TalkLeft Discussion Forums

State v. George Zimmerman (Pre-Trial) => Evidence Discussion => Topic started by: Cylinder on July 12, 2012, 09:54:16 AM

Title: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: Cylinder on July 12, 2012, 09:54:16 AM
Call 1 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490530/data/3/-/d4lnkj/-/Call-1.null)
Zimmerman reports a suspicious person that fits the description from a break-in. Zimmerman does not want to give address to his house but gives the 1111 RVC address. Zimmerman describes the ethnicity when prompted.
 
Call 2 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490542/data/4/-/11o6kjtz/-/Call-2.null)
Two youths match description from break in. Will meet at back gate to let officer in. States the youths usually run to adjacent neighborhood.
 
Call 3 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490548/data/5/-/15336fz/-/Call-3.null)
Calls to report open garage door. Gives RVC address.

Call 4 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490556/data/5/-/k57k37z/-/Call-4.null)
2 suspicious persons loitering at gate. Gives ethnicity when prompted. Uses 1111 RVC address.

Call 5 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490572/data/4/-/nlmltj/-/Call-5.null)
Reports kids playing in street and running in traffic. Concerned for their safety and that of drivers. Uses RVC address. Gives ethnicity when prompted. "all ages, all races."

Call 6 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490588/data/3/-/oq9q6s/-/Call-6.null)
Report suspicious person walking around in bomber hat and pajama bottoms on trash day. Person is walking up to houses and back to sidewalk.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 03, 2013, 05:30:05 PM
Nothing wrong with reviving an old thread, I hope.  I find the following contrasts with the NEN call in the Martin case.

1. No strong emotional reaction to the suspects.  He doesn't use profanity or any characterization besides suspicious - no f*****g p**ks or a**h**s.  Is he on his good behavior just because the dispatcher in the previous calls is a female?

2. No attempt to describe where he currently is so the cops will meet him at that spot.  Seems to think 1111 Retreat View Circle is enough of an address for the cops to look for suspects in the area.  In the first call, which seems similar to the situation in the Martin case as the suspect was seen going between the buildings towards the back entrance but he doesn't try to arrange meeting the cops.  In the second the suspects are at the back gate and he tells the cops he will let them in there but he thinks the suspects might hop over to Calabria Cove, the next development over.  Why didn't he do the same with Martin?

3. Quite cautious about getting close to the suspects.  Didn't want to attract attention by getting the license number of their white Chevy Impala in 4; didn't want to approach the guy hanging around Taafe's house in 6.  With Martin, the suspect actually approached his car and looked at him, tugging his waistband, so you would think he would be even more cautious.  But he was uncharacteristically reckless on 2/26/12

4. Except for the two inconsequential calls 3 and 5, the approximate timings were between 1:42 and 2:07 minutes, must less time than with the call with Nofke.  He was strictly business and had no problem saying exactly what he wanted the cops to do in the previous calls.

Remember, no speculation about his meds to explain the difference.   ;)
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: TalkLeft on February 03, 2013, 11:01:10 PM
Here are the transcripts (http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/priorcalltranscripts.pdf) of his prior non-emergency calls. I'm not sure where I got them, but they have been on my computer since  Sept. 5, 2012.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 04, 2013, 08:56:40 AM
I notice that the transcriber heard building instead of "Bentley" in the directions George gave to get to Taffe's place.
Quote
If you have an officer available, I’d probably have him stop on
Rinehart—across the street from Walter Reed’s building; and, go around the back.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 04, 2013, 09:52:04 AM
I notice that the transcriber heard building instead of "Bentley" in the directions George gave to get to Taffe's place.

I listened again, and I disagree. It's 'Bentley', quite clear, no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 13, 2013, 11:34:16 AM
It just hit me that the school on the other side of Oregon Ave. is 'Bentley Elementary'. Could Zimmerman have meant the school? That would mean he confused Oregon Ave. with Rinehart Rd. He meant for the officers to park in front of RATL, west of the gate on Oregon Ave., and 'go around the back'.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 13, 2013, 11:51:08 AM
Is the full name of the school "Walter Reed Bentley"?  That might explain part of it.  I thought the cops were able to drive into RATL without having somebody buzz them in so I still don't see the point. 
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 13, 2013, 01:15:37 PM
Is the full name of the school "Walter Reed Bentley"?  That might explain part of it.

