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State v. George Zimmerman (Pre-Trial) => Martin Family & Team Crump => Topic started by: nomatter_nevermind on February 28, 2013, 09:12:24 PM

Title: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 28, 2013, 09:12:24 PM
This comes up now and then in threads where it isn't on topic, so I think it needs it's own.

2/27/12, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w47eL_jTieI&feature=related) 1:12-25
Quote
Brandy Green: He don't know anybody here. He just came down here. He was bored. So he walked to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting out on the porch. And this man killed him? Are you serious?

3/22/12, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pvLn28SkzPQ) 1:29-44
Quote
Tracy Martin: It wasn't even a football length's field, football field length, away from the back door. About seventy yards. Seventy yards at best. He was trying to get home. Right down the street. We was sitting out on the back.

3/22/12, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x34vSJrIqe0#) 0:35-44
Quote
Tracy Martin: I don't know the exact path he took, but he did come in that back gate. And I know he was going to the back of the house. He was sitting out there.

It is often suggested that these statements indicate that after Trayvon Martin visited the 7-11 on 2/26/12, he returned to the townhome and sat on the patio for a time, before the shooting. This doesn't make sense to me.

None of the statements say explicitly that Martin reached the townhome. Two imply that he did not.

Brandy Green
Quote
He was on his way back home.

Tracy Martin
Quote
He was trying to get home.

The lawyers speaking for the family, have consistently maintained that Trayvon was on his way home at the time of the shooting. This is also the position of the prosecution's Affidavit of Probable Cause. (http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/04/trayvon-martin-shooting-death-affidavit-of-probable-cause-text-version.html)

Sitting on a patio in the rain, even a covered patio, doesn't seem likely to me. The wind would blow the rain in and the seating would get wet.

How would Brandy and Tracy know that Trayvon was sitting on the patio? They say they were out, and Chad says he didn't see Trayvon after he left for the 7-11. Maybe they aren't all telling the truth, but I know of no actual evidence for that.

Brandy was speaking on the very day she learned of Trayvon's death. Tracy lost his own son. To me it seems clear that their minds wandered in their grief, making context-free allusions to some earlier occasion. In one of the quotes, Tracy said that 'We was sitting out on the back', not Trayvon alone.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: MJW on February 28, 2013, 09:46:52 PM
Brandy was speaking on the very day she learned of Trayvon's death. Tracy lost his own son. To me it seems clear that their minds wandered in their grief, making context-free allusions to some earlier occasion. In one of the quotes, Tracy said that 'We was sitting out on the back', not Trayvon alone.

It does seem quite strange that both their minds would wander back to the same image of Martin sitting on the  porch.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 28, 2013, 09:56:27 PM
It does seem quite strange that both their minds would wander back to the same image of Martin sitting on the  porch.

We don't know that it was the same image. They may have been thinking of different occasions when he was sitting on the patio.

He may have been spending most of his time on the patio, talking on the phone to his friends in Miami.

Without knowing more about such things, I don't think we are in a position to say it is strange.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: MJW on February 28, 2013, 10:14:26 PM
We don't know that it was the same image. They may have been thinking of different occasions when he was sitting on the patio.

I didn't mean their two images were synchronized to the second. I just meant it's weird they both had mental cutaways to Martin sitting of the porch. That one of them would do so strikes me as slightly odd. That they'd both do so is oddness squared. Even if he sat on the porch all day, I'd still find it strange they'd both bring it up in that context.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: unitron on March 01, 2013, 07:33:37 AM
I think their reaction was more along the lines of "Old man Miller's dead?  But I was talking to him in the grocery store just yesterday!", than an intended chronologically consistent statement of fact.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: leftwig on March 01, 2013, 12:12:26 PM
I don't think I've heard anyone other than Brandy or Tracy suggest TM was actually sitting on the porch that night after returning from the store.  Tracy and Brandy made those comments the day after the shooting.  They likely were not aware of exactly what time the shooting occurred or what time TM may have returned home from the store.  Brandy immediately follows up the comment of "he was just sitting out on the porch" with "AND this man killed him".  The use of "and" indicates a follow up/continutation of a previous comment and in general, belongs to the comment immediately proceeding.  Do we know this is what she meant?  No, but I think its as reasonable as any other conclusion.  I also think Tracy's second quote you provide appears to be him saying TM was sitting on the back porch upon returning.  What would sitting on the back porch weeks/months earlier have to do with knowing TM would have come in the back gate that night? 

