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State v. George Zimmerman (Pre-Trial) => Evidence Discussion => Topic started by: MJW on August 22, 2012, 02:35:03 PM

Title: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on August 22, 2012, 02:35:03 PM
Trayvon Martin's cellphone records are important in establishing the timeline. Because Judge Lester has ruled that Florida law prohibits the release of telecommunications records, the only records we have are those (http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf) released by Crump. The records are in a rather confusing order, so I reordered them to make them easier to understand. I also tried to determine which calls were from DeeDee. I'm particularly uncertain about the calls marked with question marks, but put them with the DeeDee calls.  Both the beginning and ending times are rounded in some unknown (to me) fashion by T-Mobile. My current best guess is:

The calls and texts are:
2:13 text from Hollywood, FL
2:15 text to North Dade (DeeDee?)
2:18 text from North Dade (DeeDee?)
2:20-2:23 (3 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
2:38-4:21 (103 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)
2:45-2:47 (2 min. - to Martin from T-Mobile)
3:02-3:04 (2 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
3:04-3:07 (3 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
4:30 text from Miami, FL
4:28-5:09 (41 min. - from Martin to DeeDee)
5:09-6:30 (81 min. - from Martin to DeeDee)
6:30-6:43 (13 min. - from Martin to DeeDee)
6:41-6:44 (4 min. - to Martin from T-Mobile)
6:45-6:50 (5 min. - from Martin to DeeDee)
6:46-6:48 (2 min - from Martin to North Dade non-T-Mobile)
6:49-6:53 (4 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)
6:53-6:54 (1 min. - from Martin to North Dade T-Mobile (DeeDee?))
6:54-6:55 (1 min. - from Martin to North Dade T-Mobile (DeeDee?))
6:54-7:12 (18 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)
7:04-7:05 (1 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
7:08 text from North Dade (DeeDee?)
7:12-7:16 (4 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)

------

The possible DeeDee calls and texts are:
2:15 text to DeeDee (?)
2:18 text from DeeDee (?)
2:38-4:21 (103 min. - to Martin)
4:28-5:09 (41 min. - from Martin)
5:09-6:30 (81 min. - from Martin)
6:30-6:43 (13 min. - from Martin)
6:45-6:50 (5 min. - from Martin)
6:49-6:53 (4 min. - to Martin)
6:53-6:54 (1 min. - from Martin to North Dade T-Mobile) (?)
6:54-6:55 (1 min. - from Martin to North Dade T-Mobile) (?)
6:54-7:12 (18 min. - to Martin)
7:08 text from DeeDee (?)
7:12-7:16 (4 min. - to Martin)

The non-DeeDee calls and texts are:
2:13 text from Hollywood, FL
2:20-2:23 (3 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
2:45-2:47 (2 min. - to Martin from T-Mobile)
3:02-3:04 (2 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
3:04-3:07 (3 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
4:30 text from Miami, FL
6:41-6:44 (4 min. - to Martin from T-Mobile)
6:46-6:48 (2 min. - from Martin to North Dade non-T-Mobile)
7:04-7:05 (1 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)

------

Chad said he called Martin, and Martin told him he was on his way home. This was probably either the 4 minute T-Mobile call at 6:41 or the 1 minute non-T-Mobile call at 7:04.

------

The attribution of the text messages to DeeDee is based on this exchange from the interview by de la Rionda:

BDLR:  Again, I’m sorry to have to ask you this. Um...did...when this was going on...I’m talking about that day, February 26, did Trayvon send you any text messages?
DeeDee:  I...one...like...  [Texts at 2:15 and 2:18?]
BDLR:  You know, like, I’m going to the store, or did he ever text you and say, like, this guy’s following me, or did he just tell you that?
DeeDee: He just tell me.
BDLR:  OK, then he never texted you that...this all that you’ve told me.
DeeDee: Mmm-mmm [No].
BDLR:  Did you ever text him...during this time?
DeeDee: Like when the phone just hung up?
BDLR:  Yeah.
DeeDee: Yeah. [Text at 7:08.]

DeeDee's answer to the question of whether Martin send her a text message isn't quite clear. She could mean one text was sent in all, not that Martin sent her one.

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: annoyedbeyond on August 22, 2012, 02:46:02 PM
FWIW I seem to remember some discussion of TM being on a family plan? So maybe not all of the calls were his?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on August 22, 2012, 02:51:02 PM
FWIW I seem to remember some discussion of TM being on a family plan? So maybe not all of the calls were his?

I read a comment from someone who used to work for T-Mobile saying the billing records are listed separately by phone number. Also, the way the call times fit together suggests to me they are one person's calls.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 22, 2012, 02:52:56 PM
Thank you for doing the thread and for all of the work you put into it.  It is much appreciated.

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on August 22, 2012, 02:56:41 PM
* * *

In my opening comment, all phone calls not listed as non-T-Mobile are T-Mobile calls. I intended to specify in each call whether they were T-Mobile are not, but left some out.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on August 22, 2012, 03:07:09 PM
Thank you for doing the thread and for all of the work you put into it.  It is much appreciated.

Thank you. I'm always happy to get the chance to recycle some work I've already done.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 23, 2012, 07:49:01 AM

Thanks to MJW for doing the work, and to DebFrmHell for suggesting the new thread.

I think I've figured out what Dee Dee told de la Rionda about texting. If I'm right, the 7:08 text wasn't from Dee Dee.

When Dee Dee talked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=relmfu) about the phone disconnecting, she usually said it 'hung up' (5:49-58, 6:49-57; I wonder if she's ever literally hung up a phone.)

When she talked about the last time the phone disconnected, she said it 'just hung up' or 'just shut off' (11:43-53, 12:59-13:11).

After the phone disconnected for the last time, Dee Dee said she tried to contact Martin by calling and texting.

12:01-10
Quote
De la Rionda: OK. When the phone shut off, did you try calling back?

Dee Dee: I call him back like, three or two times.

De la Rionda: OK, did you ever get any response?

Dee Dee: No, and text him [unintelligible].

The one other time that Dee Dee told de la Rionda that she texted Martin, I think she was repeating that she texted Martin when she was trying to contact him after the last disconnect.

18:26-34
Quote
De la Rionda: Did you ever text him, during this time?

Dee Dee: Like when the phone just hung up?

De la Rionda: Yeah.

Dee Dee: Yeah.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on August 23, 2012, 01:30:36 PM
I think I've figured out what Dee Dee told de la Rionda about texting. If I'm right, the 7:08 text wasn't from Dee Dee.

I think you might be right. I'm not sure how T-Mobile billing works, but it seems likely that unread text messages wouldn't show up on the billing statement. Of all the undisclosed evidence, Martin's complete cellphone records are at the top of my list of things I'd like to see.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 23, 2012, 01:36:12 PM
I think you might be right. I'm not sure how T-Mobile billing works, but it seems likely that unread text messages wouldn't show up on the billing statement. Of all the undisclosed evidence, Martin's complete cellphone records are at the top of my list of things I'd like to see.

I freely admit to being an idiot about these new-fangled cell phones but it would seem to me that once that phone was regarded and turned on the text would then come through.  It would show at a later date?  Maybe?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on August 23, 2012, 02:05:04 PM
I freely admit to being an idiot about these new-fangled cell phones but it would seem to me that once that phone was regarded and turned on the text would then come through.  It would show at a later date?  Maybe?

On my cellphone, and I assume it's true of others, I have to select text messages to read them. I get junk text messages, and I'm not charged for them as long as I don't read them.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on August 23, 2012, 04:31:12 PM
...Of all the undisclosed evidence, Martin's complete cellphone records are at the top of my list of things I'd like to see.

Me too, especially if Zimmerman's records are printed on the back.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on November 04, 2012, 10:54:19 PM
In Tracy Martin's interview with the SAO, he talks about TM not answering his phone and that all of the calls went to voicemail.  If he left a message, wouldn't that show up on TM's part of the bill.  The 1 minute calls on 3/2/12 show up.  I believe those were made by LE (Singleton?).

 
Maybe it is me but I don't see how Tracy doesn't leave at least one message asking Trayvon to call him when he is available.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 05, 2012, 12:02:34 AM
In Tracy Martin's interview with the SAO, he talks about TM not answering his phone and that all of the calls went to voicemail.  If he left a message, wouldn't that show up on TM's part of the bill.  The 1 minute calls on 3/2/12 show up.  I believe those were made by LE (Singleton?).

 
Maybe it is me but I don't see how Tracy doesn't leave at least one message asking Trayvon to call him when he is available.

Apparently Tracy did not expect Trayvon to get a message and call back. For some unexplained reason, Tracy turned his phone off before going to bed. That is very odd behavior for a parent claiming to be worried about his son.

Quote
Tracy Martin had been looking for his son Trayvon since the night before. He went to bed figuring the teen must have gone to the movies and turned off his phone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

Why would Tracy assume he went to a movie? Did Trayvon ask permission to go to a movie like when he supposedly had to beg permission to go the store?

Quote
He was very responsible. If he said he was going to the movies or to the store, I know he was doing that," Martin said.

 http://www.bnd.com/2012/05/24/2187688/tracy-martin-to-tell-youths-stop.html#storylink=cpy
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 05, 2012, 12:54:53 AM
In this article, Tracy said "Trayvon had made plans to see a movie with a family member." I wonder why he did not mention this to the police during his missing person call? How was Tracy expecting Trayvon to get into Green's unit without a key? Wouldn't he stay up or at least leave his phone on for that reason alone?

Quote
The elder Martin said he called his son's cellphone, but it went to voice mail. He remembered Trayvon had made plans to see a movie with a family member and thought, "Maybe they are in the movie, and they turned their phones off."

He went to sleep that night, he said, trusting his son would return. The next morning, as he grew more worried, Martin called law enforcement and asked to file a missing-persons report.

Still, "I just knew that Trayvon's going to be coming home with an excuse," he said. "It was unusual for my kid not to come home, not to be answering his phone and not to call me."



http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-05/news/os-george-zimmerman-trayvon-father-20120505_1_martin-family-shooting-death-miami-gardens
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on November 05, 2012, 01:11:04 AM
In this article, Tracy said "Trayvon had made plans to see a movie with a family member." I wonder why he did not mention this to the police during his missing person call? How was Tracy expecting Trayvon to get into Green's unit without a key? Wouldn't he stay up or at least leave his phone on for that reason alone?

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-05/news/os-george-zimmerman-trayvon-father-20120505_1_martin-family-shooting-death-miami-gardens

Apparently Tracy did not expect Trayvon to get a message and call back. For some unexplained reason, Tracy turned his phone off before going to bed. That is very odd behavior for a parent claiming to be worried about his son.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

Why would Tracy assume he went to a movie? Did Trayvon ask permission to go to a movie like when he supposedly had to beg permission to go the store?

 http://www.bnd.com/2012/05/24/2187688/tracy-martin-to-tell-youths-stop.html#storylink=cpy

But the phone would show missed calls once it was powered up?  Maybe not though if it was password protected.  I am not sure. 

I am sorry.  I am not a parent.  TO ME, it seems odd that a teen is allowed to have a password protected phone.  There are so many parental safeguards in play for everything from TV's to computers to phones. to insure that kids are not getting in over  their heads in this big, wide digital world.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on November 05, 2012, 01:20:37 AM
In Tracy Martin's interview with the SAO, he talks about TM not answering his phone and that all of the calls went to voicemail.  If he left a message, wouldn't that show up on TM's part of the bill.  The 1 minute calls on 3/2/12 show up.  I believe those were made by LE (Singleton?).

I'm not sure voice messages will show up on the bill until they're listened to. Redbrow makes a very good point that if Tracy thought Trayvon had turned off his phone while in the theater, it's odd that Tracy would turn off his phone. The whole story doesn't seem to make much sense, but any misrepresentations could, I suppose, be due to Tracy trying to cover up his bad parenting rather than something more nefarious.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on November 05, 2012, 05:38:14 AM
I'm not sure voice messages will show up on the bill until they're listened to. Redbrow makes a very good point that if Tracy thought Trayvon had turned off his phone while in the theater, it's odd that Tracy would turn off his phone. The whole story doesn't seem to make much sense, but any misrepresentations could, I suppose, be due to Tracy trying to cover up his bad parenting rather than something more nefarious.

Would anyone consider calling their own cell phone from a land line and leaving a message?  Then check your bill to see if it shows up before listening to the message?  It might take a day or two ten to show up on the bill.  And listen to the message and recheck the bill online?

LOL!  I don't have any kind of a fancy phone.  It is a burner so there are no records or I would check this myself....
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on November 05, 2012, 05:55:51 PM
"Tracy Martin had been looking for his son Trayvon since the night before. He went to bed figuring the teen must have gone to the movies and turned off his phone."

I think this means Tracy assumed that Trayvon turned off Trayvon's phone while Trayvon was in the movie theater, out of consideration to the other moviegoers, not that Tracy turned off Tracy's phone.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 08:18:00 PM
I think this means Tracy assumed that Trayvon turned off Trayvon's phone while Trayvon was in the movie theater

Of course that's what it means. The other interpretation is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 08:20:18 PM
Did Trayvon ask permission to go to a movie like when he supposedly had to beg permission to go the store?

The 'beg permission' story is a stray bit of gossip. It has no credible source.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 08:31:33 PM
The 1 minute calls on 3/2/12 show up.  I believe those were made by LE (Singleton?).

Why do you think so?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 08:33:34 PM
TO ME, it seems odd that a teen is allowed to have a password protected phone. 

The account holder can override the password.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: FromBelow on November 05, 2012, 08:47:51 PM
The account holder can override the password.

I'm hardly an expert on cell phones, but doesn't the phone itself have a password independent of the account?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 08:52:04 PM
In this article, Tracy said "Trayvon had made plans to see a movie with a family member." I wonder why he did not mention this to the police during his missing person call?

Probably because he had called the cousin (p. 40 of the July 12 release (http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf)). The interview summary says the cousin said Trayvon wasn't with him. He probably also mentioned that he and Trayvon didn't see a movie together the night before.

The movie plan story does seem inconsistent with the regular story, that Trayvon planned to watch the NBA All Star Game with his not-brother.

The cited article clears up whose cell phone(s) Tracy thought were off.

Quote
He remembered Trayvon had made plans to see a movie with a family member and thought, "Maybe they are in the movie, and they turned their phones off."


 
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 09:14:16 PM
I'm hardly an expert on cell phones, but doesn't the phone itself have a password independent of the account?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what this means.

