TalkLeft Discussion Forums

George Zimmerman Trial Coverage => Trial Expectations => Topic started by: RickyJim on July 05, 2013, 09:18:21 PM

Title: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 05, 2013, 09:18:21 PM
One thing I think I understand better after the last two weeks of testimony is the game Zimmerman and Martin were playing against each other from the first sighting at Taaffe's house up to their meeting at the T when things got deadly serious.  Here are their moves which I think are clear from the evidence.

1. Zimmerman stops his Ridgeline near his friend Frank Taaffe’s house to watch Martin loitering in the rainy darkness. He heads away towards the the clubhouse to call the cops.
2. Instead of taking the quick diagonal shortcut by the lake, to get to his father’s girlfriend’s house, Martin follows Zimmerman to the clubhouse and passes close to the truck, checking the creepyass cracker out and tugging at his waistband. Martin then turns into Twin Trees Lane in the direction of home.
3. While still on the phone with the police dispatcher, Zimmerman decides to follow Martin on TTL. He loses sight of him and stops the Ridgeline some feet from a cut through between TTL and Retreat View Circle with headlights on, pointing into the cut through.
4. Martin comes out of the darkness and circles the truck. Zimmerman is too frightened to open his window and say anything to him. Martin runs into the cut through and turns right into a dog walk leading to the back of his destination. However Zimmerman thinks he is heading for the back entrance.
5. Instead of waiting for the cops to come and search the area, as he had done previously when sighting suspicious persons, Zimmerman gets out of the truck and heads into the cut through. He has never adequately explained his reasons.  We all know the outline of the rest and the how their game ended.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 05, 2013, 10:14:20 PM
Zimmerman stops his Ridgeline near his friend Frank Taaffe’s house to watch Martin loitering in the rainy darkness.

I don't know of any evidence that GZ stopped. He said he slowed down because someone was backing out in front of him (SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/29-1, 8:19).

Quote
However Zimmerman thinks he is heading for the back entrance.

I don't think GZ said that. On the NEN call, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw#t=02m08s) GZ referred to the back entrance to indicate the direction TM was heading. He didn't speculate on where TM intended to go. (2:08)

I don't think GZ mentioned the back entrance at all in his SPD Interviews, (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) including the reenactment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) and the CVSA. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI)
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: TalkLeft on July 06, 2013, 12:19:52 AM
This is speculation and not evidence. I have moved it from the Evidence thread.   It also contains some interpretative rather than factual assessments.

You can also use this thread to post other theories on the trial and evidence,.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 06, 2013, 08:45:06 AM
I don't know of any evidence that GZ stopped. He said he slowed down because someone was backing out in front of him (SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/29-1, 8:19).


I infer that he stopped from Jeantel's testimony and Martin's subsequent known behavior.  There had to be a period of Zimmerman starring at Martin of sufficient length to annoy the latter.

Quote
I don't think GZ said that. On the NEN call, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw#t=02m08s) GZ referred to the back entrance to indicate the direction TM was heading. He didn't speculate on where TM intended to go. (2:08)

I don't think GZ mentioned the back entrance at all in his SPD Interviews, (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) including the reenactment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) and the CVSA. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI)
I think I remember a point in the CVSA interview in which Zimmerman said he didn't think it was dangerous to walk in the cut through to RVC because "they always run away" or something to that effect.  I thought we were in agreement that his motivation in going to RVC was because of the streetlamp, near the intersection with TTL, which illuminated the way to the back exit.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: unitron on July 06, 2013, 09:46:19 AM


...There had to be a period of Zimmerman starring at Martin of sufficient length to annoy the latter.

Since Martin was a teenager, about 1 second would have been sufficient.

I think I remember a point in the CVSA interview in which Zimmerman said he didn't think it was dangerous to walk in the cut through to RVC because "they always run away" or something to that effect.  I thought we were in agreement that his motivation in going to RVC was because of the streetlamp, near the intersection with TTL, which illuminated the way to the back exit.

TTL and RVC do not intersect anywhere near where Zimmerman allegedly walked across from TTL to RVC.

Do you mean a streetlight down near where TTL crossed RVC south of Brandy Green's house?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 06, 2013, 10:08:24 AM
NMNM has posted a picture of the streetlamp near where RVC meets TTL near the back entrance.  I trust he will post it again when he sees this.  That area would certainly be visible from the RVC end of the cut through.  On a related matter, Officer Tim Smith testified that after he entered TRATL through the main entrance, he followed TTL around to the south end of the dog walk and pointed his headlights north and was able to make out two figures (Zimmerman and Manalo) near the T.  Then he parked near the cut through on RVC to enter the shooting area.  I guess he knew the complex pretty well.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: unitron on July 06, 2013, 10:16:14 AM
Thanks, RJ , that's much more clear.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 06, 2013, 10:27:38 AM
Streetlight, TTL and RVC near back gate.

Google Earth street view (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8532161769/in/set-72157631083078146)

Google Earth overhead (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8533077778/in/set-72157631083078146)

For evidence that the shadow in the yellow oval is characteristic of streetlights, check out the whole photoset. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157631083078146/)

Enlarge a photo by left clicking. Right click for a menu.

Officer Tim Smith testified that . . . he parked near the cut through on RVC to enter the shooting area.

I thought he parked in front of W-19's unit, 2821 RVC. That's five units south of the cut through.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: leftwig on July 06, 2013, 12:44:49 PM
I think Zimmerman started the physical confrontation.  The sole reason I think this is because Martin was on the phone.  I can imagine Martin asking "Why are you following me?" -- but I think Zimmerman was the one to escalate it at that point. 
 

Define "started the physical confrontation".   I understand GZ was around 200 lbs and TM around 160, but GZ was 5'7.5" and TM 6'2" ish (based on 711 clerk being 5'10" and TMs parents saying he was 6'2"-6'3").  TM was wearing baggy clothes and a couple of sweatshirts and as seen in the 7-11 video didn't look like a skinny kid.  I don't see that GZ being that much smaller looking than TM would have started anything with him.  Also, GZ had plenty of opportunities to start something with him.  He could have done it at Taffe's, probably by the clubhouse and probably along TTL, but he didn't.  Instead, he rolled up his window and calmly talked with Sean.  I don't see that GZ gave any indication he was interested in starting something with TM. 

I do think he wanted to do what he could to make sure TM didn't get away before police arrived.  I think he got out of his vehicle to try and keep an eye on him.  I think he loitered around the 'T' mainly to see if TM would reveal himself again.  I do believe he eventually went to get that address on RVC, but it wasn't while on the call with Sean.  I think TM surprised him as he was walking back along the 'T'.  I think whether you believe the wording of the conversation as presented by W8 or GZ, it was TM that initiated the confrontation and was the aggressor.  I think W8 did hear some bumping and movement, but had no idea who was doing what. 

Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 06, 2013, 05:17:30 PM
I thought he parked in front of W-19's unit, 2821 RVC. That's five units south of the cut through.
That's right.  Ofc. Smith originally was given 1231 Twin Trees (Lauer?) when when he got there an update said to go to 2821 RVC.  To correct something I said before.  He used the spotlight on the top of his car to illuminate the dog path area between the houses while on TTL.  He didn't need to point the headlights into it.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 06, 2013, 10:57:10 PM
After all is said and done, the fighting and other character references for both individuals are not going to be allowed.  The State ginger-footed around by just asking for the Voice ID.  That narrowed the scope for response by The Defense.

The state already got in GZ's "MMA training." That should at least allow in Martin's fighting experiance.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: leftwig on July 07, 2013, 09:17:31 AM
   

Rachel said he started it.  He says TM started it.  Both are liars but I believe her more since she made the "closet" statement. 



After Rachel testified that GZ "started it" she admitted that the sounds she heard could have been 1000 different things.  She has no idea who started it because she wasn't there and didn't see it.  She believes GZ started it, even though she states TM confronted verbally first.  I am not sure how much we can believe GZ since its human nature to want to protect your hide, but I don't believe Rachael has any idea who made the first physical move.  I see no evidence that GZ started the physical confrontation.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Lousy1 on July 07, 2013, 12:08:50 PM
It seems RJ (Dee Dee was quite accomplished at embellishing details to support her fabrications

From BDLR Interview  http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/deedeestatetranscript.pdf (http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/deedeestatetranscript.pdf)

BDLR: Were you able to go to the funeral or to the wake?
Dee Dee: I was goin’ to go, but…
BDLR: OK, what happened?
Dee Dee: I didn’ feel good.
BDLR: OK, did you end up going to the hospital or somewhere?
Dee Dee: Mmmm…Yeah, I had high blood pressure.

r perhaps you think she could forget going to the hospital and missing the wake and funeral more easily than one could forget a brief digression from the course work four years earlier?

Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MikeB on July 07, 2013, 01:21:23 PM
When someone lies to me a couple of times I stop trusting them. Especially when they say "trust me".

What I find strange is that many of these people's stories have "evolved". George Zimmerman's hasn't.

What do you think the TM defenders's reaction would be if GZ refused to talk with anybody for two weeks, and instead of talking to the police, went to his lawyer first - as Rachel has done. It's an incredible double standard.

Further, had GZ gotten every detail correct, his detractors would have accused him of repeating a scripted narrative because it's simply not plausible to get every detail correct.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Evil Chinchilla on July 07, 2013, 01:42:45 PM
She told white lies.

Only if you dismiss them as such. Some of us, however, expect the prosecution's star witness who connects all the dots to be exactly as described and 100% truthful.

Much of the rest of her story can be confirmed with GZ's story:  the rain, the mailboxes, "he ran," etc.

Yeah, the parts that were already available to Ben Crump and the public prior to her first testimony on 3/19/12.

Hell, I could've told the same story RJ did on 3/19/12, based on what I knew from media accounts and what I knew Crump needed to press the case forward.

However, I would've stuck to the script a lot better than she did.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Lousy1 on July 07, 2013, 02:11:05 PM


Hell, I could've told the same story RJ did on 3/19/12, based on what I knew from media accounts and what I knew Crump needed to press the case forward.

However, I would've stuck to the script a lot better than she did.

I would love to be a fly on the wall for the phone interview. I envision a Crump representative penning note after note in cursive while gesticulating wildly.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 07, 2013, 02:37:39 PM
That's right.  Ofc. Smith originally was given 1231 Twin Trees (Lauer?)

Lauer was 1211 TTL. 1231 TTL was W-3. The third digit is the number of the unit, counting from the north on TTL.

It goes the other way, south to north, on the part of RVC opposite that part of TTL. So W-19 was 2821, and the Manalos were 2861. Brandy Green was 2631, the middle unit of a 5 unit building, two buildings south of the 28X1 building.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: TalkLeft on July 07, 2013, 02:41:40 PM
Jujube has been banned for impermissible character attacks on Zimmerman (his weight) and other reasons. Her objectionable comments in this thread have been deleted, as have comments quoting the objectionable portions of her comments or responding with similar impermissible attacks on the other side.

