Author Topic: Final Charge Conference and Instructions  (Read 8249 times)

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Offline TalkLeft

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Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« on: July 11, 2013, 04:05:22 AM »
Here is a thread to discuss the final charge conference on July 11, 2013 and final jury instructions.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 08:18:19 AM »
Felony murder because of child abuse?

Creative.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 08:19:22 AM »
AKA Third Degree Murder.  A new one on me.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 08:21:37 AM »
Here is 827.03, Florida's Child Abuse law.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 08:23:31 AM »
AKA Third Degree Murder.  A new one on me.

Third degree?

Quote
Diana Tennis ‏@TennisLaw 1m
Not Game Changer in that Self Defense needs be disproved still. "Murder" charge may not look like compromise. Interesting!

If the murder charge is the compromise--then how can it be "third degree"?

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 08:28:28 AM »
Who could know more about Florida third degree murder than Richard Hornsby?

Almost anyone, IMO. Don West, Diana Tennis, JDN, me, you....anyone. Hornsby's a joke.

But you were right, third degree.


And wow is Don West pissed about it too.


Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 08:39:13 AM »
JDN tries to say West wouldn't need much time to respond to this child abuse thing because they have 4 lawyers in court and a room full down stairs.

West points out that there are only 3 lawyers, everyone else is an intern/volunteer and they've done great work but can't be relied on for some things.

Angela Corey has moved up to the second prosecution bench. West attacked her a moment ago when he ranted about being blindsided by a trick upon the court.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2013, 08:43:47 AM »
(
Quote
e) “Neglect of a child” means:
1. A caregiver’s failure or omission to provide a child with the care, supervision, and services necessary to maintain the child’s physical and mental health, including, but not limited to, food, nutrition, clothing, shelter, supervision, medicine, and medical services that a prudent person would consider essential for the well-being of the child; or

Didn't GZ acting in his capacity as a custodian of the interests of the HOA loose sight of the abandoned child TM ?

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 08:46:57 AM »
Mantei can't, apparently, understand what "or" means.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 08:50:36 AM »
Now they are on .041 "provocation".  A long time favorite subject around here.  Mantei says provocation comes from Z running after M.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2013, 08:55:21 AM »
West now arguing the presence of the "provoke" instruction, and asks the court require the state to articulate the facts that constitute provocation.

Mantei says "follow," hearing a scuffle and conduct.  Surdyka's statement that she saw Zimmerman on top of Martin.  Mantei says there is a physical closing, and there are facts to support either Martin or Zimmerman being the first to threaten or use force.

West says the court didn't address this argument in the JOA (and doesn't know if the court plans to compose a written statement of why it denied the JOA).  And what Mantei articulated is not the low, not close to the law, and not supported by the witnesses he claims support the facts.   West is covering each witness in turn, Bahadoor, Surdyka.  Surdyka could not have seen what she claims to have seen.  She says Zimmerman fired from above, and Martin was face down.  But Martin was not shot in the back.  Surdyka did not see the start of the altercation, so can't establish Zimmerman provoked the attack.

Good argument all around, by West.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2013, 08:57:17 AM »
Nice to see you wandered back this way, cboldt.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2013, 08:59:39 AM »
The jury was supposed to come back at 10?  I wouldn't be surprised if there will be no closing arguments until tomorrow.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2013, 09:03:43 AM »
Nice to see you wandered back this way, cboldt.

I just happened to be back in the neighborhood, and heard the argument going on.  This is a pretty big part of the case.  Once this is settled, I'm likely invisible again.

Mantei says that West is arguing inference that can't be taken (Surdyka), but it's up to the jury to reject Surdyka.

West goes on, as a matter of law, following somebody on foot or by car is not against the law, and cannot be considered provocation, just like you can't construe carrying a firearm as threat or use of force.  West says force means force, and threat of force means threat of force.  A properly concealed firearm is not threat.  To find that the evidence supports provocation would be a miscarriage.

I think she said she was not going to give the 776.041 instruction.  Good.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2013, 09:06:11 AM »
Are you an expert on 3rd degree murder with lesser included offense of child abuse, cbolt?  Is it a really cuckoo theory?

 

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