Googling the name brings up various individuals.

The school has a website. (http://www.bentley.scps.k12.fl.us/) No sign there of any longer name, or explanation for the name 'Bentley'.

There's a phone number, if you want to call, and hope you can reach someone who knows the answer.

Zimmerman could have been wrong about the name. These are Zimmerman directions.

Quote
I thought the cops were able to drive into RATL without having somebody buzz them in so I still don't see the point.

I don't think there would be a point to going through the gate. Even coming from the east, it's an unnecessary dog-leg. From the west it would be doubling back.

Zimmerman might have thought the suspect was less likely to see the police car or realize it was coming for him if it stayed on Oregon Ave.

He may also have thought they would have a better chance of intercepting the suspect if he tried to leave the neighborhood.

Frank Taaffe discussed the incident, and the later arrest of the suspect, in a video interview. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oNUHIAVWJG0) He named the person, and said he lived in the complex. He said the person is 19, but it's not clear if he meant at the time of his arrest or the time of the interview.

I also don't know when was done either. It was posted on YouTube last December.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: AghastInFL on February 13, 2013, 02:40:42 PM
It just hit me that the school on the other side of Oregon Ave. is 'Bentley Elementary'. Could Zimmerman have meant the school? That would mean he confused Oregon Ave. with Rinehart Rd. He meant for the officers to park in front of RATL, west of the gate on Oregon Ave., and 'go around the back'.
smh, talk about missing the obvious... I drove all around that school and never once noticed the name.
Police do actually park on Lowe Ave near the entrance to Derby Park, either observing traffic or students after class, it is common to see a squad car there.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 13, 2013, 04:18:00 PM
Frank Taaffe discussed the incident, and the later arrest of the suspect, in a video interview. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oNUHIAVWJG0) He named the person, and said he lived in the complex. He said the person is 19, but it's not clear if he meant at the time of his arrest or the time of the interview.

I also don't know when was done either. It was posted on YouTube last December.
That video, starting at about 10:55, is one of the several places that tries to guess where Zimmerman was at various times after exiting his vehicle.  After 15 seconds, when the dispatcher's immortal words, "We don't need you to do that" were uttered, he was just a few feet from TTL and still a ways to go before getting level with the front of the Witness11 house.  Dave reaches the T at 36 seconds, which corresponds to  the time the dispatcher was asking Zimmerman if he wanted to meet with an officer when they arrived on the scene.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 13, 2013, 04:37:18 PM
I looked at the school on Google Earth. The complex looks big for an elementary school.

The main entrance to the school's parking lot is directly across from the main entrance to RATL. I looked at the sign on Street View.

There is some lettering if front of 'Bentley', but I couldn't make it out, even after copying into an image editor and blowing it up. It doesn't look long enough to be 'Walter Reed'. It seems like a single word/name. Maybe just 'Walter', although the overall shape doesn't particularly suggest that to me.

I would have thought that Zimmerman would want to give the police the same name as on the sign, if he could remember it.

There is  secondary entrance for the school, directly across Oregon Ave. from the 15X0 building of RATL. No sign there.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 13, 2013, 04:53:21 PM
The name on the school on the picture here (http://www.scps.k12.fl.us/Schools/SchoolInfo.aspx?sid=0801) is "Altermese Bentley Elementary School".  I guess Altermese is Mr or Ms Bentley's first name.  It is not a word in English or Spanish AFAIK.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 13, 2013, 05:07:27 PM
I guessed correctly about Ms Bentley.  Here (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2004-08-26/news/0408260861_1_bentley-sanford-missionary) is her obituary.  And I listened again to the end of Zimmerman's call.  He did say "Altermese Bentley", not Walter Reed's Bentley.  MYSTERY SOLVED!   ;D
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 13, 2013, 05:28:56 PM
smh, talk about missing the obvious... I drove all around that school and never once noticed the name.
Police do actually park on Lowe Ave near the entrance to Derby Park, either observing traffic or students after class, it is common to see a squad car there.
AIF, on the next trip can you get a shot of just where the police would park to be across the street from the back of Taafe's house?  TIA.  I still don't understand how they would know where the back of Taafe's house was.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 13, 2013, 06:07:39 PM
He did say "Altermese Bentley", not Walter Reed's Bentley.  MYSTERY SOLVED!   ;D

Good work!  ;D

I still don't understand how they would know where the back of Taafe's house was.

