Author Topic: Your Theories  (Read 24129 times)

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Offline Lousy1

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2013, 02:11:05 PM »


Hell, I could've told the same story RJ did on 3/19/12, based on what I knew from media accounts and what I knew Crump needed to press the case forward.

However, I would've stuck to the script a lot better than she did.

I would love to be a fly on the wall for the phone interview. I envision a Crump representative penning note after note in cursive while gesticulating wildly.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 02:18:35 PM by Lousy1 »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2013, 02:37:39 PM »
That's right.  Ofc. Smith originally was given 1231 Twin Trees (Lauer?)

Lauer was 1211 TTL. 1231 TTL was W-3. The third digit is the number of the unit, counting from the north on TTL.

It goes the other way, south to north, on the part of RVC opposite that part of TTL. So W-19 was 2821, and the Manalos were 2861. Brandy Green was 2631, the middle unit of a 5 unit building, two buildings south of the 28X1 building.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2013, 02:41:40 PM »
Jujube has been banned for impermissible character attacks on Zimmerman (his weight) and other reasons. Her objectionable comments in this thread have been deleted, as have comments quoting the objectionable portions of her comments or responding with similar impermissible attacks on the other side.

The judge has ruled the text messages on Martin's phone are inadmissible. Same for his suspension and school records and marijuana use prior to Feb. 26.  See her order of June 5, 2013 on the state's motion in limine, which is the written ruling on the matters addressed on May 28.

She reserved ruling on whether Martin's alleged history of fighting, use of social media and use of marijuana on Feb. 26. can come in.

The video on his phone was not admitted into evidence.

Your theories must be based on the evidence presented at trial. That is what the jury will be deciding the case on. If the defense succeeds in admitting evidence previously ruled inadmissible or on which she reserved ruling, it can be brought up then.

These are trial forums. Your theories must be based on the evidence presented at trial. The state's case is over (except for rebuttal.) The defense has only presented two witnesses so far.

Character attacks based on inadmissible evidence against either side are not allowed here.



« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 02:45:58 PM by TalkLeft »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2013, 06:35:48 PM »

What I find strange is that many of these people's stories have "evolved". George Zimmerman's hasn't.

I don't agree.

My opinion is that George Zimmerman's story has evolved in more ways than I will be able to enumerate before this day is over. But I will do my best.

Non-emergency Call, 1:57
Quote
Zimmerman: No. You go in, straight through the entrance, and then you make a left. You go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Sh*t. He's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down toward the other entrance to the neighborhood.

In two days of questioning, 2/26-27, George Zimmerman did not admit to seeing Trayvon Martin run. On the first day, he would not admit to seeing TM heading 'down toward the other entrance to the neighborhood' at any pace.

SPD 2/26-1
Quote
Singleton: Is he walking completely around the car?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: OK.
Zimmerman: And, dispatch asked me where he went. I didn't know the name of the street that I was on.
Singleton: So you had come off your street and gotten to another street - 
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: - at some point? OK.
Zimmerman: Goes in, cuts in, through the middle of my neighborhood.
Singleton: OK.
Zimmerman: I didn't know the name of the street, or where he went.
Zimmerman: So I got out of my car, to look for a street sign, and to see if I could see where he cut through so that I could tell the police [crosstalk].

SPD 2/26-2, 3:36
Quote
Singleton: OK. Is he circling your car?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: Are you still on the phone -
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: - with the dispatch? OK. Are you giving them a description or anything -
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: - of what's going on? OK. Where does he go where you lose sight of him again?
Zimmerman: He walked back into the darkness here.
Singleton: He went there? OK.
Zimmerman: And, sorry.
Singleton: He walks back in here?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: Does he make the turn? Does he go - ? 
Zimmerman: I don't know.
Singleton: You don't know. By the time he gets here you can't see him?
Zimmerman: Correct.

