Author Topic: Your Theories  (Read 26650 times)

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Offline RickyJim

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Your Theories
« on: July 05, 2013, 09:18:21 PM »
One thing I think I understand better after the last two weeks of testimony is the game Zimmerman and Martin were playing against each other from the first sighting at Taaffe's house up to their meeting at the T when things got deadly serious.  Here are their moves which I think are clear from the evidence.

1. Zimmerman stops his Ridgeline near his friend Frank Taaffe’s house to watch Martin loitering in the rainy darkness. He heads away towards the the clubhouse to call the cops.
2. Instead of taking the quick diagonal shortcut by the lake, to get to his father’s girlfriend’s house, Martin follows Zimmerman to the clubhouse and passes close to the truck, checking the creepyass cracker out and tugging at his waistband. Martin then turns into Twin Trees Lane in the direction of home.
3. While still on the phone with the police dispatcher, Zimmerman decides to follow Martin on TTL. He loses sight of him and stops the Ridgeline some feet from a cut through between TTL and Retreat View Circle with headlights on, pointing into the cut through.
4. Martin comes out of the darkness and circles the truck. Zimmerman is too frightened to open his window and say anything to him. Martin runs into the cut through and turns right into a dog walk leading to the back of his destination. However Zimmerman thinks he is heading for the back entrance.
5. Instead of waiting for the cops to come and search the area, as he had done previously when sighting suspicious persons, Zimmerman gets out of the truck and heads into the cut through. He has never adequately explained his reasons.  We all know the outline of the rest and the how their game ended.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 10:14:20 PM »
Zimmerman stops his Ridgeline near his friend Frank Taaffe’s house to watch Martin loitering in the rainy darkness.

I don't know of any evidence that GZ stopped. He said he slowed down because someone was backing out in front of him (SPD 2/29-1, 8:19).

Quote
However Zimmerman thinks he is heading for the back entrance.

I don't think GZ said that. On the NEN call, GZ referred to the back entrance to indicate the direction TM was heading. He didn't speculate on where TM intended to go. (2:08)

I don't think GZ mentioned the back entrance at all in his SPD Interviews, including the reenactment and the CVSA.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2013, 12:19:52 AM »
This is speculation and not evidence. I have moved it from the Evidence thread.   It also contains some interpretative rather than factual assessments.

You can also use this thread to post other theories on the trial and evidence,.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 12:25:11 AM by TalkLeft »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2013, 08:45:06 AM »
I don't know of any evidence that GZ stopped. He said he slowed down because someone was backing out in front of him (SPD 2/29-1, 8:19).


I infer that he stopped from Jeantel's testimony and Martin's subsequent known behavior.  There had to be a period of Zimmerman starring at Martin of sufficient length to annoy the latter.

Quote
I don't think GZ said that. On the NEN call, GZ referred to the back entrance to indicate the direction TM was heading. He didn't speculate on where TM intended to go. (2:08)

I don't think GZ mentioned the back entrance at all in his SPD Interviews, including the reenactment and the CVSA.
I think I remember a point in the CVSA interview in which Zimmerman said he didn't think it was dangerous to walk in the cut through to RVC because "they always run away" or something to that effect.  I thought we were in agreement that his motivation in going to RVC was because of the streetlamp, near the intersection with TTL, which illuminated the way to the back exit.

Offline unitron

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2013, 09:46:19 AM »


...There had to be a period of Zimmerman starring at Martin of sufficient length to annoy the latter.

Since Martin was a teenager, about 1 second would have been sufficient.

I think I remember a point in the CVSA interview in which Zimmerman said he didn't think it was dangerous to walk in the cut through to RVC because "they always run away" or something to that effect.  I thought we were in agreement that his motivation in going to RVC was because of the streetlamp, near the intersection with TTL, which illuminated the way to the back exit.

TTL and RVC do not intersect anywhere near where Zimmerman allegedly walked across from TTL to RVC.

Do you mean a streetlight down near where TTL crossed RVC south of Brandy Green's house?

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2013, 10:08:24 AM »
NMNM has posted a picture of the streetlamp near where RVC meets TTL near the back entrance.  I trust he will post it again when he sees this.  That area would certainly be visible from the RVC end of the cut through.  On a related matter, Officer Tim Smith testified that after he entered TRATL through the main entrance, he followed TTL around to the south end of the dog walk and pointed his headlights north and was able to make out two figures (Zimmerman and Manalo) near the T.  Then he parked near the cut through on RVC to enter the shooting area.  I guess he knew the complex pretty well.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 10:13:22 AM by RickyJim »

Offline unitron

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2013, 10:16:14 AM »
Thanks, RJ , that's much more clear.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2013, 10:27:38 AM »
Streetlight, TTL and RVC near back gate.

Google Earth street view

Google Earth overhead

For evidence that the shadow in the yellow oval is characteristic of streetlights, check out the whole photoset.

