Author Topic: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12  (Read 25074 times)

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Offline who007

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2013, 12:16:36 AM »
So maybe I jumped too soon to the conclusion that the other complex story probably wasn't made up.  Tracy might have known that Trayvon liked to take the shortcut through Colonial Village when he went to the mall and fed that information to DeeDee.  Oh, do I wish that GPS data was available.   :(
In that 284 page discovery dump, it was noted by Brandy Green's son (page 39) Trayvon had only   been to 7-11 once before.

Brandy Green stated she did not know of Trayvon ever having been to the 7-11 before (page 32).

It was that interview we also learned the night before the dad had been staying at a hotel, and that the weekend of the incident was the first time TM had been there without his father there.  Green said in the past year and a half, TM had been to her residence about 7-8 times, always with the dad.

Offline MJW

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #106 on: April 02, 2013, 12:27:03 AM »
In that 284 page discovery dump, it was noted by Brandy Green's son (page 39) Trayvon had only   been to 7-11 once before.

Brandy Green stated she did not know of Trayvon ever having been to the 7-11 before (page 32).

It was that interview we also learned the night before the dad had been staying at a hotel, and that the weekend of the incident was the first time TM had been there without his father there.  Green said in the past year and a half, TM had been to her residence about 7-8 times, always with the dad.

It kind of seems to me that if I were trying to find a quick route to avoid getting rained on, I wouldn't wander into complex if I didn't know my way around. That would apply double if I were on my way back, since I'd have no expectation of finding a direct path from the other community into my own.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #107 on: April 02, 2013, 12:53:47 AM »
Has anyone figured out if she's indicated, via call start and dropped or stop times, the total length of time Trayvon reported being watched?

The phone data aren't much help here. Remember that the start time of a call can only be estimated within a minute, and the end time within two minutes.

Dee Dee said Martin was about to start walking from the mail shade just before the connection dropped. That could have been as early as 7:11:01, or as late as 7:12:59, except that we know the next call connected at that time or earlier.

Dee Dee said Martin started running some time after the phones reconnected, which could have been as early as 7:12:00. (By the NEN recording, Martin started running about 7:11:40.)

I think the events Dee Dee described in this interval, their conversations, the dropping and restoring of the phone connections, the hoodie adjustment, could have been accomplished in two minutes or less, but that's a rough guess.

Discussion of related matters, starting here.

Offline unitron

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #108 on: April 02, 2013, 01:04:33 AM »
De la Rionda implied that was her idea.

He also "implied" a hospital stay, as I recall, and we know how reliable that info was.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #109 on: April 02, 2013, 01:33:40 AM »
I think its quite possible it had been released to Crump that GZ says he first spotted TM by Taffe's.

Serino could have mentioned it to Tracy in their 2/28 briefing.

Quote
What would be the best story to put forth that would make TM walking by Taffe's house seem benign?

Wouldn't it be better to say that Trayvon actually used the shortcut? The letter says 'he decided to find a shortcut', then never mentions the shortcut again.

Btw, I think this is the first appearance of the word 'shortcut' in the discovery.

I wouldn't assume that the 'shortcut' that Trayvon 'decided to find' was the same 'shortcut' that has been touted in the media. I wouldn't assume that it was a shortcut from Colonial Village to RATL.

Why would Trayvon need to 'find' the shortcut? If he was taking the shortest route through Colonial Village, the 1460/1510 cut-through would have been right in front of him. Keeping to the route and direction one is already on is not usually described as a 'shortcut', even if it is the shortest way. What is being cut?

To put it another way, Trayvon, in this scenario, would have already taken a 'shortcut' by deciding to go through Colonial Village. After making that decision, he couldn't cut his route to RATL any shorter.

The letter doesn't say when Trayvon passed from 'another complex' to RATL. It would be more consistent with Dee Dee's later statements for that to happen before Trayvon reported being watched or followed.

In the letter, Trayvon wasn't being followed after 'he decided to find a shortcut', then was being followed again, and then came the confrontation. That means that 'he decided to find a shortcut' corresponds to Trayvon running in the later statements. Again, that suggests Trayvon was already inside RATL when 'he decided to find a shortcut'.

