Author Topic: Post-Verdict Media Coverage  (Read 11286 times)

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Offline Evil Chinchilla

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2013, 08:21:54 AM »
The “dream-defenders” seem to have focused on ending “stand your ground” and the “school to prison pipeline”.   

That latter term has always bothered me because it neatly omits the real source of the problem in most cases.

Truthfully, it should be the "dysfunctional home to school that isn't allowed to properly discipline to prison pipeline".

But, hey-- so much easier to blame others (schools, law enforcement, lawmakers) and create an "enemy" that must be perpetually fought (but never defeated).

The alleged perpetrator has a mother born in a third world, Spanish speaking country, leading to the invention of “white Hispanic”.

I'm pretty certain this case didn't invent that term. I recall seeing the term used in some print source years ago, referring to people like actors Ricardo Montalban (Mr. Roarke on "Fantasy Island") and Ana Alicia (bad girl Melissa Agretti on "Falcon Crest"), who were both originally from Mexico but  didn't "look Mexican".

Also, the US Census allows for checking "Hispanic" in addition to another category, and for years has broken down "white" into a subset of "non-Hispanic white" in its population percentages. This would imply that there's an official "Hispanic white" designation, even if it's not often used.


Good post, BTW.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2013, 10:29:33 AM »
I take issue with the first part of Steele's piece (the narrative) as well, but keep in mind that it was written and posted back on April 6, 2012.

Thanks for pointing that out. I neglected to check the date. I was assuming the column was recent.

John Good gave his behind-the-door interview to local TV news on 2/27/12, the day after the shooting, putting Martin on top of Zimmerman. By 4/2/12, even ABC News admitted that GZ was injured.

The hoodie meme was always dubiously sourced, and that was easy to check.

ETA: Come to think of it, that means Steele published 'A teenager . . . committing no crime', just days after the airing of the 'enhanced' video showing GZ's head injuries.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 10:37:14 AM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2013, 12:15:13 PM »
There was a female Repesentative who made the news when she spoke out against hoodies, saying it was athug look and made wearers of hoodies subject to stereotyping. This was a few years ago. Julison and Gutman must have remembered the news story

Offline SuzieTampa

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2013, 12:38:42 PM »
To expand on what Evil Chinchilla said ... The U.S. Census and some other forms consider black and white to be races and Hispanic to be an ethnicity. So, someone like B29 could consider herself a "black Hispanic," if she wants. Of course, black and white are social constructs, too, which are based on ancestry and/or looks.

The government, universities and other institutions don't require people to prove their ancestry, with the exception of Native Americans in certain circumstances. The NYT and other media have discussed how young people with mixed ancestry sometimes choose which race or ethnicity they want to claim, depending on admission and scholarship policies at schools.

In Tampa, where I live, there were social & aid clubs for people from Spain and their descendants; Cubans who didn't look like they had African ancestry; and black Cubans. "White Hispanics" have definitely discriminated against "black Hispanics" and indigenous people here and elsewhere. I moved to FL in the '80s, and I can't recall any media using the term "white Hispanic," unless they were discussing historic categorizations. Black Hispanics    do describe themselves that way, at least in some instances, but more likely would use their nationality, such as saying they were Afro-Cuban, or such.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 03:59:38 PM »
OPINION only...

The Zimmerman name threw them off.  He was referred to as white even though the picture of the mug shot, which came out later, showed his ethnicity.  Since he was presumed white, the only logical way to keep the narrative true was to add the Hispanic afterwards.  Thus the White Hispanic meme was used.

I am from San Antonio where are Hispanic population is over 60%.  White only is at 26%. That (W-H) is not a common way of describing oneself here.

From our demographics:
(a) Includes persons reporting only one race.
(b) Hispanics may be of any race, so also are included in applicable race categories.

Offline SuzieTampa

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 06:43:11 PM »
I didn't see a thread for Shellie Zimmerman. But ... Michelle Kennedy, the pio for the courts, put out this tweet:  ‏
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State v Shellie Zimmerman: Attorney has waived her appearance at her next docket sounding scheduled for Aug 21, 2013

Offline TalkLeft

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    • TalkLeft: The Politics of Crime
Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2013, 10:40:46 PM »
If you see an objectionable article somewhere, please don't quote it here. I don't want to be associated with the text. You can discuss it, link to it etc but there's no need to quote it.

On another topic, here's President Obama tonight on Leno. He still can't grasp the facts. He says we should ask ourselves

Quote
    ‘are there some things we can do to foster better understanding’ and to make sure we don’t have laws in place that encourage the kind of violent encounter that we saw there that resulted in tragedy.”

What law is in place that encourages assault, like the assault Martin launched against Zimmerman that began the violent encounter?  It sounds like he's saying SYG laws encourage violent encounters. But since it was Martin who initiated the violence, his comment makes no sense. He moves a little bit by acknowledging Martin wasn't perfect, but it seems he's referring to the character evidence, and still not the assault. It's really bewildering that so many people just pretend that's not what led to the shooting.

Offline SuzieTampa

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2013, 08:26:11 AM »
Sorry about those quotes, Jeralyn. Here's the link again: http://www.thenation.com/blog/175299/fear-and-consequences-george-zimmerman-and-protection-white-womanhood#axzz2bC7KmkxP

I left a lengthy comment on this piece at the Nation. The author, Jessica Valenti, is a rising star in mainstream feminism. In feminist circles, a white feminist must support anti-racism in her writing, even if it means agreeing with incorrect and outlandish accusations. Otherwise, she will be attacked as a racist. This is what happened to me. Even in the most radical (a k a radfem) feminist blogs, authors are being attacked if they don't write about the GZ case. The same McCarthyism is happening on LGBT blogs.

