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State v. George Zimmerman (Pre-Trial) => Zimmerman: Police Investigation => Topic started by: willisnewton on July 06, 2012, 05:17:40 PM

Title: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 06, 2012, 05:17:40 PM
We now have a great deal of information, documents and recordings outlining the investigation conducted by Sanford Police.  Without benefit of a lawyer, GZ gave them many statements and they collected a good deal of evidence.  What did they miss, as evidenced by later actIons?  What did they catch? Should it have ended there or not?   What could local prosecutor norm Wolfinger have done with just what the SPD found?  What if they had more time? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: TalkLeft on July 06, 2012, 05:28:11 PM
It doesn't seem like the FDLE and State's Attorney's office did much more than the Sanford Police. I think we'll know Monday when the new discovery is available.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 06, 2012, 06:49:15 PM
We now have a great deal of information, documents and recordings outlining the investigation conducted by Sanford Police.  Without benefit of a lawyer, GZ gave them many statements and they collected a good deal of evidence.  What did they miss, as evidenced by later actIons?  What did they catch? Should it have ended there or not?   What could local prosecutor norm Wolfinger have done with just what the SPD found?  What if they had more time?

It would have been nice to see a rigorous, questioning and  vetting of DeeDee's statement as appears to have been done with John
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: labrat on July 06, 2012, 06:54:36 PM
Doesn't look like they bothered to interview the 7-11 clerk.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Aussie54 on July 07, 2012, 12:26:05 AM
It would have been nice to see a rigorous, questioning and  vetting of DeeDee's statement as appears to have been done with John
Yes indeed, DeeDee was softballed and there are so many things wrong with her statement that it is hard to know where to begin. There are so many inconsistencies with her statement.

Title: Re: additional facts established by FDLE
Post by: willisnewton on July 07, 2012, 07:31:36 AM
You could also look at it this way: the FDLE worked to uncover more but were not able to find more due to the time that had passed.  How would the investigation have proceeded if SPD knew TM was talking on the phone at the time of  the altercation, or what might they have learned had they secured his vehicle as part of the initial investigation? The prosecutors had a date to speak with George but he changed his mind; what was he likely to be asked at that time?  IMO the Sanford PD established in their final questioning session, the one where they finally play the non emergency call to dispatch that GZ mischaracterized a major part of his story, namely the way he traveled from near the clubhouse to the T intersection and that GZ was presented with his contradictions repeatedly and offered the chance to amend his statement but declined, thus forming the framework for the prosecution's strategy of attacking his credibility and demonstrating that he is hiding actions they can use to show a jury he had a different motive than the one he claimed for exiting his vehicle and for moving his vehicle.  There is "the crime" and there is "the cover up."  SPD arms to have found at least one of those, IMO.   GZ told dispatch that TM was "at the clubhouse" when he came to approach GZs vehicle - he says  the two things seemingly in the same breath.  Yet later he claims this action by TM is one of doubling back from near the T and circling GZs vehicle, an action that is impossible to reconcile credibly with the recording. GZ also made the claim he was directed by dispatch to move from the clubhouse parking lot (in so many words) and this stands in opposition to the idea that he was already parked at the cut thru as the recorded call began.  It seems to me that SPD concluded their interviews with GZ convinced he was pushing a false narrative at least in those regards, but lacking Dee Dee  or a good eyewitness to the start of the physical aspect of the altercation knew the case for murder was weak but that GZ wasn't fully credible.

Somehow the special prosecutor is behaving in a manner that suggests they can take the case to trial and prove Murder in the second degree.  What do they have that Serino did not?  We don't know, but we can make a few guesses.  perhaps all the prosecution needed was time to sift the clues. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 07, 2012, 08:00:22 AM
Michael Nifong acted in a way that indicated he believed he could prove that a rape occured despite having contradictory DNA evidence.


When the case is politically charged, suspect bluster.

In anycase we should have a very good grasp on the states case by Monday. We have yet to be exposed to evidence and witnesses discovered by the defense,.
 
Title: The SPD And The Martins
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 07, 2012, 08:38:58 AM
  How would the investigation have proceeded if SPD knew TM was talking on the phone at the time of the altercation,

They would have known Trayvon was on the phone that night if the Martins had told them.

His being on the phone 'at the time of the altercation' is unproven.

Quote
Somehow the special prosecutor is behaving in a manner that suggests they can take the case to trial and prove Murder in the second degree.

I think she is posturing to appease a political constituency.
Title: Re: The SPD And The Martins
Post by: unitron on July 07, 2012, 09:53:50 AM
They would have known Trayvon was on the phone that night if the Martins had told them.

His being on the phone 'at the time of the altercation' is unproven.

I think she is posturing to appease a political constituency.

The Martins didn't know until they got the cell phone bill, and the bill shows an incoming call which could have lasted until the start of the struggle, although we don't have exact times for either.


As to politics being behind some of this, we are probably more closely in agreement on that aspect than on others.
Title: Re: politics and the truth are not separate always
Post by: Lousy1 on July 07, 2012, 05:10:01 PM
Just curious - do you expect the victim of every violent crime to perfectly recall every detail, relevant or not.
That attitude could dramatically diminish our prison overpopulation problem.

  Maybe a lot of this is inconvenient for those who think GZ acted in self defense; but absent his say-so, what proof is there that the fight STARTED in the manner he describes? 


Wrong. What proof is there that the fight DIDN"T START in the manner he describes
Questions are not evidence.  No evidence no conviction.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Jujube on July 07, 2012, 05:50:50 PM
One piece of evidence I found interesting was the portion of the Stress Analysis video where GZ was talking with Singleton and he asked her if she ever had to shoot someone.  She said no.  What he said immediately after that is very telling.  (I don't have a transcript of that or I would post it but it's worth going back and listening to.) 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 07, 2012, 06:03:56 PM
One piece of evidence I found interesting was the portion of the Stress Analysis video where GZ was talking with Singleton and he asked her if she ever had to shoot someone.  She said no.  What he said immediately after that is very telling.  (I don't have a transcript of that or I would post it but it's worth going back and listening to.)

Here you go - the small talk is a little too tiresome for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY)
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Jujube on July 07, 2012, 06:38:04 PM
Here you go - the small talk is a little too tiresome for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY)

Do you know where there is a written transcript? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Cylinder on July 07, 2012, 06:48:10 PM
This is not a thread about public opinion, or media bias, or injuries that GZ may or may not have suffered at the hands of Trayvon Martin, insofar as none of the medical evidence proves how the fight started.  This is a thread about what SPD did and didn't do when the ball was in their court.  Please stay on topic or post elsewhere.