I would guess because he thought he had given them the correct address.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 13, 2013, 06:13:00 PM
How could they find an address on RVC when they were on Oregon Avenue?
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: AghastInFL on February 13, 2013, 06:36:34 PM
AIF, on the next trip can you get a shot of just where the police would park to be across the street from the back of Taafe's house?  TIA.  I still don't understand how they would know where the back of Taafe's house was.
Sure, that would be the second entrance NM NM just mentioned, the masonry wall ended at the NW end of the property the building in direct view is the 1430-1460 bldg wherein FT resides. This is the so called shortcut at 1350-1430 and if some perp were escaping they would indeed be in direct view. It actually makes very good sense.
This is close to the exact view here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8434549728/in/set-72157632691885798/) minus the newly installed wrought iron fence. For this photo I made a right turn from the school entrance road, stopped and took the shot.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 13, 2013, 06:41:33 PM
There is  secondary entrance for the school, directly across Oregon Ave. from the 15X0 building of RATL. No sign there.

That should have been the 13X0 building of RATL.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: TalkLeft on February 13, 2013, 09:19:10 PM
I guessed correctly about Ms Bentley.  Here (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2004-08-26/news/0408260861_1_bentley-sanford-missionary) is her obituary.  And I listened again to the end of Zimmerman's call.  He did say "Altermese Bentley", not Walter Reed's Bentley.  MYSTERY SOLVED!   ;D

Thanks, Ricky. I updated the transcripts (http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/priorcalltranscripts.pdf) to reflect the change
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: unitron on February 14, 2013, 06:42:45 AM
I guessed correctly about Ms Bentley.  Here (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2004-08-26/news/0408260861_1_bentley-sanford-missionary) is her obituary.  And I listened again to the end of Zimmerman's call.  He did say "Altermese Bentley", not Walter Reed's Bentley.  MYSTERY SOLVED!   ;D

Allow me to add my congratulations, Detective RickyJim.

That gold shield looks good on you.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 14, 2013, 07:30:50 AM
Allow me to add my congratulations, Detective RickyJim.

That gold shield looks good on you.

 :-[  I feel humbled by the adulation.   :D   NMNM, who brought the school to my attention, deserves to share equally in the prize money. 
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 14, 2013, 07:47:00 AM
Sure, that would be the second entrance NM NM just mentioned, the masonry wall ended at the NW end of the property the building in direct view is the 1430-1460 bldg wherein FT resides. This is the so called shortcut at 1350-1430 and if some perp were escaping they would indeed be in direct view. It actually makes very good sense.
This is close to the exact view here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8434549728/in/set-72157632691885798/) minus the newly installed wrought iron fence. For this photo I made a right turn from the school entrance road, stopped and took the shot.

So none of that fence in the picture was there on 2/2/12?  I guess you are saying that there was only one place an officer parked at Altermese Bentley would "go around the back" to enter the premises. 
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 14, 2013, 08:57:40 AM
NMNM, who brought the school to my attention

Serendipity. Like I said, it hit me. I was studying the radio traffic for an entirely different purpose. Smith used the name of the school giving directions to Ayala.

You did the real work.

Quote
deserves to share equally in the prize money.

You're so generous. It's a small fortune.

A very small fortune.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 14, 2013, 09:09:59 AM
This is the so called shortcut at 1350-1430 and if some perp were escaping they would indeed be in direct view. It actually makes very good sense.

And yet, Zimmerman wins another booby prize in giving directions because, once again (actually previously), he couldn't remember a street name.

I think it's a double booby prize, because he also gave a wrong house number on the same occasion.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 14, 2013, 09:30:38 AM
It is interesting to consider how the defense may use these clearly innocent inaccuracies to bolster a claim that Zimmerman's later inaccuracies about the events of 2/26 were also innocent. 
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: unitron on February 14, 2013, 05:03:11 PM
I just thought of something.