The judge has ruled the text messages on Martin's phone are inadmissible. Same for his suspension and school records and marijuana use prior to Feb. 26.  See her order of June 5, 2013 (http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Order_on_States_Motions_in_Limine.pdf) on the state's motion in limine, which is the written ruling on the matters addressed on May 28.

She reserved ruling on whether Martin's alleged history of fighting, use of social media and use of marijuana on Feb. 26. can come in.

The video on his phone was not admitted into evidence.

Your theories must be based on the evidence presented at trial. That is what the jury will be deciding the case on. If the defense succeeds in admitting evidence previously ruled inadmissible or on which she reserved ruling, it can be brought up then.

These are trial forums. Your theories must be based on the evidence presented at trial. The state's case is over (except for rebuttal.) The defense has only presented two witnesses so far.

Character attacks based on inadmissible evidence against either side are not allowed here.



Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 07, 2013, 06:35:48 PM

What I find strange is that many of these people's stories have "evolved". George Zimmerman's hasn't.

I don't agree.

My opinion is that George Zimmerman's story has evolved in more ways than I will be able to enumerate before this day is over. But I will do my best.

Non-emergency Call, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw#t=01m57s) 1:57
Quote
Zimmerman: No. You go in, straight through the entrance, and then you make a left. You go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Sh*t. He's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down toward the other entrance to the neighborhood.

In two days of questioning, 2/26-27, George Zimmerman did not admit to seeing Trayvon Martin run. On the first day, he would not admit to seeing TM heading 'down toward the other entrance to the neighborhood' at any pace.

SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/26-1
Quote
Singleton: Is he walking completely around the car?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: OK.
Zimmerman: And, dispatch asked me where he went. I didn't know the name of the street that I was on.
Singleton: So you had come off your street and gotten to another street - 
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: - at some point? OK.
Zimmerman: Goes in, cuts in, through the middle of my neighborhood.
Singleton: OK.
Zimmerman: I didn't know the name of the street, or where he went.
Zimmerman: So I got out of my car, to look for a street sign, and to see if I could see where he cut through so that I could tell the police [crosstalk].

SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/26-2, 3:36
Quote
Singleton: OK. Is he circling your car?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: Are you still on the phone -
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: - with the dispatch? OK. Are you giving them a description or anything -
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: - of what's going on? OK. Where does he go where you lose sight of him again?
Zimmerman: He walked back into the darkness here.
Singleton: He went there? OK.
Zimmerman: And, sorry.
Singleton: He walks back in here?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: Does he make the turn? Does he go - ? 
Zimmerman: I don't know.
Singleton: You don't know. By the time he gets here you can't see him?
Zimmerman: Correct.

Written Statement, 2/26/12, (http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/40ZK_written_statement_0226.pdf) pp. 1-2
Quote
I told the dispatcher what I had witnessed, the dispatcher took note of my location & the suspect fled to a darkened area of the sidewalk, as the dispatcher was asking me for an exact location the suspect emerged from the darkness & circled my vehicle.

The suspect once again disappeared between the [illegible]  of some houses.

Reenactment, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4#t=03m46s) 3:46
Quote
Zimmerman: And then he came back, and he started walking up towards the grass, and then came down and circled my car. And I told the operator that. He was circling my car. I didn't hear if he said anything-
Sgt. Smith: Right.
Zimmerman: -but he had his hand in his waistband. 
Sgt. Smith: Mmhmm.
Zimmerman: And I, I, I think I told the operator that. And, they said "Where are you?" And I could not remember the name of the street.
Sgt. Smith: Mmhmm.
Zimmerman: Because I don't live on this street.
Sgt. Smith: Right.
Zimmerman: Retreat View Circle goes in a circle.
Sgt. Smith: Right.
Zimmerman: And I said "I can't, I don't know." And he goes, "We need an address." And I said, "I don't know an address." I think I gave them my address. And they said, "Give us directions to get to you." And I said, "If you tell the police to go straight at the clubhouse, and make a left, my truck will be there." And again they asked me where he went and what direction he went in. And I said "I don't know."

CVSA, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI#t=28m41s) 28:41
Quote
And I got out of my car to look for a street sign, so that I could at least tell them what street I was on. And, there was no street sign, and I couldn't make out the house in front of me because there was a big pickup truck there. So, I knew if I, I saw him walk through the cut-through, and then make a right, behind other houses.

Later in the CVSA interview, GZ would admit that his headlights illuminated the cut-through, which he had claimed was in darkness in his earlier interviews and written statement.

CVSA, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI#t=39m48s) 39:48
Quote
Erwin: Why did you try to maintain such close proximity to him?
Zimmerman: To tell the police where he, what direction he was headed in.
Erwin: Didn't you feel like you were putting yourself in danger?
Zimmerman: No. Because I, where I was parked, my headlights were lighting, illuminating. And, I saw him turn, down, and by the time I was on the phone with the non-emergency, by the time I got to where he was at, I felt like he had already made his way.

After two more days, on 2/29/12, Singleton confronted GZ with his own statement that TM ran. GZ's response is interesting. He did not struggle to remember, nor claim memory loss. He just admitted the truth, immediately and effortlessly.

SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/29-1, 22:46
Quote
Singleton: Then, then, does, do you say he ran?
Zimmerman: Yes.

Later that day, Serino asked GZ for more detail.

SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/29-3, 5:40
Quote
Serino: OK. Full sprint? Full on flight? Jogging? Trotting? Describe the run.
Zimmerman: I don't remember. I just, because I was on the phone. It happened so quickly.
Serino: Well, I understand that, George, but, like I said, it's, if it was a bicycle theft I could say "OK", but, it's kind of important. I mean, was he running as to evade you, get away from you, maybe got tired of getting wet in the rain. What kind of run was it? I mean, it sounds like he's running as to, get away from you.
Zimmerman: I don't know why he was running.
Serino: But what kind of run was it? Can't say?
Zimmerman: I don't remember.
Serino: OK.

Sean Hannity Interview, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGB72I9B8Sc#t=07m00s) 7:00
Quote
Zimmerman: Maybe I said running, but he was more -
Hannity: You said he's running.
Zimmerman: Yes. He was like skipping, going away quickly. But he wasn't running out of fear.
Hannity: You could tell the difference?
Zimmerman: He wasn't running.

GZ's story went from TM running, to TM walking, to TM running in a manner and for a motive on which GZ could say nothing, to TM 'like, skipping', to TM maybe running but not 'out of fear', to TM definitely not running.

More to come.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 07, 2013, 10:44:42 PM
Continuing with my opinions on the evolution of George Zimmerman's story.

SPD Interviews (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

Written Statement (http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/40ZK_written_statement_0226.pdf) (2/26W)

Reenactment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) (2/27R)

CVSA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI) (2/27V)

In the SPD interviews, Zimmerman's reasons for being suspicious of Martin were discussed at least five times, and mentioned briefly in his written statement. He gave at least ten reasons.

:: Martin was walking 'leisurely' and 'casually', not appearing to be trying to get out of the rain. (2/26-1, 4:08-4:47; 2/26-1, 10:25-52; 2/26W; 2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/27V, 25:36-26:28, 6:44:13-45:05; 2/29-1, 8:03-53; 2/29-3, 0:51-1:18)

:: Martin was walking on the grass, not on the sidewalk. (2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/29-1, 8:03-53)

:: Zimmerman didn't recognize Martin. (2/26-1, 4:08-4:47; 2/27R, 0:00-1:35)

:: Martin was 'looking around', 'kept staring around him', or 'kept shifting where he was looking.' (2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/27V, 25:36-26:28, 6:44:13-45:05; 2/29-3, 1:32-41)

:: Martin looked at Zimmeran, or 'kept looking' or 'kept staring' at him. (2/26-1, 4:08-4:47; 2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/29-1, 8:03-53; 2/29-3, 0:51-1:18)

:: Martin was 'looking at all the houses', or 'looking into the houses.' (2/26-1, 4:08-4:47; 2/26-1, 10:25-52; 2/26W; 2/29-3, 0:51-1:18)

:: Martin was walking in front of, or looking at, or looking into, 1460 RVC, where Zimmerman had previously called in a suspicious person. (2/26-1, 10:25-52; 2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/29-1, 4:21-5:23; 2/29-1, 7:41-54; 2/29-1, 8:03-53) That person was later arrested for burglarizing a nearby house. (2/29-1, 7:18-40)

:: Martin stopped in front of 1460 RVC. (2/27R, 0:00-1:35; 2/29-1, 8:03-53)

:: Zimmerman knew Martin didn't live at 1460 RVC. (2/27V, 25:36-26:28, 6:44:13-45:05; 2/29-1, 4:21-5:23)

:: There had been 'a history of break-ins' at a house near 1460 RVC. (2/27R, 0:00-1:35)

Sean Hannity Interview, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGB72I9B8Sc#t=04m05s) 4:05
Quote
I felt he was suspicious because it was raining. He was in between houses, cutting in between houses. He was walking very leisurely for the weather.

Martin walking 'leisurely' and 'casually' in the rain, may have been the most frequently mentioned reason for suspicion in the SPD interviews. I don't believe that Martin being 'in between houses, cutting in between houses', was ever mentioned in this connection in the SPD interviews, including the reenactment and the CVSA, or in Zimmerman's written statement for the SPD.

In the reenactment, Sgt. Smith asked Zimmerman if Martin was between houses (0:07-0:21).
Quote
Sgt. Smith: And, what was he, was walking in between the buildings, or - ?

Zimmerman: He was walking like in the grassy area, like, up towards, kinda between these two poles. Like I said, it was rainy. And he wasn't, he was just leisurely looking at the house.

Zimmerman did speak of losing sight of Martin between houses (2/26-1, 10:59-11:17).

He seems to have meant the cut-through. At the earliest, it was after Martin walked past his truck in the clubhouse parking lot, where Zimmerman had parked for the purpose of calling in his suspicions.

That will have to do for today. I need to get some sleep before court starts tomorrow.

More to come.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 07, 2013, 10:55:12 PM
NMNM is on a mission.  He is a happy man!!!   8)

Making my OCD look better day after day.

 ;)
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 07, 2013, 11:46:37 PM
NMNM is on a mission.  He is a happy man!!!   8)

Making my OCD look better day after day.

 ;)

I seem to recall you in the cheering section when I went after Jeantel, (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2022.msg106911.html#msg106911) known to us then as W-8 and 'DeeDee'.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 08, 2013, 06:08:19 AM
NM, shouldn't these posts be stand alone in a thread of their own?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 08, 2013, 07:05:31 AM
5'11" 158 LBS.  TM's size at the time of autopsy.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 16, 2013, 04:39:30 PM
What I find strange is that many of these people's stories have "evolved". George Zimmerman's hasn't.

I hoped I would have time to post a few more responses to this before the trial was over. But I always knew the series wouldn't be done by then, that is, now. I knew that by the time I completed it, the matter might well be of only historical interest. But I have always been more of a history buff than a trial buff. My intention was, and is, to complete the series.