The disparity of injury is evidence of an ambush style attack. It's not really honest to make a claim about the evidence (i.e. "injuries that GZ may or may not have suffered at the hands of Trayvon Martin") and then pretend that it's off-topic. Zimmerman has injuries and Martin does not would be very relevant to the police investigation and trying to find out who was the aggressor.[/quote]
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 07, 2012, 06:55:45 PM
Do you know where there is a written transcript?

No Sorry
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 07, 2012, 08:16:11 PM
"The disparity of injury is evidence of an ambush style attack" 

Fair enough, but it's speculative / circumstantial at best.  I personally believe that TM punched GZ in the face and that he was on top of him in John's backyard.  I just don't think GZ is a credible person, so I look for evidence of how the fight started, and find his story wanting. 

One can also speculate and build a circumstantial case that GZ left the innocent path to(wards) his vehicle in an effort to detain the teen.  One story is as good as another, except that Trayvon Martin didn't live to tell his side, and GZ's version of other events is fraught with contradictions and inconsistencies thus throwing suspicion on anything he says, to say nothing of his behavior in regards to his hidden money and hidden passport.   

The Sanford PD never found anything other than GZ's statements to say that this TM was the aggressor up by the T while GZ reached for his cell phone, etc.  In fact, they found seemingly contradictory or inconsistent statements such as he fell backwards to the ground vs. he stumbled forward past TM's position for around 50 feet or so and never seems to have grappled with the teen at all yet somehow they all drop several objects about.  In every telling save one, GZ seems to claim he was sucker punched to the ground where he stood more or less.  The distance from the T to John's back yard will be established by the total station map we are liley to see monday, but IMO it's around 50 feet and that's a fair distance to leave out of a story given all that could happen as the two may have traveled it.  GZ gives an account during the walk thru but not until that time does he ever mention any such travel by the two of them. 

If you say a jury might buy that the disparity of injuries is evidence of an ambush, I'll concede the point, but SPD never seems to have found any witnesses that it happened that way, and plenty of material that suggested that GZ is not a credible person.  They also didn't seem to think his injuries matched his story.   

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 07, 2012, 09:17:19 PM
"The disparity of injury is evidence of an ambush style attack" 

One can also speculate and build a circumstantial case that GZ left the innocent path to(wards) his vehicle in an effort to detain the teen.  One story is as good as another, except that Trayvon Martin didn't live to tell his side, and GZ's version of other events is fraught with contradictions and inconsistencies thus throwing suspicion on anything he says, to say nothing of his behavior in regards to his hidden money and hidden passport.   


You can speculate to your hearts desire. You just can't convict on it.

Quote
The Sanford PD never found anything other than GZ's statements to say that this TM was the aggressor up by the T while GZ reached for his cell phone, etc

Irrelevant . Significantly, the Sanford police admits that they have no evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

Po
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Smellwood on July 07, 2012, 10:59:33 PM
I have a question about the eventual trial. If serino testifies, which I assume he pretty much has to, can O'Mara use his public statements about GZ's version of events being the best evidence and the reasons he gave at the time for not arresting him? Since he said that three days after he filled out the capias request could it be used to question his credibility?
Title: When The Martins Knew
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2012, 12:21:21 AM
The Martins didn't know until they got the cell phone bill,

Do you have evidence for that?

This was discussed on the blog. (http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2012/5/16/22548/2674/11#11)

The SPD asked Tracy Martin for access to the phone records on March 5 (p. 17). (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf)
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2012, 02:28:13 AM
  What he said immediately after that is very telling. 

Do you mean it changed your mind about something? Or do you mean it should convince others of what you already believed?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2012, 02:39:01 AM
  What if they had more time?

I thought the SPD handed the file to the State's Attorney's Office when they decided their investigation was complete. Were they under a time constraint?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2012, 04:02:21 AM
One piece of evidence I found interesting was the portion of the Stress Analysis video where GZ was talking with Singleton and he asked her if she ever had to shoot someone.  She said no.  What he said immediately after that is very telling.

2/27V, 5:09-43, 6:23:46-6:24:21:
Quote
Zimmerman: Have you ever had to shoot anybody?

Singleton: No.

Zimmerman: Good for you.

You're probably stern enough to get the point.

Singleton: I'm sorry?

Zimmerman: You're probably stern enough for it to get the point. You got that -

Singleton: Hmm.

Zimmerman: - authoritative, commanding presence.

Singleton: [Unintelligible] geared up.

Zimmerman: I [unintelligible] you without it. I wouldn't question your authority.

Transcribed by me. Sorry I couldn't do a better job.

I don't agree that it's 'telling.' It's just more fuel for speculation.
Title: Re: The SPD And The Martins
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2012, 04:43:30 AM
The Martins didn't know until they got the cell phone bill

That's not what Crump said at his March 20 presser. (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html)
Quote
Mr. Martin, on Sunday evening, was working with his cell phone account, trying to figure out Trayvon's password. And he looked on it, and he saw who the last person was that Trayvon Martin talked to while he was alive.

Sunday would be March 18. The SPD investigation ended March 13. (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-13/news/os-trayvon-martin-sanford-shooting-20120313_1_young-black-men-gated-community-sanford-church)

You were right about that. Crump claimed the Martins learned about Dee Dee after the SPD investigation was concluded.

The fact remains, the SPD worked on the phone from the beginning. On March 5 they asked for Tracy Martin's cooperation, and were refused.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 08, 2012, 11:26:00 AM
I totally agree with you -- and I think this fits into the "GZ was trying to detain TM" scenario.

But why conclude that Zimmerman commanded Martin to do anything? If that was his goal he could have done it earlier.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: TalkLeft on July 08, 2012, 02:06:17 PM
One piece of evidence I found interesting was the portion of the Stress Analysis video where GZ was talking with Singleton and he asked her if she ever had to shoot someone.  She said no.  What he said immediately after that is very telling.  (I don't have a transcript of that or I would post it but it's worth going back and listening to.)

Your conclusion is unsupported speculation as to Zimmerman's though processes. Certainly not evidence.  You may think it's telling, I doubt anyone other than those who are looking to support their theory GZ committed a crime would agree with you.

It's also off-topic. The topic is what the SFD did or did not do, and what the FDLE did or did not do.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: TalkLeft on July 08, 2012, 02:11:21 PM
"The disparity of injury is evidence of an ambush style attack" 

Fair enough, but it's speculative / circumstantial at best.  I personally believe that TM punched GZ in the face and that he was on top of him in John's backyard.  I just don't think GZ is a credible person, so I look for evidence of how the fight started, and find his story wanting. 

