm willing to stipulate that she led me astray.

 ;D

 

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