I originally intended to do this chronologically. I overlooked some points, and so I am backtracking a bit. The points I am taking up in this post are, I now think, where I should have begun.

Non-emergency Call, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw#t=00m17s) 0:17-25

Quote
Zimmerman: This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining, and he's just walking around, looking about.

This was all the explanation GZ gave the NEN dispatcher for why he called TM in as suspicious person.

Later in the NEN call, GZ would say of TM: 'He's here now, and he's just staring, looking at all the houses.' (0:41) To me the 'here now' suggests an update, not additional explanation for GZ making the call over half a minute earlier.

Contrary to some early reports, GZ was not questioned at the shooting scene, except for Ofc. Smith asking who shot TM.

From Surdyka's 911 call, it seems Smith led GZ away from the scene about 7:23 PM, about 6 minutes after the gunshot.

SFD pronounced TM dead about 7:30, and went to attend to GZ. All of them were asked by FDLE what questions were put to GZ, and what statements he made. They said questions were asked and answered to assess GZ's condition, but he was not asked how he got his injuries, and he made no statements about what had happened.

Ofc. Smith testified that driving time from RATL to the SPD station is 'roughly 15 minutes' (Video, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrkK-Q4Mpr8#t=18m10s) 18:10).

Smith's supplemental report (15/184 (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf)), says that en route they spoke about how GZ felt, and that GZ declined an offer to be taken to a hospital.

Smith testified that GZ was in an interview room, waiting for Singleton, for 30 to 40 minutes (27:43).

These observations are consistent with Smith's supplemental report, while being more specific on the time. 

Quote
I also made contact with Zimmerman every 15-20 minutes (approximately) to check his status . . .


A few minutes into the interview, GZ for the first time told Singleton why he reported TM as suspicious. 

SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/26-1, 4:10-26
Quote
Zimmerman: This gentleman in particular? I had never seen him in the neighborhood. I know all the residents. It was raining out, and he was leisurely walking, taking his time, looking at all the houses.

Singleton: OK.

Zimmerman: When I drove by he stopped and looked at me.

TM 'looking at all the houses', has been moved from 40 seconds into the call, to before GZ decided to make the call. TM being a stranger to the neighborhood appears for the first time, as does his stopping when GZ drove by.

GZ was repeating that TM didn't seem to be trying to get out of the rain when Singleton's phone beeped. Singleton had to fetch GZ's phone, so he could get contact information related to the RATL security cameras. Then she left the room again, I assume to return the phone to where it was being kept. GZ seems to have been alone when Singleton was out of the room. No voices are heard during those interludes.

The first time, GZ was alone for less than half a minute, about 6:38 to 7:02. The second time, it was about a minute and a half, from about 8:07 to 9:38.

During these interludes, GZ seems to have had a flash of memory or imagination. After the second, he would say for the first time that TM, when GZ first saw him, was in front of a residence with a history.

10:25-52
Quote
Zimmerman: And this time, I was leaving to go to the grocery store. And like I said, I saw him walking in the neighborhood, the same, in front of the same house that I had called the police before, to come to because this guy leaves his doors unlocked and stuff. And he was walking leisurely and looking at the houses, and, so I just pulled my car to the side. And I called the non-emergency line.

More to come.

All of the above is my opinions.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 16, 2013, 11:18:27 PM
I hoped I would have time to post a few more responses to this before the trial was over. But I always knew the series wouldn't be done by then, that is, now. I knew that by the time I completed it, the matter might well be of only historical interest. But I have always been more of a history buff than a trial buff. My intention was, and is, to complete the series.

I originally intended to do this chronologically. I overlooked some points, and so I am backtracking a bit. The points I am taking up in this post are, I now think, where I should have begun.

Non-emergency Call, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw#t=00m17s) 0:17-25

This was all the explanation GZ gave the NEN dispatcher for why he called TM in as suspicious person.

Later in the NEN call, GZ would say of TM: 'He's here now, and he's just staring, looking at all the houses.' (0:41) To me the 'here now' suggests an update, not additional explanation for GZ making the call over half a minute earlier.

Contrary to some early reports, GZ was not questioned at the shooting scene, except for Ofc. Smith asking who shot TM.

From Surdyka's 911 call, it seems Smith led GZ away from the scene about 7:23 PM, about 6 minutes after the gunshot.

SFD pronounced TM dead about 7:30, and went to attend to GZ. All of them were asked by FDLE what questions were put to GZ, and what statements he made. They said questions were asked and answered to assess GZ's condition, but he was not asked how he got his injuries, and he made no statements about what had happened.

Ofc. Smith testified that driving time from RATL to the SPD station is 'roughly 15 minutes' (Video, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrkK-Q4Mpr8#t=18m10s) 18:10).

Smith's supplemental report (15/184 (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf)), says that en route they spoke about how GZ felt, and that GZ declined an offer to be taken to a hospital.

Smith testified that GZ was in an interview room, waiting for Singleton, for 30 to 40 minutes (27:43).

These observations are consistent with Smith's supplemental report, while being more specific on the time. 
 

A few minutes into the interview, GZ for the first time told Singleton why he reported TM as suspicious. 

SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/26-1, 4:10-26
TM 'looking at all the houses', has been moved from 40 seconds into the call, to before GZ decided to make the call. TM being a stranger to the neighborhood appears for the first time, as does his stopping when GZ drove by.

GZ was repeating that TM didn't seem to be trying to get out of the rain when Singleton's phone beeped. Singleton had to fetch GZ's phone, so he could get contact information related to the RATL security cameras. Then she left the room again, I assume to return the phone to where it was being kept. GZ seems to have been alone when Singleton was out of the room. No voices are heard during those interludes.

The first time, GZ was alone for less than half a minute, about 6:38 to 7:02. The second time, it was about a minute and a half, from about 8:07 to 9:38.

During these interludes, GZ seems to have had a flash of memory or imagination. After the second, he would say for the first time that TM, when GZ first saw him, was in front of a residence with a history.

10:25-52
More to come.

All of the above is my opinions.

Quote
about 6:38 to 7:02

Did you mean these times or off by an hour?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 17, 2013, 02:26:03 AM
The first time, GZ was alone for less than half a minute, about 6:38 to 7:02. The second time, it was about a minute and a half, from about 8:07 to 9:38.

Did you mean these times or off by an hour?

DFH, it's bad internet form to quote a whole post, especially a long one, to respond on a single point.

That isn't clock time in hours and minutes. It's time from the beginning of the recording, in minutes and seconds. So 6:38 to 7:02 is 'less than half a minute', and 8:07 to 9:38 is 'about a minute and a half'.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 17, 2013, 06:44:24 AM
NMNM, where do you think GZ was when the NEN call starts? I still think he was parked at the spot where he ultimately left his truck. He's describing things that already happened and he's describing TM's behavior as it was happening as GZ was talking to the dispatcher. This would explain the inconsistant verb tenses.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 17, 2013, 07:00:28 AM
NMNM, where do you think GZ was when the NEN call starts?

I don't know. I think he might have been parked at the clubhouse at 0:00 on the recording. If so, I think he must have started backing out within a few seconds. I've never been able to make sense of the timeline on the assumption that GZ was still parked at the clubhouse any later than that.

That GZ was already parked on TTL, and never moved the truck during the time the call was recording, is also quite possible in my opinion.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 17, 2013, 07:14:42 AM
My opinion only; GZ passed TM at least once then waited for TM to approach from behind. To me, it seems like what GZ is describing during the NEN call and it seemed like a a comon opinion on WAGIST, which was the first blog that really started to question the scenario put forth by the PR machine.(the blog which first posted the map of TRATL and the blog which put a stopwatch to the NEN call.)
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 17, 2013, 08:37:01 AM
Not a theory but a question.  At one point Serino asked GZ how visible his pistol was typically.
GZ answered that it was very visible at all and that he often shopped at Wal mart and no one ever noticed his pistol. Why didn't the state jump on that one?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Evil Chinchilla on July 17, 2013, 10:22:31 AM
Wouldn't the outdoors, post-sunset light levels during the incident preclude the same level of visibility of a holstered gun on a carrier's hip as what would be experienced inside a brightly-lit Walmart?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 17, 2013, 07:09:45 PM
I don't know. I think he might have been parked at the clubhouse at 0:00 on the recording. If so, I think he must have started backing out within a few seconds. I've never been able to make sense of the timeline on the assumption that GZ was still parked at the clubhouse any later than that.

That GZ was already parked on TTL, and never moved the truck during the time the call was recording, is also quite possible in my opinion.
The way I read the transcript, Zimmerman is at the clubhouse at the start and observing Martin who had come from Taaffe's house.  At around 1:00 Martin approaches Zimmerman's car to check the CAC out and keeps moving to TTL.  At 1:45 Zimmerman is approaching or at the cut through.
I think Martin stalked Zimmerman from Taaffe's house to the clubhouse.  That is my interpretation of the information at the start of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNUHIAVWJG0).  Taaffe is adamant that somebody staying at Brandi Green's house would, especially in the rain, cut by the lake to get there from his house.  See the blue paths when you move the video to 16:50.  (Knechel is mistaken when he says Taafe claimed the red path is the shortest.)  Zimmerman must have fired up Martin's adolescent lust for battle when he slowed down or stopped to observe Martin at Taafe's place; he could have completely avoided the guy in the truck by going the short route which was only possible on foot. 
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 17, 2013, 10:30:43 PM
Not a theory but a question.  At one point Serino asked GZ how visible his pistol was typically.
GZ answered that it was very visible at all and that he often shopped at Wal mart and no one ever noticed his pistol. Why didn't the state jump on that one?

I assume you meant, "GZ answered that it wasn't very visible at all..." I'm guessing autocorrect chopped off the end, as it seems to like to do to mistyped contractions.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 07:20:33 AM
I assume you meant, "GZ answered that it wasn't very visible at all..." I'm guessing autocorrect chopped off the end, as it seems to like to do to mistyped contractions.

That is what I meant. Ham fisted typist is what I am.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 07:24:37 AM
Wouldn't the outdoors, post-sunset light levels during the incident preclude the same level of visibility of a holstered gun on a carrier's hip as what would be experienced inside a brightly-lit Walmart?


One might think that.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 07:28:43 AM
The way I read the transcript, Zimmerman is at the clubhouse at the start and observing Martin who had come from Taaffe's house.  At around 1:00 Martin approaches Zimmerman's car to check the CAC out and keeps moving to TTL.  At 1:45 Zimmerman is approaching or at the cut through.
I think Martin stalked Zimmerman from Taaffe's house to the clubhouse.  That is my interpretation of the information at the start of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNUHIAVWJG0).  Taaffe is adamant that somebody staying at Brandi Green's house would, especially in the rain, cut by the lake to get there from his house.  See the blue paths when you move the video to 16:50.  (Knechel is mistaken when he says Taafe claimed the red path is the shortest.)  Zimmerman must have fired up Martin's adolescent lust for battle when he slowed down or stopped to observe Martin at Taafe's place; he could have completely avoided the guy in the truck by going the short route which was only possible on foot.