Willis, the thread (which you started) is about what the police did and didn't do in their investigation. Do not use it as a place to advance your personal theory about guilt. You can debate specific evidence on threads about the evidence.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Jujube on July 08, 2012, 02:22:04 PM
It's also off-topic. The topic is what the SFD did or did not do, and what the FDLE did or did not do.

This tape was made on 2/27 at the Voice Stress Analysis.  Wasn't that done by the SFD, not the FDLE?  And wouldn't this tend to support the Prosecution's potential theory? 

Considering it was taped, wouldn't it be evidence?  (I dunno because I'm not a lawyer or in LE.)
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: unitron on July 08, 2012, 03:27:14 PM
The disparity of injury is evidence of an ambush style attack...

It's evidence that Zimmerman didn't put up much of a defense prior to pulling his gun, but it doesn't prove one way or the other why he didn't put up much of a defense.

Maybe he got taken by surprise, maybe he's not particulary skilled or experienced at fighting.

We don't know.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 08, 2012, 03:30:12 PM
Fortunately it is part of a body of evidence about the fight.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: RickyJim on July 08, 2012, 03:53:52 PM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-07/news/os-george-zimmerman-sanford-police-lied-20120707_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-chief-bill-lee-arrest-warrant
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 08, 2012, 04:14:51 PM
Sanford PD got far enough to conclude that GZ had major contradictions and inconsistencies in his statements.  If I need to be politically correct about what they felt about his credibility, I suppose I would say he is "credibility-challenged."  And Sanford PD seemed to agree. 

Leaving his vehicle to "find a street sign" is not against the law, it just flies in the face of the logic suggested by the recorded call, where he says "Sh*t, he's running" and then three seconds later gets out of his car, as he admits in questioning, and also admits on the recording himself that he is following the teen.  GZ sticks to this story even when presented the recording, and that only "proves" he sticks to his story.  If he insists that was the idea in his head, then it's difficult to prove it wasn't.  But it seems clear the investigators felt his credibility was low in that regard, because they all but laughs in his face and asked him if he wanted to change his statement. 

He also claimed that he did not run or jog after the teen, and that the wind blowing is why his phone made the sounds we've all heard.  Who here wants to go on record as saying this is a credible explanation?  Because I don't find it credible.  Common sense has to enter into this discussion at some point. At 7fps he would cover the distance from where he claims he parked to the sidewalk T intersection.  SPD themselves try to work out the timing of his foray from his car to(wards) RVC.  GZ's account comes up wanting in their eyes. 

These of course are only a few of the things that SPD seems to have had difficulty with in believing GZ's story.  There are others. 

I'm not "advancing a personal theory of guilt."  I'm saying in plain language that SPD thought he was not credible in many areas of his statements.  They also clearly had difficulty proving he lied about the fist fight and had a weak case for manslaughter at the time of being relieved of the case by the special prosecutor, who with her investigators came to a different conclusion.  Did SPD miss something?  That's what I started this thread to examine. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: RickyJim on July 08, 2012, 05:33:31 PM
The SPD could have avoided the charge that they were being two faced, Z was innocent to the public and guilty to the prosecutors, if they just kept their mouths publicly shut.  They could have let Wolfinger's office do all the talking.  What did they gain by commenting to the press on what their investigation showed?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: RWright on July 08, 2012, 06:51:35 PM
Hi Willis.


Leaving his vehicle to "find a street sign" is not against the law, it just flies in the face of the logic suggested by the recorded call, where he says "Sh*t, he's running" and then three seconds later gets out of his car, as he admits in questioning, and also admits on the recording himself that he is following the teen.  GZ sticks to this story even when presented the recording, and that only "proves" he sticks to his story. 

It's 8 seconds from "sh*t..." to hearing the car door shut, not three.  Not sure it matters here, but let's have accurate details where we can.  During the phone call, before anyone got shot, it's clear George cannot come up with the name of the street (Twin Trails).  He even starts the conversation saying "the best I can give you" is bla bla Retreat View Circle.  During the walk-through he explains that since he couldn't recall the street name, he walked down the sidewalk to Retreat View... because he knew the name of that street and it was a very short walk from where he was.  It makes more sense than going back to the car and driving. 

That's how I understand it, and it seems to line up nicely with George's statements if you approach them logically.  Yes, he got out and followed Trayvon.  He lost him.  He needed an address for the dispatcher.  He walked over to Retreat View Circle.  Logical and rational, imo.

He also claimed that he did not run or jog after the teen, and that the wind blowing is why his phone made the sounds we've all heard.  Who here wants to go on record as saying this is a credible explanation?  Because I don't find it credible. 

I felt the exact same: He was clearly running by the sound of the wind.  But now I'm fairly certain that's wrong.  Diwataman has challenged anyone who wants to try to duplicate that sound by running.  He's tried; I've tried.  You cannot do it.  However, it's simple to duplicate if you have a breeze to walk into.  Interestingly, if you turn and walk with the breeze the wind noise stops.  This seems to validate George turning back to his truck during the phone call. 

Further, listen carefully to George's words and tone during the wind noises part of the call.  He is a little stressed, no longer in the comfy warmth of a vehicle, out in the elements, but it's very hard to speak as he is while running.  In fact, I cannot do it with any pace.  Maybe he was jogging into the wind (like walking this could duplicate the wind sounds), maybe he was walking briskly (my guess).  So put me on the record not only thinking walking claims are credible, but likely and with fair certainty he was not running. 

I'm not advancing a personal theory of innocence.  I have issues with what I just explained and the timeline.  I do not understand why they met where they did when they did when the both had plenty of time to be some place safer, safer places they were both allegedly trying to get to.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: SuzieTampa on July 08, 2012, 08:00:38 PM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-07/news/os-george-zimmerman-sanford-police-lied-20120707_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-chief-bill-lee-arrest-warrant (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-07/news/os-george-zimmerman-sanford-police-lied-20120707_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-chief-bill-lee-arrest-warrant)
Rene Stutzman writes today: "While publicly saying one thing — that they did not have enough evidence to arrest George Zimmerman — Sanford police did essentially the opposite: filing paperwork saying they had enough to charge him with manslaughter."