Written Statement, 2/26/12, pp. 1-2
Quote
I told the dispatcher what I had witnessed, the dispatcher took note of my location & the suspect fled to a darkened area of the sidewalk, as the dispatcher was asking me for an exact location the suspect emerged from the darkness & circled my vehicle.

The suspect once again disappeared between the [illegible]  of some houses.

Reenactment, 3:46
Quote
Zimmerman: And then he came back, and he started walking up towards the grass, and then came down and circled my car. And I told the operator that. He was circling my car. I didn't hear if he said anything-
Sgt. Smith: Right.
Zimmerman: -but he had his hand in his waistband. 
Sgt. Smith: Mmhmm.
Zimmerman: And I, I, I think I told the operator that. And, they said "Where are you?" And I could not remember the name of the street.
Sgt. Smith: Mmhmm.
Zimmerman: Because I don't live on this street.
Sgt. Smith: Right.
Zimmerman: Retreat View Circle goes in a circle.
Sgt. Smith: Right.
Zimmerman: And I said "I can't, I don't know." And he goes, "We need an address." And I said, "I don't know an address." I think I gave them my address. And they said, "Give us directions to get to you." And I said, "If you tell the police to go straight at the clubhouse, and make a left, my truck will be there." And again they asked me where he went and what direction he went in. And I said "I don't know."

CVSA, 28:41
Quote
And I got out of my car to look for a street sign, so that I could at least tell them what street I was on. And, there was no street sign, and I couldn't make out the house in front of me because there was a big pickup truck there. So, I knew if I, I saw him walk through the cut-through, and then make a right, behind other houses.

Later in the CVSA interview, GZ would admit that his headlights illuminated the cut-through, which he had claimed was in darkness in his earlier interviews and written statement.

CVSA, 39:48
Quote
Erwin: Why did you try to maintain such close proximity to him?
Zimmerman: To tell the police where he, what direction he was headed in.
Erwin: Didn't you feel like you were putting yourself in danger?
Zimmerman: No. Because I, where I was parked, my headlights were lighting, illuminating. And, I saw him turn, down, and by the time I was on the phone with the non-emergency, by the time I got to where he was at, I felt like he had already made his way.

After two more days, on 2/29/12, Singleton confronted GZ with his own statement that TM ran. GZ's response is interesting. He did not struggle to remember, nor claim memory loss. He just admitted the truth, immediately and effortlessly.

SPD 2/29-1, 22:46
Quote
Singleton: Then, then, does, do you say he ran?
Zimmerman: Yes.

Later that day, Serino asked GZ for more detail.

SPD 2/29-3, 5:40
Quote
Serino: OK. Full sprint? Full on flight? Jogging? Trotting? Describe the run.
Zimmerman: I don't remember. I just, because I was on the phone. It happened so quickly.
Serino: Well, I understand that, George, but, like I said, it's, if it was a bicycle theft I could say "OK", but, it's kind of important. I mean, was he running as to evade you, get away from you, maybe got tired of getting wet in the rain. What kind of run was it? I mean, it sounds like he's running as to, get away from you.
Zimmerman: I don't know why he was running.
Serino: But what kind of run was it? Can't say?
Zimmerman: I don't remember.
Serino: OK.

Sean Hannity Interview, 7:00
Quote
Zimmerman: Maybe I said running, but he was more -
Hannity: You said he's running.
Zimmerman: Yes. He was like skipping, going away quickly. But he wasn't running out of fear.
Hannity: You could tell the difference?
Zimmerman: He wasn't running.

GZ's story went from TM running, to TM walking, to TM running in a manner and for a motive on which GZ could say nothing, to TM 'like, skipping', to TM maybe running but not 'out of fear', to TM definitely not running.

More to come.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2013, 10:44:42 PM »
Continuing with my opinions on the evolution of George Zimmerman's story.

SPD Interviews

Written Statement (2/26W)

Reenactment (2/27R)

CVSA (2/27V)

In the SPD interviews, Zimmerman's reasons for being suspicious of Martin were discussed at least five times, and mentioned briefly in his written statement. He gave at least ten reasons.