The letter doesn't say the shortcut Trayvon 'decided to find' was a shortcut from 'another complex' into RATL. The letter doesn't say what the shortcut would have been from or to, or if Trayvon ever found it, or if it actually existed. It is a mysterious, Twilight Zonish shortcut.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #110 on: April 02, 2013, 02:30:26 AM »
He also "implied" a hospital stay, as I recall, and we know how reliable that info was.

I don't recall if de la Rionda commented on that or not.



Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #111 on: April 02, 2013, 07:03:02 AM »
Are you sure they aren't talking about the Colonial Village front gate and videos thereof?

Because I'm sure they know the TRATL front gate cameras weren't working, we've known that since hearing George tell the police that in the recordings of his interviews with them.  Remember him talking about the contact guy for the company responsible and they bring him his phone so he can give them the guy's number?

I am more interested in the Lake's Edge Video.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #112 on: April 02, 2013, 07:31:38 AM »
Wouldn't it be better to say that Trayvon actually used the shortcut? The letter says 'he decided to find a shortcut', then never mentions the shortcut again.

I take her account of TM finding a short cut and going through a neighboring complex to cover using the shortcut by Taffe's house.  I wouldn't expect her to say TM said he walked by Taffe's house.  If TM had used a cut through from the main street, he likely wouldn't have gone by Taffe's, but the one closer to the street.  To imply that TM was using the shortcut into RATL specifically by Taffe's would be more readily acceptible if TM was cutting through the neighboring complex.  Thats what the letter gives us.  I would think if this letter was written by her, or at least dictated by her, from her recollections, I would think that this point would be something she recalls readily and deems important (this letter was written 3 weeks after the fact).  Its a mystery as to why this detail was only ever mentioned in this letter and I think that makes the inclusion of this detail questionable.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #113 on: April 02, 2013, 07:38:51 AM »
I am more interested in the Lake's Edge Video.
Editing by quoting myself.

http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/like-a-shed/


Offline cboldt

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #114 on: April 02, 2013, 07:42:07 AM »
I take her account of TM finding a short cut and going through a neighboring complex to cover using the shortcut by Taffe's house.  I wouldn't expect her to say TM said he walked by Taffe's house.  If TM had used a cut through from the main street, he likely wouldn't have gone by Taffe's, but the one closer to the street.  To imply that TM was using the shortcut into RATL specifically by Taffe's would be more readily acceptible if TM was cutting through the neighboring complex.  Thats what the letter gives us.  I would think if this letter was written by her, or at least dictated by her, from her recollections, I would think that this point would be something she recalls readily and deems important (this letter was written 3 weeks after the fact).  Its a mystery as to why this detail was only ever mentioned in this letter and I think that makes the inclusion of this detail questionable.

She gives the "decided to find a shortcut" event after she says Martin apprised her that somebody was watching her.  I think the reference describes Martin going between two of the buildings at RTL (no concrete or other "designated walkway"), an opening that is toward Brandi's house, relative to the Tee location.  By Zimmerman's account, Martin makes an effort to evade observation - either running or skipping away.

I don't think the "decided to find a shortcut" refers to any location outside of RTL.

Separately, and nitpicky, it's hard to find a shortcut in the dark.  Not so hard to take one, if you know roughly where it is, or it's obvious (like cutting diagonal across an open space, like a parking lot).

Offline leftwig

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #115 on: April 02, 2013, 08:27:30 AM »
She gives the "decided to find a shortcut" event after she says Martin apprised her that somebody was watching her.  I think the reference describes Martin going between two of the buildings at RTL (no concrete or other "designated walkway"), an opening that is toward Brandi's house, relative to the Tee location.  By Zimmerman's account, Martin makes an effort to evade observation - either running or skipping away.

I don't think the "decided to find a shortcut" refers to any location outside of RTL.

Separately, and nitpicky, it's hard to find a shortcut in the dark.  Not so hard to take one, if you know roughly where it is, or it's obvious (like cutting diagonal across an open space, like a parking lot).