This is clearly speculation because neither of the two provide any explanation for their comments, but I can think of a couple of reasons they may have thought TM was on the porch before GZ killed him.  One is that TM may have left something there.  I know many question this since he had juice and Skittles in his pocket so why wouldn't he drop everything off if he dropped something off.  But what was missing from his possession was anything else.  This is not yet in evidence, but I think there is some circumstantial evidence that he likely had something else with him as he started his journey home.  The only other thing from the 7/11 found on his person was a lighter which appears to be something he had with him versus acquired. 

The other possibility is he got in the back door and let Chad know he was back, but was heading back out and Chad told Brandy and Tracy this.  I know Chad has not said this occurred, but I think its a distinct possibility that Chad hasn't let us in on everything he knows about that night.  He says he called TM to see when he was getting back from the store and TM said he was on his way back.  Now, I've been really hungry before and I really like Skittles, but I have to imagine Chad called TM because he was interested in more than when his Skittles would arrive (worried, knew TM was out to get something more than Skittles, etc).  Chad was concerned enough to call him and find out when he'd be home roughly an hour or so from when he left, but never bothered trying to call him again or figure out what happened to him until Tracy and Brandy got back around 3 hours later?  Emergency vehicles were in the area for hours and he had no idea they were there?  Also said TM went to the store to get a snack and Chad asked for the Skittles.   TM was walking 1.5 miles round trip on a cool overcast/rainy night because he wanted a snack, but didn't get one?   His story is very brief and makes very little sense.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: MJW on March 01, 2013, 12:39:12 PM
I think their reaction was more along the lines of "Old man Miller's dead?  But I was talking to him in the grocery store just yesterday!", than an intended chronologically consistent statement of fact.

But neither phrased it that way. If they'd said, "Just yesterday Trayvon was sitting on the porch," there'd be no question about what they meant. Both stated it as if it were at the time Martin was shot.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 01, 2013, 02:09:26 PM
Tracy and Brandy made those comments the day after the shooting. 

Sorry, that's not correct.

The dates are in the first post.

Brandy's comment was the day after the shooting, 2/27. Both of Tracy's were on 3/22, over three weeks later. I know of no others.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 01, 2013, 07:50:19 PM
One of the links in the first post is already broken. Here's the replacement.

MSNBC, 3/22/12, (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45755884/vp/46828740#46828740) 1:41-56
Quote
Tracy Martin: It wasn't even a football length's field, football field length, away from the back door. About seventy yards. Seventy yards at best. He was trying to get home. Right down the street. We was sitting out on the back.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: whonoze on March 01, 2013, 11:49:54 PM
Both stated it as if it were at the time Martin was shot.

I'm sorry, but that's just false. In Brandi Green's comment as shown on the Fox 35 news clip, it is actually quite clear that she means it as NMNM has interpreted it. If you listen to ALL the 911 calls, you will hear over and over that people do not use proper verb tenses in describing dramatic events. For example, (just one of many), John says "There's two guys wrestling" in his backyard, and a guy "is screaming" in his 911 call which was placed AFTER the gunshot, so he meant two guys WERE wrestling and someone WAS screaming. There is no more to Brandi Green's language than there is to John's, which is nothing at all. This is just how people talk. Their minds run ahead of their tongues, they draw different associations, shift focus in mid-sentence, and things come out quite differently than they would if the speakers were setting their thoughts down in written language. Green is not being literal, her comment is clearly figurative as well as being abbreviated. 'Sitting on the porch' is a trope for Trayvon being at rest, minding his own business, in terms of his behavior not just earlier in that day, but since he had been in Sanford. To take her words literally here is utterly without warrant.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: MJW on March 02, 2013, 01:29:56 AM
I'm sorry, but that's just false. In Brandi Green's comment as shown on the Fox 35 news clip, it is actually quite clear that she means it as NMNM has interpreted it.