:: Martin was walking 'leisurely' and 'casually', not appearing to be trying to get out of the rain. (2/26-1, 4:08-4:47; 2/26-1, 10:25-52; 2/26W; 2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/27V, 25:36-26:28, 6:44:13-45:05; 2/29-1, 8:03-53; 2/29-3, 0:51-1:18)

:: Martin was walking on the grass, not on the sidewalk. (2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/29-1, 8:03-53)

:: Zimmerman didn't recognize Martin. (2/26-1, 4:08-4:47; 2/27R, 0:00-1:35)

:: Martin was 'looking around', 'kept staring around him', or 'kept shifting where he was looking.' (2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/27V, 25:36-26:28, 6:44:13-45:05; 2/29-3, 1:32-41)

:: Martin looked at Zimmeran, or 'kept looking' or 'kept staring' at him. (2/26-1, 4:08-4:47; 2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/29-1, 8:03-53; 2/29-3, 0:51-1:18)

:: Martin was 'looking at all the houses', or 'looking into the houses.' (2/26-1, 4:08-4:47; 2/26-1, 10:25-52; 2/26W; 2/29-3, 0:51-1:18)

:: Martin was walking in front of, or looking at, or looking into, 1460 RVC, where Zimmerman had previously called in a suspicious person. (2/26-1, 10:25-52; 2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/29-1, 4:21-5:23; 2/29-1, 7:41-54; 2/29-1, 8:03-53) That person was later arrested for burglarizing a nearby house. (2/29-1, 7:18-40)

:: Martin stopped in front of 1460 RVC. (2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/29-1, 8:03-53)

:: Zimmerman knew Martin didn't live at 1460 RVC. (2/27V, 25:36-26:28, 6:44:13-45:05; 2/29-1, 4:21-5:23)

:: There had been 'a history of break-ins' at a house near 1460 RVC. (2/27R, 0:00-1:35)

Sean Hannity Interview, 4:05
Quote
I felt he was suspicious because it was raining. He was in between houses, cutting in between houses. He was walking very leisurely for the weather.

Martin walking 'leisurely' and 'casually' in the rain, may have been the most frequently mentioned reason for suspicion in the SPD interviews. I don't believe that Martin being 'in between houses, cutting in between houses', was ever mentioned in this connection in the SPD interviews, including the reenactment and the CVSA, or in Zimmerman's written statement for the SPD.

In the reenactment, Sgt. Smith asked Zimmerman if Martin was between houses (0:07-0:21).
Quote
Sgt. Smith: And, what was he, was walking in between the buildings, or - ?

Zimmerman: He was walking like in the grassy area, like, up towards, kinda between these two poles. Like I said, it was rainy. And he wasn't, he was just leisurely looking at the house.

Zimmerman did speak of losing sight of Martin between houses (2/26-1, 10:59-11:17).

He seems to have meant the cut-through. At the earliest, it was after Martin walked past his truck in the clubhouse parking lot, where Zimmerman had parked for the purpose of calling in his suspicions.

That will have to do for today. I need to get some sleep before court starts tomorrow.

More to come.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2013, 10:55:12 PM »
NMNM is on a mission.  He is a happy man!!!   8)

Making my OCD look better day after day.

 ;)

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2013, 11:46:37 PM »
NMNM is on a mission.  He is a happy man!!!   8)

Making my OCD look better day after day.

 ;)

I seem to recall you in the cheering section when I went after Jeantel, known to us then as W-8 and 'DeeDee'.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2013, 06:08:19 AM »
NM, shouldn't these posts be stand alone in a thread of their own?

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2013, 07:05:31 AM »
5'11" 158 LBS.  TM's size at the time of autopsy.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 01:21:30 AM by TalkLeft »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2013, 04:39:30 PM »
What I find strange is that many of these people's stories have "evolved". George Zimmerman's hasn't.