Who's going to break the news to Walter Reed that it turns out he doesn't own a Bentley after all, much less an entire dealership?

Hope he didn't already have business cards printed up.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 14, 2013, 06:49:14 PM
Who's going to break the news to Walter Reed that it turns out he doesn't own a Bentley after all, much less an entire dealership?

 ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 14, 2013, 07:24:55 PM
Altermese Bentley may never have owned Bentley, but she always was a Bentley.

I think we're getting silly.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 14, 2013, 07:41:05 PM
Now that RickyJim has proved conclusively that Zimmerman didn't say 'Walter Reed', I think he should get to work on . . . you know.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: unitron on February 15, 2013, 04:55:45 PM
Altermese Bentley may never have owned Bentley, but she always was a Bentley.

I think we're getting silly.

From her bio, she sounds more like a top-of-the-line Rolls-Royce.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: turbo6 on February 16, 2013, 09:02:52 PM
Nothing wrong with reviving an old thread, I hope.  I find the following contrasts with the NEN call in the Martin case.

1. No strong emotional reaction to the suspects.  He doesn't use profanity or any characterization besides suspicious - no f*****g p**ks or a**h**s.  Is he on his good behavior just because the dispatcher in the previous calls is a female?



With Martin, things seemed to be more personal. They were both aware of each others presence long before the actual confrontation. On the NEN call when Zimmerman describes Trayvon's "staring" and walking towards him with this hand in his waistband, its plausible to think Martin may have employed intimidating mannerisms to get Zimmerman to back off.

Zimmerman did seem a bit concerned when Martin was right by his truck, inquiring as to how soon an officer would arrive at that point. Clearly Martin wasn't trying to allude or avoid and at the very least during the call he seemingly wanted to make Zimmerman feel unwelcome or uncomfortable.

I think the strong language thereafter from GZ was more a result of Martin coming up to him in what he perceived as a threatening manner than just simply because he thought he was doing something wrong and was about to get away.

Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 17, 2013, 03:03:07 AM
See?  I don't see that at all.  It isn't like he said THAT Effing Punk or THAT A-hole. To me, it is Zimmerman speaking of the situation in generalities and not singling out Martin at all.  It falls more in line with the "we've had some break-ins" statement at the beginning of the NEN.

Perspective.  It's a funny thing. 
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 17, 2013, 04:46:57 AM
To me, it is Zimmerman speaking of the situation in generalities and not singling out Martin at all. 

I agree that Zimmerman wasn't singling Martin out. That doesn't mean he wasn't reacting to Martin's behavior. Those are different things.

Martin was there. The other 'punks' and 'a*holes' weren't.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 20, 2013, 10:35:45 PM
3. Quite cautious about getting close to the suspects.  Didn't want to attract attention by getting the license number of their white Chevy Impala in 4; didn't want to approach the guy hanging around Taafe's house in 6.  With Martin, the suspect actually approached his car and looked at him, tugging his waistband, so you would think he would be even more cautious.  But he was uncharacteristically reckless on 2/26/12

I think Zimmerman explained this himself, the first time Singleton asked him for his story.

2/16-1, 2:44-53
Quote
Zimmerman: Just tonight?

Singleton: Yeah, what, or whatever led up to this. Anything you want to tell me about what happened and why it ended up, what it ended up to, to where this, this, this boy got shot.

Zimmerman responded by talking about the burglaries and starting the Neighborhood Watch. As Zimmerman was explaining why he thought Martin was suspicious, they were interrupted by someone calling Singleton. Singleton asked Zimmerman who to contact about the security cameras. When that was done, this:

2/26-1, 9:44-10:03
Quote
Singleton: OK, let's get back to where you were. OK. You started a neighborhood watch group?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: OK. And?

Zimmerman: I had called before, and the police had come out. But, these guys know the neighborhood very well, and they would cut in between buildings and lose -

Singleton: You're saying "these guys." Who are "these guys"?

Zimmerman: The people coming in, the burglars.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

This was Zimmerman's spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night. He didn't mention the dispatcher until much later, when the NEN call came up in narrating the events of the night.

I think this response carries the explanation for Zimmerman actinging differently that night. What he had been doing wasn't working, and he decided to try a more active approach.