I'm going by the SPD reports. (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/cellchron.jpg)

Quote
On March 2, 2012 Inv. Singleton contacted a representative from T-Mobile who told her if the Sanford Police Department obtained the cell phone number and the pin number to the account they would be able to bypass the swipe code on the cell phone.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on November 05, 2012, 09:31:46 PM
I'm sorry, I don't understand what this means.

I'm going by the SPD reports. (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/cellchron.jpg)

In the evidence log, there is a lot of activity on DMS-7.  I thought Singleton was one of the people who might have dialed 911 to establish the phone number.  That is one of the 1 minute calls.  The second one, I was thinking Singleton calling the phone back.

I have been breezing thru the doc-dumps and I know it is in there.  Someone from FDLE ha possession of it too.

If I can find it I will link it later.  It is out there.  I just can't find it.  LOL!
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 09:34:17 PM
In this article, Tracy said "Trayvon had made plans to see a movie with a family member."

Maybe Tracy meant that he remembered that Trayvon and his cousin went to see a movie on Saturday night and it didn't work out, and that's why he thought Trayvon might have blown off the NBA game to see a movie with his cousin on Sunday.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on November 05, 2012, 10:00:48 PM
Why do you think so?

Why does DebFrmHell think the calls on 3/2/12 were made by law enforcement? Well, they had the phone and the calls were made just after a 911 call from Martin's phone. Singleton's certainly a possibility for the 911 caller given the statement you just quoted:

Quote
On March 2, 2012 Inv. Singleton contacted It representative from T -Mobile who told her if the Sanford Police Deportment obtained the cell phone number and the pin number to the account they would be able to bybass the swipe code on the cell phone.

On the very day Singleton called T-Mobile, someone called 911 from the phone, which is clearly an attempt to obtain the phone's number. Then a few moments later, someone calls the phone, which is clearly an attempt to confirm the just-obtained number.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: FromBelow on November 05, 2012, 10:19:32 PM
I'm sorry, I don't understand what this means.

I'm going by the SPD reports. (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/cellchron.jpg)

I was thinking there was a code to access the information in the phone's memory and another for accessing the information the carrier keeps that's not stored on the phone and/or carrier specific information in memory. I wouldn't have thought the carrier would be able to access all information (override phone's code) on the phone just by having the account's pin number. I assumed that the phone would have a separate area in memory for other data that's independent of the carrier. I really have no idea how it works.

Anyway, was LE eventually able to access what information was in the phone's memory and what information would that be? I suppose I should read the entire thread and do a bit of searching.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on November 05, 2012, 10:22:56 PM
Of course that's what it means. The other interpretation is ridiculous.

Yet at least one person here seems to have come up with an alternative interpretation.

"For some unexplained reason, Tracy turned his phone off before going to bed."
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: FromBelow on November 05, 2012, 10:30:04 PM
Yet at least one person here seems to have come up with an alternative interpretation.

"For some unexplained reason, Tracy turned his phone off before going to bed."

If you frequent pro-Trayvon sites you should be familiar with alternative interpretations. Very creative alternative interpretations. I think, relatively speaking, we do pretty well.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on November 05, 2012, 10:34:09 PM
The 'beg permission' story is a stray bit of gossip. It has no credible source.

The story that Martin begged to go to the store is not just a "stray bit of gossip." It has a named (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20581404,00.html) source: family friend and former football coach Jerome Horton, who, according to CNN, "has been in close contact with Martin's father." You may not believe what he says is true, but it's more than mere gossip.

Quote
His fateful walk to the convenience store for a bag of Skittles and an iced tea on the evening of February 26 happened only because the teenager pleaded to leave the apartment, said Horton.

"The only reason he got a chance to go to the store is because he begged his dad to go," he said.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on November 05, 2012, 10:39:36 PM
Yet at least one person here seems to have come up with an alternative interpretation.

"For some unexplained reason, Tracy turned his phone off before going to bed."

How is that an alternative interpretation? Who would think "his" refers to anyone other than Tracy?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DiwataMan on November 05, 2012, 10:39:51 PM
Why does DebFrmHell think the calls on 3/2/12 were made by law enforcement? Well, they had the phone and the calls were made just after a 911 call from Martin's phone. Singleton's certainly a possibility for the 911 caller given the statement you just quoted:

On the very day Singleton called T-Mobile, someone called 911 from the phone, which is clearly an attempt to obtain the phone's number. Then a few moments later, someone calls the phone, which is clearly an attempt to confirm the just-obtained number.

I agree with this and it's the strongest evidence we have that says that the phone found at the scene was Trayvons.

What's odd about the phone records though is that the 911 call shows up as a T-Mobile to T-Mobile. Also there are two call backs from the Sanford PD that follow it; one within the same minute and another two minutes later. Why would they call back twice like that? Regardless, I still would like to see some actual evidence that the phone found at the scene was Trayvons. They were kind enough to provide us with the serial number. Can a phone dealer run that serial number for us and see if it comes back as belonging to Tracy Martin? Anyone here know a phone dealer?

Here you can see the number on the phone records of the two incoming calls that were made after the 911 call;

http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/trayvons-phone-records/

(407) 688-5070
http://www.whitepages.com/business/sanford-police-dept-sanford-fl
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 05, 2012, 10:58:27 PM
The 'beg permission' story is a stray bit of gossip. It has no credible source.

How were you able to evaluate the credibility of this statement with such authority?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 11:06:11 PM
The story that Martin begged to go to the store is not just a "stray bit of gossip." It has a named (http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20581404,00.html) source: family friend and former football coach Jerome Horton

It's gossip because because Horton doesn't say if he witnessed the begging, or if not who he heard it from.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 05, 2012, 11:09:57 PM
Of course that's what it means. The other interpretation is ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? It is not clear.

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 05, 2012, 11:12:58 PM
It's gossip because because Horton doesn't say if he witnessed the begging, or if not who he heard it from.

Your interpretation of gossip is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 11:18:39 PM
Yet at least one person here seems to have come up with an alternative interpretation.

Yes, a person came up with a ridiculous interpretation. People do that from time to time.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 11:22:20 PM
Why is it ridiculous?

There is an obvious reason why Trayvon and his cousin would turn off their phones at the theater. There is no such reason, and no reason given, for Tracy to turn off his phone.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 05, 2012, 11:26:41 PM
The obvious reason is right there in context. He went to bed. I frequently turn off my cell phone before going to bed so I won't be disturbed.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 11:35:31 PM
Why would Tracy assume he went to a movie?

Because Trayvon wasn't answering his phone, and a movie theater is a place where he would be likely to turn the phone off.

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: FromBelow on November 05, 2012, 11:38:43 PM
The obvious reason is right there in context. He went to bed. I frequently turn off my cell phone before going to bed so I won't be disturbed.

That's one of the first things that occurred to me. I don't want anyone calling a wrong number (or even the right one) and waking me up when I'm sleeping. I wonder what percentage of people actually do turn off their phones when they go to sleep. I imagine quite a few. To me it sounded like Tracy just did his normal going to sleep routine by turning off the phone.

Anyways, wouldn't such a responsible child call his father or send him a message to let him know he went to the movies? If I had a child that small I don't think I'd be able to sleep without knowing where they were.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 05, 2012, 11:42:15 PM
The obvious reason is right there in context. He went to bed. I frequently turn off my cell phone before going to bed so I won't be disturbed.

Apparently Tracy did not expect Trayvon to get a message and call back. For some unexplained reason, Tracy turned his phone off before going to bed. That is very odd behavior for a parent claiming to be worried about his son.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 05, 2012, 11:48:54 PM
Because Trayvon wasn't answering his phone, and a movie theater is a place where he would be likely to turn the phone off.

We know why Trayvon did not answer but why do think the "responsible nephew" failed to answer right away and/or failed to call back Tracy later that night, since you believe Tracy left his phone on?

Maybe the cousin did call Tracy back at around 2:30 a.m. and told him Trayvon was shot. That might explain this statement by Tracy. The memory was so firmly etched in his mind, he'll never get over it.

Quote
"It's something I will never get over. I had talked to my son between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m., then 12-13 hours later I found out that he was dead. He was three weeks from turning 17. I know my son was a good kid who had a future. He was very responsible. If he said he was going to the movies or to the store, I know he was doing that," Martin said.

Read more here: http://www.bnd.com/2012/05/24/2187688/tracy-martin-to-tell-youths-stop.html#storylink=cpy
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: TalkLeft on November 05, 2012, 11:57:46 PM
There is an obvious reason why Trayvon and his cousin would turn off their phones at the theater. There is no such reason, and no reason given, for Tracy to turn off his phone.

They never went to the movies according to Brandy's report. See p 32 of the 284 page discovery. She said X told her they never went (I think the X is Chad.)
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 06, 2012, 12:03:28 AM
There is an obvious reason why Trayvon and his cousin would turn off their phones at the theater. There is no such reason, and no reason given, for Tracy to turn off his phone.
They never went to the movies according to Brandy's report.

That has no relevance to the point under discussion.

We know Trayvon wasn't at the movies when his father got home. He was dead.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 06, 2012, 12:05:32 AM
We know why Trayvon did not answer but why do think the "responsible nephew" failed to answer right away and/or failed to call back Tracy later that night, since you believe Tracy left his phone on?

Maybe the cousin did call Tracy back at around 2:30 a.m. and told him Trayvon was shot. That might explain this statement by Tracy. The memory was so firmly etched in his mind, he'll never get over it.

Read more here: http://www.bnd.com/2012/05/24/2187688/tracy-martin-to-tell-youths-stop.html#storylink=cpy

Didn't the cousin state he spoke with Dee Dee the night before? Isn't it possible DeeDee had the cousin's number and called him saying she is worried about Trayvon because she just heard him get into a fight near his home and no longer answered the phone? Isn't it possible that the cousin saw the news report about the shooting at Twin Lakes or heard it through the grapevine, if he was out and about or even through social networks? I'm sure it was big local news that night. "did you hear some dude got shot over at TL?" He could have put two and two together and figured out it was Trayvon and called Tracy.

I think Tracy's phone record will shed a lot of light on what really happened.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 06, 2012, 12:23:56 AM
Who would think "his" refers to anyone other than Tracy?

That's an odd question.

Quote
He went to bed figuring the teen must have gone to the movies and turned off his phone.

On punctuation alone, 'turned off his phone' is more likely predicated of 'the teen' than of 'He'. In the latter case we would expect a comma after 'movies'.

Now observe that 'and turned off his phone' provides an explanation for why Tracy was 'figuring the teen must have gone to the movies'.

Then there's the other article Redbrow quoted, stating clearly that Tracy thought that both Trayvon and his cousin had turned off their phones because they were in a theater.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 06, 2012, 12:30:14 AM
That's an odd question.

On punctuation alone, 'turned off his phone' is more likely predicated of 'the teen' than of 'He'. In the latter case we would expect a comma after 'movies'.

Now observe that 'and turned off his phone' provides an explanation for why Tracy was 'figuring the teen must have gone to the movies'.

Then there's the other article Redbrow quoted, stating clearly that Tracy thought that both Trayvon and his cousin had turned off their phones because they were in a theater.

You mean this sentence that includes the comma after 'movies' to clarify the action was performed by the movie goers?

"Maybe they are in the movie, and they turned their phones off."
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 06, 2012, 12:40:44 AM
Didn't the cousin state he spoke with Dee Dee the night before?

The SAO summary says he spoke to an 'unknown girl'. If he figured out who she was, the summary doesn't say. (p. 9 of the July 12 release (http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf))
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 06, 2012, 12:51:34 AM
They never went to the movies according to Brandy's report. See p 32 of the 284 page discovery. She said X told her they never went (I think the X is Chad.)

It seems that Brandy thought all three of the boys were planning to go to the movies.

The cousin's SAO summary (p. 9) implies that he and Trayvon went to a theater without Chad, but then decided not to watch a movie.

Maybe Chad was vague about it with his mother, because he didn't want to sound like he was complaining about being ditched.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 06, 2012, 01:27:10 AM
I was thinking there was a code to access the information in the phone's memory and another for accessing the information the carrier keeps that's not stored on the phone and/or carrier specific information in memory.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that there were two codes.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: jupchurch on November 24, 2012, 07:14:11 AM
Article for today's Orlando Sentinel

Authorities still don't know what's on Trayvon Martin's cellphone

Defense attorneys say they need to know more.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-cell-phone-20121125,0,542835.story (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-cell-phone-20121125,0,542835.story)
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on November 24, 2012, 08:10:52 AM
Article for today's Orlando Sentinel

Authorities still don't know what's on Trayvon Martin's cellphone

Defense attorneys say they need to know more.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-cell-phone-20121125,0,542835.story (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-cell-phone-20121125,0,542835.story)

I thought there was a search warrant issued for that phone information.  o_O  Perhaps they could issue a warrant for Tracy Martin's computer for only TMoble related items.

For someone screaming to the heavens about the killing of his son, it seems odd that he refused to help the authorities...Goes against the purpose, IMO.  Crump said they would give the Prosecution whatever they needed (paraphrased) so why didn't they deem this as important considering it has all that information on call logs/text for Dee Dee?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 24, 2012, 08:22:31 AM
Article for today's Orlando Sentinel

Authorities still don't know what's on Trayvon Martin's cellphone

Defense attorneys say they need to know more.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-cell-phone-20121125,0,542835.story (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-cell-phone-20121125,0,542835.story)

Quote
At a March 8 news conference in Orlando, Tracy Martin told reporters he would not help police download information from the phone.

First I've heard of this.

For something announced at a news conference it's been kept awfully quiet.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 24, 2012, 08:24:33 AM
I thought there was a search warrant issued for that phone information.

Maybe issued but never served?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on November 24, 2012, 01:14:06 PM

Here's a theory:

Neither the prosecution nor the defense want this material retrieved because they have no way of knowing in advance if it might hurt their case, and prefer not to take the risk.  They do say lawyers shouldn't ask questions to which they don't already know the answer.

So nobody wants it out except those of us who want to know what actually happened that night, but have little or nothing to lose regardless of the outcome of the trial.

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on November 24, 2012, 01:56:28 PM
Here's a theory:

Neither the prosecution nor the defense want this material retrieved because they have no way of knowing in advance if it might hurt their case, and prefer not to take the risk.  They do say lawyers shouldn't ask questions to which they don't already know the answer.

So nobody wants it out except those of us who want to know what actually happened that night, but have little or nothing to lose regardless of the outcome of the trial.

IDK.  I do like that theory.