It isn't false. Nothing in the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w47eL_jTieI#!) gives a different impression than the quote:

Quote
Brandy Green: He don't know anybody here. He just came down here. He was bored. So he walked to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting out on the porch. And this man killed him? Are you serious?

The examples you give, such as "There's two guys wrestling," have nothing to do with it. Those are a standard English device called "narrative present tense" which is often used when relating dramatic events (and telling jokes). Green uses the past progressive ("was sitting") and past tense ("killed'). It isn't the verb tense, anyway; it's the way she seems to associate the two actions.

I've said in the past, and I'll say again, that I think most likely she was just thinking of some past occasion, unrelated to the time of the shooting. But it's still odd, and made much odder by Tracy seeming to do the same.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: FromBelow on March 02, 2013, 02:28:16 AM
I've said in the past, and I'll say again, that I think most likely she was just thinking of some past occasion, unrelated to the time of the shooting. But it's still odd, and made much odder by Tracy seeming to do the same.

It could just be that Tracy and Brandy had recently talked to each other about Trayvon's porch sitting activities so it was fresh in both their minds. Maybe he spent a lot of his time sitting on the porch. There are any number of rational explanations. Still, either Trayvon was hiding for several minutes near the T or he walked/ran somewhere to eventually end up back there. Without the GPS data we may never really know his exact movements. I find witness #2 seeing (more hearing) a figure running north past her window interesting. I've always thought that might be Trayvon running from Brandy's house along the east side houses to finally confront George. George did indicate Trayvon came up to him from the East/SE. Heck, maybe he did make it to the porch then went back to confront George. If so how the heck would Tracy or Brandy know he did?
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: DiwataMan on March 02, 2013, 03:19:42 AM
They lie so who we'll never know. Just from these videos Tracy says if Trayvon had 2 minutes his life would be spared. Well we know Trayvon ran while George was sitting in his truck, was probably a 10 second run away from home and had at least 3 minutes.

Brandy says Trayvon "donít know anybody here". Really? Then who are these kids:

March 22, 2012 - Sanford, FL, USA - [KATHLEEN FLYNN l Tampa Bay Times].OT_351910_FLYN_trayvon_2 (3/21/2012, Sanford).James Young, 13, left, and his cousins ferternal twins T.J. Jones and T.Y. Jones, both 14, live in The Retreat at Twin Lakes where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in Sanford on March 21, 2012. Trayvon was killed on his way home from buying snacks at a local Seven Eleven. The boys said they played football with Trayvon whenever he was in town visitng his dad. They said he was always nice to them.
http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/42-33532854/trayvon-martin-memorial-

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/trayvon-martins-killing-shatters-safety-within-retreat-at-twin-lakes-in/1221799

Or the guys at the 711?

And why does Tracy say to the Sharpton crew Trayvon came in the front gate but to the Sentinel crew he says back gate?
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: FromBelow on March 02, 2013, 04:06:22 AM
They lie so who we'll never know. Just from these videos Tracy says if Trayvon had 2 minutes his life would be spared. Well we know Trayvon ran while George was sitting in his truck, was probably a 10 second run away from home and had at least 3 minutes.

Dee Dee also said that Trayvon kept moving. Walking, not running. Nothing in what she said suggests Trayvon was hiding from George. So unless she's lying, or Trayvon lied to her which would make everything he told her suspect, Trayvon was going somewhere but ultimately ended up right back at the T.

Heck, he would have easily gotten to the house before George even finished the NEN call if that was his intent. Which, IMO, makes the NEN operator George's alibi. He obviously wasn't pursuing Trayvon during the call. We would have heard it. And since Trayvon was walking somewhere (according to DD) it's obvious the house wasn't his intended, or at least final, destination. George was where he should have been if his story about returning to his truck is true. Trayvon wasn't where he should have been if his intent was to just get back to the house and watch the game.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: DebFrmHell on March 02, 2013, 07:25:42 AM
Quote
And why does Tracy say to the Sharpton crew Trayvon came in the front gate but to the Sentinel crew he says back gate?