Sean's questions weren't fundamentally different from Sharon's or Renee's. It was Zimmerman who was different that night.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: MJW on February 21, 2013, 12:03:54 AM
This was Zimmerman's spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night. He didn't mention the dispatcher until much later, when the NEN call came up in narrating the events of the night.

Sounds to me like this was Zimmerman's spontaneous response to a question about why he started the neighborhood watch program.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 21, 2013, 01:19:25 AM
Sounds to me like this was Zimmerman's spontaneous response to a question about why he started the neighborhood watch program.

I didn't hear Singleton ask that.

Singleton asked what led up to the shooting. Zimmerman responded by saying he started a NW because of burglaries. Then he moved on to the events of 2/26.

After the interruption, Singleton backtracked a bit. She mentioned Zimmerman starting the NW. Then she said 'And?', which I take to mean 'What happened next?' I don't see interpreting that 'And?' to mean 'Why did you start the NW?'

I take Zimmerman's response as continuing to fill in the background to the shooting. Why he started the NW had already been explained.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: MJW on February 21, 2013, 01:30:11 AM
I didn't hear Singleton ask that.

You didn't? She says, "You started a neighborhood watch group?" Zimmerman replies, "Yes, ma'am." Singleton then says, "OK. And?" If I were Zimmerman, I would take that to mean, "Go on..." That is, as a invitation to expand on what he just said. Maybe you wouldn't take it that way, but I certainly thinks it's a reasonable interpretation, and I venture to say that's how most people would take it.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 21, 2013, 01:37:20 AM
If I were Zimmerman, I would take that to mean, "Go on..." That is, as a invitation to expand on what he just said.

Exactly so.

I think she was asking him to go on explaining what NW had to do with the shooting. I don't think she was asking Zimmerman to explain why he started the NW. He had already explained that. Did Singleton say something to suggest she wasn't satisfied with his explanation?
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 21, 2013, 01:53:15 AM
4. Except for the two inconsequential calls 3 and 5, the approximate timings were between 1:42 and 2:07 minutes, must less time than with the call with Nofke. 

Three different things went into making that call so long.

The first was Martin approaching Zimmerman. That resulted in Zimmerman updating his description of Martin. Btw, I think this part of the NEN call casts doubt on the very beginning of Zimmerman's story, when he passed Martin closely before stopping to call. It sure sounds to me like Zimmerman getting a close look at Martin for the first time.

The second thing prolonging the call was Zimmerman forgetting the name of TTL. That resulted in Zimmerman giving lengthy directions, correcting himself a few times, and in he and Sean going back and forth with Zimmerman's home address and the canceled mailbox meeting.

The third thing was Martin running. Zimmerman didn't say much during the 'wind noise' period, just the whispered curse, 'Yeah', 'OK', 'George', and 'He ran'. Besides prolonging the call directly, this episode interrupted Zimmerman's directions, so he had to start them over again.

Martin approaching and passing the truck took about 40 seconds. Zimmerman's aborted directions took about 20 seconds, compared with about 10 seconds for 'Altermese Bentley'. Then Zimmerman reported Martin running, and it was another 20 seconds before the call returned to routine by Sean asking Zimmerman's name. The second directions period was about 20 seconds again. Then the address and mailbox exchange was about 30 seconds.

That adds up to about two minutes. Subtract that, and the time is in the ballpark with the earlier calls.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: MJW on February 21, 2013, 02:19:23 AM
Did Singleton say something to suggest she wasn't satisfied with his explanation?

Was there something in the rest of Singleton's interview that suggested to you that her questioning was so precise and focused that she wouldn't return to a matter that was already covered?
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 21, 2013, 08:17:08 AM
The way I view the main difference between the 2/26 call and the previous ones is that on 2/26 Zimmerman had the idea in his head that he should try to keep the suspicious person in view, whether by car or on foot.  In the first call he seems to have wanted to do that too, but Shelly nixed that plan.  If he had been in the same mood as in the five subsequent calls he would have told Sean that he didn't want to be noticeable or approach the suspect closer after, "Okay, just let me know if this guy does anything else".   And certainly there would not have been any need for Sean to say, "We don't need you to do that" as far as following on foot.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 21, 2013, 11:19:26 AM
Was there something in the rest of Singleton's interview that suggested to you that her questioning was so precise and focused that she wouldn't return to a matter that was already covered?

