Author Topic: Final Charge Conference and Instructions  (Read 8402 times)

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Offline cboldt

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2013, 09:58:53 AM »
Won't the jury consider whether or not self defense holds first?  If they find it doesn't then they consider second degree murder, manslaughter, etc.?

They will have the instructions read to them before they retire for deliberation.  It'll be up to them to decide what order to approach the written instructions / verdict form.

My experience on juries, the general sense is settled very quickly, and any "holdout" or uncertainty issues are known fairly quickly, so the discussion gets focused on those points.  I've been on three cases, and we took a straw vote within 5 minutes of retiring - show of hands sort of thing, and brief description why.  No persuasion going on, just informational.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2013, 10:01:53 AM »
recess until 1, then they'll take up the third degree felony murder and then Bernie will begin his close.

Is the 3rd degree murder thing the same as the "Aggravated child abuse" thing?  One charge, with 3rd degree murder flowing from Aggravated child abuse?  If so, that is totally kooky, and I'm surprised Nelson it considering it seriously.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2013, 10:05:22 AM »
Is the 3rd degree murder thing the same as the "Aggravated child abuse" thing?  One charge, with 3rd degree murder flowing from Aggravated child abuse?  If so, that is totally kooky, and I'm surprised Nelson it considering it seriously.

Yes. Felony murder (3rd degree murder) with child abuse being the underlying felony.

It's kooky but even the defense lawyers on Twitter think it could fly.

Offline Cylinder

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2013, 10:08:34 AM »
Did they include involuntary manslaughter (aka Manslaughter by Culpable Negligence) or only voluntary? Or are they all packed together?

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2013, 10:10:11 AM »
BTW child abuse isn't strictly an adult on minor crime. A minor can be guilty of child abuse.

Be really funny then, the next time a gang member shoots another gang member to see him charged with child abuse.





Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2013, 10:11:02 AM »
Did they include involuntary manslaughter (aka Manslaughter by Culpable Negligence) or only voluntary? Or are they all packed together?

I don't know the answer to that.
I think it was only voluntary but I don't know.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2013, 10:22:49 AM »
Richard Hornsby said on weshtv that the judge will have to put the 3rd degree murder based on child abuse in.  Apparently he thinks West is making too big a deal about it.  He thinks that a case like this is not what the legislature had in mind when they crafted their child abuses statute but it has been used that way and only they can fix it.

Hornsby has been wrong on quite a few things.  If the state is going to argue this, then it needs to be in front of the defendant as a charge, because there is a question about knowing, on the part of defendant, whether the victim is a child.  I'd like Hornsby to point to a case where the jury instruction, BUT NOT the charging information, called for finding 3rd degree murder on aggravated child abuse.  There has to be "An intentional act that could reasonably be expected to result in physical or mental injury to a child," which goes beyond the act being intentional.

I won't vouch positively for Judge Nelson, so no prediction on how she'll rule on this no-brainer.

Edit to add link to FS 827.03 - Abuse, aggravated abuse, and neglect of a child.
Zimmerman has to be found guilty of this (uncharged) crime, in order to fit in Murder 3 on the state's legal theory.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 10:29:00 AM by cboldt »

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2013, 10:34:13 AM »
Best part about all this is that Diana Tennis and Hornsby are both pretty much befuddled by what's in, what's out, how and why.

Although Tennis does think the Felony Murder/Child Abuse thing could come in.
Could.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2013, 10:37:45 AM »
Best part about all this is that Diana Tennis and Hornsby are both pretty much befuddled by what's in, what's out, how and why.

Although Tennis does think the Felony Murder/Child Abuse thing could come in.
Could.

With Nelson, anything is possible.  I mean, once you decide the law is whatever Nelson says it is, what's the point in review of case law?

There is another problem with the state's proposition, and that is that Felony murder requires an independent felony.  What is the felony that is independent of firing the shot?

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2013, 10:53:33 AM »
Did you catch it earlier where she (JDN) :

Quote
Diana Tennis ‏@TennisLaw 1h
State wanting to add definition based on case law. Minute ago she told defense his request needed to be codified, meaning in a statute. Ugh

Ugh indeed.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2013, 10:56:27 AM »
Double standards, bias quite obvious.

When West entered an oral motion in limine to preclude the state from arguing that following was illegal during closing, Nelson sarcastically asked if the defense expected her to review a "transcript" (would be a script) of the state's closing and edit it.

She did not make any similar remark when the state was asking to preclude the defense from making remarks in opening statement.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2013, 11:04:13 AM »
She didn't let West make his argument. No third degree no child abuse.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2013, 11:05:49 AM »
I didn't hear what Mantei just said, something about protecting the record.
?

Offline cboldt

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2013, 11:06:50 AM »
Nelson doesn't need argument.  There is no evidence to support aggravated child abuse.  Murder 3 is out.  Mantei now wants to argue.  Child abuse is not alleged in the information, there is no evidence of child abuse.  Mantei continues to argue, just making sure the error is noted as (Mantei claims) reversible.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Final Charge Conference and Instructions
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2013, 11:07:39 AM »
Why does Corey get to sit there and talk on Skype (it appears) during court?

 

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