In that video interview he is talking about the back gate while pointing towards the front gate.  I have always thought that it was probably because he was coming off the freeway on his visits and used the back gate as his primary entrance.  The proximity of the Green TH to the gate is much closer and ease of access to/from the freeway. 
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: leftwig on March 02, 2013, 08:11:44 AM
Sorry, that's not correct.

The dates are in the first post.

Brandy's comment was the day after the shooting, 2/27. Both of Tracy's were on 3/22, over three weeks later. I know of no others.

Thanks for the correction.  I thought he mentioned it once the same day BG was interviewed, but I can't locate any such statement.  Given the content of Tracy's statements (and knowing he hadn't been on the porch with TM this trip), I don't find the timing overly relevant.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: FromBelow on March 02, 2013, 03:01:28 PM
Hmmm. "Are you following him?"  "Yeah."

Dispatcher: "Okay, we don't need you to do that."
George: "OK"

If Trayvon had continued walking as DD says (she also says Trayvon lost George), and George had continued following, the confrontation would never have occurred because Trayvon would have been back at the house before the NEN call ended. It certainly wouldn't have occurred at the T as witness #11 says. She heard the fight start at the T and move south. Her house is also closest to the T and she was the first to call  911.

Quote
deleted by talkleft

See above. I know that Trayvon chose to be at the T. If he hadn't chosen to be there he wouldn't have been there with all his walking and running. Why was Trayvon at the T if not to be where George was?

EDIT: BTW, I'm not relying on George's statements. I've referenced DD's statements, the NEN call and witness #11's statements. I'm not sure why you would suggest I'm relying on George's statements.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: unitron on March 02, 2013, 04:03:21 PM
I guess you missed my point. George was on the phone with the NEN dispatcher. He certainly wasn't interfering with Trayvon's movements or pursuing him during that time. Where Trayvon chose to be wasn't at the house he was staying at as it would be if after 'losing' George (according to DD) he went on with his business. i.e. He chose not to go to the house he was staying at. Or rather, if he did go to the house he didn't stay there. He chose to be, by some route, at the T where George was. He chose to confront George. Do you have another explanation for how he could keep walking (according to DD) for all the time George was still talking to the NEN dispatcher and not be back at the house? Maybe he was walking in place?

He was interfering with Trayvon's movements to the extent that Trayvon most likely thought it necessary to not move anywhere where he might be seen by George.

And the young lady's account doesn't have him going to find George just prior to the first exchange of words, but rather George finding him.

And the darkness may well have played a role in determining who walked where when at what rate.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: RickyJim on March 02, 2013, 06:23:38 PM
...
See above. I know that Trayvon chose to be at the T. If he hadn't chosen to be there he wouldn't have been there with all his walking and running. Why was Trayvon at the T if not to be where George was?

EDIT: BTW, I'm not relying on George's statements. I've referenced DD's statements, the NEN call and witness #11's statements. I'm not sure why you would suggest I'm relying on George's statements.
You don't need George's or DeeDee's statements to conclude he more likely than not, never entered the dogpath until Martin met him the T.  Let us not speculate on what GPS data might reveal.  I am assuming the cops will back him up that his Ridgeline was parked where he said it was.  We have fairly conclusive evidence that his large flashlight wasn't working.  Also the dogpath had poorer illumination than the cut through between TTL and RVC due to the former having continuous shadows from two close rows of houses.  At that to credible witness testimony that the confrontation started on the north side of Witness 11's house and you have the preponderance of evidence supporting the claim.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 02, 2013, 06:32:14 PM

Well we know Trayvon ran while George was sitting in his truck, was probably a 10 second run away from home

On Google Earth, it looks like about 120 yards (110 meters) from Brandy Green's back door to the last point Zimmerman could have seen Trayvon from the truck.

World records for the hundred yard dash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_yard_dash) and hundred meter sprint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_metre_sprint) are between 9 and 10 seconds.   

Quote
Brandy says Trayvon "donít know anybody here". Really? Then who are these kids . . . Or the guys at the 711?