I think it is beneficial to the Defense and that is why it is not being assisted for release.  IDK, can Tracy Martin access texts from his home computer?  Does he have the ability to erase them as read if he does?  Anyone with TMobile that can answer these questions?  He is the one who would have a good idea of what is what with his son as far as who he was calling, texting and emailing through that phone.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on November 24, 2012, 02:40:54 PM
IDK.  I do like that theory.

I think it is beneficial to the Defense and that is why it is not being assisted for release.  IDK, can Tracy Martin access texts from his home computer?  Does he have the ability to erase them as read if he does?  Anyone with TMobile that can answer these questions?  He is the one who would have a good idea of what is what with his son as far as who he was calling, texting and emailing through that phone.

He may ( I really don't know one way or the other) be able to delete something from the cell phone provider's servers, but if the phone is sitting in evidence unpowered (I hope they thought to remove the battery in case it leaks), then he can't do jack to anything actually on the phone.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on November 24, 2012, 04:31:16 PM
Here's a theory:

Neither the prosecution nor the defense want this material retrieved because they have no way of knowing in advance if it might hurt their case, and prefer not to take the risk.  They do say lawyers shouldn't ask questions to which they don't already know the answer.

So nobody wants it out except those of us who want to know what actually happened that night, but have little or nothing to lose regardless of the outcome of the trial.

Here's another theory: the defense wants the information. Evidence for that theory:

Quote
It appears that no one has tried since then to pull more information from it, O'Mara said. He said he would press Circuit Judge Debra S. Nelson at a Dec. 11 hearing to order the state to provide more information about what's on the phone.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on November 24, 2012, 04:54:52 PM
I said it was a theory.


I didn't say anything about how good it was. ;D
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 24, 2012, 09:43:56 PM
Which 'authorities' questioned Crump last month and why? Hopefully we'll learn more when the state's 9th supplemental discovery is released to the public.


Quote
When questioned last month about Tracy Martin's decision to withhold the phone's PIN from authorities, family attorney Benjamin Crump said, "I don't know anything about that. We're going to do anything prosecutors say we should."
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 24, 2012, 10:51:29 PM
Quote
When questioned last month about Tracy Martin's decision to withhold the phone's PIN from authorities, family attorney Benjamin Crump said, "I don't know anything about that. We're going to do anything prosecutors say we should."
Which 'authorities' questioned Crump last month and why? Hopefully we'll learn more when the state's 9th supplemental discovery is released to the public.

I think that means an Orlando Sentinel reporter questioned Crump last month about withholding the PIN from the authorities investigating the case.

The SPD asked Tracy Martin for the PIN on March 5 (p. 17 of the May 17 release (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf)).

Quote
Mr. Martin stated he would contact his lawyer before releasing that information.

Crump:
Quote
I don't know anything about that.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on November 25, 2012, 12:16:52 AM
Which 'authorities' questioned Crump last month and why? Hopefully we'll learn more when the state's 9th supplemental discovery is released to the public.


I think that means an Orlando Sentinel reporter questioned Crump last month about withholding the PIN from the authorities investigating the case.

The SPD asked Tracy Martin for the PIN on March 5 (p. 17 of the May 17 release (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf)).

Crump:

I am not sure that Crump had been hired at that time.  I kind of thought that maybe Tracy Martin was talking about his sis-in-law.  He may really not know what was happening that early. 

IMO, of course, and as weasel-ly worded as I can get.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 25, 2012, 12:28:22 AM
I am not sure that Crump had been hired at that time.  I kind of thought that maybe Tracy Martin was talking about his sis-in-law.  He may really not know what was happening that early. 

IMO, of course, and as weasel-ly worded as I can get.

By March 5th, Crump and Jackson already hired a publicist and possibly the P.I. mentioned by Natalie Jackson.

Quote
Now Crump and Jackson needed a media strategy. On March 5, Jackson brought in Ryan Julison, a publicist who had worked with her on a number of high-profile cases.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 25, 2012, 01:02:13 AM
By March 5th, Crump and Jackson already hired a publicist and possibly the P.I. mentioned by Natalie Jackson.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

From the same article:
Quote
Martin turned to Patricia Jones, his sister-in-law.

An attorney herself, she knew whom to call: Benjamin Crump . . . On Tuesday, February 28, Crump was at the Duval County Courthouse in Jacksonville . . . During a break in the hearing, Crump noticed messages from Tyrone Williams, another attorney he knows, and Jones. They urgently asked for his help. Soon Jones put him in touch with Tracy Martin.

"I told him to believe in the system," Crump said of that first call. "I really believed they were going to arrest Zimmerman. I said, 'He's a neighborhood watch person with a gun. Of course they are going to arrest him just for that.'" "Then 48 hours passed and they still hadn't arrested him," Crump said. "After that we just had to do what we had to do."

Forty-eight hours after the shooting would be the evening of 2/28. Maybe Crump meant 48 hours after he was contacted. That suggests Crump decided to take the case some time on 3/1 at the latest.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 25, 2012, 02:34:01 PM
From the same article:
Forty-eight hours after the shooting would be the evening of 2/28. Maybe Crump meant 48 hours after he was contacted. That suggests Crump decided to take the case some time on 3/1 at the latest.

According to Crump, he first learned of Trayvon through another lawyer while on a break at the courthouse

According to Rand, Crump received a call directly from the Martin's while eating lunch at an airport.

Quote
How did you first hear about Trayvon Martin’s case?

I was sitting with Benjamin Crump at lunch waiting for a plane and we got a call from Trayvon Martin’s family.

What can you discuss about the content of that call?

Can't discuss a lot, except to say that, we didn’t even believe we had the facts right.  We thought that there was probably some mistake with what we were hearing because it was just so egregious, we didn’t feel as though what we were being told could be accurate.

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/interview-trayvon-martin-family-attorney-jasmine-rand#ixzz2DGu2SCRp


And is Crump actually trying to claim "I don't know anything about that" in reference to the phone controversy?

Rand proves Martin's lawyers were well aware of the investigator's request for cooperation in gaining access to the phone. They took a hostile stance and tried to characterize it as inappropriate harassment.

Quote
JASMINE RAND: I mean, I think it just—it shows that the Sanford Police Department—I mean, there was either corruption or just woeful ignorance on their behalf. They were calling the family, after losing their child, harassing the parents over his phone, wanting to get—you know, get to his phone, get in his phone. And they had the phone in their possession the entire time. So, you know, there are a lot of questions that I can’t answer, because they don’t make sense.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/3/20/walking_while_black_florida_police_resist#transcript

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 25, 2012, 10:08:38 PM
Quote
How did you first hear about Trayvon Martin’s case?

I was sitting with Benjamin Crump at lunch waiting for a plane and we got a call from Trayvon Martin’s family.
Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/interview-trayvon-martin-family-attorney-jasmine-rand#ixzz2DGu2SCRp

Maybe Crump hadn't mentioned the third party call to Rand. They were in the middle of trying another case.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on November 26, 2012, 11:49:53 AM
I am CCPING myself because I am too lazy to retype but I would like to see what everyone thinks here.

Quote
Why didn't LE, either SPD, FDLE, or FBI ask, via search warrants, to look at any home computer that Martin had access to? Why does MOM have to go the long route by asking Twitter, MySpace, Google EMail, etc. to get the information he needs? They could limit the scope of what they were looking for so that Tracy's (etal) stuff is protected.

Same with the four phones on his account. The Prosecution apparently did NOT ask for any of this. Personally, I don't think they wanted a balanced investigation. They needed an arrest to placate what they thought might be blossoming riot potential thanks to outside "vocalists of dissent." So they circumvent MOM at every step.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: jupchurch on November 26, 2012, 08:14:22 PM
I think Tracy Martin had the pin number for the t-mobile account, but he didn't have the local password for the phone. He had the pin number, because the account was in his name. He didn't have the phone password, because the main reason Trayvon Martin had a password was to keep his parents from spelunking around on his phone.

I've seen local defense attorneys in Florida advise clients to password protect their phone, but, as far as I know, TM was never arrested in Florida. I'm not familiar with youth culture. Do teenagers routinely password protect their phone?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 26, 2012, 09:21:36 PM
I think Tracy Martin had the pin number for the t-mobile account, but he didn't have the local password for the phone.


Sgt. Joseph Santiago (p. 17 of the May 17 release (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf))
Quote
On March 2, 2012 Inv. Singleton contacted a representative from T-Mobile who told her if the Sanford Police Department obtained the cell phone number and the pin number to the account they would be able to bypass the swipe code on the cell phone.

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: jupchurch on November 26, 2012, 09:58:32 PM
If you think about it, that means that the pin number and password are different. Otherwise, the user could just unlock the phone with the pin and wouldn't need t-mobile. If just means that t-mobile won't unlock the phone without the user giving them the pin. It the police came up with a court order then t-mobile would unlock the phone. Obviously the prosecution didn't want the data on the phone bad enough to get a court order.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 26, 2012, 11:00:56 PM
If just means that t-mobile won't unlock the phone without the user giving them the pin.

It's ambiguous, depending on whether 'they' means T-Mobile or the SPD.

The pin number may be included in the records the prosecution has.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Redbrow on November 26, 2012, 11:49:27 PM
Where is Martin's phone now? Did the FBI ever take a crack at it?

FDLE Agent John Batchelor checked out the phone (dms-7) from SPD Property And Evidence at 09:23 on 3/20/2012 (page 41 of 284) and then passed it on to fingerprint analyst Myburgh.

FDLE fingerprint analyst Myburgh received the sealed phone on 3/20 but she was ordered not to test it. She composed a letter to SPD Chief Lee, informing him she is returning the sealed phone to his agency, dated 3/20/2012. (page 119 of 184)

However, SPD Property and Evidence Chain of Custody shows no further record of dms-7 after after Batchelor checked it out on 3/20/2012.

We know that FDLE Agent Brenton performed an analysis and filed a report by 3/26/2012, but how did he get the phone? And where did it go after him? Why hasn't FDLE provided their own chain of custody?

Maybe this is one of the “chain of custody issues” West and O’Mara previously alluded to.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on November 27, 2012, 07:46:35 PM
As long as we're talking about Trayvon's cell phone, a T-Mobile Comet, made by Samsung, is anyone familiar with that model?

I was specifically wondering if it gives an audible low battery warning, and how loudly and how often, and does whether it's in use at the time make a difference.

(My own hunk 'o junk LG Verizon phone made a funny noise today, and then did it again about 10 or 15 minutes later, and I finally figured out it was because I hadn't gotten around to hooking it up to the charger in quite some time, which is what made me think of this.)
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: turbo6 on November 30, 2012, 08:42:10 PM
The Comet was made by Huawei, not Samsung. The company seems to be regarded a bit on lower end of smart phone manufacturers. I played with my friend's Huawei running an older Android OS and it was pretty lackluster. Most reviews seem to portray the Comet as a very entry level smartphone.

I think my biggest question here, aside from what data is on the internal memory, is how did the phone die during DeeDee's call? It didn't appear to be jostled to where the back cover flew off and the battery came out - that is evident in the picture. Unless the back covered perhaps wiggled its way slightly off, enough for the battery to become a tad unseated. I could imagine if the battery was mostly depleted, became unseated and sat for a week or more before the police tried to access it - that could possibly explain was it was dead. The phone was about two years old, I would imagine the battery was as well, and not able to hold an optimal charge.

Water damage I guess is ruled out here because the police were able to access it and attempt to crack the password to no available. I suppose movement of the battery is the most plausible explanation. The battery just simply dying naturally at that very second before the confrontation could be possible, just not probable.



Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on December 01, 2012, 01:47:21 AM
sat for a week or more before the police tried to access it

Where are you getting that? SPD tried to access the phone that very night, according to Sgt. Santiago's report (p. 16 of the May 17 release (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf)).

Quote
Upon Agent Shor's arrival he told me that he could not down load any information because the cell phone battery was either very low or the was not operable because the cell phone had gotten wet because of the current weather condition (wet and rain).
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: annoyedbeyond on December 02, 2012, 08:20:10 AM
Where are you getting that? SPD tried to access the phone that very night, according to Sgt. Santiago's report (p. 16 of the May 17 release (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf)).

Reading is fundamental and words often times have meaning. Case in point:

" I could imagine if
the battery was mostly depleted, became unseated and sat for a week or more before the police tried to access it - that could possibly explain was it was dead. The phone was about two years old, I would imagine the battery was as well, and not able to hold an optimal charge."

Turbo didn't say it did happen that way, rather "if" it happened that way that might explain it.

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on December 02, 2012, 06:57:27 PM
Actually I was wondering if his phone might have low-battery beeped loudly enough to have been overheard by someone else.

That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with anything, but once the thought occured I couldn't very well not wonder about it.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: turbo6 on December 03, 2012, 05:15:50 PM
Actually I was wondering if his phone might have low-battery beeped loudly enough to have been overheard by someone else.

That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with anything, but once the thought occured I couldn't very well not wonder about it.

I know all phones are different, but I've never had one personally that was distinctly loud. Even in a fairly quiet house I won't always hear my phone beeping from a room or two away.

However if Martin's battery was critically low, I would imagine he would have made some mention of it. DeeDee likely would have spoke of it  (or not, who knows) but it just seems like in a situation like that it would have came up in conversation, at least to dispel any concern to DeeDee if the connection was lost - she would at least know why.

On a side note, most of my techie cell phone loving friends, as well as most of my teenage relatives who are phone junkies all have the same thing in common...their phones are plugged in constantly when not in use. I don't necessarily know if its out of the horrendous battery drain of newer devices or just not wanting any downtime with a dead phone. But we don't know the specifics of Martin's cell habits, so we don't know.

Though, I still tend to lean towards an unseated battery that was fairly low to begin to with as the culprit for his dead phone.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: FromBelow on December 03, 2012, 07:39:47 PM
It would be interesting to know at what point that specific phone starts beeping and for how much longer it would run before running out of juice. Does it even beep? Was it still on at the time the attack occurred? According to DD, yes. Someone had to have heard it. We're only talking about a few minutes here. Surely it didn't run out of juice within the few minute window between the start of the fight (that DD says she heard) to the shot and the witnesses/police showing up. That would be freakishly good (or bad) timing. Would ping logs show exactly when the phone stopped working?

Speaking of which, are we sure it ran out of juice? I vaguely recall that water is what stopped it from working.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on December 04, 2012, 12:45:31 AM
It would be interesting to know at what point that specific phone starts beeping and for how much longer it would run before running out of juice. Does it even beep? Was it still on at the time the attack occurred? According to DD, yes. Someone had to have heard it. We're only talking about a few minutes here. Surely it didn't run out of juice within the few minute window between the start of the fight (that DD says she heard) to the shot and the witnesses/police showing up. That would be freakishly good (or bad) timing. Would ping logs show exactly when the phone stopped working?