As some of you may recall, feminist Amanda Marcotte did the same in the Duke lacrosse case, but a few years later, was attacked as being a racist herself and discredited in the eyes of many.

Offline SuzieTampa

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Offline SuzieTampa

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2013, 09:24:02 AM »
Ebony magazine has dedicated its September issue to TM, with five different covers. http://blogs.timeslive.co.za/gabiville/2013/08/07/ebony-magazine-dedicates-their-september-issue-to-trayvon-martin/

Offline unitron

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2013, 12:22:06 PM »
If you see an objectionable article somewhere, please don't quote it here. I don't want to be associated with the text. You can discuss it, link to it etc but there's no need to quote it.

On another topic, here's President Obama tonight on Leno. He still can't grasp the facts. He says we should ask ourselves

What law is in place that encourages assault, like the assault Martin launched against Zimmerman that began the violent encounter?  It sounds like he's saying SYG laws encourage violent encounters. But since it was Martin who initiated the violence, his comment makes no sense. He moves a little bit by acknowledging Martin wasn't perfect, but it seems he's referring to the character evidence, and still not the assault. It's really bewildering that so many people just pretend that's not what led to the shooting.


An acquittal is not evidence that the defendent's version is fact, and in this case it's only evidence that the state was unable to overcome reasonable doubt about it being self-defense.

If left-handed Zimmerman used his dominant hand to grab right-handed Trayvon's right arm to hold him for the police and Trayvon responded by punching him on the right hand side of Zimmerman's nose (where the swelling was) with his (Trayvon's) left hand, which one might suspect he ordinarily wouldn't have led with if it was an instinctual counter-attack, and then things proceeded according to the rest of Zimmerman's account, Zimmerman would still have had a valid self-defense claim under Florida's Justifiable Use of Force law.

Therefore Zimmerman claiming Martin was the first to get physical may be "evidence", but without any other living witness to the beginning of the struggle, it remains only an allegation, which is what is was all along and what it would have remained regardless of whatever verdict was returned.

I wasn't there and don't know for sure exactly how it started, but I do know that no verdict in the world can prove it one way or the other or retroactively change those events, whatever they were.

Of course the "Stand Your Ground" parts of Florida's Justifiable Use of Force law had nothing to do with this case (regardless of whether or not the Immunity part was incorporated into it at the same time), so the former law professor in the White House should either point that out or remain silent, but that's got nothing to do with whether or not who got physical first is an established, proven fact.

It is not, and probably never will be.

Actually, said former law professor should have been prepared by his staff for the inevitability that someone was going to ask him about the case sooner rather than later, and had him primed to say "I don't wish to appear insensitive to the loss of a life, but this is a matter for the State of Florida to handle and it would be inappropriate for me to comment on it further".

Offline leftwig

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2013, 12:49:40 PM »
GZ's statements are evidence.  I don't see the need to place the word in quotes.  There was no eye witness to the events.  Several mention what appears to be the first and only exchange of words.  It appears TM spoke first which is an indicator that he was the initial person to confront.  Ms. Surdyka (sp?) said she couldn't distinguish words, but could distinguish voice tone and inflection and said that a loud angry voice was responded to by a softer, higher pitched voice.  I'd consider this more circumstantial evidence as to who may have initiated the aggressive behavior. 

I agree with you that we don't know for sure what happened.  Only an impartial eye witness or a video could answer that for us.  We do have one eye witness account, not only of the beginning, but of the full struggle, and that account is very consistent with eye witness accounts that saw other parts of the struggle and aftermath.  ITs possible GZ tried to detain TM, but two things always come to mind when thats suggested.   IF GZ wanted to detain TM, why wouldn't he have done that earlier?  Would have made much more sense when TM was near his vehicle and he was on the phone with NEN.  The other point would be that it seems clear that TM was at the 'T' in a confrontation with GZ because it was his choice to do so.  Neither of these proves that GZ didn't initiate the aggression, but they do seem to lessen the odds considerably.


Offline unitron

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 01:20:58 PM »
GZ's statements are evidence.  I don't see the need to place the word in quotes...

That's because you're unfamiliar with my previous discussions with Jeralyn on the topic, where I initially had a different, non-court and law specific, view on what qualifies as evidence.  It seems an uncorroborated claim by one party can be considered such.

Where we are disagreeing now, it would appear, is the definition of "fact".


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 02:37:39 PM »
IF GZ wanted to detain TM, why wouldn't he have done that earlier?

Earlier, it seemed more likely that TM would still be there when the police arrived.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 02:46:58 PM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline Cylinder

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Re: Post-Verdict Media Coverage
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2013, 02:50:50 PM »
How the confrontation escalated is probably subject to rational dispute as long as that dispute acknowledges that it began much as Zimmerman described. What is beyond rational dispute is that it began with the three-part exchange, that it was very probably initiated by Martin and that there is no reliable evidence that Zimmerman initiated use of force by contact or by threat.

I am very confident in comparing Zimmerman's statements with those of Lauer - neither had any way of knowing the content of the other unless there was some overarching conspiracy on the part of SPD. I think that can be discounted. OTOH, Jeantel could have had an opportunity to alter her statements in order to tailor them to the evidence already developed. The differences in the key elements of her statements first - along with the collateral problems such as age, relationship and the hospital visit - along with exposure to at least a source for the contemporaneous witness statements makes it hard for me to weight her statements.

 

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