I hoped I would have time to post a few more responses to this before the trial was over. But I always knew the series wouldn't be done by then, that is, now. I knew that by the time I completed it, the matter might well be of only historical interest. But I have always been more of a history buff than a trial buff. My intention was, and is, to complete the series.

I originally intended to do this chronologically. I overlooked some points, and so I am backtracking a bit. The points I am taking up in this post are, I now think, where I should have begun.

Non-emergency Call, 0:17-25

Quote
Zimmerman: This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining, and he's just walking around, looking about.

This was all the explanation GZ gave the NEN dispatcher for why he called TM in as suspicious person.

Later in the NEN call, GZ would say of TM: 'He's here now, and he's just staring, looking at all the houses.' (0:41) To me the 'here now' suggests an update, not additional explanation for GZ making the call over half a minute earlier.

Contrary to some early reports, GZ was not questioned at the shooting scene, except for Ofc. Smith asking who shot TM.

From Surdyka's 911 call, it seems Smith led GZ away from the scene about 7:23 PM, about 6 minutes after the gunshot.

SFD pronounced TM dead about 7:30, and went to attend to GZ. All of them were asked by FDLE what questions were put to GZ, and what statements he made. They said questions were asked and answered to assess GZ's condition, but he was not asked how he got his injuries, and he made no statements about what had happened.

Ofc. Smith testified that driving time from RATL to the SPD station is 'roughly 15 minutes' (Video, 18:10).

Smith's supplemental report (15/184), says that en route they spoke about how GZ felt, and that GZ declined an offer to be taken to a hospital.

Smith testified that GZ was in an interview room, waiting for Singleton, for 30 to 40 minutes (27:43).

These observations are consistent with Smith's supplemental report, while being more specific on the time. 

Quote
I also made contact with Zimmerman every 15-20 minutes (approximately) to check his status . . .


A few minutes into the interview, GZ for the first time told Singleton why he reported TM as suspicious. 

SPD 2/26-1, 4:10-26
Quote
Zimmerman: This gentleman in particular? I had never seen him in the neighborhood. I know all the residents. It was raining out, and he was leisurely walking, taking his time, looking at all the houses.

Singleton: OK.

Zimmerman: When I drove by he stopped and looked at me.

TM 'looking at all the houses', has been moved from 40 seconds into the call, to before GZ decided to make the call. TM being a stranger to the neighborhood appears for the first time, as does his stopping when GZ drove by.

GZ was repeating that TM didn't seem to be trying to get out of the rain when Singleton's phone beeped. Singleton had to fetch GZ's phone, so he could get contact information related to the RATL security cameras. Then she left the room again, I assume to return the phone to where it was being kept. GZ seems to have been alone when Singleton was out of the room. No voices are heard during those interludes.

The first time, GZ was alone for less than half a minute, about 6:38 to 7:02. The second time, it was about a minute and a half, from about 8:07 to 9:38.

During these interludes, GZ seems to have had a flash of memory or imagination. After the second, he would say for the first time that TM, when GZ first saw him, was in front of a residence with a history.

10:25-52
Quote
Zimmerman: And this time, I was leaving to go to the grocery store. And like I said, I saw him walking in the neighborhood, the same, in front of the same house that I had called the police before, to come to because this guy leaves his doors unlocked and stuff. And he was walking leisurely and looking at the houses, and, so I just pulled my car to the side. And I called the non-emergency line.

More to come.

All of the above is my opinions.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2013, 11:18:27 PM »
I hoped I would have time to post a few more responses to this before the trial was over. But I always knew the series wouldn't be done by then, that is, now. I knew that by the time I completed it, the matter might well be of only historical interest. But I have always been more of a history buff than a trial buff. My intention was, and is, to complete the series.

I originally intended to do this chronologically. I overlooked some points, and so I am backtracking a bit. The points I am taking up in this post are, I now think, where I should have begun.

Non-emergency Call, 0:17-25

This was all the explanation GZ gave the NEN dispatcher for why he called TM in as suspicious person.