Sorry, I confused the point in my post.  Going through another complex because it started to rain was "finding a short cut", but not the one she referred to later (after he was being watched).  Its my belief that W8 mentions going through another complex to justify why he would have been seen by GZ next to Taffe's house which would have been a short cut to get home from the store.  I think her later use of the words "decided to find a short cut" match the timeline in later accounts of him "about to run from the back" after being followed.  She also mentions "started walking" as an indication that he either stopped running or started moving before being followed.

On another note, I find it interesting that she says "started walking" in reference to a change in TM's  movements.  Might be an indication that "started walking back again" as used in the BDLR interview refers to a change in direction and not simply a change in how fast he was moving in a continuing direction.  The two distinct phrases used by the same person to describe movement seems to be an indication of them having different meanings.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #116 on: April 02, 2013, 12:20:00 PM »
RJ,

If DD was actually related to Trayvon it would explain a great deal about why people were using a 'nickname' and her name being redacted from the letter.

EDIT to clarify: It wasn't her nickname that was redacted as BDLR seems to suggest. It was her real name as it should be. My primary point is it would explain all the secrecy surrounding her including refusal to give out her address and all the other crap. The defense has to know who DD really is at this point, right?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 12:27:34 PM by FromBelow »

Offline leftwig

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #117 on: April 02, 2013, 01:58:26 PM »
The part about what was said after Zimmerman got out of his car is different from the quote from the April 3, 2012 Reuter's article.  The Facebook entry seems to be the earliest account appearing in any media.  I suppose though that there is no obvious connection between the cousin and DeeDee.

I am not sure if I get what point you are making (are you talking about Dee Dee's account not matching Tracy's on Apr 3, or Tracy's early account not matching his later one?), but let me point out that in these accounts, Tracy is relaying information that he has heard second and third hand.  We know that there is nothing in GZ's story that has TM saying "Why are you following me?".  What would be great to have would be a recording of exactly what Serino told Tracy.  It could be that Serino told Tracey about the portion of the NEN call establishing that GZ followed TM at some point and Tracy just completely jumbled this into Trayvon asking GZ why he was being followed, putting that question where GZ said TM came up to his vehicle.  Or maybe, Tracy threw in words from W8's account which included "what are you following me for?".  I tend to think Tracy jumbled the two accounts because he does seem to have the gist of TM's words to GZ right before the fight begins, "Whats your problem homes?" and GZ's response, "I don't have a problem".  The fact that he got that later exchange pretty much dead on, tells me that the earlier conversation came from another source. 

IT would be interesting to know when Tracy first uses the question "Why are you following me" when describing the events to anyone.  I do think this March 9 face book post sounds a lot like his rendition from the conversation with Serino, so if the post is real and was made on March 9, where is it most likely Tracy would have heard that TM said "Why are you following me?".  Again, Serino might have mentioned that GZ followed TM (its clear that he did), but I think its pretty unlikely that they said TM asked GZ this question.  Chalk it (what Serino actually told Tracy) up to another one of those things that we'll never know for sure.

FWIW, the first mention I could find of Tracy mentioning TM asking GZ why he was being followed in the press was March 28 and roughly coincided with the release of the police station video.


Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #118 on: April 02, 2013, 04:40:09 PM »
I have removed Ricky's post quoting a cousin of Travyon Martin on Facebook, and comments in response, that were brought here from another site.  Do not out people here or link to their social media accounts. It is a violation of their privacy if they are not a witness in the case whose identity has been publicly disclosed.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Witness 8 Letter Dated 3/19/12
« Reply #119 on: April 02, 2013, 07:48:09 PM »
I wouldn't bet the farm that its inclusion actually does make sense. I'm not certain BDLR didn't toss it in on the theory (as advanced by the Orlando Sentinel reporter)  that because it's more or less consistent with W8's other versions, it corroborates her account.

As I suggested earlier in the thread, I am of the opposite view. I think the letter is a negative for W-8's credibility. That the prosecution thinks so too, is evidenced by their releasing it before Easter weekend, and burying it in a document about another matter.

That suggests that their stated reason for including it is a pretext. People usually like for their pretexts to appear to make some sense. And the only way I can make sense of their stated reason, is if the 'nickname' appears on the letter.

 

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