I wish her second paragraph had been the response from Lee: "His agency recommended the manslaughter charge on paper, the statement said, because without it, prosecutors would not have taken over the investigation."
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 08, 2012, 09:15:42 PM
Zimmerman doesn't exit his vehicle until the dispatcher asks "which way is he running", upon which Z exits a few seconds later.  My guess would be that was the reason he exited the vehicle right at that time, however he has tried several times unsuccessfully to give his exact location and it was one thing the dispatcher continued to ask.  I'd also guess that he had looked for a street sign around where he was parked and couldn't see one, so it probably was something in his mind to try and find a sign when he could.  Once Martin ran, he had that opportunity.  I do think his exiting his vehicle had a dual purpose both of which were to answer questions the dispatcher had asked, "what address are you parked at" and "which way did he run".  Does it really matter which one he chooses to use as the reason?

As for the "running sound", the noise of the wind occurs almost immediately after the car door closes.  Even if he did run, he wouldn't have been at a full sprint immediately, so the initial noise is most certainly the wind.  Also, Z clearly keeps the phone to his ear talking to the dispatcher, which isn't something someone would do in taking off to run after someone.  Also, the wind gusts were over 20 mph that day coming from the E/NE which would mean the wind was in his face as he walked from his vehicle towards the T meaning the wind sound would be headed right into his phone.  I'm also quite certain 20 mph is much faster than the 5'7", 205 pound man in jeans and boots was going to run, so in my opinion one would need more than wind noise in the phone to reach the conclusion that Z was running at this point.

I also don't see an issue with his story of going to RVC to get an address.  I don't think he said he walked continuously from his vehicle to RVC.  IT sounds like on the call he is banging on something or tapping metal to metal.  I think he has stated that he had a flashlight that wasn't working, so while I don't think its completely clear from his interviews/walk through on the timing of where he was and for how long, I think its quite reasonable to think he saw TM run up the T, so when he got to the T stayed there for some time trying to get his flashlight to work and to see if he could catch a glimpse of the person that ran.  Since he never gave an address to the dispatcher, I think its also reasonable to assume that he didn't make it to RVC while on the phone.  Near the end of the NEN call, the dispatcher sets a meeting place of the mailboxes which aren't that near his location and Z first says OK, but then says can you just have them call me and I'll give them my location.  Since he hasn't given an address yet, I again think its reasonable that this is where he thinls of going to RVC to get the address.  IF he were already close to RVC, he probably would have said gimme a second and I'll have an address for you ,but if hes still hanging out around the T at this point, its probably far enough away to just say have them call me when they get here.

I'll agree that these pieces of his statement are reasonably questioned, but I also think there are reasonable answers that can make them fit the timeline.  Also realize that Z wasn't sitting there rehashing this after studying his NEN call.  He was going over all these from recollection, then when being confronted directly on questioning from police.  Obviously the prosecution is going to attack the things you mention, but now that he has had time to rehash all of the NEN call and thought about where they fit within the actions he recalls that night, his testimony is likely to be much tighter than what we see from the parsing of the many statements he's given to date. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: unitron on July 08, 2012, 09:43:41 PM
Zimmerman doesn't exit his vehicle until the dispatcher asks "which way is he running", upon which Z exits a few seconds later.  My guess would be that was the reason he exited the vehicle right at that time, however he has tried several times unsuccessfully to give his exact location and it was one thing the dispatcher continued to ask.  I'd also guess that he had looked for a street sign around where he was parked and couldn't see one, so it probably was something in his mind to try and find a sign when he could.  Once Martin ran, he had that opportunity.  I do think his exiting his vehicle had a dual purpose both of which were to answer questions the dispatcher had asked, "what address are you parked at" and "which way did he run".  Does it really matter which one he chooses to use as the reason?

As for the "running sound", the noise of the wind occurs almost immediately after the car door closes.  Even if he did run, he wouldn't have been at a full sprint immediately, so the initial noise is most certainly the wind.  Also, Z clearly keeps the phone to his ear talking to the dispatcher, which isn't something someone would do in taking off to run after someone.  Also, the wind gusts were over 20 mph that day coming from the E/NE which would mean the wind was in his face as he walked from his vehicle towards the T meaning the wind sound would be headed right into his phone.  I'm also quite certain 20 mph is much faster than the 5'7", 205 pound man in jeans and boots was going to run, so in my opinion one would need more than wind noise in the phone to reach the conclusion that Z was running at this point.

I also don't see an issue with his story of going to RVC to get an address.  I don't think he said he walked continuously from his vehicle to RVC.  IT sounds like on the call he is banging on something or tapping metal to metal.  I think he has stated that he had a flashlight that wasn't working, so while I don't think its completely clear from his interviews/walk through on the timing of where he was and for how long, I think its quite reasonable to think he saw TM run up the T, so when he got to the T stayed there for some time trying to get his flashlight to work and to see if he could catch a glimpse of the person that ran.  Since he never gave an address to the dispatcher, I think its also reasonable to assume that he didn't make it to RVC while on the phone.  Near the end of the NEN call, the dispatcher sets a meeting place of the mailboxes which aren't that near his location and Z first says OK, but then says can you just have them call me and I'll give them my location.  Since he hasn't given an address yet, I again think its reasonable that this is where he thinls of going to RVC to get the address.  IF he were already close to RVC, he probably would have said gimme a second and I'll have an address for you ,but if hes still hanging out around the T at this point, its probably far enough away to just say have them call me when they get here.

I'll agree that these pieces of his statement are reasonably questioned, but I also think there are reasonable answers that can make them fit the timeline.  Also realize that Z wasn't sitting there rehashing this after studying his NEN call.  He was going over all these from recollection, then when being confronted directly on questioning from police.  Obviously the prosecution is going to attack the things you mention, but now that he has had time to rehash all of the NEN call and thought about where they fit within the actions he recalls that night, his testimony is likely to be much tighter than what we see from the parsing of the many statements he's given to date.


First Zimmerman gets out of his truck and he and the dispatcher have the whole "Are you following him?", "We don't need for you to do that" exchange, and then he asks if Zimmerman wants the responding officer to meet with him, and only after getting an incomprehensible set of directions from Zimmerman does the dispatcher ask in front of which address was he parked, so Zimmerman did not get out of the truck to find some address about which he had not yet been asked.

The sounds of Zimmerman beginning the process of exiting his truck begin too soon to be in response to the dispatcher asking which way Martin was running, so he had already decided to do so in response to some other stimulus.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 08, 2012, 09:52:54 PM
I'll agree that these pieces of his statement are reasonably questioned, but I also think there are reasonable answers that can make them fit the timeline.  Also realize that Z wasn't sitting there rehashing this after studying his NEN call.  He was going over all these from recollection, then when being confronted directly on questioning from police.  Obviously the prosecution is going to attack the things you mention, but now that he has had time to rehash all of the NEN call and thought about where they fit within the actions he recalls that night, his testimony is likely to be much tighter than what we see from the parsing of the many statements he's given to date.