Speaking of which, are we sure it ran out of juice? I vaguely recall that water is what stopped it from working.

Apparently the police tried to use a thing on it called a Cellebrite, which is a sort of cell phone "forensic hacking" device, but it didn't work, and they theorized it was low battery or water or both that interfered, but that was cops talking, not electronics engineers.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on December 04, 2012, 03:58:18 AM
I vaguely recall that water is what stopped it from working.

Apparently the police tried to use a thing on it called a Cellebrite, which is a sort of cell phone "forensic hacking" device, but it didn't work, and they theorized it was low battery or water or both that interfered, but that was cops talking, not electronics engineers.

Cited here. (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2166.msg103960.html#msg103960)

AFAIK the discovery includes no conclusion about why the phone stopped working.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on December 04, 2012, 04:09:48 AM
Water damage I guess is ruled out here because the police were able to access it and attempt to crack the password to no available.

I thought that at first. On reflection, it depends on what was damaged. It could have been the battery itself. If it was just the power leads, that could be easily bypassed in the lab. A more sophisticated lab might be able to bypass even greater damage.

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on December 04, 2012, 04:24:38 AM
Someone had to have heard it.

Not if it started beeping as the two men were shouting.

If Dee Dee did hear a beep, she might not have recognized its significance. She might have ignored it and forgotten it.

Quote
Surely it didn't run out of juice within the few minute window between the start of the fight (that DD says she heard) to the shot and the witnesses/police showing up.

Testing the phone wasn't the first thing the police did. First they arrested Zimmerman and tried to save Martin. When the phone was found, Sgt. Santiago called someone to bring the Cellebrite. His report doesn't say how long that took.

It would still be a remarkable coincidence. I thought so the first time I read that report.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on December 04, 2012, 05:04:38 AM
Someone had to have heard it. We're only talking about a few minutes here. Surely it didn't run out of juice within the few minute window between the start of the fight (that DD says she heard) to the shot and the witnesses/police showing up.

I just realized you probably meant that police/witnesses would have heard the phone beeping as it lay in the grass.

I don't think that is certain. It was raining hard (except according to Dee Dee). They were talking among themselves. Their attention was engaged. No one knew Martin had a cell phone until it was found. If an occasional beep was physically audible, it could easily have passed unremarked.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 02, 2013, 02:38:27 PM
DiwataMan has an interesting article (http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/investigators-should-be-able-to-access-trayvons-phone/#comments) on Martin's cellphone and the Cellebrite device. He shows that the company says the device can bypass the password security that's supposedly prevented the police from accessing the information stored on the phone.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 02, 2013, 03:11:25 PM
DiwataMan has an interesting article (http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/investigators-should-be-able-to-access-trayvons-phone/#comments) on Martin's cellphone and the Cellebrite device. He shows that the company says the device can bypass the password security that's supposedly prevented the police from accessing the information stored on the phone.

Police reports should be more reliable than advertising claims.

One would hope.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on January 02, 2013, 04:46:09 PM
DiwataMan has an interesting article (http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/investigators-should-be-able-to-access-trayvons-phone/#comments) on Martin's cellphone and the Cellebrite device. He shows that the company says the device can bypass the password security that's supposedly prevented the police from accessing the information stored on the phone.

They tried to use one that night, presumably to help figure out who the dead stranger was, but due to water damage or low battery or gremlins or whatever, couldn't get anywhere with it.

Once they had him indentified the next morning, that may have made a difference in what they're legally allowed to do, because they might no longer have been able to argue exigent circumstances for something where otherwise they'd need a search warrant.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 02, 2013, 06:00:31 PM
Police reports should be more reliable than advertising claims.

No report I've seen specifically mentions the Cellebrite, other than the one on the first night, when the phone was non-functional.  There was that report by Steve Brenton on the phone that wasn't initially turned over to the defense, but we haven't seen it, so we don't know if the Cellebrite was used, or if it was, why it didn't work to bypass the password.

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 02, 2013, 06:05:55 PM
Once they had him indentified the next morning, that may have made a difference in what they're legally allowed to do, because they might no longer have been able to argue exigent circumstances for something where otherwise they'd need a search warrant.

That's a good point, but I don't think they needed a warrant. The police report on page 16 of the 184 page PDF says the police concluded they didn't, probably because the phone's owner was no longer living.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 02, 2013, 07:23:04 PM
No report I've seen specifically mentions the Cellebrite, other than the one on the first night

So the SPD lost theirs, and the FDLE and SAO haven't been able to get another one in all this time?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 02, 2013, 08:59:41 PM
So the SPD lost theirs, and the FDLE and SAO haven't been able to get another one in all this time?

So Cellebrite just outright lies about the functionality of their device? I can offer unlikely conjectures, too, but it gets us no closer to knowing why the police and prosecutors can't get the information off the phone.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 02, 2013, 09:30:16 PM
One thing I'd expect to see in discovery, no matter what else, is communication between the police agencies and Cellebrite technical support on if and how the phone data can be extracted and decoded.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 02, 2013, 09:34:24 PM
So Cellebrite just outright lies about the functionality of their device? I can offer unlikely conjectures, too, but it gets us no closer to knowing why the police and prosecutors can't get the information off the phone.

I won't be too surprised if the advertising or the police reports turn out to be inaccurate.

I was just trying to understand the logic of your response.

If an early report shows the SPD had access to a Cellebrite, and later reports show they were unable to do certain things, then the Cellebrite can't do those things, or they no longer had access to one, or the reports are incorrect.

Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 02, 2013, 09:56:58 PM
Am I missing something?

Not really. My point was simply that Cellebrite seems to say their gadget can access and decode the phone information, and nothing we've seen from the police explains why they can't. I'm really getting impatient with the lack of transparency in the discovery, given Florida's sunshine law requirements. Why haven't we at least seen a redacted version of Steve Brenton's report? Or anything from the 9th discovery supplement? Or the list of discovery in the 11th supplement?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 02, 2013, 10:11:55 PM
I've thought of another possibility. Maybe the LEOs don't have enough technicians who know how to make the Cellebrite do everything it can do.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 02, 2013, 10:50:44 PM
I've thought of another possibility. Maybe the LEOs don't have enough technicians who know how to make the Cellebrite do everything it can do.

That's why I'd expect to see some communication between the police and the Cellebrite technical support staff.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: FromBelow on January 03, 2013, 12:35:27 AM
As I understand it the Cellebrite would only be able to bypass the security if the phone's USB debugging is turned on. Do people usually do that?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on January 03, 2013, 12:14:57 PM
That's a good point, but I don't think they needed a warrant. The police report on page 16 of the 184 page PDF says the police concluded they didn't, probably because the phone's owner was no longer living.

The phone's user is deceased, but the argument can be made that the owner has always been Tracy Martin, and not his late son.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 03, 2013, 12:42:53 PM
I thought the most likely reason they wouldn't need a warrant to explore the phone was that the phone itself had already been properly seized as evidence found at a crime scene. But IANAL.

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 03, 2013, 01:12:21 PM
The police report on page 16 of the 184 page PDF says the police concluded they didn't, probably because the phone's owner was no longer living.

To clarify this point, the report says the decision was made on 2/28, which is after Trayvon Martin was identified.

I don't think needing to identify a homicide victim would be an exigent circumstance.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 03, 2013, 02:11:07 PM
Unitron's and nomamtter_nevermind's comments make me realize how little I actually know about the detailed rules for when a warrant is required and when it's not. I think there should be a difference between when a cell phone can be seized as an object and when the information on the cell phone can be accessed. I know, though, that the California supreme court held awhile ago that police can search the entire contents of a cell phone without a warrant, incident to an arrest. (I think that ruling would very possibly be overturned if it gets to the U.S. Supreme Court.)
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 23, 2013, 12:53:21 PM
This timeline may be helpful in understanding the call sequence. Keep in mind the call start times are rounded down and the end times are rounded up. "ND.nonTMob" stands for North Dade, non-T-Mobile.  Zimmerman's NEN call is shown, with the times rounded like the other calls.


6:30 TM->DD
6:31   |
6:32   |
6:33   |
6:34   |
6:35   |
6:36   |
6:37   |
6:38   |
6:39   |
6:40   |
6:41   |      TMob->TM
6:42   |        |
6:43   |        |
6:44            |
6:45 TM->DD
6:46   |      TM->ND.nonTMob
6:47   |        |
6:48   |        |
6:49 DD->TM
6:50   |
6:51   |
6:52   |
6:53   |      TM->DD
6:54 DD->TM   TM->DD
6:55   |        |
6:56   |                     
6:57   |
6:58   |
6:59   |
7:00   |
7:01   |
7:02   |
7:03   |
7:04   |      nonTMob->TM
7:05   |        |
7:06   |
7:07   |
7:08   |      *Text->TM*
7:09   |      (Z's NEN Call)
7:10   |        \
7:11   |        /
7:12 DD->TM     \
7:13   |        /
7:14   |        \
7:15   |
7:16   |

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 23, 2013, 01:20:28 PM
The 6:53 and 6:54 calls can be confirmed as DeeDee calls by looking carefully at the partially blurred images of the numbers from ABC news shown in DiwawtaMan's article (http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/trayvons-phone-records/) on the phone records.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 23, 2013, 03:40:08 PM
Here's something interesting I noticed. I rechecked DiwataMan's article, and noticed I could only see one of the blurred phone numbers for the outgoing calls at  6:53 and 6:54. I wanted to verify both numbers, so I searched for the original ABC report, since the one on the ABC website seems to have vanished. I found a copy (http://www.cruise-addicts.com/forums/youtube-browser?do=show&vidid=YIuQ3VeSkTs), and watched the relevant section a bunch of times, trying my best to pause it at the correct moments. I noticed that it doesn't seem to match the PDF version (http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf) I have a link to. The PDF version has both the outgoing 6:54 and 6:53 calls listed on the same page, but the one in the video ends with the 6:54 call. I'd previously noticed an anomaly in the PDF version of the 6:53 call, where the date and time are on the same line, running together.

(I'm slightly sickened by bias in the ABC report, still using pictures of Martin when he was just a tyke. And that "records obtained by ABC news" garbage. I guess it sounds more impressive than "records handed to us by Benjamin Crump.")
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on January 23, 2013, 07:13:24 PM
This timeline may be helpful in understanding the call sequence. Keep in mind the call start times are rounded down and the end times are rounded up. "ND.nonTMob" stands for North Dade, non-T-Mobile.  Zimmerman's NEN call is shown, with the times rounded like the other calls.


6:30 TM->DD
6:31   |
6:32   |
6:33   |
6:34   |
6:35   |
6:36   |
6:37   |
6:38   |
6:39   |
6:40   |
6:41   |      TMob->TM
6:42   |        |
6:43   |        |
6:44            |
6:45 TM->DD
6:46   |      TM->ND.nonTMob
6:47   |        |
6:48   |        |
6:49 DD->TM
6:50   |
6:51   |
6:52   |
6:53   |      TM->DD
6:54 DD->TM   TM->DD
6:55   |        |
6:56   |                     
6:57   |
6:58   |
6:59   |
7:00   |
7:01   |
7:02   |
7:03   |
7:04   |      nonTMob->TM
7:05   |        |
7:06   |
7:07   |
7:08   |      *Text->TM*
7:09   |      (Z's NEN Call)
7:10   |        \
7:11   |        /
7:12 DD->TM     \
7:13   |        /
7:14   |        \
7:15   |
7:16   |



If I could impose upon you to save me a lot of reading and cross-checking and general thinking hard and making my brain hurt, when along that time line would you say the young lady places Martin's first mention of Zimmerman?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 23, 2013, 09:27:13 PM
If I could impose upon you to save me a lot of reading and cross-checking and general thinking hard and making my brain hurt, when along that time line would you say the young lady places Martin's first mention of Zimmerman?

An interesting question, but one to which I can't even offer a reasonable guess.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 23, 2013, 11:41:06 PM
If I could impose upon you to save me a lot of reading and cross-checking and general thinking hard and making my brain hurt, when along that time line would you say the young lady places Martin's first mention of Zimmerman?

For a first approximation, it was during the next to last call, so between 6:54 and 7:12

Dee Dee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=relmfu) said a 'couple minutes' passed between Martin reaching the mail shade and telling her about Zimmerman. (5:58-6:23) She didn't suggest such an uneventful interval between Martin telling her about Zimmerman and deciding to start walking. She also said that concern about being watched was the reason for that decision.

6:43-48
Quote
Dee Dee: He was telling me that, like, he, this man was watching him, so he [unintelligible] started walking.

The 7:12 call interruption was the next thing Dee Dee mentioned after Martin started walking. So, I would say Martin telling Dee Dee about Zimmerman could have been as late as 7:11, more likely a minute or two earlier.

Zimmerman's NEN call connected at 7:09:34 (p. 46 of the logs (http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/911CallHistory.pdf)).
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: leftwig on January 24, 2013, 07:30:39 AM
I'd say its anybody's guess.  Many have assumed (myself included) that the time of TM running into the the "gated place" and taking shelter at the "mail thingy" corresponds with the start of the 6:54 call which lasted 18 minutes, ending at 7:12 which is when TM "ran" from GZ.  However, if you look at her testimony, Dee Dee says that when TM was about to leave the shelter to start walking, the phone hung up and she called him back.  If we trust her recollection of when the phone hung up and it being tied to an event (phone hung up when TM ran for shelter, phone hung up as he started walking from under shelter, phone hung up when TM ran from GZ), then the phone hanging up when he was about to leave shelter and start walking would have to coincide with the start of the 6:54 call and that would put TM running for shelter at an earlier call that got disconnected.   

Personally, I don't think we can use Dee Dee's testimony to establish much of a timeline of where TM was and when as her description of calls hanging up and what was happening at the time doesn't seem to fit.  I'm not suggesting she is making stuff up, but that her recollection, like most witnesses isn't exact. 

One question about the cellphone records.  This may have been discussed here before, but I was reading at another site about how T Mobile shows times/length of calls on there bills.  They said if a call started at 7:11:59 and ended at 7:12:01, the bill would show this as a 2 minute call that started at 7:11.  Is this correct?  If true, this would mean that Dee Dee's last call would have started between 7:11:00 and 7:11:59 and ended between 7:15:01 and 7:15:59.  We know that seconds haven't been provided to us, but is second component of when a call started/ended available from TMobile? 
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: AghastInFL on January 24, 2013, 08:19:56 AM
I would reserve opinion until such time that actual records could be reviewed IOW I do not trust the file provided by Attn. Crump.
I have no reason to believe he has or will submit verifiable and accurate records,  the recent shenanigans with the recording device and the discrepancy of recording times is but one example.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 24, 2013, 10:59:03 AM
However, if you look at her testimony, Dee Dee says that when TM was about to leave the shelter to start walking, the phone hung up and she called him back.