Enlarge a photo by left clicking. Right click for a menu.

Officer Tim Smith testified that . . . he parked near the cut through on RVC to enter the shooting area.

I thought he parked in front of W-19's unit, 2821 RVC. That's five units south of the cut through.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2013, 12:44:49 PM »
I think Zimmerman started the physical confrontation.  The sole reason I think this is because Martin was on the phone.  I can imagine Martin asking "Why are you following me?" -- but I think Zimmerman was the one to escalate it at that point. 
 

Define "started the physical confrontation".   I understand GZ was around 200 lbs and TM around 160, but GZ was 5'7.5" and TM 6'2" ish (based on 711 clerk being 5'10" and TMs parents saying he was 6'2"-6'3").  TM was wearing baggy clothes and a couple of sweatshirts and as seen in the 7-11 video didn't look like a skinny kid.  I don't see that GZ being that much smaller looking than TM would have started anything with him.  Also, GZ had plenty of opportunities to start something with him.  He could have done it at Taffe's, probably by the clubhouse and probably along TTL, but he didn't.  Instead, he rolled up his window and calmly talked with Sean.  I don't see that GZ gave any indication he was interested in starting something with TM. 

I do think he wanted to do what he could to make sure TM didn't get away before police arrived.  I think he got out of his vehicle to try and keep an eye on him.  I think he loitered around the 'T' mainly to see if TM would reveal himself again.  I do believe he eventually went to get that address on RVC, but it wasn't while on the call with Sean.  I think TM surprised him as he was walking back along the 'T'.  I think whether you believe the wording of the conversation as presented by W8 or GZ, it was TM that initiated the confrontation and was the aggressor.  I think W8 did hear some bumping and movement, but had no idea who was doing what. 

« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 02:07:37 PM by TalkLeft »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2013, 05:17:30 PM »
I thought he parked in front of W-19's unit, 2821 RVC. That's five units south of the cut through.
That's right.  Ofc. Smith originally was given 1231 Twin Trees (Lauer?) when when he got there an update said to go to 2821 RVC.  To correct something I said before.  He used the spotlight on the top of his car to illuminate the dog path area between the houses while on TTL.  He didn't need to point the headlights into it.

Offline MJW

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2013, 10:57:10 PM »
After all is said and done, the fighting and other character references for both individuals are not going to be allowed.  The State ginger-footed around by just asking for the Voice ID.  That narrowed the scope for response by The Defense.

The state already got in GZ's "MMA training." That should at least allow in Martin's fighting experiance.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2013, 09:17:31 AM »
   

Rachel said he started it.  He says TM started it.  Both are liars but I believe her more since she made the "closet" statement. 



After Rachel testified that GZ "started it" she admitted that the sounds she heard could have been 1000 different things.  She has no idea who started it because she wasn't there and didn't see it.  She believes GZ started it, even though she states TM confronted verbally first.  I am not sure how much we can believe GZ since its human nature to want to protect your hide, but I don't believe Rachael has any idea who made the first physical move.  I see no evidence that GZ started the physical confrontation.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2013, 12:08:50 PM »
It seems RJ (Dee Dee was quite accomplished at embellishing details to support her fabrications

From BDLR Interview  http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/deedeestatetranscript.pdf

BDLR: Were you able to go to the funeral or to the wake?
Dee Dee: I was goin’ to go, but…
BDLR: OK, what happened?
Dee Dee: I didn’ feel good.
BDLR: OK, did you end up going to the hospital or somewhere?
Dee Dee: Mmmm…Yeah, I had high blood pressure.

r perhaps you think she could forget going to the hospital and missing the wake and funeral more easily than one could forget a brief digression from the course work four years earlier?


Offline MikeB

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2013, 01:21:23 PM »
When someone lies to me a couple of times I stop trusting them. Especially when they say "trust me".

What I find strange is that many of these people's stories have "evolved". George Zimmerman's hasn't.

What do you think the TM defenders's reaction would be if GZ refused to talk with anybody for two weeks, and instead of talking to the police, went to his lawyer first - as Rachel has done. It's an incredible double standard.

Further, had GZ gotten every detail correct, his detractors would have accused him of repeating a scripted narrative because it's simply not plausible to get every detail correct.

Offline Evil Chinchilla

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2013, 01:42:45 PM »
She told white lies.

Only if you dismiss them as such. Some of us, however, expect the prosecution's star witness who connects all the dots to be exactly as described and 100% truthful.

Much of the rest of her story can be confirmed with GZ's story:  the rain, the mailboxes, "he ran," etc.

Yeah, the parts that were already available to Ben Crump and the public prior to her first testimony on 3/19/12.

Hell, I could've told the same story RJ did on 3/19/12, based on what I knew from media accounts and what I knew Crump needed to press the case forward.

However, I would've stuck to the script a lot better than she did.

 

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