Author Topic: Voice ID experts  (Read 22412 times)

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Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #105 on: May 27, 2013, 03:13:23 PM »
W-11also identified George by name as the one screaming - Help as he was being pummeled.

She was talking about what she believed after the fact. She didn't say she recognized Zimmerman's voice.

Serino had asked her about other witnesses.

W-11/SPD, 2:48-3:19. 

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #106 on: May 27, 2013, 06:59:28 PM »
IIRC, Robert Zimmerman, Sr. said, under oath, that he'd heard his son George scream for help before.

I remember hearing him say that.

Video and transcript of the second (6/29/12) bond hearing are oddly hard to find. The best I could do was a 51 minute YouTube that doesn't include any of Robert Sr.'s testimony. (The first few minutes are from the end of the reenactment, with Zimmerman talking about his injuries.)

The 6/29 hearing was nominally the subject of one of the forum's first threads. It started after the hearing was over. It has discussion of several bond-related issues, but not much information about the events of the hearing.

Offline DiwataMan

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #107 on: May 27, 2013, 07:38:51 PM »
I remember hearing him say that.

Video and transcript of the second (6/29/12) bond hearing are oddly hard to find. The best I could do was a 51 minute YouTube that doesn't include any of Robert Sr.'s testimony. (The first few minutes are from the end of the reenactment, with Zimmerman talking about his injuries.)

The 6/29 hearing was nominally the subject of one of the forum's first threads. It started after the hearing was over. It has discussion of several bond-related issues, but not much information about the events of the hearing.

I have audio only on that one, missed a bit at the beginning. RZsr @1:51:49
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/my-posts-parent-page/george-zimmerman-case/george-zimmerman-case-hearings/

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #108 on: May 27, 2013, 07:48:20 PM »
I have audio only on that one,

Thanks.

I should remember to check your site on such occasions.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #109 on: May 27, 2013, 07:51:00 PM »
Quote
“It was absolutely George’s” voice screaming on the tape, his father testified, saying he had heard his son yell “many times” before.

De la Rionda asked how his son could have been screaming for help if, as Zimmerman told police, Trayvon had his hand over his mouth and nose.

“From the extent of my son’s injuries,” Robert Zimmerman Sr. said, “Trayvon Martin’s hands were not just on his nose and mouth.”

Both lawyers agreed that there are several inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s various statements to police

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/06/29/2873593_p3/judge-to-decide-again-whether.html#storylink=cpy
Judging from the recent revelations about Trayvon Martin, I wouldn't be surprised if Sybrina Fulton says he screamed a lot also.  It could be that screams differ much less from person to person than regular speech.  I am hoping that a Frye hearing will give us an education on this.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #110 on: May 28, 2013, 06:47:21 AM »
Cutcher, for example, didn't see the altercation, and doesn't know the natural voices of either Martin or Zimmerman, but she claims Martin was the screamer because the screams sounded like a little boy, and she saw Zimmerman standing over Martin some half a minute or more after the shot was fired.

I don't think Cutcher saw anything. On 2/26/12 she reportedly told SPD Officer Jonathan Mead that she didn't witness anything (18/184).

On her 911 call she can be heard asking Mora 'is it the black guy that got shot or is he the one - ?'

Substituting Mora for Cutcher, why do you think it took her half a minute to get from her kitchen counter to her back door?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 06:54:30 AM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #111 on: May 28, 2013, 09:18:21 PM »
If SPD was serious about trying to get a match that would facilitate scientific analysis, they'd play the recording for Zimmerman as a cue.

FDLE (p. 12 of the March FDLE report). It was on 3/22, the same day they downloaded Zimmerman's phone and Corey took over the case.

How do you know Zimmerman didn't hear the recording before the recreation?

Offline cboldt

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #112 on: May 29, 2013, 03:33:54 AM »
How do you know Zimmerman didn't hear the recording before the recreation?

We may be talking about two different things.  I was thinking of a "cue" whereby the police play the scream, and instruct George to "scream like that."  Make an effort to recreate the sound, like one does when practicing a musical instrument of voice passage.  Play the original for Zimmerman, record an attempt to recreate the original, play the recreation for Zimmerman so he can compare his attempted recreation to the original, repeat as necessary.  In other words, try to make the recreation sound the same as the original, using a feedback loop as a tool.

The only evidence I have that this wasn't done is the disparate duration of the original and recreation screams.  I think most people (even children in the 4-5 year old range), given the feedback loop, would get closer to matching the duration than Zimmerman did.

Your question appears to me, to be whether or not Zimmerman ever heard the recording, before he was asked to scream.  We know he did.  He was asked if he recognized the voice and he said "that doesn't sound like me" or similar.

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #113 on: May 29, 2013, 07:17:22 AM »
People always say that when they hear recordings of their voice.

Offline Evil Chinchilla

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #114 on: May 29, 2013, 10:24:38 AM »
We may be talking about two different things.  I was thinking of a "cue" whereby the police play the scream, and instruct George to "scream like that."  Make an effort to recreate the sound, like one does when practicing a musical instrument of voice passage.  Play the original for Zimmerman, record an attempt to recreate the original, play the recreation for Zimmerman so he can compare his attempted recreation to the original, repeat as necessary.  In other words, try to make the recreation sound the same as the original, using a feedback loop as a tool.