I'd been assuming that Martin started walking before the call drop. Actually, though, the call drop was the next event in Dee Dee's narrative after Martin told her he was going to start walking. So it could have been after he started walking, or just before.

Quote
If we trust her recollection of when the phone hung up and it being tied to an event (phone hung up when TM ran for shelter, phone hung up as he started walking from under shelter, phone hung up when TM ran from GZ)

I think you're mistaken about the last one. It's not on the SAO interview. I don't think the recordings of the Crump interview have anything intelligible about the call drops, except the final one after the start of the confrontation.

If the NEN connection time of 7:09:34 corresponds to the start of the recording, then the 7:12 call drop would have happened after Zimmerman said Martin was running. It may have been well after Martin stopped running, because of the rounding issue you mentioned. But Willisnewton speculated that Martin stopped running because his phone rang. That was consistent with one of his pet theories, so it was one of the points that he repeated a bit. I'm thinking that may be where you got the idea of a call drop at that time.     

Quote
They said if a call started at 7:11:59 and ended at 7:12:01, the bill would show this as a 2 minute call that started at 7:11.

I've been hearing this for a long time. We were discussing it on the blog before the forum opened. It seems to be agreed to by everyone who claims to know. I can't say I've seen an authoritative source.

Quote
We know that seconds haven't been provided to us, but is second component of when a call started/ended available from TMobile?

It's my understanding that such information should be retrievable from the phone itself.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 11:31:03 AM
One question about the cellphone records.  This may have been discussed here before, but I was reading at another site about how T Mobile shows times/length of calls on there bills.  They said if a call started at 7:11:59 and ended at 7:12:01, the bill would show this as a 2 minute call that started at 7:11.  Is this correct?

I've said that myself, but I don't think it's correct. The bill gives only start time and length -- no end time. I think the actual method is that the start time is the minute in which the call began, rounded down, and the length is the length of the call, rounded up. So a call that began at 7:12:10 and ended at 7:12:25 would be listed as a 1 minute call at 7:12.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: leftwig on January 24, 2013, 12:52:54 PM
I think you're mistaken about the last one. It's not on the SAO interview. I don't think the recordings of the Crump interview have anything intelligible about the call drops, except the final one after the start of the confrontation.

If the NEN connection time of 7:09:34 corresponds to the start of the recording, then the 7:12 call drop would have happened after Zimmerman said Martin was running. It may have been well after Martin stopped running, because of the rounding issue you mentioned. But Willisnewton speculated that Martin stopped running because his phone rang. That was consistent with one of his pet theories, so it was one of the points that he repeated a bit. I'm thinking that may be where you got the idea of a call drop at that time.     

You are absolutely correct about the first part.  Her last call starts with TM having just left the mail thingy to walk, not with him running from GZ.  The previous call ends with him about to walk and the next call begins with him already walking, so how far he might have been from the mail thingy that Dee Dee describes is anyones guess.

So if I have this correct now, the 6:54 call that had TM running for shelter,  started anywhere from 6:54:00 - 6:54:59 lasted 18 minutes and if the call closing time is rounded up, means it ended between 7:11:00 and 7:11:59 (it lasted at most 18 minutes and as little as 16 min and 2 sec).  The next incoming call from Dee Dee connects at 7:12, or sometime between 7:12:00 and 7:12:59.  Depending on the actual gap between those 2 calls (which could be up to nearly 2 minutes), its possible for TM to have walked casually to the 'T' during that time, however, the starting time of that call (sometime after 7:12) doesn't fit the NEN call of when GZ said TM ran which was around  7:11:40.   This is probably where I got confused above because the last call connection appears to have connected after TM ran, not before as Dee Dee recalls.  The call drop could have occurred before or at the time TM ran, but the last call would have to have been connected after he ran.  Thats a significant point given Dee Dee's testimony.

What will be most interesting to find out is when the last call got disconnected.  If TMobile rounds calls as indicated, it could have ended anywhere from 7:15:01 to 7:15:59.  She details hearing a verbal confrontation as well as some pushing or shoving and a little bit of get off, so probably about 10-15 seconds or so of active confrontation before the hangup.  That could possibly mean that the confrontation started a little over a minute or so after GZ hung up with NEN.  This is somewhat corroborated by W11's 911 call which connects at 7:16:11.  Give her some time to decide calling 911 was necessary, get upstairs, dial the call and get connected and that probably means the "arguing" started a good 30 seconds or so before the call connected.

I know of no one who uses TMobile, but how the call times are recorded appears to be agreed upon by those who do.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 24, 2013, 12:57:31 PM
If the NEN connection time of 7:09:34 corresponds to the start of the recording, then the 7:12 call drop would have happened after Zimmerman said Martin was running.

To expand on this a bit, this means that if it is confirmed that the connection time on the event report corresponds to the start of the recording, that would cast doubt on Dee Dee's story. It would also suggest that her story might have been fabricated by someone using Singleton's erroneous timeline, which was included in Serino's report (39-40/184 (http://www.axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf)). I did the math on that some time ago, and as I recall it checked out.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: leftwig on January 24, 2013, 02:08:26 PM
Seems like either NEN call timeline helps GZ.  As you mention, if the 7:09:34 time is the correct start time, then Dee Dee's narrative falls apart.  IF Singleton's erroneous timeline is correct (about 2 minutes later than the 7:09:34 which seems to be the accepted start time), then GZ and TM met almost immediately after the NEN call ended and it would be clear that GZ didn't pursue/chase after TM.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on January 24, 2013, 02:40:49 PM
Susan over at LL2, also a T-mobile customer, did some experimenting back in April for her Timeline thread.

Allow me to let her tell you in her own words--

" Having finally looked at a longer copy of the phone records for Trayvon Martin's phone, I've revised portions of the timeline to reflect the new information contained there. However, I now believe that the T-Mobile call logs are hopelessly unreliable for giving call times with any accuracy more than + 59 seconds. I did some rough experiments with my own phone, since my cell plan is also through T-Mobile, and it appears to me that the recorded times on T-Mobile statements are not at all exact, and can be as much as 59 seconds off from the actual time at which a call was made. Calls were wrongly recorded both as occurring later and sooner than from when they were actually made, so the error isn't due to T-Mobile's clock being fast or slow -- the times are just off.]"

So we can rely on 7:09:34, but 7:12 could be anytime after 7:11 or before 7:13, apparently.

She posited elsewhere that Martin's last call was probably from about 7:11:30 to 7:15:30, which would give the struggle pretty much just enough time to get going good enough to attract attention and result in the 7:16:11 911 call.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 03:44:40 PM
I added some extra details to my timeline. I also used a colon to mark minutes which the call may or may not have extended into.


6:30 TM->DD
6:31   |
6:32   |
6:33   |
6:34   |
6:35   |
6:36   |
6:37   |
6:38   |
6:39   |
6:40   |
6:41   |      TMob->TM
6:42   |        |
6:43   :        |
6:44            :
6:45 TM->DD
6:46   |      TM->ND.nonTMob
6:47   |        |
6:48   |        :
6:49 DD->TM
6:50   |
6:51   |
6:52   |
6:53   :      TM->DD
6:54 DD->TM   TM->DD
6:55   |        :
6:56   |                     
6:57   |
6:58   |
6:59   |
7:00   |
7:01   |
7:02   |
7:03   |
7:04   |      nonTMob->TM
7:05   |        :
7:06   |
7:07   |
7:08   |      *Text->TM*
7:09   |      (Z's NEN Call: 7:09:34)
7:10   |        | (He's got a button on his shirt: 7:10:45)
7:11   |        | (He's running: 7:11:41)
7:12 DD->TM     | (He ran: 7:12:10)
7:13   |        | (End: 7:13:38)
7:14   |
7:15   |
7:16   :     (W11: 7:16:11) (W3: 7:16:41) (Gun shot: 17:16:56)
7:17         (W18: 7:17:06) (W6: 7:17:15) (W5: 7:17:54)       
7:18         (W19: 7:18:00)
7:19         (W14, W15: 7:19:04)

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 04:03:50 PM
To expand on this a bit, this means that if it is confirmed that the connection time on the event report corresponds to the start of the recording, that would cast doubt on Dee Dee's story. It would also suggest that her story might have been fabricated by someone using Singleton's erroneous timeline, which was included in Serino's report (39-40/184 (http://www.axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf)). I did the math on that some time ago, and as I recall it checked out.

Those seem to me to be very significant observations. I suspect DeeDee and Crump will be asked about that.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 24, 2013, 04:13:40 PM
I added some extra details to my timeline.

I want to call attention to something I'm too lazy to do the math on right now.

In an earlier post, (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2161.msg105553.html#msg105553) I assumed the 6:49 call was from someone not Dee Dee. That was because Martin's 6:45 call to North Dade was 5 minutes long. I think MJW is saying that, because of the rounding issue, it is possible Dee Dee was on both calls.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 04:23:17 PM
Here is the (likely false) Singleton version of the timeline. It fits well with DeeDee's account.

7:04   |      nonTMob->TM
7:05   |        :
7:06   |
7:07   |
7:08   |      *Text->TM*
7:09   |
7:10   |
7:11   |
7:12 DD->TM  (Z's NEN Call: 7:11:12)
7:13   |        | (He's running: 7:13:19)       
7:14   |        |
7:15   |        | (End: 7:15:23)
7:16   :     (W11: 7:16:43)
7:17         (Gun shot: 17:17:20)
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 04:30:05 PM
I want to call attention to something I'm too lazy to do the math on right now.

In an earlier post, (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2161.msg105553.html#msg105553) I assumed the 6:49 call was from someone not Dee Dee. That was because Martin's 6:45 call to North Dade was 5 minutes long. I think MJW is saying that, because of the rounding issue, it is possible Dee Dee was on both calls.

I'll have to look more carefully at that call. The timing does allow it to be a call from DeeDee, but I can't recall if I had some other reason for believing it was, or if it just a T Mobile call that fit into a gap in the calls.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 04:39:36 PM
Corrected Singleton version. I mis-edited the first one.

7:04   |      nonTMob->TM
7:05   |        :
7:06   |
7:07   |
7:08   |      *Text->TM*
7:09   |
7:10   |
7:11   |      (Z's NEN Call: 7:11:12)
7:12 DD->TM     |
7:13   |        | (He's running: 7:13:19)       
7:14   |        |
7:15   |        | (End: 7:15:23)
7:16   :     (W11: 7:16:43)
7:17         (Gun shot: 17:17:20)
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: RickyJim on January 24, 2013, 04:48:12 PM
To expand on this a bit, this means that if it is confirmed that the connection time on the event report corresponds to the start of the recording, that would cast doubt on Dee Dee's story. It would also suggest that her story might have been fabricated by someone using Singleton's erroneous timeline, which was included in Serino's report (39-40/184 (http://www.axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf)). I did the math on that some time ago, and as I recall it checked out.

Please expand even more.  All I get so far in that the known times that things were said on the NEN call and the approximate times that calls ended on DeeDee's calls may be in conflict.  TIA.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 05:28:08 PM
Please expand even more.  All I get so far in that the known times that things were said on the NEN call and the approximate times that calls ended on DeeDee's calls may be in conflict.  TIA.

 DeeDee said the phone hung up when Martin started walking, and when she called him back, he was still walking, with Zimmerman following in his car. However, DeeDee called between 7:12:00 and 7:12:59, and Martin ran at 7:11:41. Zimmerman was already out of his truck by the time DeeDee called.

Using Singleton's time line, Martin approached Zimmerman at 7:12:23. and didn't run until 7:13:19, which fits well with DeeDee's account.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 05:49:58 PM
I'll have to look more carefully at that call. The timing does allow it to be a call from DeeDee, but I can't recall if I had some other reason for believing it was, or if it just a T Mobile call that fit into a gap in the calls.

So far, I've verified (based on DiwataMan's ABC call logs)  that the 6:45 call was probably to DeeDee, but I haven't found anything either way on the incoming 6:49 call.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: RickyJim on January 24, 2013, 05:56:39 PM
DeeDee said the phone hung up when Martin started walking, and when she called him back, he was still walking, with Zimmerman following in his car. However, DeeDee called between 7:12:00 and 7:12:59, and Martin ran at 7:11:41. Zimmerman was already out of his truck by the time DeeDee called.

Using Singleton's time line, Martin approached Zimmerman at 7:12:23. and didn't run until 7:13:19, which fits well with DeeDee's account.
I think the most likely scenario is that Zimmerman didn't exit his car until he saw Martin turn into the dog path at about 7:11:43.  Martin didn't know that Zimmerman had gotten out of the car until he spotted Zimmerman in the T area which I think was better lit than the dog path.  At that time, Martin might have been close to Brandy's house, even if he slowed down to a walk after turning the corner at the T.  Zimmerman would not have been able to see Martin because of the almost total darkness where Martin was (as Austin explained).  Is DeeDee's narrative more or less consistent with my scenario?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 24, 2013, 06:00:19 PM
However, DeeDee called between 7:12:00 and 7:12:59, and Martin ran at 7:11:41.

If Susan Simpson (http://viewfromll2.com/2012/04/05/minute-by-minute-timeline-of-trayvon-martins-death/) at LL2 is correct, the call could have been as early as 7:11:01.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 06:11:31 PM
If Susan Simpson (http://viewfromll2.com/2012/04/05/minute-by-minute-timeline-of-trayvon-martins-death/) at LL2 is correct, the call could have been as early as 7:11:01.

It would have been helpful if she'd explained how she determined what she claims. What did the bill show? what were her actual call times? and how did she determine the true time? She's said a number of things I believe were clearly wrong, so in the absence of better evidence, I don't take her too seriously. On the other hand, I have no evidence that my assumptions about the call start times are correct.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: RickyJim on January 24, 2013, 06:24:06 PM
It would have been helpful if she'd explained how she determined what she claims. What did the bill show? what were her actual call times? and how did she determine the true time? She's said a number of things I believe were clearly wrong, so in the absence of better evidence, I don't take her too seriously. On the other hand, I have no evidence that my assumptions about the call start times are correct.

The document (http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf) she gives for the call records doesn't show seconds.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 06:26:18 PM
Is DeeDee's narrative more or less consistent with my scenario?