Taafe lives in the complex. Martin did not.(yet) Frank would be much more familiar with shortcuts. He's like the Brer rabbitt of the TRATL briar patch.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 18, 2013, 08:11:53 AM
The complex is not big.  It was Trayvon's 7th or 8th visit according to Brandi Green.  He played football with the kids there.  He knew about the shortcut to the outside near Taaffe's house, why wouldn't he know about the shortcut from Brandi's to Taaffe's?  Why would he bother to climb a hill to use the shortcut across from Altamese Bentley instead of the front entrance, unless he was going to use the shortcut by the pond to get home? 

As I pointed out in the original post in this thread, I am looking for the background of GZ's and TM's fatal encounter.  I just don't believe Zimmerman when he says he has no idea why it happened.  I think they were playing a stupid game against each other.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 08:24:44 AM
You mean like GZ pulls into the parking lot, lets TM pass by, then pulls out, passes TM again, then waits for TM to approach? TM obligingly and without much fear continues to approach? You're right, neither GZ or TM seemed
particularly afraid of the other.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2013, 08:40:48 AM
[TM] knew about the shortcut to the outside near Taaffe's house

I'm still waiting for evidence of that.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 18, 2013, 08:44:39 AM
NMNM, you think that Zimmerman's claim that he first saw Martin near Taaffe's house may be an invention of his?  Martin really entered through the front entrance? 
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 08:51:35 AM
NMNM, you think that Zimmerman's claim that he first saw Martin near Taaffe's house may be an invention of his?  Martin really entered through the front entrance?

Tracy Martin says that TM entered through the gate but then Tracy wasn't there.............
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2013, 09:39:31 AM
NMNM, you think that Zimmerman's claim that he first saw Martin near Taaffe's house may be an invention of his?

Sure. I've said before that I am skeptical that GZ had such a close look at TM before the NEN call. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw#t=01m08s) He didn't seem sure of TM's race until over a minute into the call.

But that's beside the point. GZ hasn't said he saw TM enter RATL, as far as I know..

Quote
Martin really entered through the front entrance?

I don't know of any evidence as to where TM entered.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Redbrow on July 18, 2013, 09:55:47 AM
Tracy Martin says that TM entered through the gate but then Tracy wasn't there.............

Tracy also stated he came in the rear gate during an interview. Crump claimed Martin entered a code for the front gate. I don't trust what either says.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2013, 10:20:47 AM
Tracy also stated he came in the rear gate during an interview.

We've been around this block a few times. Tracy was gesturing at the north gate when he said 'back gate'. I think he always thought TM came in the north gate, and was confused about whether to call the north gate or the southeast gate the 'front' gate.

That said, Tracy never claimed inside knowledge. It seems he just assumed that TM came in one of the gates, and that it was the north gate because that was the area GZ said he saw TM.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 18, 2013, 10:26:37 AM
Sure. I've said before that I am skeptical that GZ had such a close look at TM before the NEN call. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw#t=01m08s) He didn't seem sure of TM's race until over a minute into the call.

But that's beside the point. GZ hasn't said he saw TM enter RATL, as far as I know..

I don't know of any evidence as to where TM entered.
I take it more likely than not that Zimmerman doesn't lie unless there is an advantage in it.  I also don't see Martin raising Zimmerman's suspicions if he came through the front gate.  Apparently there is no video evidence that he did.  I also think that Zimmerman had to initially observe Martin staring into houses and he wouldn't see that if while driving on RVC, he first spotted Martin going up TTL from the front entrance.  There is no reason for Martin to be on or close to Taafe's place unless he entered from the shortcut across from the elementary school.  We can't prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt in these speculations.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 18, 2013, 11:34:58 AM
I think they were playing a stupid game against each other.

I don't think that makes sense with what GZ says in the NEN call.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2013, 11:38:07 AM
I take it more likely than not that Zimmerman doesn't lie unless there is an advantage in it.

I think GZ might have seen advantage in claiming that TM, when GZ first saw him, was in front of a residence with a sensitive history. 

Quote
I also don't see Martin raising Zimmerman's suspicions if he came through the front gate.

That's your fantasy.

When has GZ said a word about how TM entered the complex?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 18, 2013, 11:50:38 AM
MJW, NMNM you are both  welcome to give your rival theories as to why Zimmerman was unthinking enough to leave the car when he saw Martin run into the dog path and Martin was worked up enough to approach and attack Zimmerman when he sighted him walking across the top of the T.  I say it was a matter of reflexes of two guys in a macho challenge game.   While I can't prove my theory, I do claim it is at least consistent with all the evidence.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2013, 11:55:30 AM
MJW, NMNM you are both  welcome to give your rival theories as to why Zimmerman was unthinking enough to leave the car when he saw Martin run into the dog path and Martin was worked up enough to approach and attack Zimmerman when he sighted him walking across the top of the T.  I say it was a matter of reflexes of two guys in a macho challenge game.   While I can't prove my theory, I do claim it is at least consistent with all the evidence.

Except it isn't. There was actually trial testimony from more than one person that Georgie is basically a giant softie with a creamy middle.


Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2013, 12:04:02 PM

I think I have, more than once, given a theory about why GZ left the car and tried to track TM. For example. (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2061.msg106699.html#msg106699)
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 18, 2013, 12:05:16 PM
MJW, NMNM you are both  welcome to give your rival theories as to why Zimmerman was unthinking enough to leave the car when he saw Martin run into the dog path and Martin was worked up enough to approach and attack Zimmerman when he sighted him walking across the top of the T.  I say it was a matter of reflexes of two guys in a macho challenge game.   While I can't prove my theory, I do claim it is at least consistent with all the evidence.

GZ assumed Martin was heading for the hills. I think that was a fairly reasonable assumption. Nothing he says in the remainder of the NEN call indicates he intends to confront TM. I think TM knew exactly why GZ was keeping an eye on him and resented it. He wanted to teach GZ a lesson, the same way he taught the snitch that didn't "breed" enough a lesson.

I already pointed out that what GZ says in the NEN call isn't consistent with your theory. When TM approaches his truck, he seems concerned, not aggressive.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 12:20:30 PM
George of the creamy middle and of apparently little experience and/or instinct in how to act in a confrontation sounds more charged up than concerned during the call. "Ooooooh! He's checkin' me out!"
He also does not seemed too concerned about hanging around a dark area where he last saw the suspicious character. I would not be yakkin' on my phone and fiddling with my flashlight. I would be peering down the dark sidewalk area so as to not be surprised by said character emerging from the darkness like a Ninja.
GZ wasn't sure where TM was but he was reluctant to leave the T. he must have at least theorised that TM was back in the Dogwalk area.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2013, 12:23:00 PM
GZ wasn't sure where TM was but he was reluctant to leave the T.

I don't think there is any evidence for GZ lingering at the T.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 12:29:01 PM
Other than his statement there's no evidence he went any farther.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 18, 2013, 12:31:14 PM
GZ leaving the car was a reflex action - just like that of a dog or cat who, every day, jumps at the bowl of food you are carrying, even though you always put in down for them in a few seconds.  If he thought about what he was doing, he would have realized that his best hope of sighting Martin again was to head down TTL in his truck where he could see both the other end of the dog path and the back entrance.  It was totally illogical to try to keep him in sight on foot in a very dark area.  As far as his gentle, timid nature, the challenge game he was in with Martin pumped up his adrenalin enough to cause a temporary personality change.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 12:36:59 PM
Another question, why did TM wait so long to confront GZ?
I doubt he made it back to the Greens. Serino thought TM hid. GZ says TM came out from a yard.
TM must have been able to see GZ when GZ was on the phone.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2013, 12:46:32 PM
I think TM knew exactly why GZ was keeping an eye on him and resented it.

I doubt that it occurred to TM that GZ thought he was a burglar. He might have had other reasons to worry about 'snitches'.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 12:53:54 PM
I had a clerk in a hardware store follow me and spy on my suspicious looking 52 year old arse last month.
He was all of about 17 years old and apparently thought I was the picture hanging bandit. I found it funny but also annoying.  Sorry for going off topic.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2013, 12:58:57 PM
I had a clerk in a hardware store follow me and spy on my suspicious looking 52 year old arse last month.
He was all of about 17 years old and apparently thought I was the picture hanging bandit. I found it funny but also annoying.  Sorry for going off topic.

You didn't shoot him did you?  :o
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2013, 01:02:07 PM
  As far as his gentle, timid nature, the challenge game he was in with Martin pumped up his adrenalin enough to cause a temporary personality change.

Ahhh...I see. Nothing like a little Deus ex Machina!

At least you don't have him being abducted by aliens, reprogrammed, and set back in exactly the same place in time and space.
Cuz that would just be weird.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 18, 2013, 01:09:26 PM
I doubt that it occurred to TM that GZ thought he was a burglar. He might have had other reasons to worry about 'snitches'.

I'm pretty sure neither of us can come up with evidence for our beliefs, but I think it's very likely it occured to TM that GZ thought he might be a burglar. I think the jewelry and large screwdriver TM was caught with show that he likely was a burglar. If so, he probably thought like a burglar.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 01:11:26 PM
You didn't shoot him did you?  :o

a dirty look :o :P
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2013, 01:14:57 PM
a dirty look :o :P

At which point he leapt upon you and began pummeling you, right?

Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2013, 01:17:29 PM
 :D I escaped to Target
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 18, 2013, 01:19:56 PM
Ahhh...I see. Nothing like a little Deus ex Machina!

At least you don't have him being abducted by aliens, reprogrammed, and set back in exactly the same place in time and space.
Cuz that would just be weird.
You have never noticed any change in a mild mannered friend once they got on a basketball court or soccer field?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2013, 01:28:18 PM
You have never noticed any change in a mild mannered friend once they got on a basketball court or soccer field?

Again: there was trial testimony from people who were in a position to know that Georgie didn't do that.

He couldn't even manage to progress beyond shadow boxing--and certainly if he was given to hulking out, being in a competitive gym atmosphere like that would've done it.

So yes. I've seen mild mannered people get freaky. I've also seen them not get freaky. You can't paint with such a broad brush--especially when there's actual evidence it never happened.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2013, 04:42:34 PM
What I find strange is that many of these people's stories have "evolved". George Zimmerman's hasn't.

Continuing with my opinions on the evolution of George Zimmerman's story.

GZ's reasons for thinking TM was suspicious, and calling him in as such, were discussed at least five times in his SPD interviews (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right). I'm not sure if any other single subject was discussed so often. They also got a brief mention in the 2/26 written statement (http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/40ZK_written_statement_0226.pdf) (p.1).

In an earlier post, (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2567.msg117006.html#msg117006) I noted that on the second such occasion, GZ added something new, not mentioned previously to Singleton, nor to the dispatcher on the NEN call. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw) GZ said that TM, when GZ first saw him, was in front of a particular residence, one that had been of concern in an earlier non-emergency call. Prior to this, GZ had never mentioned TM being in front of any particular residence.

SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/26-1, 10:25-52
Quote
Zimmerman: And this time, I was leaving to go to the grocery store. And like I said, I saw him walking in the neighborhood, the same, in front of the same house that I had called the police before, to come to because this guy leaves his doors unlocked and stuff. And he was walking leisurely and looking at the houses, and, so I just pulled my car to the side. And I called the non-emergency line.

The next time GZ mentioned his reasons for a suspicious person call was in the 2/26 written statement (http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/40ZK_written_statement_0226.pdf) (p.1).

Quote
Tonight, I was on my way to the grocery store when I saw a male approximately 5'11" to 6'2" casually walking in the rain looking into homes. I pulled my vehicle over and called SPD non-emergency phone number.

The particular house was again omitted. Looking 'into', as opposed to 'at', the houses/homes is new. It's a small verbal change, but legally huge.

Fla. Stat. § 810.14 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0810/Sections/0810.14.html)
Quote
(1) A person commits the offense of voyeurism when he or she, with lewd, lascivious, or indecent intent, secretly observes another person when the other person is located in a dwelling, structure, or conveyance and such location provides a reasonable expectation of privacy.
(2) A person who violates this section commits a misdemeanor of the first degree for the first violation . . .

If GZ saw TM looking into a dwelling around 7:00 PM, I think he may have witnessed an actual or attempted misdemeanor. None of the investigators showed any interest in clarifying this.

GZ was released after midnight on 2/27. The reenactment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) was on the afternoon of the same day.

0:00-0:06
Quote
Smith: . . . pick him up at?

Zimmerman: Right here. Right in front of this house.

Smith: OK. Right in front of 1460?

Zimmerman: Yes, sir.

For the first time GZ identified Frank Taaffe's unit, 1460 Retreat View Cir., as the house TM was front of when GZ first saw him. GZ did make a call concerning this house, earlier in the same month, on 2/2/12. The associated Event Report is on p. 45 of the logs. (http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/911CallHistory.pdf)

GZ made two calls on 2/2/12. On the first he gave the address incorrectly as 1960 Retreat View Cir. He called again to correct the address to 1460 RVC.

0:10-15
Quote
Zimmerman: He was walking like in the grassy area, like, up towards, kinda between these two poles.

In the reenactment, GZ mentioned TM walking in the grass without really saying it was another reason for suspicion. He would suggest that more explicitly in his last SPD interview (SPD, (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/19-1, 8:45). I believe these are the only two occasions that GZ mentioned TM walking on the grass at the time of first sighting. Of course that would be implicit when GZ said, in the Hannity interview, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGB72I9B8Sc#t=04m05s) that TM was 'in between houses, cutting in between houses' (4:05).

0:16-1:21
Quote
Like I said, it was rainy. And he wasn't, he was just leisurely looking at the house. And, I, like I said, my wife is, I'd left for the grocery store. And I just felt something was off about him.

Smith: Right.

Zimmerman: So I said, and there's been a history of break-ins in that, and I called previously about this house.

Smith: Right.

Zimmerman: When the police arrived at this house, when I called the first time, the windows were open, and the door was unlocked. And the police came and secured it. So I said, "You know what, it's better to just call." And, I kept driving. I passed him and he was, he kept staring at me, and staring ar-, looking around, to see who else was, I don't know why he was looking, but -

Smith: Did he walk off from there, or did he stop there last night?

Zimmerman: He stopped, and he's, he, he like, looked around. And that's why is, that's what threw me off was, it's raining. I didn't understand why somebody would be, just stopping in the, especially, you know, it wasn't like he was trying to run, to get out of the rain. And I'd never seen him before.

In the reenactment, GZ repeated most of the earlier reasons for suspicion. TM, a stranger to the neighborhood, was walking slowly in the rain, in front of a house that GZ had made an earlier call about. TM looked at the house, stopped in front of the house, and looked around. 

Additions in the reenactment are TM walking in the grass, and a neighboring house having 'a history of break-ins'.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: unitron on July 18, 2013, 05:27:14 PM
We've been around this block a few times. Tracy was gesturing at the north gate when he said 'back gate'. I think he always thought TM came in the north gate, and was confused about whether to call the north gate or the southeast gate the 'front' gate.

That said, Tracy never claimed inside knowledge. It seems he just assumed that TM came in one of the gates, and that it was the north gate because that was the area GZ said he saw TM.

Since the east gate was so close to Brandy's, that's probably the one they most always used, so to him the back gate would be the other one, the north gate.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2013, 05:38:04 PM
Since the east gate was so close to Brandy's, that's probably the one they most always used, so to him the back gate would be the other one, the north gate.

Not only that. BG's unit, in the southeast quadrant of the complex, faced east, in the general direction of the southeast gate. The main gate, in the middle of the north wall, was the 'back gate' in terms of the orientation of the unit.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 18, 2013, 07:10:03 PM
Again: there was trial testimony from people who were in a position to know that Georgie didn't do that.

He couldn't even manage to progress beyond shadow boxing--and certainly if he was given to hulking out, being in a competitive gym atmosphere like that would've done it.

So yes. I've seen mild mannered people get freaky. I've also seen them not get freaky. You can't paint with such a broad brush--especially when there's actual evidence it never happened.
??? There was trial testimony that he didn't do what?   He couldn't get into an emotional state, from the staring and following game he was playing with Martin, that might cause him to do something illogical like get out of the car and head into the darkness?  OK he was looking for an address.   ;D
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2013, 09:27:59 PM
??? There was trial testimony that he didn't do what?   He couldn't get into an emotional state, from the staring and following game he was playing with Martin, that might cause him to do something illogical like get out of the car and head into the darkness?  OK he was looking for an address.   ;D


Why is the initial impulse to follow TM at a distance illogical? Seems like a perfectly valid decision to observe and report where TM was running.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 18, 2013, 09:55:37 PM

Why is the initial impulse to follow TM at a distance illogical? Seems like a perfectly valid decision to observe and report where TM was running.

Oh, it's much more logical to think Zimmerman, in a testosterone-fueled rage, intended to overcome Martin's substantial head start, and chase down him down.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2013, 05:25:00 AM
??? There was trial testimony that he didn't do what?   He couldn't get into an emotional state, from the staring and following game he was playing with Martin, that might cause him to do something illogical like get out of the car and head into the darkness?  OK he was looking for an address.   ;D


Did you make a conscious decision to go back to trolling?

Yes, there was testimony wrt his utter softness and non confrontational personality.

Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2013, 05:25:35 AM

Why is the initial impulse to follow TM at a distance illogical? Seems like a perfectly valid decision to observe and report where TM was running.
What could he expect to see in the darkness?  He knew the area since he himself says he walked his dog there.  As I pointed out, he could have expected to see more by driving down TTL to where he could have observed both the other end of the dogpath and the back entrance.  His later prevarications like trying to find a street sign or house number at the dog path shows Zimmerman himself couldn't justify his getting out of the car in his own mind.  I also don't believe him when he told Singleton that he couldn't tell if Martin ran down the dog path or went to RVC.  His headlights were on.  I covered my views on the address hunt here (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2525.msg113852.html#msg113852).
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2013, 05:41:25 AM

Did you make a conscious decision to go back to trolling?

Yes, there was testimony wrt his utter softness and non confrontational personality.
Go back?  My style has remained consistent since I first came here. 

Nobody testified as to what kind of personality Zimmerman would exhibit, if in his car, he was repeatedly followed and challenged by a punk on foot.  He was afraid to challenge Martin when he was close by but after he thought he ran away Zimmerman's chasing reflex took over and caused him to pop out of the car in a vain effort to follow him - just like my cat jumps on me to get the food bowl in my hand even though she should know by now that I am about to put it down.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2013, 08:45:46 AM
Go back?  My style has remained consistent since I first came here. 

Nobody testified as to what kind of personality Zimmerman would exhibit, if in his car, he was repeatedly followed and challenged by a punk on foot.  He was afraid to challenge Martin when he was close by but after he thought he ran away Zimmerman's chasing reflex took over and caused him to pop out of the car in a vain effort to follow him - just like my cat jumps on me to get the food bowl in my hand even though she should know by now that I am about to put it down.

I see. So your whole theory hinges on Georgie suddenly changing his personality almost 180 degrees, and you claim it's possible because, despite all we heard about his personality, that would change drastically just at that exact time you need it to so as to support your theory.

In other words, Georgie overdosed on gamma radiation THAT DAY!


I see.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2013, 09:26:59 AM
I thought there was mutual agreement not to go deeply into the personalities of Martin and Zimmerman at trial. 

Ex fiancee. Not wife. Women often use protection orders as weapons. I actually have a cousin that did exactly that. To counter that, men (and attorneys) have learned to file their own protection orders. That often leads to court to say 'oh screw this' and ignore the whole mess.

And I'd like to know what your "etc" is. I'm pretty sure you don't have anything, which is why you put "etc"--to imply you did.

I have yet to see "many articles". Please cite them. I'll make it easy--just cite the first half dozen, and make sure they're from reputable sources and they aren't all simply referencing another article or the same incident.

I wouldn't call it a "mutual agreement" that sounds too nice. What happened was that O'Mara served notice that if the state opened the door even the least little bit he was going to bury them with Trayvon's misdeeds.

And since there were actual misdeeds as compared with a couple of things that don't matter--they state let it go. It's one of the reasons they lost--they were unable to make TM into a sympathetic victim other than the constant "this child" bleating.

Well that and that all the actual evidence agreed with Georgie.


Ricky, if you were to hear hoofbeats behind you, would you turn around expecting zebras or horses?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 19, 2013, 09:28:14 AM
What could he expect to see in the darkness?

GZ took a flashlight with him, so I would infer that he didn't know it wasn't working.

From Surdyka's 911 call, it seems that a person in the backyard area could be detected at a distance of 80 feet or more, without even much time for vision to adapt to the darkness.


Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2013, 09:31:08 AM
GZ took a flashlight with him, so I would infer that he didn't know it wasn't working.

From  [deleted]Surdyka's 911 call, it seems that a person in the backyard area could be detected at a distance of 80 feet or more, without even much time for vision to adapt to the darkness.

FIFY.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2013, 10:16:13 AM
Are you suggesting that Zimmerman's original plan was to shine the utility light down the dog path in the hope he could see Martin somehow and the he wasn't concerned that Martin would immediately run back to assault him?   Doesn't sound like the Zimmerman who was afraid to open his driver's side window a crack to identify himself.  I am very much awaiting a civil trial where finally, I think, Zimmerman on the stand will come up with the best explanation he and his lawyers can think up.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2013, 10:22:49 AM
Are you suggesting that Zimmerman's original plan was to shine the utility light down the dog path in the hope he could see Martin somehow and the he wasn't concerned that Martin would immediately run back to assault him?   Doesn't sound like the Zimmerman who was afraid to open his driver's side window a crack to identify himself.  I am very much awaiting a civil trial where finally, I think, Zimmerman on the stand will come up with the best explanation he and his lawyers can think up.