The only evidence I have that this wasn't done is the disparate duration of the original and recreation screams.  I think most people (even children in the 4-5 year old range), given the feedback loop, would get closer to matching the duration than Zimmerman did.
I've always suspected he was instructed for some reason to do it the way he did it.

That maybe they thought he needed to be enunciating distinct little "help me" phrases so they could get a clear sample of the various forms of those two words to compare to the 911 call, when comparing patterns in whatever analysis they're subjecting the sound files to (and I don't really know how this works, other than that sounds can be translated into visual patterns for comparison).

I've got to be honest: if you told me "Five bucks if you scream,"  I wouldn't be able to do a real scream, just say "eeee" somewhat louder than my normal volume. For some reason, I just can't intentionally do one on request. But if you whacked me in the shin with a baseball bat, I'd definitely be able to scream.

So I can sympathize with someone not being able to scream convincingly when asked to, even if they've got everything riding on it.

However, I've also always thought it unlikely that George actually thought that chain of little staccato "help-me-help-me-help-me"s sounded anything like what he was doing that night. You'd think he'd at least attempt to go "helllllpppp," regardless of how convincingly distraught it sounded.

That's why I think he was instructed to repeat short bursts of "help me".

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #115 on: May 29, 2013, 05:18:56 PM »
Your question appears to me, to be whether or not Zimmerman ever heard the recording, before he was asked to scream.

Sorry. I shouldn't have assumed you would take for granted that I understood what you meant.

Quote
The only evidence I have that this wasn't done is the disparate duration of the original and recreation screams.

I would say that is weak evidence for accusing people of not being serious.

Quote
He was asked if he recognized the voice and he said "that doesn't sound like me" or similar.

SPD 2/29-3, 16:42-17:19
Quote
Serino: Let's play this one.

[W-11's 911 call.]

[Recording off.]

Serino: You hear that voice in the background?

Zimmerman: No, sir.

[911 call. Talk continues over recording.]

Serino: That's you.

[Call continues]

Serino: Are you hearing yourself?

Zimmerman: It doesn't even sound like me.

Serino: It's you.

Offline Philly

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #116 on: June 05, 2013, 09:50:12 AM »
I haven't seen mention of this here, but Ed Primeau did a 2013 follow-up article and youtube video regarding scream identification.

http://www.audioforensicexpert.com/tag/ed-primeau/

He now takes into account Zimmerman's examplar, and appears to back off the certainty of his initial conclusions.  The youtube video speaks for itself - the "real" screams are elongated, but almost exactly the same pitch.  Some of Ed's verbage describing the significance of the voice idenfification is similar to O'Mara's.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's an expert that O'Mara has considered using in the Frye hearing.

On related note, the "bicycle video" recovered from Trayvon's phone is likely (given that we know of only two videos on the phone) the one that was used by the state's experts as a sample of Trayvon's voice.  O'Mara described Trayvon as laughing as the fight occured.  The state reports refered to "high frequency laughs, exclamations and mocking utterances" from Trayvon.

Hmm.  AJ could tell us how close he got.  IIRC I thought he was an octave away from some of the 911 screams.  Of course O'Mara could ask an expert to see if could get George to match the screams.  Then the prosecution would demand a Frye hearing to see if that was admissible.  ;D

Offline Raoul

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #117 on: June 05, 2013, 10:23:51 AM »
@RichardHornsby tweets Fla. adopts Daubert standard for admissibility of Scientific Evidence. Governor signed the bill. He had previously written this. http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2013/05/moving-the-goalposts-in-the-george-zimmerman-trial/

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #118 on: June 05, 2013, 10:39:35 AM »
I haven't seen mention of this here, but Ed Primeau did a 2013 follow-up article and youtube video regarding scream identification.

http://www.audioforensicexpert.com/tag/ed-primeau/

He now takes into account Zimmerman's examplar, and appears to back off the certainty of his initial conclusions.  The youtube video speaks for itself - the "real" screams are elongated, but almost exactly the same pitch.  Some of Ed's verbage describing the significance of the voice idenfification is similar to O'Mara's.  I wouldn't be surprised if he's an expert that O'Mara has considered using in the Frye hearing.
They are not the same pitch (fundamental).  That should be obvious to the tinniest of ears.  Also the spread of frequencies is much larger for the 911 screams than the exemplar.  Only a charlatan would try to compare them.  They were made under completely different conditions.  To have any scientific value, you would have to get Zimmerman to match the original screams much better than a random sample of other males could with the same number of trials after listening to the original.  If I were the defense I wouldn't touch this guy with a 10 foot pole.  His previous "analysis", based on the relative ages of Zimmerman and Martin, was a disgrace.  Read what Dr. Rose of the Australian National University thinks of the "critical listening skills" method.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Voice ID experts
« Reply #119 on: June 05, 2013, 11:22:13 AM »
@RichardHornsby tweets Fla. adopts Daubert standard for admissibility of Scientific Evidence. Governor signed the bill. He had previously written this. http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2013/05/moving-the-goalposts-in-the-george-zimmerman-trial/
Somehow O'Mara should make a request that the hearing be based on Daubert.  It might be too late to file a motion.  I suppose he can do it as the hearing starts tomorrow.  As Hornsby told me, the state would probably have to agree.  But them not agreeing would be quite telling.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 11:34:37 AM by RickyJim »

 

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