Not if she called between 7:12:00 and 7:12:59. Her story is that at the time she called, Martin was still walking, and Zimmerman was following in his car.

Quote
Dee Dee:  A couple minutes later he come and tell me this man is watchin’ him.
BDLR:  OK…did he describe the man who was watching him?
Dee Dee:  Yeah, he said white.
BDLR:  OK, did he say whether the man was standing, sitting…
Dee Dee:  In a car.
BDLR:  In a car?
Dee Dee:  Yeah.
Dee Dee:  He was on the phone.
BDLR:  He was on the phone?
Dee Dee:  Yeah.
BDLR:  OK, and what did Trayvon say after that?
Dee Dee:  He was telling me like…like he a man watching him, so he like started walking.
BDLR:  He, Trayvon, started walking?
Dee Dee:  He goin’ start walking.
BDLR:  OK.
Dee Dee:  And then…the phone hung up. And I call him back again.  And then, I say ‘What you doin’?’ and he say he walkin’ and he said this man still following him, behind the car.  And I’m like…or like, he told me…he tell me..he put his hoodie on, so I like…
BDLR:  He, Trayvon, put his hoodie on.
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR:  OK…
Dee Dee:  Cause, he said it was startin’ a little bit dripping water….
BDLR: Uh huh.
Dee Dee: So he put his hoodie on. So I said, ‘What’s going on?’  He said this man is still watching him. Like in a car…so he about to run from the back. So then I told him, go to his dad house. Run to his Dad house.
BDLR: Go to what?
Dee Dee: Run to his dad house.
BDLR:  To his dad’s house?
Dee Dee: Yeah.
BDLR:  OK.
Dee Dee: So he say he about to run for the back cause its mo’ easier, he said.  So, next thing I hear, he gettin’ run. And I can hear that the wind blowin’…
BDLR:  So you could tell he was running at that time…
Dee Dee:  Yeah.

DeeDee's account of what Martin did matches Zimmerman's NEN call, except her call to Martin occurs too early.

(I know nomatter_nevermind dislikes the Stately McDaniel Manor transcript, but it's the one I had handy)
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 06:28:46 PM
The document (http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf) she gives for the call records doesn't show seconds.

I was referring to her own experiments which she claims show the T-Mobile times can be off by +/- 59 seconds.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 06:43:30 PM
For some T-Mobile users, the cost of a call depends on the start time. Therefore, the only sensible way to assign start times is to round down, so a call that begins before the critical time is given a start time before that time, and a call after the critical time is given a start time at or after that time.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 06:57:44 PM
I have confirmed from T-Mobile's support website (http://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-4856) that the call length is rounded up to the nearest minute: "T-Mobile charges for connected calls and rounds up to the nearest minute."

Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: RickyJim on January 24, 2013, 07:03:12 PM
Not if she called between 7:12:00 and 7:12:59. Her story is that at the time she called, Martin was still walking, and Zimmerman was following in his car.

DeeDee's account of what Martin did matches Zimmerman's NEN call, except her call to Martin occurs too early.

(I know nomatter_nevermind dislikes the Stately McDaniel Manor transcript, but it's the one I had handy)

I would assume that most people will find it reasonable that DeeDee could have unintentionally mixed and transposed the contents of several calls together.  She also could have misconstrued Martin telling her that he caught sight of Zimmerman passing along the top of the T as Z was "following" him.  She says nothing about when Zimmerman got out of the car and nothing to contradict that Martin doubled back to the T.  You have to read a lot into her story to find any support for the prosecution's case.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 24, 2013, 07:06:30 PM
I know nomatter_nevermind dislikes the Stately McDaniel Manor transcript, but it's the one I had handy

No issues relevant to our discussion.

One of de la Rionda's questions is omitted. It's the one that elicited 'He was on the phone.'

I've gone from thinking Dee Dee said 'it was still a little bit dripping water' to not feeling sure what the word is. I can't quarrel if someone hears 'startin'. SMM isn't the only one.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 24, 2013, 07:16:12 PM
I would assume that most people will find it reasonable that DeeDee could have unintentionally mixed and transposed the contents of several calls together.

There was only one call made while Zimmerman was present. What call could she mix it up with? The issue isn't just that what DeeDee says doesn't fit the actual timeline; it's also that it fits Singleton's incorrect timeline, which Crump probably had access to. There could be an innocent explanation, but it at least raises questions about DeeDee's account.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 24, 2013, 07:19:31 PM
She also could have misconstrued Martin telling her that he caught sight of Zimmerman passing along the top of the T as Z was "following" him. You have to read a lot into her story to find any support for the prosecution's case.

Nonsense. You have to arbitrarily assume that Dee Dee misunderstood Martin to read the support out of her story.

You also have to ignore that Dee Dee indicated that Martin twice told her that Zimmerman was getting closer.

Dee Dee's story is clearly inconsistent with Zimmerman's account of Martin surprising him from behind. If both their stories are true, why didn't Zimmerman hear Martin talking to Dee Dee on the phone, before Martin spoke to Zimmerman?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: RickyJim on January 24, 2013, 07:37:27 PM
You also have to ignore that Dee Dee indicated that Martin twice told her that Zimmerman was getting closer.

Motion is relative.  I would ask her how she knows Trayvon wasn't moving back towards the man instead of the opposite.  I am still waiting to hear a reasonable DeeDee consistent theory of how the fight started at the T.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 24, 2013, 08:44:40 PM
There was only one call made while Zimmerman was present. What call could she mix it up with? The issue isn't just that what DeeDee says doesn't fit the actual timeline; it's also that it fits Singleton's incorrect timeline, which Crump probably had access to. There could be an innocent explanation, but it at least raises questions about DeeDee's account.

^^This.  And he also had access to the NEN before the meeting w/Bonapart and the family to get the call released to the public.
IMO ALERT!
It is a lot easier to reconcile the calls if you have all the information beforehand.  He was using the wrong information.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 24, 2013, 09:48:45 PM
I think the most likely scenario is that Zimmerman didn't exit his car until he saw Martin turn into the dog path at about 7:11:43.

Yes. From the NEN call, it seems to me that Zimmerman was in the process of exiting the truck as he was answering the question of which way Martin was running.

Quote
Martin didn't know that Zimmerman had gotten out of the car until he spotted Zimmerman in the T area

I don't know. It was all happening at once. Martin could have thrown a glance in that direction and seen that Zimmerman was starting to get out.

Quote
which I think was better lit than the dog path.

It would have been while Zimmerman's headlights were on. If Zimmerman walked through, as he claimed, I think they would have switched off well before he passed the corner of the building and became visible to someone far down dogwalk.

I've done an illustration (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7879890510/in/set-72157631083078146) to show that direct light from the nearest streetlight on TTL wouldn't reach the T. I haven't done the same for RVC, but I think it would be much the same. Zimmerman said he stayed on RVC trying to hit his flashlight because he didn't want to walk back through in the dark, suggesting it was dark around the T.

W-6 said his porch light was on before it all began. He also said it doesn't illuminate much beyond the patio. Other witnesses mentioned their porch lights, but I don't recall for sure if any others said theirs was on before the incident. I don't know if any porch lights were on nearer the T than W-6's unit.

The T may have been a bit less dark because of light from the streetlights reflected by the surroundings, but not by much I would think.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 25, 2013, 03:43:44 AM
Motion is relative.  I would ask her how she knows Trayvon wasn't moving back towards the man instead of the opposite.

Response (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2022.msg105622.html#msg105622) on W-8 thread.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: leftwig on January 25, 2013, 08:21:25 AM
If Susan Simpson (http://viewfromll2.com/2012/04/05/minute-by-minute-timeline-of-trayvon-martins-death/) at LL2 is correct, the call could have been as early as 7:11:01.

I find her statements unconvincing, using words like believe, think, could, etc.  Thats not to say I know she's wrong, but I don't see anything in her statements that leads me to believe she is correct.  I went to the TMobile site, but can't find anything definitive about call times of individual calls.  The other remarks I've heard on the calls from other sites seemed a little more convinced that TMobilie rounds start times down and end times up. 

Here is a link to a "wireless forums" site where a few users talk about TMobile billing and the 2-minute overcharge (unrelated to Martin/Zimmerman case). 

http://www.wirelessforums.org/alt-cellular-t-mobile/tmobile-rip-off-72096.html

There was another site where a user complained that they had used exactly 6.44 minutes of call time, but had been billed for 14 minutes.  There is also a yahoo users group for TMobile users, but you have to subscribe and I'm too lazy to go that far.  The fact that these users have documented that they have calls that were billed for over a minute more than what they used tells me that Ms. Simpson's theory of rounding is incorrect. If you used her rounding theory, you could only be charged for 1 extra minute at most.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: RickyJim on January 25, 2013, 09:00:37 AM
Hmm, I don't understand your argument, Leftwig.  You can have 14 calls, each lasting less than a minute, totaling 6:44 minutes overall.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: leftwig on January 25, 2013, 09:19:41 AM
I do agree that a person could have a bunch of sub 30 second calls which would cause their minutes to be skewed.  I am assuming from the person complaining, they know they didn't have a bunch of calls that short.

Did you look at the link provided?  It provides better detail and actual data from a TMobile user.  The first user mentioned these specific call times:

3 min 33 sec call today : Tmobile log shows a 5 min call
5 min 55 sec call today : Tmobile log shows a 7 min call

If using Susan's theory (start and stop times rounded up or down depending on which minute they are closest to resulting in billing being off by at most :59 seconds), Tmobile would never bill a 3 min 33 second call at 5 minutes.  You'd have to use the rounding theory that calls are rounded down to the minute for start time and up to the minute for stop time.

A theory is offered that the time is off because of call being placed versus call being connected (TMobile starts at the former and phone shows latter), but I'd think 27 seconds would be way to long to account for someone to answer their phone and it would have to be that the call started at just the wrong time to get the extra minute billed.  This user also mention that roughly 25% of their calls are charged at more than a minute longer than the call lasts. 
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: RickyJim on January 25, 2013, 09:35:08 AM
Ok, I buy the round down for start and round up for end theory; phone companies have to make a buck, ya know.  How does this change the analysis of the DeeDee/Trayvon calls?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: leftwig on January 25, 2013, 11:00:37 AM
Ok, I buy the round down for start and round up for end theory; phone companies have to make a buck, ya know.  How does this change the analysis of the DeeDee/Trayvon calls?

I guess for starters, it would mean that Dee Dee's last call would have to have started after TM ran, not before as she details.   I guess one could chalk it up to misremembering which I don't think is out of the question but it would certainly be called out as an inconsistency. 

It would also mean that the last call ended between 7:15:01 and 7:16:00.  If it can be determined that the call ended at the front of that window, it would call into question exactly how much she heard of the exchange. Dee Dee said she stayed on the line after words were exchanged and could hear some bumping and a "little bit of get off" which means the call was still open.   Given other witness statements about how long it took for arguing words to turn to wrestling noises and eventually screams for help (none of which Dee Dee heard) that prompted calls to 911, it seems evident that the start of this activity started in the latter half of that window.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 25, 2013, 02:22:47 PM
The fact that these users have documented that they have calls that were billed for over a minute more than what they used tells me that Ms. Simpson's theory of rounding is incorrect.

What theory?

Simpson talks about calls being 'wrongly recorded', not 'rounded'.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 25, 2013, 02:27:57 PM
There is no end time on T-Mobile bills. There's a start time and a call length. I cited a T-Mobile technical support webpage saying the call length is rounded up to the next minute. I also pointed out that for some users the start time determines the amount charged for the call. That only works properly if the start time is rounded down.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 25, 2013, 02:39:36 PM
What theory?

Simpson talks about calls being 'wrongly recorded', not 'rounded'.

But since she doesn't specify her criteria for the right time, it's nearly meaningless. I find it difficult to believe she's using the time displayed on the phone, and if she's using some other time, why did she think that was the proper standard? Did she just look at her watch? I also don't believe T-Mobile times would differ more than a second or so (at most) from the international time standard.

Here's an experiment for someone with T-Mobile to try. Synchronize your computer with the internet time standard, then compare the time on the phone with the computer's time, waiting for the minute change over. I did that with a non-T-Mobile phone, and they appeared to be almost exactly synchronized.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 25, 2013, 04:06:12 PM
Here's an experiment for someone with T-Mobile to try. Synchronize your computer with the internet time standard, then compare the time on the phone with the computer's time, waiting for the minute change over. I did that with a non-T-Mobile phone, and they appeared to be almost exactly synchronized.

My phone is also not T-Mobile. I found that it is about 45 seconds ahead of the synchronized internet time.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 25, 2013, 06:01:45 PM
My phone is also not T-Mobile. I found that it is about 45 seconds ahead of the synchronized internet time.

I must say, I find that very surprising. My phone changed over at, as afar as I could tell, exactly the same moment. Not that I doubt you'd do it correctly, but you did do the Adjust Date/Time "update now" stuff first, I assume
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 25, 2013, 06:19:27 PM
Not that I doubt you'd do it correctly, but you did do the Adjust Date/Time "update now" stuff first, I assume

Yes. It's the first time I've done it, and I had to look up the directions. But they're pretty simple, and I got the confirmation that the clock was synchronized.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 25, 2013, 06:25:52 PM
Yes. It's the first time I've done it, and I had to look up the directions. But they're pretty simple, and I got the confirmation that the clock was synchronized.

Again, I'm very surprised. Perhaps other people can try it with their phones.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: leftwig on January 26, 2013, 09:18:18 AM
What theory?

Simpson talks about calls being 'wrongly recorded', not 'rounded'.

Her theory was that a call that showed a start time of 7:12 could have started anywhere from 7:11:30 to 7:12:29 and if it was listed as a 4 minute call would have ended any time from 7:15:30 to 7:16:29.  Her theory appears to be incorrect according to what others have said.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on January 26, 2013, 01:33:14 PM
But since she doesn't specify her criteria for the right time, it's nearly meaningless. I find it difficult to believe she's using the time displayed on the phone, and if she's using some other time, why did she think that was the proper standard? Did she just look at her watch? I also don't believe T-Mobile times would differ more than a second or so (at most) from the international time standard.

Here's an experiment for someone with T-Mobile to try. Synchronize your computer with the internet time standard, then compare the time on the phone with the computer's time, waiting for the minute change over. I did that with a non-T-Mobile phone, and they appeared to be almost exactly synchronized.

She made calls with her T-Mobile phone, noting the start and stop times.

Then she compared those to the billing statement and found that what was on the billing statement was "an approximation" of those actual times.