Salient point  :D
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: 11Rand on July 08, 2012, 10:46:27 PM
The sounds of Zimmerman beginning the process of exiting his truck begin too soon to be in response to the dispatcher asking which way Martin was running, so he had already decided to do so in response to some other stimulus.

GZ starts to get out right after the dispatcher says it (you then hear the door handle and the open door bell). To be sure, GZ didn't need much of a prompt because it was only a split second after but technically it was still after. While I believe GZ got out of his vehicle to give the operator information about the specific direction in which TM was running, I agree his desire to find a specific address (RVC) would relate to the end of the NEN call. As you said, GZ had difficulty during the call, more than once actually, verifying where he was (evidently he didn’t know the street name: Twin Trees).
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 09, 2012, 01:48:25 AM
Hi Willis.

It's 8 seconds from "sh*t..." to hearing the car door shut, not three.  Not sure it matters here, but let's have accurate details where we can. 


It's thee seconds until he OPENS the door,signaling his intent to exit the vehicle for whatever reason. Deliberately not mentioning the running teen when describing the reason for getting out of the car seems an act that has meaning to me, so whatever his logic regarding street signs seems secondary to me.  Yes I've always been aware of the logic suggested there but it's only recently that we've seen the whole street sign narrative was the SOLE reason given in the walk thru for exiting the car and that it was coupled with a story about TM doubling back and circling the car, an action that he seemingly contradicts himself regarding when played the recording of his call to dispatch. 

As for the idea thT the wind noise stops when GZ starts to return to(wards) his car it needs to be noted that he claims he's at RVC by then and in order for him to travel that distance in that tine he would have to run very fast to do so, wheras for him to jog to the T he would make it in the right time.  Check toolbox earth yourself. His story is not credible here IMO and the laws of physics seem to be on my side here as well.

"  Yes, he got out and followed Trayvon.  "

But he never offers this.    That's what seems fishy to me.

"he walked over to RVC"

I disagree - he traveld at aprox 7fps to what seems likely to have been at the T and h esays when there he couldn't.see the teen, and then IMO continued to RVC at a different pace,

"  Diwataman has challenged anyone who wants to try to duplicate that sound by running.  He's tried; I've tried.  You cannot do it."

No, YOU did not do it, nor do you know what make and model phone he had, or how he held the phone.  I remain unconvinced by this speculation.

  "However, it's simple to duplicate if you have a breeze to walk into."

"This seems to validate George turning back to his truck during the phone call."

Except of course for the timing of the "missing minutes."
 :)
"So put me on the record not only thinking walking claims are credible, but likely and with fair certainty he was not running.  "

So noted, but he darn sure didnt walk to RVC in the time he suggests.  Not possible given his legs. 

"I'm not advancing a personal theory of innocence.  I have issues with what I just explained and the timeline."

Also noted.

Google earth path tool is what I meant to tyPe above- posting from a cell phone here.  Please excuse the typos
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: AJ on July 09, 2012, 03:26:39 AM
Deliberately not mentioning the running teen when describing the reason for getting out of the car  seems an act that has meaning to me, so whatever his logic regarding street signs seems secondary to me
Quote
1:27 Dispatcher: "Just let me know if he does anything okay?"
1:28 Zimmerman: "Just get an officer over here."
1:29 Dispatcher: "Yeah, we got them on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else."
1:34 Zimmerman: "Mkay." (seems distracted)
... (Zimmerman describing how to get to his location)
2:04 Zimmerman: "... Uh yeah, you go straight in, dont turn and make a left -- sh*t he's running."
2:06 Dispatcher: "He's running? Which way is he running?"

How does the logic work in your theory here? He doesn't recall following Mr. Martin, and he was asked to keep the dispatcher abreast of what was happening... so that must be the primary reason for getting out of the vehicle? Whether you believe him or not I think you're borderline absurd with this assertion. I don't know many people who forget the primary reason they do something when they do it for multiple reasons.


Quote
Yes I've always been aware of the logic suggested there but it's only recently that we've seen the whole street sign narrative

We've known about this since late March, if not earlier. I don't like linking to this source, but it's a source none the less: http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-father-speaks-trayvon-martin-case-video

Quote
As for the idea thT the wind noise stops when GZ starts to return to(wards) his car it needs to be noted that he claims he's at RVC by then and in order for him to travel that distance in that tine he would have to run very fast to do so, wheras for him to jog to the T he would make it in the right time.  Check toolbox earth yourself. His story is not credible here IMO and the laws of physics seem to be on my side here as well.

What speed measurements are you using? The accepted 5km/hr average walking speed? Just wanting to verify because you said 7fps which is nearly twice the accepted average walking speed in fps - which is too slow for jogging, it would be more of a "walking fast" speed. Try this one, from the time that the wind stops (2:41 - indicating he has turned) until you hear him tapping on his flash light trying to get it to turn on (2:46, my assumption - three clicking sounds and it matches with Mr. Zimmerman saying his flashlight was dead, when a flashlight is dead most people bang on it a few times) how far could he have gone? If you're using the 5km/hr speed that is widely accepted then he could've traveled 22.785 feet, which would've put him near the west corner of the building if he were heading west and started at the curb on the east side. What laws of physics are you applying and how?

You're paying too much attention to the words and not enough attention to the background noises in the non-emergency call. The background noises tell a story of their own, if you allow them to. Another example I could point out is the whole "he was at the clubhouse when he was circled" theory. You can hear the vehicle being put into drive. You can hear the turn signal when he makes the right hand turn (assumed, I don't think he would've turned it on for the dogleg but not the optional direction change - you hear it for one or the other). You can hear the vehicle being put into park - which is right around the time when Mr. Martin would've come to circle him based on the information in the call.

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: unitron on July 09, 2012, 05:55:43 AM
Not remembering the next day his primary, if not only, reason for having done something the night before does not change, or reduce in importance, that reason.  If Martin had survived and woke up in the hospital thinking he should have $45 dollars in his pants pockets because he can no longer remember spending $5 at the 7-11, he's still only going to have $40.

As for the getting out being because of the dispatcher's question instead of Martin's increased forward velocity, no one's reflexes are that fast.  He got out because "S***, he's running".
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 09, 2012, 11:03:51 AM
It's 8 seconds from "sh*t..." to hearing the car door shut, not three.

3 seconds. I just listened to the call.