As it's been mentioned to you before (not by me):

At that point GZ had every reason to expect TM had vacated the premises. Shining his light around the dog walk area then is far different from rolling up his windows when TM was actually right there (and btw, how's that square with your theory that that GZ hulked out?).

Not wanting to open his window or wanting to close his window is a pretty good argument against your theory.

Why would he be concerned TM would run back and assault him?

Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: TalkLeft on July 19, 2013, 11:17:36 AM
Ricky, Do not use these forums to make persona character attacks on Zimmerman or anyone. If you continue, you will be banned.

To everyone else, do not describe a witness' testimony as a lie or refer to anyone as a liar. It's enough to say they were wrong.

The trial may be over but I don't intend for these forums to descend into name-calling and personal attacks or a repetition of gossip read elsewhere.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 19, 2013, 11:20:08 AM
What could he expect to see in the darkness?

So he couldn't see where TM was going, but he could see him well enough to chase him down?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 19, 2013, 11:35:16 AM
So he couldn't see where TM was going, but he could see him well enough to chase him down?

I think RJ's theory is that GZ/TM blundered into one another by accident.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2013, 11:57:07 AM
I think RJ's theory is that GZ/TM blundered into one another by accident.
Yes, it is at least as good as any other explanation.   The positions where the headset and phone were found indicate that the meeting was sudden for TM and the dropped keys show the same for Zimmerman.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2013, 12:12:41 PM
I think RJ's theory is that GZ/TM blundered into one another by accident.

One of the last posts I responded to had Ricky insisting GZ hopped out of his truck and raced after TM to confront him.

That's hardly "accident".
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Lousy1 on July 19, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
GZ took a flashlight with him, so I would infer that he didn't know it wasn't working.

From Surdyka's 911 call, it seems that a person in the backyard area could be detected at a distance of 80 feet or more, without even much time for vision to adapt to the darkness.

Retreat view Circle is illuminated.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2013, 12:37:09 PM
One of the last posts I responded to had Ricky insisting GZ hopped out of his truck and raced after TM to confront him.

That's hardly "accident".
Is that a post TL deleted?  If there was one, I don't remember it.  Yes, I agree he was trying to see if he could get a view of Martin again.  But it doesn't make sense from a logical point of view to do that in the way he did it.  Thus my interpretation is that it was a result of emotions caused by their interactions in the game they had been playing in the previous minutes.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2013, 12:46:49 PM
Retreat view Circle is illuminated.
Yes.  NMNM has posted a picture of the streetlamp on it near the back entrance and intersection with TTL.  I remember a youtube video which demonstrated Zimmerman could have driven to the other end of the cut through on RVC in less time than it takes to walk there along the cut through.  I don't think that explains why he got out of the Ridgeline but it gives a decent explanation why he delayed going back to the truck:  He kept waiting to see if Martin would exit out the back entrance.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2013, 12:53:19 PM
One of the last posts I responded to had Ricky insisting GZ hopped out of his truck and raced after TM to confront him.

That's hardly "accident".
What I said was
Quote
He was afraid to challenge Martin when he was close by but after he thought he ran away Zimmerman's chasing reflex took over and caused him to pop out of the car in a vain effort to follow him - just like my cat jumps on me to get the food bowl in my hand even though she should know by now that I am about to put it down.
By follow I didn't mean "raced after TM to confront him".  Just see where he went.  I am not the prosecution, you know.  :D

For Martin the game's goal was approach and intimidate.  For Zimmerman, after he got to the clubhouse, the goal was, keep the guy in sight.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 19, 2013, 02:53:51 PM
Thus my interpretation is that it was a result of emotions caused by their interactions in the game they had been playing in the previous minutes.

I hear nothing in the NEN call to suggest GZ viewed it as a game. Your game-playing hypothesis strikes me as nothing more than a baseless flight of fancy.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2013, 03:35:33 PM
I hear nothing in the NEN call to suggest GZ viewed it as a game. Your game-playing hypothesis strikes me as nothing more than a baseless flight of fancy.
Do you agree that the 2/26 NEN call has some features not seen in previous NEN calls?We also have what I think is a reasonable inference that Martin followed Zimmerman from Taaffe's house to the clubhouse instead of taking a shortcut home.  I find this all indicative that Zimmerman was absorbed with something else besides getting the police to the RATL ASAP to investigate a suspicious person on the premises. 

I have a scientific background and I am always trying to make hypotheses to explain a set of phenomena.  The game one seems to work best in this case but I will change my mind if I see a better one.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 19, 2013, 04:28:33 PM
Do you agree that the 2/26 NEN call has some features not seen in previous NEN calls?

[snip]

Moving of car during call to trail suspect

That is something GZ claimed in some of the SPD interviews. I don't hear anything in the NEN recording that necessarily indicates the car was moved during the call.

Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2013, 04:36:09 PM
That is something GZ claimed in some of the SPD interviews. I don't hear anything in the NEN recording that necessarily indicates the car was moved during the call.
True, but don't you agree that he moved it to the vicinity of the cut through while trailing the suspect and there is no indication he did such a thing previously?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Lousy1 on July 19, 2013, 04:57:47 PM
Did he act exactly the same on any two calls? Were the circumstances the same?

If not this is just very silly
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 19, 2013, 05:01:46 PM
True, but don't you agree that he moved it to the vicinity of the cut through while trailing the suspect

I don't know.

GZ following TM in his car would be consistent with him wanting to be able to stay updated on TM's location and direct the police to him.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2013, 05:20:21 PM
In the previous calls he seemed to think just getting the police to the complex and describing the suspect was enough.  He did not need to meet them at all, with the exception of the call where the suspects were at the back gate and he was going to let the police in there because there was no code. I think he realized that suspects tend to move around and any place the cops start looking was as good as any other.  But 2/26/12 was different.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 19, 2013, 05:26:20 PM
In the previous calls he seemed to think just getting the police to the complex and describing the suspect was enough.

That hadn't worked. They kept getting away.

Then the stucco guys followed a suspect, and he was caught.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2013, 05:41:35 PM
Is that a post TL deleted? If there was one, I don't remember it.  Yes, I agree he was trying to see if he could get a view of Martin again.  But it doesn't make sense from a logical point of view to do that in the way he did it.  Thus my interpretation is that it was a result of emotions caused by their interactions in the game they had been playing in the previous minutes.

probably. I seem to have lost about half of what I posted today. Good thing the trial's over I guess.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 19, 2013, 05:47:32 PM
Do you agree that the 2/26 NEN call has some features not seen in previous NEN calls?

None of those differences suggest to me in any way that Zimmerman was engaged in game playing. I can't see why they suggest that to you.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 20, 2013, 08:30:26 AM
Then the stucco guys followed a suspect, and he was caught.

HOA President Donald O'Brien testified about the stucco guys, starting about 9:26 on this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxeDFj5fYoA#t=09m26s) He said that he informed GZ about the arrest (10:52).

I think GZ was referring to the same incident on the last day of his SPD inverviews.

SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/29-1, 7:17-40
Quote
Zimmerman: Then, the next week, not at that building, but at the next building on the ending there, the, the guy I saw, broke in, apparently stole a laptop, from what I understand, and ran off. But one of the maintenance guys saw him, and was able to give the police a direction of where he was going.

Serino: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: And he was actually arrested.

I put this together with some other statements by GZ.

Non-emergency Call, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw#t=01m37s) 1:37
Quote
These a*holes, they always get away.

2/26-1, 3:52-4:08
Quote
Zimmerman:  And, there's been a few times where I've seen a suspicious person in the neighborhood. We call the police, the non-emergency line, and these guys always get away.

2/26-1, 9:44-10:03
Quote
Singleton: OK, let's get back to where you were. OK. You started a neighborhood watch group?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: OK. And?

Zimmerman: I had called before, and the police had come out. But, these guys know the neighborhood very well, and they would cut in between buildings and lose -

Singleton: You're saying "these guys." Who are "these guys"?

Zimmerman: The people coming in, the burglars.

It seems clear to me why GZ might have decided, on 2/26/12, to change strategies and hunt the suspicious person on foot.

The 'cut in between buildings' part, suggests to me that GZ might not have assumed that TM intended to exit through the back gate, just because that was the direction he was last seen heading.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 20, 2013, 09:06:57 AM
O'Brien said that he thought the stucco incident happened a few months before 2/26/12 so that is not consistent with the sudden change being on the 26th.  The description he gave of how the burglar was caught by following at a distance, mentioned it happened at lunchtime.  So Zimmerman thinking he could do the same with Martin, in the dark, cannot be rationally justified.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: turbo6 on July 20, 2013, 09:37:12 AM
I tend to think Martin's behavior when approaching Zimmerman's truck was the catalyst for this whole event. GZ undoubtedly perceived him as suspicious from the start and I think Martin realized pretty quickly he was being "watched". However, Martin's response is what elevated GZ's suspicions to another level.

Based on what was described in the police call, Martin's approaching seemed unsettling, perhaps threatening, maybe confrontational. Although nothing was verbalized, his mannerisms seem to speak of either trying to spook GZ, or perhaps provoke him.

Obviously this startled Zimmerman, he wanted the cops there ASAP. Through the eyes of someone watching over the neighborhood he saw someone cutting into the development through people's yard, instead of the gate. Possibly looking around at houses aimlessly in the rain and then staring at Zimmerman, approaching him and doing what could have very well been a gesture that he had a weapon in his waistband AND then inexplicably running away after.

Lots of people make the obvious assertion that none of this would have happened had Zimmerman just stayed in the car, but then ignore Martin's actions. However, if Martin just continued to walk home casually, no circling, no staring, no gestures I don't think Zimmerman would have left his vehicle or even have found merit in following up with police after.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 20, 2013, 09:50:45 AM
he saw someone cutting into the development through people's yard, instead of the gate.

That's not consistent with GZ's statements in his SPD interviews.  In the interviews, GZ always put TM in Taaffe's front yard or on TTL when GZ first saw him. GZ didn't say that he saw TM enter the complex, in the SPD interviews or the Hannity interview.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 20, 2013, 11:03:44 AM
O'Brien said that he thought the stucco incident happened a few months before 2/26/12

Video, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxeDFj5fYoA#t=12m06s) 12:06
Quote
Mantei: Give me the time frame, on about when that happened.
O'Brien: I'm thinking, oh, gosh. I would have to guess. I'm not, I couldn't -
Mantei: OK. Let me ask you this. Just in general terms. Was it close in time to the shooting that's related in this case? 
O'Brien: Yeah, I think it was a couple of months before that. Yes.

When Mantei opened the subject, probably with notes or records on the podium, he said it was in 2012 (9:26). That narrows it down to January and February.

10:11-21
Quote
O'Brien: And, I was down there, talking to the guys to see how progress was going. And this gentleman walked down the street, who we'd seen numerous times before. And he just stood in the middle of the street, talking to us.