In other words, just because Tracy Martin's bill said Trayvon's last call started at 7:12 doesn't mean it started exactly at 7:12.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 26, 2013, 02:37:15 PM
She made calls with her T-Mobile phone, noting the start and stop times.

The time based on the time her phone displayed? the time on her watch? the time on her computer? the time from WWV?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 26, 2013, 04:18:57 PM
The only thing we have to go on is the records that Tracy Martin submitted to NBC.  We have never actually seen the records that were submitted by TMobile to Prosecution/Defense.  Aren't those protected?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 26, 2013, 05:18:21 PM
The only thing we have to go on is the records that Tracy Martin submitted to NBC.  We have never actually seen the records that were submitted by TMobile to Prosecution/Defense.  Aren't those protected?

Most unfortunately, we haven't seen the records, which are supposedly protected from release by Florida's telecommunication privacy laws. I'm not at all convinced that if the news media went after those records as vigorously as they went after W9's interviews, they couldn't get them released with the names and phone numbers redacted.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 26, 2013, 10:51:59 PM
My phone is also not T-Mobile. I found that it is about 45 seconds ahead of the synchronized internet time.

I looked into the issue a little more, and I found that the time on a cellphone, like the time on a computer is periodically updated from a time standard, but in between times it uses an internal clock. That may explain why your phone wasn't in sync with your computer.

I don't use my cellphone too often, so when I turned it on yesterday, it probably re-synched. Perhaps your phone hasn't synched up for a while, and has drifted off the correct time. I don't know the details of when phones re-sync. I did find and article (http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1915588,00.html) about cellphone time that, among other interesting information, says BlackBerries sync when activated, but also sync to a computer they're connected to. I also found another article (http://www.ehow.com/info_12213388_cell-phone-time-vs-usn-time.html) that says, "Cell phone networks and the U.S. Naval Observatory Clock use the same time standard to ensure accuracy."

Your phone probably has a setting to automatically update the time every so often. You can force the cellphone to update its clock by tuning it off and taking out the battery for a minute or so. When you put the battery back in and turn the phone on, it will have to update the time. (I don't necessarily expect you to try this.)


Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 26, 2013, 11:39:12 PM
But since she doesn't specify her criteria for the right time, it's nearly meaningless. I find it difficult to believe she's using the time displayed on the phone, and if she's using some other time, why did she think that was the proper standard? Did she just look at her watch? I also don't believe T-Mobile times would differ more than a second or so (at most) from the international time standard.

Based on what I just said about time synchronization between the phone and the network, I now doubt the correctness of the bolded part of that comment.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 27, 2013, 04:44:36 AM
You can force the cellphone to update its clock by tuning it off and taking out the battery for a minute or so.

Just so.

I gave the phone a few unpowered minutes, then synchronized the computer clock again before comparing. The phone was behind by 3-4 seconds.

Quote
I don't necessarily expect you to try this.

Does taking the battery out void the warranty?

It's an old phone. The warranty probably expired years ago. If it malfunctions I'll get a new one.

ETA: It surprises me that the cell phone settings menu doesn't include a command for re-synching the phone time.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DiwataMan on January 27, 2013, 07:03:13 AM
My wife has T-Mobile and a smartphone so I did some tests. One new thing I learned is that if I make a call let's say 15 seconds before the top of the minute and end the call 15 seconds after that top of the minute i.e. 7:15:45 to 7:16:15, they do not count that as a 2 minute call as I was previously under impression. It is still counted only as a 1 minute call.

Below are the times I placed a call, the information on the phones call log and the information on T-Mobile's website on my wife's account. I even looked at it in File>Print Preview as we see with Trayvon's phone records.

Time ref.
http://nist.time.gov/

The time on my pc is aprx 4 seconds ahead of that site.

The time on my wife's phone is less than a second behind that site.

6:11:30
Call Log 6:11 10sec Outgoing
T-Mobile 6:11 1min

6:20:15, answered 6:20:30, ended cell and landline 6:20:44,
Call Log 6:20 14sec Outgoing
T-Mobile 6:20 1min

6:25:45 to 6:26:15
Call Log 6:25 21sec Outgoing
T-Mobile 6:25 1min

6:29:00 to 6:29:55
Call Log 6:29 55sec Outgoing
T-Mobile 6:29 1min

7:00:00 to 7:04:15(I called at exactly 7:00:00 but waited 14 seconds to answer the cell)
Call Log 7:00 4m1s Incoming
T-Mobile 7:00 5min

7:24:50 to 7:25:31
Call Log 7:24 41sec Incoming
T-Mobile 7:24 1min
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: unitron on January 27, 2013, 08:55:51 AM
My wife has T-Mobile and a smartphone so I did some tests. One new thing I learned is that if I make a call let's say 15 seconds before the top of the minute and end the call 15 seconds after that top of the minute i.e. 7:15:45 to 7:16:15, they do not count that as a 2 minute call as I was previously under impression. It is still counted only as a 1 minute call.

Below are the times I placed a call, the information on the phones call log and the information on T-Mobile's website on my wife's account. I even looked at it in File>Print Preview as we see with Trayvon's phone records.

Time ref.
http://nist.time.gov/

The time on my pc is aprx 4 seconds ahead of that site.

The time on my wife's phone is less than a second behind that site.

6:11:30
Call Log 6:11 10sec Outgoing
T-Mobile 6:11 1min

6:20:15, answered 6:20:30, ended cell and landline 6:20:44,
Call Log 6:20 14sec Outgoing
T-Mobile 6:20 1min

6:25:45 to 6:26:15
Call Log 6:25 21sec Outgoing
T-Mobile 6:25 1min

6:29:00 to 6:29:55
Call Log 6:29 55sec Outgoing
T-Mobile 6:29 1min

7:00:00 to 7:04:15(I called at exactly 7:00:00 but waited 14 seconds to answer the cell)
Call Log 7:00 4m1s Incoming
T-Mobile 7:00 5min

7:24:50 to 7:25:31
Call Log 7:24 41sec Incoming
T-Mobile 7:24 1min


 7:15:45 to 7:16:15 is only 30 seconds.

If they tried to charge that as 2 minutes customers would show up with pitchforks and torches.

 But 7:15:45 to 7:16:46 will probably get billed as 2 minutes.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 27, 2013, 11:26:13 AM
Does taking the battery out void the warranty?

I don't believe removing the battery voids the warranty or has any other ill-effect, but some people are very reluctant to do anything that might conceivably cause them to lose some data stored on their phone.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 27, 2013, 11:45:31 AM
My wife has T-Mobile and a smartphone so I did some tests.

Thanks very much for doing this. It's what Susan Simpson should have done.

I think it shows is that the T-Mobile time is probably quite accurate, the start time is the call time rounded down, and the call length is the time the call lasted rounded up.

One additional test that might be interesting is to call several seconds before the minute, and answer several seconds after the minute. My guess is that the start time depends on when the phone is answered.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DiwataMan on January 27, 2013, 01:11:51 PM
Thanks very much for doing this. It's what Susan Simpson should have done.

I think it shows is that the T-Mobile time is probably quite accurate, the start time is the call time rounded down, and the call length is the time the call lasted rounded up.

One additional test that might be interesting is to call several seconds before the minute, and answer several seconds after the minute. My guess is that the start time depends on when the phone is answered.

Thanks. My wife went out so I'll have to do that and some other tests later but I believe you are correct. That stuff with the cell phone and time can get confusing. As far as I understand the connection for the call would be between 7:12:00 to 7:12:59. If it connected before that, say at 7:11:59, it would say 7:11 on the bill.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 27, 2013, 10:38:02 PM
I found an interesting internet article (http://www.dslreports.com/faq/11434) on T-Mobile billing practices. According to the article:

Quote
TMO bills for connected calls from SEND to END. Calls are rounded up to the next minute. So if you call a friend and their answering machine picks up in 30 seconds, and then you end the call, that will be a 1 minute call.

If you REJECT a call it will count as a 1 minute call. If you just let it ring and then forward to voicemail on its own then it will NOT count as a 1 minute call or appear in your call detail. You have 500 additional minutes for those type of forwarded calls (called Conditional Call Forwarding). But, if you should exceed 500 minutes then you start using your bucket of whenever minutes or if out of minutes are billed as overage and then it will appear on your call detail. It is highly unusual for most people to run out. Calls forwarded during you free periods (if any) don't use up your 500 Conditional Call Forwarding minutes. A forwarded T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile call is no longer counted as a T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile call.

If the article is correct that calls are billed from "send to end," then I would expect the start time of an outgoing call to be the time the call was placed, not the time it was answered. That may also explain why a call that lasted three minutes could be billed as five minutes.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 27, 2013, 11:00:07 PM
More (perhaps boring) T-Mobile billing info. From T-Mobile Terms and Conditions (http://www.t-mobile.com/Templates/Popup.aspx?PAsset=Ftr_Ftr_TermsAndConditions&print=true):

Quote
We round up any fraction of a minute to the next full minute. Airtime usage is measured from the time the network begins to process a call (before the phone rings or the call is answered) through its termination of the call (after you hang up). Unless otherwise specified in your Rate Plan, the rate for a call (such as nights and weekend rates) is determined by the time the call starts, and that rate applies to the entire call. If we cannot determine the time of your call, we may base the time on the local time associated with your billing address. For some products, such as FlexPay and Prepaid, each minute of a call will be billed according to the time or day applicable to that minute (for example, different rates may apply in one call if the call extends into nights or weekends). T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile calls are those made between T-Mobile customers using their Devices while on the T-Mobile network (and not off-network or roaming on affiliate networks). You may be charged for more than one call/message when you use certain features resulting in multiple inbound or outbound calls/messages (such as call forwarding, call waiting, voicemail, conference calling, and multi-party messaging).
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 27, 2013, 11:05:31 PM
One more thing. Non-completed calls aren't charged. From a message (http://www.howardforums.com/printthread.php?t=105899&pp=15&page=1) from T-Mobile customer service:

Quote
Dear ----:

Thank you for your email and for your continued support of T-Mobile. In response to your question, T-Mobile does not charge our customers for unanswered calls. In order for you to experience a "billed call" a call must be completed (ie. picked up or otherwise accepted).

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Thank you.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DiwataMan on January 28, 2013, 01:38:39 PM
Did a couple more test calls. I tried rejecting an incoming call twice and both times after hitting the reject call button it automatically went to voice mail and did not show up on the T-mobile site. I don't know why it goes to voice mail when rejecting the call maybe just my wife set it up that way or something, I don't know. And yes, it is shown that placing a call before the top of the minute and answered after the top of the minute will result in a time shown on the bill as the time the call was placed and not necessarily answered.

So technically speaking Trayvon could have answered the 7:12 call sometime after 7:13.

12:40:45 to 12:41:15
Call Log 12:40 1m23s
T-Mobile 12:40 2min

Place an outgoing call at 1:06:50, answered at 1:07:10, ended call 1:07:20
Call Log 1:06 10sec
T-Mobile 106 1m

Incoming call at 1:11:50, answered at 1:12:10, ended call 1:12:20
Call Log 1:11 10sec
T-Mobile 1:11 1min
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on January 28, 2013, 02:18:04 PM
Did a couple more test calls.

Thanks again for doing these tests. The last one, with the incoming call, is especially interesting because I don't recall reading anything about the send-to-end rule the specifically addressed what happens for incoming calls. Apparently for both incoming and outgoing completed calls, the call time includes all the time the T-Mobile network is active and the start time is the time the network was first used.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Evil Chinchilla on January 31, 2013, 11:05:06 AM
MoM is now saying that the state has successfully unlocked Trayvon's cellphone and retrieved a "trove" of information, and that he's been given this info by the state with one notable gap-- the records for 2/26/12:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-cell-phone-new-tests-20130131,0,4945051.story

In the OS article, they allege that "CelleBrite Forensics [...] successfully unlocked the data in its flash memory, including GPS information that showed its changing locations. What it found has not been made public."

They then quoted MoM as saying, "It shows you within 10 feet where the phone is."

Since I have never owned a cellphone, I have to ask: How does the GPS work? Does it keep a running record of where the phone is at all times, or is it only activated when the phone is in use? And if it's the latter, how often during the phone activity does it record location?

If it's really true that these records can tell where Trayvon was on 2/26 "within 10 feet," this could be a bombshell.

If the records for 2/26 have mysteriously "disappeared," it's an even bigger bombshell.

Either way, I expect Nelson to respond to MoM's motion for the release of the full records with, "But did you ask Mr. de la Rionda first?"
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: RickyJim on January 31, 2013, 11:12:38 AM
Would the same "within 10 feet" also pinpoint Zimmerman's movements during the NEN call?  If so, it would certainly settle a lot of arguments we have had here.  ;)
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: Evil Chinchilla on January 31, 2013, 11:39:28 AM
MoM's motions for the 2/5/13 hearing allege that the SAO removed Trayvon's cellphone from the FDLE and sent it for info recovery. He also indicates that he hasn't been able to depose W8 yet.

I may be cynical, but I have a feeling that the cellphone records from 2/26 are being withheld from MoM until after W8 has been deposed by him, and will subsequently be made available.

Since W8 was strangely silent until after Crump had the NEN and 911 calls and other info, I think what W8 says in all future narratives will have "newly remembered" details added from those cellphone records.

Of course, strictly IMO.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 02:06:47 PM
He also indicates that he hasn't been able to depose W8 yet.

He doesn't want to depose W-8 until he has all the information he needs to prepare for it. That's probably what you meant, but putting it that way can be misleading/confusing. It sounds like he's ready to depose W-8, and something is specifically preventing that.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 03, 2013, 06:18:41 AM
Thanks again for doing these tests. The last one, with the incoming call, is especially interesting because I don't recall reading anything about the send-to-end rule the specifically addressed what happens for incoming calls. Apparently for both incoming and outgoing completed calls, the call time includes all the time the T-Mobile network is active and the start time is the time the network was first used.

Diwata, I was wondering if you can listen to, edit or delete messages and texts from your home computer if you don't have the benefit of having your cell phone in hand.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: turbo6 on February 06, 2013, 07:34:34 PM
I have T Mobile, and from what I recall, as I don't use the online account access that often, is that you may be able to view texts online, perhaps listen to voicemails but I don't think you can DELETE texts or other multimedia info from a home computer as all that stuff is stored on the SIM card or internal memory.

You might be able to access voicemail from a landline and delete stuff, but that likely requires a PIN/password etc.

GPS stuff gets tricky and maybe there are experts on that lurking but, I don't think T mobile can necessarily pin point you at all times. Might be able to give a rough location via a ping from the closest tower but thats about it.