Later in the NEN call, GZ would say of TM: 'He's here now, and he's just staring, looking at all the houses.' (0:41) To me the 'here now' suggests an update, not additional explanation for GZ making the call over half a minute earlier.

Contrary to some early reports, GZ was not questioned at the shooting scene, except for Ofc. Smith asking who shot TM.

From Surdyka's 911 call, it seems Smith led GZ away from the scene about 7:23 PM, about 6 minutes after the gunshot.

SFD pronounced TM dead about 7:30, and went to attend to GZ. All of them were asked by FDLE what questions were put to GZ, and what statements he made. They said questions were asked and answered to assess GZ's condition, but he was not asked how he got his injuries, and he made no statements about what had happened.

Ofc. Smith testified that driving time from RATL to the SPD station is 'roughly 15 minutes' (Video, 18:10).

Smith's supplemental report (15/184), says that en route they spoke about how GZ felt, and that GZ declined an offer to be taken to a hospital.

Smith testified that GZ was in an interview room, waiting for Singleton, for 30 to 40 minutes (27:43).

These observations are consistent with Smith's supplemental report, while being more specific on the time. 
 

A few minutes into the interview, GZ for the first time told Singleton why he reported TM as suspicious. 

SPD 2/26-1, 4:10-26
TM 'looking at all the houses', has been moved from 40 seconds into the call, to before GZ decided to make the call. TM being a stranger to the neighborhood appears for the first time, as does his stopping when GZ drove by.

GZ was repeating that TM didn't seem to be trying to get out of the rain when Singleton's phone beeped. Singleton had to fetch GZ's phone, so he could get contact information related to the RATL security cameras. Then she left the room again, I assume to return the phone to where it was being kept. GZ seems to have been alone when Singleton was out of the room. No voices are heard during those interludes.

The first time, GZ was alone for less than half a minute, about 6:38 to 7:02. The second time, it was about a minute and a half, from about 8:07 to 9:38.

During these interludes, GZ seems to have had a flash of memory or imagination. After the second, he would say for the first time that TM, when GZ first saw him, was in front of a residence with a history.

10:25-52
More to come.

All of the above is my opinions.

Quote
about 6:38 to 7:02

Did you mean these times or off by an hour?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2013, 02:26:03 AM »
The first time, GZ was alone for less than half a minute, about 6:38 to 7:02. The second time, it was about a minute and a half, from about 8:07 to 9:38.

Did you mean these times or off by an hour?

DFH, it's bad internet form to quote a whole post, especially a long one, to respond on a single point.

That isn't clock time in hours and minutes. It's time from the beginning of the recording, in minutes and seconds. So 6:38 to 7:02 is 'less than half a minute', and 8:07 to 9:38 is 'about a minute and a half'.

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2013, 06:44:24 AM »
NMNM, where do you think GZ was when the NEN call starts? I still think he was parked at the spot where he ultimately left his truck. He's describing things that already happened and he's describing TM's behavior as it was happening as GZ was talking to the dispatcher. This would explain the inconsistant verb tenses.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2013, 07:00:28 AM »
NMNM, where do you think GZ was when the NEN call starts?

I don't know. I think he might have been parked at the clubhouse at 0:00 on the recording. If so, I think he must have started backing out within a few seconds. I've never been able to make sense of the timeline on the assumption that GZ was still parked at the clubhouse any later than that.

That GZ was already parked on TTL, and never moved the truck during the time the call was recording, is also quite possible in my opinion.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 07:02:59 AM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: Your Theories
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2013, 07:14:42 AM »
My opinion only; GZ passed TM at least once then waited for TM to approach from behind. To me, it seems like what GZ is describing during the NEN call and it seemed like a a comon opinion on WAGIST, which was the first blog that really started to question the scenario put forth by the PR machine.(the blog which first posted the map of TRATL and the blog which put a stopwatch to the NEN call.)

 

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