The sh*te line is much more casual than than  "These arseholes". Did TM  start to walk towards the T at that point,  then  speed up to faster paste? How did Z see TM enter the backyard, come back out, circlle the Zmobile
take off running, but lose sight of exactly where he had just seen TM?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: unitron on July 09, 2012, 11:51:03 AM
It's 8 seconds from "sh*t..." to hearing the car door shut, not three.

3 seconds. I just listened to the call.

The sh*te line is much more casual than than  "These arseholes". Did TM  start to walk towards the T at that point,  then  speed up to faster paste? How did Z see TM enter the backyard, come back out, circlle the Zmobile
take off running, but lose sight of exactly where he had just seen TM?

At 2:07 into the call he says he's running, at 2:10 you hear the door open, at 2:14 you hear it get slammed shut.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 09, 2012, 12:30:36 PM

First Zimmerman gets out of his truck and he and the dispatcher have the whole "Are you following him?", "We don't need for you to do that" exchange, and then he asks if Zimmerman wants the responding officer to meet with him, and only after getting an incomprehensible set of directions from Zimmerman does the dispatcher ask in front of which address was he parked, so Zimmerman did not get out of the truck to find some address about which he had not yet been asked.

The sounds of Zimmerman beginning the process of exiting his truck begin too soon to be in response to the dispatcher asking which way Martin was running, so he had already decided to do so in response to some other stimulus.

The conversation taking place right before Z says "sh!t, he's running" is Z trying to relay where he's located (he does not have an address).  While I totally agree that his movement is reactionary to TM taking off running, his thoughts/conversation right at the time TM takes off running is about providing his location, so I think its reasonable that he recalls getting out to get a street name/address because thats what he was discussing when he got out of the vehicle and what he ultimately says he ended up doing after ending the call with the dispatcher.   It doesn't sound like he runs after TM, so it doesn't seem like his intent is to follow/chase because you can't really follow someone who is running by walking and talking to a dispatcher.  Obviously Z does respond to the dispatchers question that he is following TM, but I think his explanation was that he was following the path that TM took, not that he was able to keep a visual and follow while walking after someone who was running away.

I do think this is a fair statement to try and attack, but whether he gets out of his vehicle to find the street name/address or to see if he can tell where TM ran off to, doesn't change any legal aspect of the case. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: unitron on July 09, 2012, 01:22:49 PM
The conversation taking place right before Z says "sh!t, he's running" is Z trying to relay where he's located (he does not have an address).  While I totally agree that his movement is reactionary to TM taking off running, his thoughts/conversation right at the time TM takes off running is about providing his location, so I think its reasonable that he recalls getting out to get a street name/address because thats what he was discussing when he got out of the vehicle and what he ultimately says he ended up doing after ending the call with the dispatcher.   It doesn't sound like he runs after TM, so it doesn't seem like his intent is to follow/chase because you can't really follow someone who is running by walking and talking to a dispatcher.  Obviously Z does respond to the dispatchers question that he is following TM, but I think his explanation was that he was following the path that TM took, not that he was able to keep a visual and follow while walking after someone who was running away.

I do think this is a fair statement to try and attack, but whether he gets out of his vehicle to find the street name/address or to see if he can tell where TM ran off to, doesn't change any legal aspect of the case.

Before the dispatcher says "Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?", Zimmerman's trying to give them Martin's whereabouts, not his own.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 10, 2012, 11:43:11 PM
Dispatch: is he by the clubhouse now?
GZ: yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Where did SPD place this exchange?  Where did GZ say it took place? 

GZ claims he was directed by dispatch to move from the clubhouse parking lot to a position where he could
 see the teen.  Did SPD think he was telling the truth?  Where was GZ when he started speaking to Sean the dispatcher?  If he was at his final spot parked by the cut thru, what's up with his memory of being asked to move to where he could see, and his recollections when played the recording, where he repeatedly says he's by the clubhouse?  Why did he seemingly mark the map at the first bend in TTL just south of the mailboxes and then cross it out seconds later?

How did SPD think the two traveled between the clubhouse vicinity and the cut thru area? GZ claims he moved without seeing TM travel from RVC to the cut thru except what little he may have seen from the clubhouse 4660 beechnut st. #239parking lot.  IMO Chris Serino felt GZ chased TM with his car down TTL, causing TM to run.  That's what he's likely hinting at in the final interview IMO.   GZ doesn't take the suggestion to amend his statements.  Why did they offer him the opportunity and why did he refuse?    Shortly before this final interview GZ told SPD that TM approached his car in a doubling back/circling move from the cut thru area, and recalls the specific detail of telling dispatch that TM had his hand in his waistband. 

Given GZs contradictions about where he was when TM approaches his car,  who was right? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 11, 2012, 08:57:59 AM
Before the dispatcher says "Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?", Zimmerman's trying to give them Martin's whereabouts, not his own.

Before Z says "sh!t he's running", he is giving directions to where he is located, which by his description on the phone is the same location of TM at that time.  My impression of the call you reference, when the officer asks if he wants to meet the officer, is that Z no longer knew where TM was ("he ran") and he no longer describes anything about TM the rest of the call.  The dispatcher follows up the question of wanting to meet the officer with where to meet them at, Z describes how they would com through the front entrance  to get to his truck, not the back entrance and where he last saw TM running towards.  Other than saying TM ran towards the back entrance, he gives no other directions on where TM might be after he ran.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: unitron on July 11, 2012, 09:13:37 AM
Before Z says "sh!t he's running", he is giving directions to where he is located, which by his description on the phone is the same location of TM at that time.  My impression of the call you reference, when the officer asks if he wants to meet the officer, is that Z no longer knew where TM was ("he ran") and he no longer describes anything about TM the rest of the call.  The dispatcher follows up the question of wanting to meet the officer with where to meet them at, Z describes how they would com through the front entrance  to get to his truck, not the back entrance and where he last saw TM running towards.  Other than saying TM ran towards the back entrance, he gives no other directions on where TM might be after he ran.

Before Martin runs, Zimmerman is not trying to give directions to where the police can find Zimmerman, he's trying to give directions to where they can find Martin.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 11, 2012, 09:42:47 AM
Before Z says "sh!t he's running", he is giving directions to where he is located, which by his description on the phone is the same location of TM at that time.  My impression of the call you reference, when the officer asks if he wants to meet the officer, is that Z no longer knew where TM was ("he ran") and he no longer describes anything about TM the rest of the call.  The dispatcher follows up the question of wanting to meet the officer with where to meet them at, Z describes how they would com through the front entrance  to get to his truck, not the back entrance and where he last saw TM running towards.  Other than saying TM ran towards the back entrance, he gives no other directions on where TM might be after he ran.