No. She did so at times. I still don't understand why you think she was doing so at the point we are discussing.

You said yourself that 'And?' suggests '"Go on..."', not 'Go back'.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: MJW on February 21, 2013, 12:39:02 PM
No. She did so at times. I still don't understand why you think she was doing so at the point we are discussing.

You said yourself that 'And?' suggests '"Go on..."', not 'Go back'.

Because she asked, ""You started a neighborhood watch group?" That seems like she's asking Zimmerman to talk about the reasons behind starting the neighborhood watch group. Even if that's not what she intended, that's could be how Zimmerman interpreted it. That's how I interpreted it.

I don't see how you can call what Zimmerman said a "spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night" when Singleton had just brought up starting the neighborhood watch -- an event that happened months before.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 21, 2013, 12:40:37 PM
Because she asked, ""You started a neighborhood watch group?" That seems like she's asking Zimmerman to talk about starting the neighborhood watch group. Even if that's not what she intended, that's could be how Zimmerman interpreted it. That's how I interpreted it.

I don't see how you can call what Zimmerman's said a "spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night" when Singleton had just brought up starting the neighborhood watch -- an event that happened months before.

I might be wrong but every time the detectives and even the Dispatcher interrupted Zimmerman, he began again at the point of the last question.  If he has ADD that may be a pattern that he just does and really has little to do with the person asking the questions.

Just IMO.  I usually get change back from my two cents.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: leftwig on February 21, 2013, 05:25:50 PM
I think Zimmerman explained this himself, the first time Singleton asked him for his story.

2/16-1, 2:44-53
Zimmerman responded by talking about the burglaries and starting the Neighborhood Watch. As Zimmerman was explaining why he thought Martin was suspicious, they were interrupted by someone calling Singleton. Singleton asked Zimmerman who to contact about the security cameras. When that was done, this:

2/26-1, 9:44-10:03
Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

This was Zimmerman's spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night. He didn't mention the dispatcher until much later, when the NEN call came up in narrating the events of the night.

I think this response carries the explanation for Zimmerman actinging differently that night. What he had been doing wasn't working, and he decided to try a more active approach.

Sean's questions weren't fundamentally different from Sharon's or Renee's. It was Zimmerman who was different that night.

AFAIK this is the first occurrence of GZ being in his vehicle when calling NEN.   Asking if you had gotten a plate number (past tense) is different than asking to "let me know if he does anything" and" which way is he running" (present tense).  That GZ did not exit his vehicle while TM was in site or near his vehicle tells me he wasn't interested in being any more confrontational than the previous calls (something he was berated for by Serino).  During the re-enactment GZ's recollection was the operator asking him to get to where he can see TM (either fabrication or his recollection of the interpretation to "let me know if he does anything").  GZ also apparently stops immediately when the operator says that they didn't need him to follow TM.  I think it would be foolish to discount the difference in situations as well as the discussion with the operator in analyzing why GZ's actions were different this time.  I do think guys getting away in the past played a part as well.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: RickyJim on February 21, 2013, 06:25:50 PM
AFAIK this is the first occurrence of GZ being in his vehicle when calling NEN.   Asking if you had gotten a plate number (past tense) is different than asking to "let me know if he does anything" and" which way is he running" (present tense).  That GZ did not exit his vehicle while TM was in site or near his vehicle tells me he wasn't interested in being any more confrontational than the previous calls (something he was berated for by Serino).  During the re-enactment GZ's recollection was the operator asking him to get to where he can see TM (either fabrication or his recollection of the interpretation to "let me know if he does anything").  GZ also apparently stops immediately when the operator says that they didn't need him to follow TM.  I think it would be foolish to discount the difference in situations as well as the discussion with the operator in analyzing why GZ's actions were different this time.  I do think guys getting away in the past played a part as well.
How do you know none of the previous calls weren't from inside the car?  In the first, he refuses to give his home address because "he obviously is in the neighborhood" but at the end Shelly tells him, "Don't go out there".   Could George or Shelly see somebody from inside their house heading for the back entrance?  I think it likely he was in his car during the second call since he says he would let the police in at the back entrance.  I have seen no explanation why he didn't decide to do that also in the 2/26/12 call. 