I think you're being over-literal. Trayvon obviously knew Brandy, and Chad. (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2132.msg105575.html#msg105575)

The context was of Brandy saying Trayvon was bored. I think she meant he didn't have a buddy his own age to hang with.

The kids in the article are Chad's age, and the only thing they mention doing with Trayvon is playing football.

The 7-11 guys are older, and apparently not close enough to Trayvon to give him a ride home. Discussion of them is limited here, but I hope I can say that I'm not aware of any evidence that Trayvon had a prior acquaintance with them. If he did, Brandy may not have known about them.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: DiwataMan on March 02, 2013, 07:18:17 PM
FromBelow: George was on the phone with the NEN dispatcher. He certainly wasn't interfering with Trayvon's movements or pursuing him during that time.

whonoze: Hmmm. "Are you following him?"  "Yeah."

Diwataman: Trayvon ran while George was in his sitting in his truck. DD even says Trayvon was not aware of George "following" him after this until he later saw him out of his truck.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: MJW on March 02, 2013, 08:04:47 PM
The 7-11 guys are older, and apparently not close enough to Trayvon to give him a ride home. Discussion of them is limited here, but I hope I can say that I'm not aware of any evidence that Trayvon had a prior acquaintance with them. If he did, Brandy may not have known about them.

I'm not saying I think they did give him a ride home, but what evidence, besides DeeDee, shows they didn't? What evidence shows they arrived in a car?
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: RickyJim on March 02, 2013, 08:12:26 PM
I'm not saying I think they did give him a ride home, but what evidence, besides DeeDee, shows they didn't? What evidence shows they arrived in a car?
Proving a negative is tough but I think Trayvon met them about 6:15 PM so it is doubtful they drove him home right away.  You know what is going to happen if we try to speculate on the details of how Trayvon spent his last hour.  ;)
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: FromBelow on March 02, 2013, 08:23:37 PM
I'm not saying I think they did give him a ride home, but what evidence, besides DeeDee, shows they didn't? What evidence shows they arrived in a car?

Why not drive Trayvon all the way to Brandy's house? There really doesn't seem to be anything to suggest Trayvon got a ride. And keep in mind that in the 7-11 video Trayvon was turning away from where these young men supposedly where and walking away from them (seen through the window of the 7-11).
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 02, 2013, 11:17:52 PM
In that video interview he is talking about the back gate while pointing towards the front gate.

Also, later in the video, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x34vSJrIqe0#) Tracy said that Trayvon came in the front gate (1:03-7).

Quote
I have always thought that it was probably because he was coming off the freeway on his visits and used the back gate as his primary entrance.  The proximity of the Green TH to the gate is much closer and ease of access to/from the freeway.

What freeway?

It looks like the way to get to RATL from the rest of the world, is to take I-4 to Highway 417, exit to Rinehart Rd., and go to Oregon Ave., which goes by the front (N) gate of the complex.

The complex has a 15 mph speed limit. You can see one of the signs (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7807621840/in/set-72157630837258338) in the reenactment. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4)

If I were going to or from a place inside the complex, I would want to use the entrance closest to that place, regardless of which way I was going or coming outside the complex. So I think Brandy and Tracy would have mainly used the back (SE) gate.

The gate is near the south end of the east wall. Brandy's unit faces east, the same way as the gate, which is just around the corner from it. Going out the front gate on foot, it would be natural to exit the unit by the front door. By car, which is probably how the adults usually went, the same would be true because the cars are parked in front of the units.

Early in the video (0:35), Tracy said that Trayvon came in by 'that back gate', gesturing toward the N gate, as you mentioned. In the next sentence, he said Trayvon 'was going to the back of the house'.

Later in the video (1:03-7), Tracy said this:

Quote
When he said the clubhouse, I knew for a fact that Trayvon came in that, the front gate.

To me it sounds like Tracy might have been about to repeat 'that back gate', only at the last second recalling that the N gate is officially the front gate.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 03, 2013, 12:42:27 AM
What evidence shows they arrived in a car?