That's a very good point. If he intended to pursue Martin ( who was presumably attempting to flee the complex) why not have the squad car meet him at the back entrance.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: DarkSkiesRbest on July 11, 2012, 09:36:43 PM
I think you are reading too much into GZ responding "yes" to is he by the clubhouse. I believe TM was at the sidewalk at that point and GZ was concentrating on him just after trying to tell the dispatcher where the clubhouse was. He just said "yes" rather than clarify he was beyond the clubhouse is all.
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
 Dispatcher: Okay. You said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
 Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse... [Note 3, 3rd picture]
 Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
 Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 12, 2012, 05:16:35 AM
I think you are reading too much into GZ responding "yes" to is he by the clubhouse. I believe TM was at the sidewalk at that point and GZ was concentrating on him just after trying to tell the dispatcher where the clubhouse was. He just said "yes" rather than clarify he was beyond the clubhouse is all.
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
 Dispatcher: Okay. You said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
 Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse... [Note 3, 3rd picture]
 Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
 Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

I don't know how we can read 'too much' into this. George says there's a suspicious person, and the first point of reference he gives is....the Clubhouse. Clearly, Martin has to be near the Clubhouse, and when asked, George says yes to exactly that question: Martin's near the Clubhouse, coming towards him.

I can't make up any scenario that has George giving the Clubhouse address if either Martin, George, or both weren't relatively near the Clubhouse.
George doesn't mention anything about going -past- the Clubhouse until 01:40 into the call.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: ding7777 on July 12, 2012, 06:29:54 AM
Are there any crime scene photos showing the parked truck?

Did the SFPD question anyone regarding the exact location/direction of the parked  truck?  Shelia Zimmerman or the various witnesses? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 12, 2012, 06:35:45 AM
If TM circled the truck at the clubhouse, the situation was even more perilous for GZ. TM walks to the sidewalk area, enters it, reemerges, walks toward GZ, who backs up all the way to the clubhouse where TM eventually circles him then runs. GZ leaps out of his truck parked by the cut through. HUH?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: 11Rand on July 12, 2012, 05:56:31 PM
As for the getting out being because of the dispatcher's question instead of Martin's increased forward velocity, no one's reflexes are that fast.  He got out because "S***, he's running".

Try this: “He's running? Which way[?]” OR “He's running? Which way[Start processing question now!]'s he running?” Finish processing question now! Act: open door, and get out of car.

See, perfectly normal reflexes.  :)
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 13, 2012, 01:38:09 PM
I think you are reading too much into GZ responding "yes" to is he by the clubhouse. I believe TM was at the sidewalk at that point and GZ was concentrating on him just after trying to tell the dispatcher where the clubhouse was. He just said "yes" rather than clarify he was beyond the clubhouse is all.
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
 Dispatcher: Okay. You said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
 Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse... [Note 3, 3rd picture]
 Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
 Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

So a jury will just need to understand that when GZ said "yes"he meant "no." check. 

And when GZ was played the recording and repeatedly said he was "at the clubhouse" he was mistaken as well?  Or can he see around corners? 

I think a jury will be shown the map he personally marked that shows a position just south of the clubhouse thT would suffice for his answer, remove contradictions and easily fit the timeline AND explain the element that GZ leaves out when he claims  TM doubled back to circle his car at the final position he claims as his second and final position: that the teen ran away.  IMO the idea that TM circled GZs car makes no sense and cannot be resolved with the recording unless you can get a jury to agree to the yes means no and "I'm still by the
clubhouse" is a false memory he refused to shake even when repeatedly offered the chance.

Mark o'Mara certainly has his work cut out for him. Good thing he has George to call to the stand if he needs help getting the jury to see all this makes more sense than my speculation that GZ pushed a false narrative to hide a car to pedestrian "chase" in slow motion down TTL, a scenario that removes in onsidtencies and contradictions and explains inconsistencies and isn't even a crime in and of itself...

BTW, where was George when he said yes but meant no? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: turbo6 on July 13, 2012, 08:45:54 PM
IMO Chris Serino felt GZ chased TM with his car down TTL, causing TM to run.  That's what he's likely hinting at in the final interview IMO.   GZ doesn't take the suggestion to amend his statements.  Why did they offer him the opportunity and why did he refuse?    Shortly before this final interview GZ told SPD that TM approached his car in a doubling back/circling move from the cut thru area, and recalls the specific detail of telling dispatch that TM had his hand in his waistband. 

With the context of the non emergency call, I can't really imagine at any point he chased him with his car in any sort of reckless manner. There's no engine roar, wind noise, etc. Plus, if GZ was visibly speeding towards Martin, would he have have likely returned to the vehicle? He probably would have just kept running.

I tend to take the NE call for what it is, GZ had no idea what was going to happen and had no reason to lie at that point. He's no criminal mastermind who is trying to craft an alibi after he just spotted the kid minutes beforehand.

Zimmerman at times seems pretty scattered brained in his recollections, but honestly in that sense he is basically like every other person I've known with ADD. To me, his events leading to exiting the truck seem to line up given that he probably dialed the number to dispatch while at or possibly departing the clubhouse and connected while driving down or parking his truck on TTL.

The part of the NE call that always stuck out to me is when he purportedly asked the dispatcher "How long until you get an officer over here?". His tone is obviously distressed and uncomfortable. Regardless if GZ followed him slowly or quickly in his car, TM was clearly unfazed and became close enough to clearly unnerve GZ.


Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 14, 2012, 06:41:35 AM
The part of the NE call that always stuck out to me is when he purportedly asked the dispatcher "How long until you get an officer over here?". His tone is obviously distressed and uncomfortable. Regardless if GZ followed him slowly or quickly in his car, TM was clearly unfazed and became close enough to clearly unnerve GZ.
This strikes me as something the defense will most definitely NOT want to bring up at trial....
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: cboldt on July 14, 2012, 07:15:57 AM
This strikes me as something the defense will most definitely NOT want to bring up at trial....

I recall this being discussed previously, at some length.  Zimmerman's state of mind can change, depending on the circumstances.  When Martin is coming closer and maybe engaging in a bit of visual bravado (staring, for example), Zimmerman might be unnerved by a sense of impending unwanted interaction or contact with the stranger.  When Martin runs away, Zimmerman can be relieved, on belief that the risk of interaction or contact has passed.