Saying that he "apparently stops immediately when the operator says that they didn't need him to follow TM." is absurd.  Even though he was quite close to TTL, if he wasn't running after he left his car, he kept going down the cut through to RVC.  What would he have done if didn't "stop immediately"?  I don't think he would have entered the dogpath with only his penlight working. 
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 21, 2013, 09:39:08 PM
Could George or Shelly see somebody from inside their house heading for the back entrance?

I think so. The unit they were living in was right at the SW bend of RVC. Their front window would have a view all the way to the SE bend.

On the 8/6/11 call, Zimmerman said the two suspects were 'at the back gate', not just headed there. They wouldn't have been able to see the gate itself or the immediate area from their unit.

The gate is at the end of TTL, a block east of where it crosses RVC. That intersection is a block north of the previously mentioned bend. Those are short blocks, the width of one building and the associated lawns. It's enough for the gate, and the stretch of TTL leading to it, to be out of the view from the SW bend of RVC. 

Quote
I think it likely he was in his car during the second call since he says he would let the police in at the back entrance.  I have seen no explanation why he didn't decide to do that also in the 2/26/12 call.

This has been discussed. It is said that gated communities generally permit access for emergency vehicles. I would assume they would be legally required to do so.

On 8/6, Zimmerman said he would let the officers in the back gate because 'there's no code there'. I don't know exactly what that means, but I'm guessing the gate had to be opened manually on that particular day for some special reason, such as maintenance work.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 21, 2013, 09:57:42 PM
GZ also apparently stops immediately when the operator says that they didn't need him to follow TM.

Saying that he "apparently stops immediately when the operator says that they didn't need him to follow TM." is absurd.

From the reenactment on, Zimmerman claimed he wasn't following Martin at that time. He was in full address hunt mode. He had already stopped following, or he never really was.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 21, 2013, 10:41:53 PM
AFAIK this is the first occurrence of GZ being in his vehicle when calling NEN.

AFAIK Zimmerman could have been in a vehicle for most of the earlier calls. Generally neither the audio recordings of the calls, nor the Event Reports, give much or any indication of the caller's location.

If it was the first time he was in a vehicle, so what? What significance does Zimmerman being or not being in vehicle have?

Quote
Asking if you had gotten a plate number (past tense) is different than asking to "let me know if he does anything" and" which way is he running" (present tense).

I don't agree that the tense makes a substantive difference. That's being over-literal. If Zimmerman didn't have the tag number already, but could have gotten it just by looking out the window, do you think Sharon wouldn't have wanted the information?

In each case the dispatcher expressed interest in certain information. In no case did the dispatcher suggest Zimmerman change his location or put himself at risk to gain the information. Those are the only relevant issues I can see.   
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 21, 2013, 11:56:34 PM
Because she asked, ""You started a neighborhood watch group?" That seems like she's asking Zimmerman to talk about the reasons behind starting the neighborhood watch group.

Why does it seem that way? Where are you getting 'reasons' from?

You are just repeating your point, not explaining it.

Quote
Even if that's not what she intended, that's could be how Zimmerman interpreted it.

I don't see any reason to think he did.

Quote
I don't see how you can call what Zimmerman said a "spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night" when Singleton had just brought up starting the neighborhood watch -- an event that happened months before.

They were were talking about the NW only because Zimmerman brought it up originally, in response to:

Quote
Singleton: Yeah, what, or whatever led up to this. Anything you want to tell me about what happened and why it ended up, what it ended up to, to where this, this, this boy got shot.

Singleton 'brought it up' only in the sense that she was calling Zimmerman's attention to what he said earlier, to get the interview back on track after an interruption. It seems clear to me that she was still inviting Zimmerman's response to her earlier, open-ended question. 'And?' is pretty open-ended.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 22, 2013, 12:29:58 AM
I might be wrong but every time the detectives and even the Dispatcher interrupted Zimmerman, he began again at the point of the last question.

Response (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2037.msg106720.html#msg106720) to the general point on George as a Witness thread.