In the 7-11 video, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTv4hMXZgPU&feature=youtu.be) a car pulls into a parking space in front of the store just before the three come in (4:41), and backs out just after they leave (9:56).

To be honest, I didn't check that before I posted. So mea culpa on facts not in evidence.

It's also possible Martin didn't want a ride home. Zimmerman thought he didn't seem to mind being in the rain.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 03, 2013, 01:42:12 AM
Take IH4 north to H. E. Thomas Parkway . . .

Oh, that freeway.  ;D

Right you are. In the other direction, out the SE gate, right on S. Oregon Ave., and you're at the Parkway in .36 miles.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 03, 2013, 03:04:05 AM
What would sitting on the back porch weeks/months earlier have to do with knowing TM would have come in the back gate that night?

Where do you get weeks/months?

What would sitting on the back patio that night have to do with where he entered the complex, or whether he went to the front or the back of the townhouse?

Trayvon could have come in the house by the front door, walked all the way through, and sat on the back patio. He could have come in through the back, walked through, and sat on the front patio. What patio he sat on, or if he sat on a patio at all, has nothing to do with how he came into the house.

If Tracy thought Trayvon got home and sat on the patio, why did he say 'he was going to the back of the house', instead of 'he went to the back of the house'?

This was on the same day that Tracy said Trayvon was at most 70 yards from home, and lamented that he didn't have time to get home. Why did he say that, if he believed Trayvon did get home?

Tracy did say 'He was sitting out there', immediately after 'And I know he was going to the back of the house.' He didn't say what, if anything, those two thoughts had to do with one another.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: leftwig on March 03, 2013, 10:12:36 AM
Tracy Martin: "He was trying to get home. Right down the street. We was sitting out on the back."

IF Tracy were as you suggest, talking about times he sat with TM on the back porch and had no inclination that he had been on the porch the night of the shooting, then it would have been weeks or months ago (whenever the last time they had been to Sanford) that he was talking about TM being on the porch (presumably with him since he used "we").  According to Tracy's statements, he dropped TM off on this trip and didn't see him all the way to BG's.  The boys came down and spent some time with them in Orlando and they were at the football game together the night before.  Tracy did not see TM the day he was killed.  Doesn't seem like there is any possibility that the reference to them sitting on the back porch took place on this trip.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: RickyJim on March 03, 2013, 11:12:45 AM
Why hasn't anybody asked Brandy or Tracy about these statements during the past year?  Is it because reporters and lawyers don't know about them or Brandy and Tracy were so upset and confused at the time they said them that the answer to why they said them is obvious, viz. they were just blurting out an image of Trayvon they had in their minds?

Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: whonoze on March 03, 2013, 12:13:38 PM
Why hasn't anybody asked Brandy or Tracy about these statements during the past year?  Is it because reporters and lawyers don't know about them or Brandy and Tracy were so upset and confused at the time they said them that the answer to why they said them is obvious, viz. they were just blurting out an image of Trayvon they had in their minds?

It might be a bit of the latter. Fox 35 intercepted Brandy and Tracy on the morning of the 27th as they walked up the dog-walk to take their first look at the spot where Trayvon was killed. But, for reporters anyway, it's probably more that they just don't ask the parents of dead kids why they said X or Y. Not that this is out of respect so much as just outside the "victim's parent grieves" or "victim's parent pleads for justice and reform" news frames, which follow a 'human interest' formula. You would see the same thing with the Sandy Hook parents: if any of them said something that could be considered odd, no one would ask them "Why did you say that?"

Lawyers, on the other hand, may well have asked Green and Martin to clarify their comments, and we just don't know about it. Perhaps because the lawyers concluded there was no there there once they got their answers and didn't feel the matter was worth discussion.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: leftwig on March 03, 2013, 01:33:51 PM
Why hasn't anybody asked Brandy or Tracy about these statements during the past year?  Is it because reporters and lawyers don't know about them or Brandy and Tracy were so upset and confused at the time they said them that the answer to why they said them is obvious, viz. they were just blurting out an image of Trayvon they had in their minds?