NEN, 2/2/12 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490588/data/3/-/oq9q6s/-/Call-6.null)
Quote
Zimmerman: And now, this gentleman was walking in the neighborhood. And I've seen him before, on trash days, going around picking up trash.

I think O'Brien, testifying well over a year later, was off by a few weeks. I think this is the same event GZ referenced, and it was in February 2012, between GZ's 2/2 and 2/26 NEN calls.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Lousy1 on July 20, 2013, 12:42:45 PM
O'Brien said that he thought the stucco incident happened a few months before 2/26/12 so that is not consistent with the sudden change being on the 26th.  The description he gave of how the burglar was caught by following at a distance, mentioned it happened at lunchtime.  So Zimmerman thinking he could do the same with Martin, in the dark, cannot be rationally justified.


It would if Martin had fled down RVC rather than the dog track. RVC was not dark. Conceivably GZ could have seen him at a distance as he exited the back gate.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 20, 2013, 06:07:24 PM
Was the person the stucco workers followed and Zimmerman saw in front of Taaffe's house on 2/2/12, Emanuel Burgess?  I don't think that name was given during O'Brien's testimony.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 20, 2013, 06:16:09 PM

It would if Martin had fled down RVC rather than the dog track. RVC was not dark. Conceivably GZ could have seen him at a distance as he exited the back gate.
It would have taken 15 seconds for Zimmerman to drive to a position where he could observe anybody exiting either the dog path or RVC on their way to the back entrance.  As the other RJ would say, "Trust me".   ;D  I have been trying for over a year to figure out a way that Zimmerman's getting out of the car makes sense and have come up empty.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 20, 2013, 08:18:14 PM
It seems clear to me why GZ might have decided, on 2/26/12, to change strategies and hunt the suspicious person on foot.

Hunt? Seriously? You seem quite capable of using words precisely,  so I tend to assume the ridiculously inflammatory choice wasn't an accident.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: SuzieTampa on July 20, 2013, 08:42:58 PM
Women often use protection orders as weapons.
When you make insulting generalizations about women, please provide some evidence.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 21, 2013, 06:37:35 AM
What I find strange is that many of these people's stories have "evolved". George Zimmerman's hasn't.

Continuing with my opinions on the evolution of George Zimmerman's story.

The CVSA interview and test were on the evening of 2/27/12, a few hours after the reenactment.

CVSA,  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjRp-vIvTNg#t=25m36s)25:36
Quote
Zimmerman: And, I was leaving my neighborhood when I saw this guy, walking slowly in front of a house, looking towards the house. And I knew he didn't live there, so that made me a little suspicious. And then he kept staring around him, at me, and behind. And it arose my suspicion. And then he was, it was raining. And, he didn't look like he was in a rush to get out the rain.

An abbreviated version of the suspicion list, omitting explicit identification of 1460 RVC, and its sensitive history. I think this is the first explicit statement that GZ knew that TM didn't live in the house that he was in front of when GZ first saw him.

SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/29-1, 4:36-53
Quote
Zimmerman: Two or three weeks prior to that, I'd seen somebody looking in a window of the house that he was in front of.

Serino: Was he white or black?

Zimmerman: Black.

Serino: OK.

Zimmerman: And, the guy that lives there, I know, he's active in the neighborhood watch, and he's Caucasian.

GZ told the story of his 2/2/12 NEN call (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490588/data/3/-/oq9q6s/-/Call-6.null) in more detail, and a little more accurately, than he had previously (45/47 of the logs (http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/911CallHistory.pdf)). He called because he saw a black male showing an interest in 1460 Retreat View Cir., which GZ hadn't mentioned in the earlier interviews. When the police arrived the man had left. The police found all the windows and the garage door open, and the front door unlocked. GZ gave them the owner's phone number, and they got his consent to enter and secure the house.

SPD 2/29-1, 7:41-54
Quote
Zimmerman: So when I saw him, in the same area, in front of the guy's house that I know [unintelligible] had been unsecured, and he was looking into the house, I just thought something doesn't fit right here.

SPD 2/29-1, 8:03-53
Quote
Serino: What did you see Trayvon doing, that caught you as being suspicious?

Zimmerman: He was looking at the house, intently. And then -

Serino: What, the same house?

Zimmerman: The same house that, yeah, that had, I had called about before. [Crosstalk] the window.

Serino: Did he stop, did he - ?

Zimmerman: He stopped.

Serino: In front of the house?

Zimmerman: He stopped in front of the house. And then, I drove, there was a car, like, backing up, so I, I slowed down. And then I drove around him. And he kept looking at me. And then when I passed, oh, it was raining. And then I said, you know what, he's not walking briskly, to get out of the rain. He wasn't, he didn't look like a marathon runner that is active, in like, you know, that trains in the rain. He was just walking slowly [unintelligible] the grass and onto the sidewalk. And I said "Something's off." So, that's why I called non-emergency.

I believe this is the longest of the suspicion lists, and the only one to include both 'looking at' and 'looking into' the houses. It is one of two in the SPD interviews that include TM walking on grass, the other being the reenactment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) (0:00-1:35).

SPD (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) 2/29-3, 0:51-1:19
Quote
Serino: One more time. Why suspicious?

Zimmerman: It was raining.

Serino: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: He was looking into the houses, looking behind, looking at me. He wasn't walking quickly to get out of the rain. He didn't look like he was like, trying to head home. He didn't look like a hard core athlete, that wanted to like, train in the rain, or anything. He just looked out of place.

Serino: OK.

Another abbreviated list, and the last suspicion list in the SPD interviews. I think it is the third occurrence of 'looking into' the houses. There is no mention of TM being in front of a house with a sensitive history, or of TM showing an interest in any particular house.

1:32-41
Quote
Serino: On drugs, why?

Zimmerman: Oh, because he just kept looking around, looking behind him, looking, just kept shifting where he was looking.

GZ's most specific description of what he meant when he said, on the NEN call, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw#t=00m17s) that TM was 'looking about' (0:17-25). It was the only time that GZ  explained 'looks like . . . he's on drugs'. It was the only time he was asked to.

I wouldn't call this an evolution of the story. It is a clarification of one of the original elements. I thought it was too interesting not to give it a mention, while I was going over the suspicion lists.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 21, 2013, 07:34:07 AM
When you make insulting generalizations about women, please provide some evidence.

Get over yourself.

I know women do it. I've seen them do it. I've also seen cops and lawyers advise them wink wink to do it.

And saying "women often" isn't an insulting generalization. Drop the hyper PC act. It's boring.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Lousy1 on July 21, 2013, 08:06:59 AM
It would have taken 15 seconds for Zimmerman to drive to a position where he could observe anybody exiting either the dog path or RVC on their way to the back entrance.  As the other RJ would say, "Trust me".   ;D  I have been trying for over a year to figure out a way that Zimmerman's getting out of the car makes sense and have come up empty.

Are you suggesting that he drive his car down an unilluminated grass walkway?
That could become manslaughter (or at least a big Bill from the HOA.)

If you have some other path in mind please validate your assertion that it could be reached in 15 seconds

Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 21, 2013, 08:30:44 AM
TTL makes a 90 degree turn east towards the back entrance a few hundred feet south of where Zimmerman's car was parked.  Stopping at the turn might be a good vantage point.  If he were really adventurous, he might try to maneuver his truck perpendicular to TTL and shine his headlights into the dog path.  Officer Tim Smith was able to look into the dog path from that vantage point with the revolving searchlight on top of his patrol car and saw somebody (Zimmerman? Manalo?) at the other end.  Smith then turned north up RVC where he parked near the cut through.  Zimmerman could have kept going back and forth on Smith's route until the police arrived.   Anything like that had an objectively much better chance of sighting a fleeing suspect in the dark than what he actually did.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: SuzieTampa on July 21, 2013, 08:33:05 AM
Drop the hyper PC act. It's boring.
So ... your opinion and anecdotal evidence supports your generalization about what women often do? I'm on TL because people generally use evidence to support their accusations, instead of making insulting generalizations about one group or another.

If you'd like, I can provide evidence that many men stalk, abuse and kill wives, girlfriends and exes. If you want anecdotal evidence: I helped my sister escape an abusive husband with what she and her friends could pack in their cars. Because she's poor, I hired a lawyer who took out a protective order. But the husband kept coming to her workplace, and she had to quit because her employer wouldn't stop him. We were taking care of our father with Alzheimer's, and I bought a house where we could all live, but the husband would drive by slowly and park outside. We asked our lawyer if we could enforce the protective order, but he said that would only enrage the husband and increase the likelihood of violence. I was hemorrhaging from a fast-growing cancer, and when I went into surgery, I had to tell hospital security to be sure to keep out the husband, who blamed me for taking away his sister.

But feel free to ignore this "boring" topic.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: Lousy1 on July 21, 2013, 09:32:20 AM
TTL makes a 90 degree turn east towards the back entrance a few hundred feet south of where Zimmerman's car was parked.  Stopping at the turn might be a good vantage point.  If he were really adventurous, he might try to maneuver his truck perpendicular to TTL and shine his headlights into the dog path.  Officer Tim Smith was able to look into the dog path from that vantage point with the revolving searchlight on top of his patrol car and saw somebody (Zimmerman? Manalo?) at the other end.  Smith then turned north up RVC where he parked near the cut through.  Zimmerman could have kept going back and forth on Smith's route until the police arrived.   Anything like that had an objectively much better chance of sighting a fleeing suspect in the dark than what he actually did.


And that view is better than the view afforded from a point of disappearance 40 ft away.?

No way
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 21, 2013, 09:48:54 AM
Yes it was much, much better.  Educate yourself how dark the dog path was that night.  Besides the trial testimony, try here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-h0GmjHSkA) and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRseaqTsaM0) for starters.  And I thought you were claiming before that he didn't know whether Martin went down the dog path or RVC.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 21, 2013, 10:34:22 AM
So ... your opinion and anecdotal evidence supports your generalization about what women often do? I'm on TL because people generally use evidence to support their accusations, instead of making insulting generalizations about one group or another.

If you'd like, I can provide evidence that many men stalk, abuse and kill wives, girlfriends and exes. If you want anecdotal evidence: I helped my sister escape an abusive husband with what she and her friends could pack in their cars. Because she's poor, I hired a lawyer who took out a protective order. But the husband kept coming to her workplace, and she had to quit because her employer wouldn't stop him. We were taking care of our father with Alzheimer's, and I bought a house where we could all live, but the husband would drive by slowly and park outside. We asked our lawyer if we could enforce the protective order, but he said that would only enrage the husband and increase the likelihood of violence. I was hemorrhaging from a fast-growing cancer, and when I went into surgery, I had to tell hospital security to be sure to keep out the husband, who blamed me for taking away his sister.

But feel free to ignore this "boring" topic.

I don't recall saying there weren't abusive males. Of course there are. Just as there are abusive females.

If you're going to construct straw men--er---straw figures--could you at least make them pretty (or handsome, as you prefer)?
Thank you.


Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: vegas on July 21, 2013, 11:53:46 AM
Yes it was much, much better.  Educate yourself how dark the dog path was that night.  Besides the trial testimony, try here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-h0GmjHSkA) and here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRseaqTsaM0) for starters.  And I thought you were claiming before that he didn't know whether Martin went down the dog path or RVC.
Speaking o the dog path, Austin was never called to testify. His mother must have been very unhappy that she did not get another 15 seconds of fame.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 21, 2013, 01:44:19 PM
Educate yourself how dark the dog path was that night. 

Disagreeing with you is not the same as being uneducated.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 21, 2013, 02:06:00 PM
Disagreeing with you is not the same as being uneducated.

An argument could be made...ah, skip it.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 21, 2013, 02:14:06 PM
[GZ] might try to maneuver his truck perpendicular to TTL and shine his headlights into the dog path.  Officer Tim Smith was able to look into the dog path from that vantage point with the revolving searchlight on top of his patrol car and saw somebody (Zimmerman? Manalo?) at the other end.

Do you have a cite for the searchlight being mounted on top of the vehicle? In my experience, police vehicle searchlights are usually mounted on the side.

I think Smith was at the west end of the cut-through looking east, when he saw the two people who were probably GZ and Manalo.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 21, 2013, 02:15:19 PM
An argument could be made...ah, skip it.

I have no idea what you mean to insinuate.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: RickyJim on July 21, 2013, 02:36:58 PM
Do you have a cite for the searchlight being mounted on top of the vehicle? In my experience, police vehicle searchlights are usually mounted on the side.

I think Smith was at the west end of the cut-through looking east, when he saw the two people who were probably GZ and Manalo.
Starting around the 5:20 point here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI1fvhXYe6I&feature=player_embedded), he shows with the laser pointer on the Google map that he stopped at the south end of the dog path on TTL to point the spotlight on the patrol vehicle north and saw "at the end of the walkway at least one person standing outside."  He said he could maneuver the spotlight from inside the car.  Here is a pic (https://www.google.com/search?q=spotlights+on+police+cars&client=firefox-a&hs=5Fh&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=MUfsUYWcHPHJ4AON8ICQCw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1093&bih=601#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=0Ne8SCZm2JGTaM%3A%3B8ETRPkbpdhwQjM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%252F6074%252F6033215334_c92a24a202.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.golight.com%252Fblog%252F%253Fp%253D321%3B500%3B282) of one mounted on top of a police car.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 21, 2013, 02:38:14 PM
Austin was never called to testify. His mother must have been very unhappy that she did not get another 15 seconds of fame.

Looking at what Cheryl Brown said on her TV appearances, I think her goal was to impeach her son's testimony, making it useless to the defense so that he would not have to testify.

I don't mean to say that she was successful. I think there were other reasons (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2534.msg114345.html#msg114345) that neither side chose to call Austin McLendon.

Al Sharpton, 3/28/12 (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909475-witness-mom-says-police-told-her-trayvon-martin-shooting-wasnt-self-defense)

Nancy Grace, 3/29/12 (http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/30/mom-of-trayvon-ear-witness-speaks-out/)
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 21, 2013, 02:43:44 PM
Starting around the 5:20 point here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI1fvhXYe6I&feature=player_embedded), he shows with the laser pointer on the Google map that he stopped at the south end of the dog path on TTL to point the spotlight on the patrol vehicle north and saw "at the end of the walkway at least one person standing outside."

I see now. Thank you.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: MJW on July 21, 2013, 02:46:45 PM
Looking at what Cheryl Brown said on her TV appearances, I think her goal was to impeach her son's testimony, making it useless to the defense so that he would not have to testify.

His deposition was part of the defense discovery. I would think that would make it public information. I'd certainly like to see it.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: SuzieTampa on July 21, 2013, 04:04:24 PM
I don't recall saying there weren't abusive males.

Nor did I say that you said that. You suggested that "women often" get protective orders for reasons other than the need to protect themselves. I asked you for evidence to support generalizing about a group, and I mentioned that women have plenty of reasons to get protective orders since men commit so much abuse. 
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 21, 2013, 05:46:21 PM
Nor did I say that you said that. You suggested that "women often" get protective orders for reasons other than the need to protect themselves. I asked you for evidence to support generalizing about a group, and I mentioned that women have plenty of reasons to get protective orders since men commit so much abuse.

Not the place for it. If you want to continue flailing at straw men send a PM.

Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: ding7777 on July 22, 2013, 07:19:32 AM

Looking at what Cheryl Brown said on her TV appearances, I think her goal was to impeach her son's testimony, making it useless to the defense so that he would not have to testify.


Did any other witness see Austin?  Did Austin see any other neighbor/witness before he called 911?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 22, 2013, 12:19:29 PM
Did any other witness see Austin?  Did Austin see any other neighbor/witness before he called 911?

Not that I recall.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 24, 2013, 08:47:38 PM
Did Austin see any other neighbor/witness before he called 911?

Strictly speaking, Austin McLendon didn't call 911. His sister, Sierra McLendon, called 911, after her brother ran into the house and told her what he had seen and heard. During the call, the dispatcher asked Sierra to put Austin on the phone, at which point he also talked to the dispatcher.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 29, 2013, 03:47:53 PM
Was the person the stucco workers followed and Zimmerman saw in front of Taaffe's house on 2/2/12, Emanuel Burgess?  I don't think that name was given during O'Brien's testimony.

On this video, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxeDFj5fYoA#t=09m26s) O'Brien's testimony about the stucco guys is 9:26-12:44 (Mantei's direct), and 15:53-17:20 (O'Mara's cross). O'Brien didn't name the person arrested, or give the name or address of the person whose home was burglarized, or specify what was stolen, or where the 'stucco guys' were working at the time of the burglary. These omissions make the 'stucco guys' incident hard to identify.

Twin Lakes Burglary Reports, (http://justoneminute.typepad.com/files/twinlakesburglaryreports.pdf) pp. 1-5.

Emmanuel Burgess was arrested on 2/7/12, for the 2/6/12 burglary of the home of Tatiana Deamicis, 1540 Retreat View Circle.

A report for the 8/3/11 burglary of the home of Olivia Bertalan, 1840 Retreat View Cir., is on pp. 12-13 of the Burglary Reports.

Map (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/9362080411/lightbox/) 

Case Details, (http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/burgessbertalandocket.pdf) Olivia Bertalan, 1840 RVC.

Case Details, (http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/burgessdemeacisdocketfeb12.pdf) Tatiana Deamicis, 1540 RVC.

If I'm reading these documents correctly, the first says that in the Bertalan case. Emmanuel Burgess was convicted of burglary and grand theft. The second says that in the Deamicis case, Burgess was convicted of grand theft, dealing in stolen property, resisting an officer without violence, and giving a false identity. Both say that Burgess was born in July, 1993.

Testimony of Olivia Bertalan in the trial of George Zimmerman (video). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ho5BCw5h5A) More on Emmanuel Burgess at the TalkLeft blog. (http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/7/10/172233/115/crimenews/George-Zimmerman-Trial-Defense-Rests#pq=EgXP39)

Reuters, 4/25/12 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425)
Quote
On February 6, the home of another Twin Lakes resident, Tatiana Demeacis, was burglarized. Two roofers working directly across the street said they saw two African-American men lingering in the yard at the time of the break-in. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. One of the roofers called police the next day after spotting one of the suspects among a group of male teenagers, three black and one white, on bicycles.

Police found Demeacis's laptop in the backpack of 18-year-old Emmanuel Burgess, police reports show, and charged him with dealing in stolen property.

Discrepancies:

As mentioned previously, O'Brien said he could only guess at the date, and his guess was 'a couple of months' before the shooting (12:06). The burglary of 1540 RVC was on 2/6/12, about three weeks before the shooting. 

O'Brien said the stucco guys were working on walls (10:04). Reuters says Burgess was spotted and reported by 'roofers'.

O'Brien said the burglar was arrested 'days' after the burglary (15:53). Burgess was arrested on 2/7/12, the next day after the burglary.

Parallels:

As mentioned previously, Mantei said the incident was in 2012, putting it in January or February (9:26).

In both stories, the burglar was spotted by men who were there to do some kind of construction/maintenance work, and arrested on a later day.

O'Brien said the burglar was someone 'we had seen numerous times before' (10:11). In his 2/2 NEN call, (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490588/data/3/-/oq9q6s/-/Call-6.null) GZ said: 'And now, this gentleman was walking in the neighborhood. And I've seen him before, on trash days, going around picking up trash.'

O'Brien said the burglar was '17 or 18' (16:40). Burgess was born in July of 1993. He would have been 18 in February of 2012.

O'Brien said the stucco guys were having lunch at Kohls, saw the burglar 'walking down the street', and followed him 'to the development' (11:25, 16:06). Burgess was arrested in a cut through connecting RATL with Colonial Village (Burglary Reports, p. 4). That's a likely place for entering RATL from the direction of Kohls.

If Donald O'Brien's 'stucco guys' story does not correspond to the 2/7/12 arrest of Emmanuel Burgess, for the 2/6/12 theft of a necklace and a laptop computer from the home of Tatiana Deamicis, 1540 RVC, then it corresponds to the arrest of whom, on what date, for the theft of what, on what date, from whose home, at what address? In all the reporting on the Zimmerman case, has there been mention of another burglary arrest that might correspond to O'Brien's stucco guys story?

Until I hear of such a case, my opinion is that the stucco guys story is the 2/7/12 arrest of Emmanuel Burgess, as half-remembered by O'Brien over a year later.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 30, 2013, 08:39:10 AM
Strictly speaking, Austin McLendon didn't call 911. His sister, Sierra McLendon, called 911, after her brother ran into the house and told her what he had seen and heard. During the call, the dispatcher asked Sierra to put Austin on the phone, at which point he also talked to the dispatcher.

Did anyone ask Austin if the screaming began after he went outside?
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 30, 2013, 11:08:27 AM
Did anyone ask Austin if the screaming began after he went outside?

How would he know when the screaming began?

He always said that he went outside, then he heard screams.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 30, 2013, 03:02:11 PM
So Mom told him to walk the dog with blood curdling screams coming from the backyard?
You know what I'm getting at. ::)
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: DiwataMan on July 30, 2013, 03:42:07 PM
Here is  a theory for ya all

Rachel May Have Been on Phone Through Entire Incident
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/rachel-may-have-been-on-phone-through-entire-incident/
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 30, 2013, 04:00:13 PM
So Mom told him to walk the dog with blood curdling screams coming from the backyard?

Cheryl Brown reminded Austin McLendon to walk the dog as she was headed out the door, to be out for the evening.

Quote
You know what I'm getting at. ::)

I don't. I honestly thought I answered the question you asked.
Title: Re: Your Theories
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 31, 2013, 06:53:32 AM
Here is  a theory for ya all

Rachel May Have Been on Phone Through Entire Incident
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/07/30/rachel-may-have-been-on-phone-through-entire-incident/

Interesting.   What about Chad's calls to TM? Were there VMs?