The last question before the interruption was 'Had you seen him before?' (2/26-1, 4:28)

Singleton never asked Zimmerman to explain why he started the NW.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: MJW on February 22, 2013, 01:24:01 AM
Why does it seem that way? Where are you getting 'reasons' from?

You are just repeating your point, not explaining it.

First time:

Quote
Singleton: OK. OK, you started a ah
Zimmerman: neighborhood watch.
Singleton: neighborhood watch. OK.
Zimmerman: With Wendy Dorval and ah ah Sergeant Herkz, Officer Buchanan, and I’m the coordinator, and there’s been a few, um, times where I’ve seen a suspicious person in the neighborhood, um, we call the police, the non-emergency line and these guys always get away, they
Singleton: OK, what made them suspicious?
Zimmerman: This gentleman in particular? Um, I’d never seen him in the neighborhood. I know all the residents. Um, it was raining out, and he was leisurely walking, taking his time, looking at all the houses.

Second time:

Quote
Singleton: door opens and closes…unintelligible…OK, let’s get back to where we were. OK, um, you started a neighborhood watch group.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK. and
Zimmerman: Um, I had called before and the police had come out, but these guys know the neighborhood very well and they would cut in between buildings and lose..
Singleton: You’re saying these guys. Who are these guys.
Zimmerman: Ah, the people committing the burglaries.
Singleton: So you’ve seen more than one person like looking suspicious and doing these burglaries?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

The second time is a virtual replay of the first. Singleton asks about Zimmerman starting the neighborhood watch;  Zimmerman explains how he'd call the police before, but the suspicious people would get away; Singleton asks about the other suspicious people Zimmerman had seen.
Title: Re: Previous NEN Calls
Post by: leftwig on February 22, 2013, 08:06:49 AM
I want to clarify a point.  When I suggest this is the first call that I know of where GZ was in his car, I am referring to the specific calls quoting his actions being different (the ones where he didn't get the license plate and the other where he mentioned not wanting to confront the individual).   He could have been in his car when reporting garage doors open or kids playing in the street, but I don't think those calls have any relevance to this discussion. 

AFAIK Zimmerman could have been in a vehicle for most of the earlier calls. Generally neither the audio recordings of the calls, nor the Event Reports, give much or any indication of the caller's location.

If it was the first time he was in a vehicle, so what? What significance does Zimmerman being or not being in vehicle have?

I didn't realize an explanation was necessary.  A car would offer a sense of security, protection from a confrontation and the ability to flee quickly if necessary.  Walking up to a suspect would be considerably more risky.

Quote
I don't agree that the tense makes a substantive difference. That's being over-literal. If Zimmerman didn't have the tag number already, but could have gotten it just by looking out the window, do you think Sharon wouldn't have wanted the information?

We are at an impasse as I see a dispatcher asking real time questions as being a significant difference that might lead to a change in actions.  Asking to "let me know if he does anything" and "which way is he running" are not requests other dispatchers made.  Again, I don't think this was the sole reason GZ acted differently, but I do believe it played a role.

In the previous call, did the dispatcher ask if he had gotten a plate number or if he could get one?  Do you think GZ could have gotten the tag of the vehicle parked by the back gate by looking out the window of his house?  Do you think GZ wouldn't have gotten the plate number if he could have without being conspicuous?

Quote
In each case the dispatcher expressed interest in certain information. In no case did the dispatcher suggest Zimmerman change his location or put himself at risk to gain the information. Those are the only relevant issues I can see.

This case was different as GZ was observing real time and the dispatcher was asking for real time information and  prompting GZ's involvement.  Sean asked that GZ let him know if this guy does anything.  GZ apparently interpreted this as a request for him to get to somewhere where he could observe TM.  I don't think GZ felt he was putting himself at risk by doing this from the security of his vehicle.  Sean asked GZ which way he was running.  I don't think he meant for GZ to get out of his vehicle and follow TM.  I don't think at that moment GZ felt he was putting himself at risk by getting out of the vehicle to see if he could tell where TM ran off to.

Like the other NEN calls, I don't believe GZ wanted to put himself at risk and confront the suspect and in the last case he had several opportunities to do so and did not.  I'm not sure how those suggesting GZ confronted TM reconciles this fact.