Author Topic: Thoughts on Week One of Trial  (Read 18929 times)

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Offline cboldt

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2013, 04:37:03 PM »
That is the problem. I believe walking around with a deadly weapon should require someone to exercise more caution. Many legal actions we take increase our exposure to civil liability. In my opinion, if it has to be legal, carrying a gun should be one of them.

The exposure to liability is only realized if the weapon is drawn, or drawn and fired.  In other words, merely carrying does not increase risk the same way that other common actions, like driving a car, increase risk.  That's because driving a car is an act that involves controlling deadly force that is being deployed.  A weapon in your pocket (even a knife or a pencil) is passive until you choose to use it as a weapon.

Drawing or drawing and firing always creates a risk of civil and criminal liability.  I think it is safe to assume that even a justified draw or draw and fire will result in criminal and civil liability, even if the law says otherwise.  I think an armed person, other than a police officer, who uses force in defense of another, is a fool.  I carry, and the last thing I would do is intervene in any other person's trouble.  I would not assist law enforcement either.  I'm a chicken, will run and hide.  Showing force of arms WILL result in criminal charges.  Unless it is my hide on the line, nobody will know I was armed and could have helped.

People who carry are generally precluded from undertaking the fairly common acts of being verbally obnoxious, or crowding people's personal space without touching them.  Giving up the right to taunt people, call them names, verbally harass them and otherwise be a pest is a form of exercising more caution.

Anyway, you have your wishes.  Carrying arms does increase the risk of liability, all around.  Responsible people who carry arms will tend to tamp down bad scenes, or leave them.  Should I have the misfortune of drawing the attention of an irresponsible armed person, and cannot extract myself, at least I have a fighting chance of living to see another day.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2013, 05:12:02 PM »
I'm actually not very savvy about cell phones.
Ditto.  I am still surprised that evenif they could download the memory, they couldn't find out the phone number of the last call. 

Offline jjr495

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2013, 05:12:24 PM »
Anyway, you have your wishes.  Carrying arms does increase the risk of liability, all around.  Responsible people who carry arms will tend to tamp down bad scenes, or leave them.  Should I have the misfortune of drawing the attention of an irresponsible armed person, and cannot extract myself, at least I have a fighting chance of living to see another day.
Many thanks for that informative reply.
I certainly had no intention to trigger a gun debate so much as to explain why the jurors, even the one that had a concealed weapon permit, may not be too happy with GZ's actions. 

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2013, 05:33:31 PM »
I certainly had no intention to trigger a gun debate so much as to explain why the jurors, even the one that had a concealed weapon permit, may not be too happy with GZ's actions.
I'm not happy with his behavior but I still can't figure out how his self defense claim could be proven unreasonable if one takes into account the screams and Good's testimony.  The jury, though, might disregard how big a burden the prosecution has if they grow to dislike Zimmerman and like Martin's family.  At least one lawyer covering the case, Richard Hornsby, thinks they will give the family a "culpable negligence" booby prize, a misdemeanor which might mean 6 months in jail for Zimmerman.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2013, 05:34:02 PM »
Many thanks for that informative reply.
I certainly had no intention to trigger a gun debate so much as to explain why the jurors, even the one that had a concealed weapon permit, may not be too happy with GZ's actions.

I think you're on a false premise.



Offline jjr495

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2013, 05:34:42 PM »
Because I see Bernie bellowing and dancing and talking over witnesses and never getting spoken to about it.
I have found BDLR to be somewhat agreeable when the jury is in the room and not so much when they are gone. I have seen him smile a few times, and his self-deprecating bald dude joke was funny. I expected him to really be nasty to Good, but he wasn't that bad. In fact, I thought Good appeared to like BDLR more than OMara.
Dorival's cross was very helpful to the defense, because she was about the only witness in the first week to say that GZ was a decent (and meek) person.
The HOA president sure was sour toward the defense. I expected the defense to ask about the HOA's insurance premiums after the settlement.

Offline jjr495

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2013, 05:46:04 PM »
I'm not happy with his behavior but I still can't figure out how his self defense claim could be proven unreasonable if one takes into account the screams and Good's testimony.  The jury, though, might disregard how big a burden the prosecution has if they grow to dislike Zimmerman and like Martin's family.  At least one lawyer covering the case, Richard Hornsby, thinks they will give the family a "culpable negligence" booby prize, a misdemeanor which might mean 6 months in jail for Zimmerman.
Interesting. I didn't know that could be a lesser included charge. I had thought some form of manslaughter was the only other option.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2013, 05:46:53 PM »
I certainly had no intention to trigger a gun debate so much as to explain why the jurors, even the one that had a concealed weapon permit, may not be too happy with GZ's actions.