I think your answer would be found in looking at when Tracy first contacted a lawyer and what he said to police when they were asking for his help in obtaining access to TM's cell phone.  After that moment, I think everything else was controlled by Crump and Julison.  BG and Chad did do one interview, but I don;t recall the date and I don't think we've seen or heard from them since.  Once the "living with his fiance" narrative was debunked, and Chad relayed his need for Skittles, there wasn't much use for them.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: Evil Chinchilla on March 03, 2013, 01:38:59 PM
Quote
From: leftwig on March 01, 2013, 12:12:26 PM:

Tracy and Brandy made those comments the day after the shooting.

Sorry, that's not correct.

The dates are in the first post.

Brandy's comment was the day after the shooting, 2/27. Both of Tracy's were on 3/22, over three weeks later. I know of no others.

The problem is, when the 2/27 Fox35 interview with BG-- in which Tracy also made comments-- was cited in print, the comments made by BG got misattributed:
Quote
On Monday afternoon, a FOX 35 News crew met with Tracy Martin who said the victim in the shooting is her 17-year-old son, Trayvon, who was visiting from Miami.

"He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

Some sources compounded the error by "correcting" Tracy's gender, rather than by correctly reattributing the quotes to BG. This created the impression that both had maintained on 2/27 that he was "on the porch and this man killed him."

Even worse, Fox35 continued to print the error on its website, even through the "update" dated 4/10, quoted above:

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/17374352/trayvon-martin-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/17374352/trayvon-martin-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation)

Jeralyn called Fox35 on this back on 4/22:
Quote
[Note: While the Fox news Orlando article dated Feb. 27 that accompanies the video misidentifies Brandy Green, Tracy Martin's fiance, saying she is "Tracy Martin, Trayon's mother", when Tracy Martin is Trayvon's father and Trayvon's mother is Sybrina Fuller, it's not an error that impacts the story, the video doesn't confuse them, and the error in the article may be understandable since it was written before the Martins became household names. Still, Fox Orlando should fix that.]

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/4/22/54738/3187

As for why BG and Tracy ever said the comments about TM "on the porch" and what they meant by it, only they can answer.  But they did both say it at one point or another-- with Tracy continuing with a version of it on 3/22-- and their comments were reported in the media.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: AghastInFL on March 03, 2013, 02:25:12 PM
It might be a bit of the latter. Fox 35 intercepted Brandy and Tracy on the morning of the 27th as they walked up the dog-walk to take their first look at the spot where Trayvon was killed. But, for reporters anyway, it's probably more that they just don't ask the parents of dead kids why they said X or Y. Not that this is out of respect so much as just outside the "victim's parent grieves" or "victim's parent pleads for justice and reform" news frames, which follow a 'human interest' formula. You would see the same thing with the Sandy Hook parents: if any of them said something that could be considered odd, no one would ask them "Why did you say that?"

Lawyers, on the other hand, may well have asked Green and Martin to clarify their comments, and we just don't know about it. Perhaps because the lawyers concluded there was no there there once they got their answers and didn't feel the matter was worth discussion.

Actually I believe it was more that Tracy and Brandy decided to intercept the reporter.  Otherwise they could have sat silently in her home until they finished filming.

Not enough facts were known at that time to formulate any question of the narrative or statement from the father and Brandy.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 03, 2013, 04:19:04 PM
BG and Chad did do one interview, but I don't recall the date and I don't think we've seen or heard from them since. 

Geraldo, 4/2/12 (http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/geraldo/index.html#/v/1543560623001/what-really-happened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/?playlist_id=86916)

The same day as Dee Dee's SAO interview. Coincidence?

I also don't know that Brandy or Chad has given a press interview of any kind since.

I think few reporters want to ask probing questions of Trayvon's relations , or even his friends, because of the grief angle and also the racial angle. If there are exceptions, I'm sure it hasn't been hard for Tracy to avoid them.

Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 03, 2013, 04:33:08 PM
The problem is, when the 2/27 Fox35 interview with BG-- in which Tracy also made comments-- was cited in print, the comments made by BG got misattributed

Good catch.