I actually had my T Mobile cell phone stolen about a year about, they had no idea as to the location of it. I dunno if the rep was clueless but they didn't seem able to provide me with anything more than incoming call times and such. They suggested the use of a tracking app in the future. I installed it once the warranty-ed phone arrived but even with GPS assisted tracking software I found it to be horribly inaccurate.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on March 13, 2013, 07:31:44 AM
Trayvon Martin's cellphone records are important in establishing the timeline. Because Judge Lester has ruled that Florida law prohibits the release of telecommunications records, the only records we have are those (http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf) released by Crump. The records are in a rather confusing order, so I reordered them to make them easier to understand. I also tried to determine which calls were from DeeDee. I'm particularly uncertain about the calls marked with question marks, but put them with the DeeDee calls.  Both the beginning and ending times are rounded in some unknown (to me) fashion by T-Mobile. My current best guess is:

The calls and texts are:
2:13 text from Hollywood, FL
2:15 text to North Dade (DeeDee?)
2:18 text from North Dade (DeeDee?)
2:20-2:23 (3 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
2:38-4:21 (103 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)
2:45-2:47 (2 min. - to Martin from T-Mobile)
3:02-3:04 (2 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
3:04-3:07 (3 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
4:30 text from Miami, FL
4:28-5:09 (41 min. - from Martin to DeeDee)
5:09-6:30 (81 min. - from Martin to DeeDee)
6:30-6:43 (13 min. - from Martin to DeeDee)
6:41-6:44 (4 min. - to Martin from T-Mobile)
6:45-6:50 (5 min. - from Martin to DeeDee)
6:46-6:48 (2 min - from Martin to North Dade non-T-Mobile)
6:49-6:53 (4 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)
6:53-6:54 (1 min. - from Martin to North Dade T-Mobile (DeeDee?))
6:54-6:55 (1 min. - from Martin to North Dade T-Mobile (DeeDee?))
6:54-7:12 (18 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)
7:04-7:05 (1 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
7:08 text from North Dade (DeeDee?)
7:12-7:16 (4 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)

------

The possible DeeDee calls and texts are:
2:15 text to DeeDee (?)
2:18 text from DeeDee (?)
2:38-4:21 (103 min. - to Martin)
4:28-5:09 (41 min. - from Martin)
5:09-6:30 (81 min. - from Martin)
6:30-6:43 (13 min. - from Martin)
6:45-6:50 (5 min. - from Martin)
6:49-6:53 (4 min. - to Martin)
6:53-6:54 (1 min. - from Martin to North Dade T-Mobile) (?)
6:54-6:55 (1 min. - from Martin to North Dade T-Mobile) (?)
6:54-7:12 (18 min. - to Martin)
7:08 text from DeeDee (?)
7:12-7:16 (4 min. - to Martin)

The non-DeeDee calls and texts are:
2:13 text from Hollywood, FL
2:20-2:23 (3 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
2:45-2:47 (2 min. - to Martin from T-Mobile)
3:02-3:04 (2 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
3:04-3:07 (3 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)
4:30 text from Miami, FL
6:41-6:44 (4 min. - to Martin from T-Mobile)
6:46-6:48 (2 min. - from Martin to North Dade non-T-Mobile)
7:04-7:05 (1 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mobile)

------

Chad said he called Martin, and Martin told him he was on his way home. This was probably either the 4 minute T-Mobile call at 6:41 or the 1 minute non-T-Mobile call at 7:04.

------

The attribution of the text messages to DeeDee is based on this exchange from the interview by de la Rionda:

BDLR:  Again, I’m sorry to have to ask you this. Um...did...when this was going on...I’m talking about that day, February 26, did Trayvon send you any text messages?
DeeDee:  I...one...like...  [Texts at 2:15 and 2:18?]
BDLR:  You know, like, I’m going to the store, or did he ever text you and say, like, this guy’s following me, or did he just tell you that?
DeeDee: He just tell me.
BDLR:  OK, then he never texted you that...this all that you’ve told me.
DeeDee: Mmm-mmm [No].
BDLR:  Did you ever text him...during this time?
DeeDee: Like when the phone just hung up?
BDLR:  Yeah.
DeeDee: Yeah. [Text at 7:08.]

DeeDee's answer to the question of whether Martin send her a text message isn't quite clear. She could mean one text was sent in all, not that Martin sent her one.

SO if W8 was on Simple Mobile and Not T Mobile, MJW needs to put his nose to the grindstone and rework this...RIGHT NOW!
((INSERT HUGE SMILIE ICON))
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: RickyJim on March 13, 2013, 07:39:40 AM
Does the call DeeDee claimed to have made after the last listed show up in any records?  I guess it would have gone to Martin's voice mail?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 13, 2013, 06:42:20 PM
SO if W8 was on Simple Mobile and Not T Mobile, MJW needs to put his nose to the grindstone and rework this...RIGHT NOW!
((INSERT HUGE SMILIE ICON))

Simple Mobile is a T-Mobile reseller. Though I don't know for certain that Simple Mobile calls are billed as T-Mobile calls by T-Mobile, I find it very difficult to believe it's not true, but the discrepancy  hasn't been noticed by the prosecution or defense, and they proceed as if there isn't a drive-a-truck-through sized hole in DeeDee's story.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 13, 2013, 06:45:45 PM
Does the call DeeDee claimed to have made after the last listed show up in any records?  I guess it would have gone to Martin's voice mail?

I'm pretty sure voice mail calls aren't billed unless they're accessed.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: RickyJim on March 13, 2013, 06:51:41 PM
Shouldn't that call be available in the phone's internal memory?  Since it is  potentially billable, one would think the phone company itself would have a record.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 13, 2013, 06:59:19 PM
Shouldn't that call be available in the phone's internal memory?  Since it is  potentially billable, one would think the phone company itself would have a record.

Voice mail messages aren't stored in the phone. If they were, voice mail wouldn't work when the phone's turned off. They're stored at the phone company offices. T-Mobile should have a record of all the calls that went to voice mail, and the messages, also.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 13, 2013, 07:11:50 PM
Simple Mobile is a T-Mobile reseller. Though I don't know for certain that Simple Mobile calls are billed as T-Mobile calls by T-Mobile, I find it very difficult to believe it's not true, but the discrepancy  hasn't been noticed by the prosecution or defense, and they proceed as if there isn't a drive-a-truck-through sized hole in DeeDee's story.

Also, the phone number associated with the T-Mobile to T-Mobile calls is listed on the bill, and that number is associated with a Simple Mobile phone. That seems to contradict the theory that Simple Mobile calls aren't billed as T-Moble calls. (Or, I should say, weren't billed that way on Feb. 26, 2012. I seem to remember that Simple Mobile was recently bought by TracFone, so perhaps that may have changed.)
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: leftwig on March 13, 2013, 07:44:35 PM
I'm pretty sure voice mail calls aren't billed unless they're accessed.

Wouldn't Dee Dee's phone be billed for this call, or at least generate a record that the call was made? 
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 13, 2013, 07:49:52 PM
Wouldn't Dee Dee's phone be billed for this call, or at least generate a record that the call was made?

I'm quite certain it would.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 14, 2013, 12:50:06 AM
I tried some Google searches to find something saying Simple Mobile calls are treated as T-Mobile calls for T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile billing purposes. I didn't find anything. That doesn't prove they aren't, but it certainly makes me doubt they are, since that would be a valuable property to Simple Mobile users and would be worth mentioning.

I'm not sure what to think about DeeDee's Simple Mobile account and Martin's T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile calls. I can't come up with an explanation that fits the known (or at least seemingly known) facts.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 14, 2013, 12:57:57 AM
I'm not sure what to think about DeeDee's Simple Mobile account and Martin's T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile calls. I can't come up with an explanation that fits the known (or at least seemingly known) facts.

What about the one you suggested earlier, that Simple Mobile calls were billed as T-Mobile before Simple Mobile changed ownership?

If the phone records showed that W-8's phone wasn't the one connected to Martin's in his last minutes, I think we would have heard by now.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 14, 2013, 01:30:32 AM
What about the one you suggested earlier, that Simple Mobile calls were billed as T-Mobile before Simple Mobile changed ownership?

If the phone records showed that W-8's phone wasn't the one connected to Martin's in his last minutes, I think we would have heard by now.

That still seems like the most likely theory, but I would have expected that it would have been mentioned in old information or old comments about Simple Mobile. I found promotional information going back to when Simple Mobile started out.

I agree it seems exceptionally unlikely such an obvious thing would have escaped notice. What do we make of BDLR's questioning of DeeDee, asking if T-Mobile was her carrier, when earlier that day he'd been told the phone was registered to Simple Mobile? The whole thing has me confused.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 14, 2013, 01:45:36 AM
Let me add that I fully expected it would be easy to confirm Simple Mobile calls were treated as T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile. I was quite surprised when I couldn't find any evidence they were.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 14, 2013, 01:57:01 AM
What do we make of BDLR's questioning of DeeDee, asking if T-Mobile was her carrier, when earlier that day he'd been told the phone was registered to Simple Mobile?

Do we know that de la Rionda was briefed on the records before the interview? Maybe he was too busy.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on March 14, 2013, 02:33:13 AM
Do we know that de la Rionda was briefed on the records before the interview? Maybe he was too busy.

If the subpoena for the records extents through 4/2/12, that would suggest that he requested them before leaving for Miami on his noon flight.  Just IMO.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 14, 2013, 02:43:44 AM
If the subpoena for the records extents through 4/2/12, that would suggest that he requested them before leaving for Miami on his noon flight.

I'm sorry, I don't follow the logic of that.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: DebFrmHell on March 14, 2013, 07:56:26 AM
I'm sorry, I don't follow the logic of that.

They were in Miami around 1-1:30pm.  They didn't start interviewing until around 3:30 when they questioned Sybrina Fulton.  4:30 for Tracy Martin.  It took until 6:30 to get W8 to where she was supposed to be.

Unless they got the records emailed/faxed to them while they were already in Miami and at the last second there should have been some kind of prep time.  Who can tell?  Maybe BDLR had a "Oh, horsepoopies!" moment when he realized that he may actually need them just before he boarded the plane.

To think otherwise would indicate TO ME that he really was lackadaisical about what he needed to ask her or that he didn't feel he needed to have that information prior.  ((shrugs))
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 14, 2013, 02:06:52 PM
If the subpoena for the records extents through 4/2/12, that would suggest that he requested them before leaving for Miami on his noon flight.  Just IMO.

According to page 83 of the 284 page PDF, the subpoena was issued on Apr. 2, and the result obtained at around 12:10 p.m. on the same day. BDLR would have had plenty of time to review the information before interviewing W8. The timing of the subpoena, along with the fact that the information was requested in an expedited manner,  suggests the subpoena was issued in preparation for the interview. Also, in the morning of  Apr. 2, the investigator contacted the Simple Mobile subpoena compliance officer. Obviously they had to know beforehand that the phone was associated with Simple Mobile.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 15, 2013, 02:54:54 AM
Also, in the morning of  Apr. 2, the investigator contacted the Simple Mobile subpoena compliance officer. Obviously they had to know beforehand that the phone was associated with Simple Mobile.

Which means de la Rionda could have been informed earlier as well.

I don't want to beat up on you. I'm just trying to get the facts straight in my own head.

This is what you said up-thread.

What do we make of BDLR's questioning of DeeDee, asking if T-Mobile was her carrier, when earlier that day he'd been told the phone was registered to Simple Mobile?

Just so I'm clear, this was a conjecture? You don't know of a record to that effect?
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 15, 2013, 12:28:49 PM
ust so I'm clear, this was a conjecture? You don't know of a record to that effect?

I assumed that if the SAO received the results of a subpoena to Simple Mobile prior to BDLR interviewing W8, BDLR would be made aware of it. That seems to me to be a completely reasonable assumption. You could respond that, as I observed previously, the fact they knew to contact Simple Mobile may indicate BDLR knew earlier. I hadn't considered that when I made my original comment, but it doesn't affect the point that BDLR would seem to have known W8's provider wasn't T-Mobile.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: TalkLeft on March 15, 2013, 07:21:03 PM
Here is the report (http://talkleft.com/zimm/april2cellphonesubp.pdf) on the phone records which were requested and received on April 2.  They came in at 12:10 p.m. These were the only records (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/w8records.jpg) of W-8 obtained by that time. (The juvenile reference pertains to Trayvon as the subject of the investigation, not Witness 8. That disclosure seems to be on most of the reports.)

Bernie arrived in Miami at 12:30 pm  (http://talkleft.com/zimm/april2berniearrives.pdf)so he hadn't seen the records. (His arrival time had been estimated at 10:40 a.m.) The records  were on an exel spreadsheet and there's no mention of him going anyplace other than Sybrina's where he could receive a multi-page fax. He probably obtained a description over the phone. He may not have known the difference between Simple Mobile and T-Mobile.

Simple Mobile uses the T-Mobile network (http://www.mysimplemobile.com/simple-mobile-101/why-simple-mobile.aspx).

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SIMPLE Mobile runs on T-Mobile's nationwide network. Yeah, we said it. We combine this world-class network with our low overhead to offer cutting-edge service at a great price
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 15, 2013, 09:19:54 PM
Simple Mobile uses the T-Mobile network (http://www.mysimplemobile.com/simple-mobile-101/why-simple-mobile.aspx).

It doesn't necessarily (or even likely) follow that Simple Mobile calls would count as T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile calls. The T-Mobile terms of service (http://www.t-mobile.com/Templates/Popup.aspx?PAsset=Ftr_Ftr_TermsAndConditions&print=true) say: "T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile calls are those made between T-Mobile customers using their Devices while on the T-Mobile network." The section saying T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile calls are "those made between T-Mobile customers" would be unnecessary if being on the T-Mobile network were enough. I tried to find some evidence T-Mobile to Simple Mobile calls were billed as T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile, and didn't find any.

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He may not have known the difference between Simple Mobile and T-Mobile.

I think BDLR probably can tell "Simple" from "T." I think someone who's not tech savvy would be less likely to confuse the two, because they wouldn't know that Simple Mobile is a T-Mobile reseller.

All and all, I think T-Mobile to Simple Mobile calls did get billed as T-Mobile-to-T-Mobile, only because that seems the least unlikely of unlikely alternatives.
Title: Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
Post by: MJW on March 16, 2013, 01:02:16 AM
A Mar. 15, 2013 comment from ftsk420 on Rumpole's RandomTopics blog:

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Ok just got off the phone with T Mobile and calls from Simple Mobile do show up as T Mobile to T Mobile.