It's a fairly common reaction, unhappiness at Zimmerman.  I find it misplaced unhappiness, and lay the blame at Martin's feet.  People do not have the right to strike people, even if the person is staring at your girlfriend or daughter's boobs or butt.  Martin had no right to punch Zimmerman in the nose.  I do not believe, not one little bit, that Martin was afraid.  I do not fault Zimmerman for trying to be a good neighbor.

I do agree, however, that this legal outcome, Zimmerman being on trial and being criticized for getting out of his truck, cuts against people who carry guns.  And I'm not saying that Zimmerman was irresponsible, just admitting that the social result partially cuts against the right to be armed for self defense.  Judging from the results of Florida's introspection on SYG law, I think those who think the law creates some incentive to use deadly force are a small minority.

I don't think the jury is going to convict Zimmerman.  It doesn't matter if they find he did nothing wrong (which is how I see it), or if they find getting out of the truck was wrong.  What is going to be inescapable (I think the deed is already done) is that credible evidence creates a possibility that Martin committed a bigger wrong, and that the state did not prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman was not in fear of serious injury or worse.

Offline MJW

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2013, 05:49:27 PM »
How could it be happenstance?  When TM ran to an area where he couldn't be followed by car, who got out of the car and ran behind him?  That was a deliberate action, not something accidental.

What evidence do you have that GZ ran behind Martin? If GZ had run up to the "T" he would have been out of breath. Do you really believe GZ intended to catch up to Martin? If so, what's your evidence for that implausible belief. If it wasn't happenstance (and I doubt it was), they met because Martin wanted them to meet.

Offline redstripe

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2013, 05:56:29 PM »
I'm not happy with his behavior but I still can't figure out how his self defense claim could be proven unreasonable if one takes into account the screams and Good's testimony.  The jury, though, might disregard how big a burden the prosecution has if they grow to dislike Zimmerman and like Martin's family.  At least one lawyer covering the case, Richard Hornsby, thinks they will give the family a "culpable negligence" booby prize, a misdemeanor which might mean 6 months in jail for Zimmerman.

I think this is the difficult part at this point, as the jury's gotten some insight into the dubious circumstances surrounding RJ's initial statements to crump, heard about Tracy Martin's less-than-favorable utterances in the court bathroom and trying to play up TM or his relationship with his family favorably has the potential to open some evidentiary doors that they really don't want to open.

Offline MJW

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2013, 05:58:44 PM »
Tracy Martin's less-than-favorable utterances in the court bathroom

That was discussed outside the presence of the jury.

Offline redstripe

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2013, 06:00:26 PM »
That was discussed outside the presence of the jury.

My bad, strike that.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2013, 06:01:00 PM »
At least one lawyer covering the case, Richard Hornsby, thinks they will give the family a "culpable negligence" booby prize, a misdemeanor which might mean 6 months in jail for Zimmerman.

His explanation is, well, actually, he has not explained it, nor has he described the legal framework that (supposedly) admits it.

First, the jury would have to reject that the use of deadly force was justified.  Edit to add, this means that the jury will have to conclude that the state has disproved Zimmerman's contention his use of force was justified, and the disproof is beyond a reasonable doubt.

Second, the judge would have to find both that the charging document, the information, recites the elements that comprise culpable negligence; and that the case includes some evidence for each element.  Culpable negligence is a permissive lesser included offense, which causes those two legal hurdles to exist under Florida law.  Hornsby needs to walk through the elements of culpable negligence, and show how the charging document and evidence stack up against that criminal offense.

To further show that he hasn't done his homework, there are various levels of culpable negligence.  Culpable negligence that actually causes injury carries a sentence of one year.  Hornsby has been asserting that if he gets convicted of culpable negligence, Zimmerman will get 60 days.

The fact pattern in the Gibbs case has Gibbs (a nasty lady, by my reckoning) knocking an old lady on her butt, after an exchange of words started by Gibbs.  The old, fat lady had some medical problems, and had a heart attack half an hour later.  I can understand the jury having a hard time concluding that death is a reasonably foreseeable consequence of shoving somebody; and other than the heart attack, the dead lady didn't have any injuries.  So, they convicted Gibbs of a negligent act that exposed the victim to injury - that is the crime with a 60 day sentence.  Edit to add, the jury rejected Gibbs self defense claim - the only person who said she didn't start it was her friend.  Other witnesses said Gibbs was the first to use force.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 06:08:28 PM by cboldt »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2013, 06:04:54 PM »
How could it be happenstance?  When TM ran to an area where he couldn't be followed by car, who got out of the car and ran behind him?  That was a deliberate action, not something accidental.
Is this an argument about semantics?  I think two guys wandering around a very dark area, not being able to see each other, bumping into each other after 4 minutes can be regarded as a happenstance.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Thoughts on Week One of Trial
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2013, 06:09:23 PM »
Is this an argument about semantics?  I think two guys wandering around a very dark area, not being able to see each other, bumping into each other after 4 minutes can be regarded as a happenstance.

So Martin can't see Zimmerman's little flashlight, right?

 

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