I remember that well. In the early days I warned people to ignore the print every time I cited the video. It didn't occur to me that it could still be source of confusion.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: unitron on March 03, 2013, 06:04:19 PM
Actually I believe it was more that Tracy and Brandy decided to intercept the reporter.  ...

As I recall they were looking at the area and the reporter walked up to them and only then found out who they were.

Unless the reporter staged that.

In which case the word "reporter" is not the one which should be used.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 03, 2013, 06:39:23 PM
As I recall they were looking at the area and the reporter walked up to them and only then found out who they were.

Here's the link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w47eL_jTieI&feature=related) again.

At 0:12, the reporter, identified as Keith Landry, is on the dogwalk, a few units south of the shooting site. Tracy and Brandy are visible behind him in the distance, walking toward him on the sidewalk.

The reporter walks toward the shooting site, points it out, and points out the back of W-6's unit. Then there is a cut to the famous behind-the-front-door interview of W-6, intercut with clips of police working the crime scene the previous night.

At 0:56 the video cuts back to the backyard. Now the camera points north, and Tracy and Brandy are walking from that direction, taking a few steps before stopping near the shooting site. The reporter isn't in frame, but I think it's the same voice.

Quote
Reporter: Was that a friend of yours?
 
Tracy: That was my son.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 03, 2013, 06:45:59 PM
I can think of a couple of reasons they may have thought TM was on the porch before GZ killed him.  One is that TM may have left something there.

At most that would show that he was there, or close enough to toss something on the patio. It wouldn't show that he was sitting on the patio.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: leftwig on March 03, 2013, 08:33:24 PM
Its a fair point, though it would probably depend what was there.  I'm of the impression they've got no idea (like Dee Dee) whether he could have been sitting, standing, lying down or never even there.  I'm certain if TM did drop something off on the porch that night, we are never going to see it or hear about it before a trial.  I'm more interested in Chad's story. 
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on March 04, 2013, 03:00:24 PM
He definately was not on the porch. GZ said he came out from one of the yards.
RZ said "from behind the bushes". IF TM had made it it back to BG's then returned to the T
GZ would have noticed him walking toward him.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 04, 2013, 03:47:37 PM
IF TM had made it it back to BG's then returned to the T GZ would have noticed him walking toward him.

Patio to T is about a one minute walk. Martin had time to sit on the porch, or go in the house and putter around, and then return to somewhere near the T, while Zimmerman loitered on RVC.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: leftwig on March 04, 2013, 04:12:43 PM
He definately was not on the porch. GZ said he came out from one of the yards.
RZ said "from behind the bushes". IF TM had made it it back to BG's then returned to the T
GZ would have noticed him walking toward him.

Depends where GZ spent most of the time after losing sight of TM.  I believe he stated that he spent much of that time talking to Sean while on RVC which means he wouldn't have seen TM coming back.  It seems there was roughly 3 and 1/2  minutes of elapsed time between the time GZ says he ran and he appears yelling out to him.  If TM ran at a reasonable pace (somewhere between a jog and a sprint) it would have taken about 20-25 seconds to get to the back porch.  He could have walked back to the 'T' in 60-90 seconds, depending how cautiously he was moving, so lets say 2 minutes total leaving another minute and a half.  Presuming these two travel events are correct, what did he do with the other minute and a half? 

As I said earlier, I don't think TM ever actually sat on the porch for that minute and a half, but that there may have been some evidence that he had been there or maybe even poked his head inside to let Chad know he was back, but was stepping back outside.   I think BG had some reason to believe TM had gotten to the porch (something left there or Chad told them TM had reached home) and her comment was spontaneous.  I just have a hard time accepting that Chad was so worried about when his Skittles were returning that he called TM an hour or so after he left home to see where he was, but upon being told he was on his way back from the store, didn't have enough concern to call him or anyone when TM hadn't returned 3 and 1/2 hours later.
Title: Re: "He Was Sitting Out On The Porch."
Post by: TalkLeft on March 05, 2013, 08:52:17 PM
You are all way off topic of Brandy Green, Tracy Martin and the porch comments. Please stop, and discuss the lighting in the backyards and other witnesses in their threads. I locked the thread to clean it and have reopened it, but please stay on topic.