My point being that defense should not be uncomfortable bringing up Zimmerman's state of mind and intentions at various points of the timeline.  I think it's true that Zimmerman himself said he had fear at some points before the physical struggle started, and it's better for him to explain what gave him the sense of fear, and if the fear passed, when and why it passed.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: turbo6 on July 14, 2012, 05:40:48 PM
To me it seems pretty reasonable GZ, as soon as he exited the truck, that he never really anticipated getting any closer than 50 yards to him. We'll never really know but, I can't imagine TM was pussy footing around when he cut the corner and took off. He likely bolted and Zimmerman probably knew in the back of his mind he'd never catch him but maybe at the very least catch a glimpse of him running out the back entrance or whatever.

He clearly treated this for what he thought this was, just another guy possibly committing some burglaries. He called the cops, kept an eye on him and assumed, like every other one, he would simply run far away when spooked. What potential thief would possibly want a confrontation if they were casing/burglarizing a house? The only problem is GZ was wrong on two things....1) he was not (likely) a burglar 2) he was not planning on running that far.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 15, 2012, 01:06:29 PM
To me it seems pretty reasonable GZ, as soon as he exited the truck, that he never really anticipated getting any closer than 50 yards to him. We'll never really know but, I can't imagine TM was pussy footing around when he cut the corner and took off. He likely bolted and Zimmerman probably knew in the back of his mind he'd never catch him but maybe at the very least catch a glimpse of him running out the back entrance or whatever.

He clearly treated this for what he thought this was, just another guy possibly committing some burglaries. He called the cops, kept an eye on him and assumed, like every other one, he would simply run far away when spooked. What potential thief would possibly want a confrontation if they were casing/burglarizing a house? The only problem is GZ was wrong on two things....1) he was not (likely) a burglar 2) he was not planning on running that far.


This is a good point.  But at trial, the prosecution wants the jury to see that GZ sought a confrontation and everything they argue will have that idea tied to it, true or not.  GZ cannot account for his "missing minutes" except to say he was already at RVC and that he was trying to fix his flashlight the whole while. The prosecution will attack his credibility and say in a general sense that he pursued the teen, confronted the teen and shot the teen and use his IMP damaged credibility to question his excuses, real or false for his pursuit.  Other than his own word, there is no absolute proof or witness that can confirm the fight started where or how GZ claims, and that's less than ideal for the defense.  It doesn't mean the prosecution has an airtight case, but SO FAR that seems to be their general strategy.  We don't yet know what else they may or may not have to get all the way to M2 beyond a reasonable doubt but GZ has to bet the next 40 years or so on the idea that "they got nothing" when IMO they have his credibility damaged for certain in regards to other aspects of the evening, most notably his movements from the clubhouse to getting out of his car to his walk to wherever he says he was when he told the dispatcher "he ran."  Major contradictions in all that IMO, and I've yet to see them refuted here, IMO. 
 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 15, 2012, 01:58:34 PM
We are using GZ's statements, delivered in an void, as the defenses reconstruction of events.

It's far more likely that the defense will construct a scenario that is the referential backbone of their case.
That back bone will allow them to dispel or dismiss  discrepancies between GZ's contemporaneous statements and the evidence. If GZ had kept quiet of course the defense wouldn't need to spend time on the discrepancies.

However the salient issue is 'did GZ reasonably fear serious bodily harm'?  Even only relying on the prosecution evidence, it seems to me  that he did.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 15, 2012, 04:39:50 PM
The disparity of injury is evidence of an ambush style attack. It's not really honest to make a claim about the evidence (i.e. "injuries that GZ may or may not have suffered at the hands of Trayvon Martin") and then pretend that it's off-topic. Zimmerman has injuries and Martin does not would be very relevant to the police investigation and trying to find out who was the aggressor.

So do you feel the SPD felt that GZ's injuries matched his description of the altercation?  And, a bonus question - if GZ ran into a tree on his accord, or crashed into a hedge while attempting to detain TM, might he have injuries like small cuts on his face and a broken nose?  What if he slipped on the wet grass and fell on his face on the sidewalk?

I don't doubt that TM was on top of GZ in John's back yard.  That part was witnessed.  I just don't see why SPD has to believe how GZ said the fight started when they caught him in obvious contradictions elsewhere.  Contradictions usually mean that one or BOTH of the contradictory claims are lies.  Liars have no credibility.  IMO the SPD considered GZ's statements as inconsistent, contradictory and "scripted," at least in the opinion of the lead investigator. 

Martin may not have injuries as a result of having GZ's hands clutching his body tightly so he could not run away the whole time.  That's as good of an explanation as George's.  The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time.  Was he hitting GZ?  Where does he make that claim?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 15, 2012, 07:54:04 PM
We are using GZ's statements, delivered in an void, as the defenses reconstruction of events.

It's far more likely that the defense will construct a scenario that is the referential backbone of their case.
That back bone will allow them to dispel or dismiss  discrepancies between GZ's contemporaneous statements and the evidence. If GZ had kept quiet of course the defense wouldn't need to spend time on the discrepancies.

However the salient issue is 'did GZ reasonably fear serious bodily harm'?  Even only relying on the prosecution evidence, it seems to me  that he did.

In other words they will make up a new version of what they claim happened!?!?  Wouldn't that just introduce more contradictions?  Please give examples of how this helps the defense.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 15, 2012, 08:18:42 PM
So do you feel the SPD felt that GZ's injuries matched his description of the altercation?  And, a bonus question - if GZ ran into a tree on his accord, or crashed into a hedge while attempting to detain TM, might he have injuries like small cuts on his face and a broken nose?  What if he slipped on the wet grass and fell on his face on the sidewalk?

I don't doubt that TM was on top of GZ in John's back yard.  That part was witnessed.  I just don't see why SPD has to believe how GZ said the fight started when they caught him in obvious contradictions elsewhere.  Contradictions usually mean that one or BOTH of the contradictory claims are lies.  Liars have no credibility.  IMO the SPD considered GZ's statements as inconsistent, contradictory and "scripted," at least in the opinion of the lead investigator. 

Martin may not have injuries as a result of having GZ's hands clutching his body tightly so he could not run away the whole time.  That's as good of an explanation as George's.  The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time.  Was he hitting GZ?  Where does he make that claim?


Once again you favor speculation over evidence . Zimmerman's statements are evidence. You think that they are without value based on a few minor inconsistencies between his various statements and some minor discrepancies between the evidence and his statements. I disagree on the value a jury will assign to his  voluntary statements , given without benefit of consul and before he had any real idea about what evidence was available other than his recollection.

What is your evidence you used to determine that GZ tried to detain TM or ran into a tree?
If you can't cite any then its SPECULATION.
Got one any new ones featuring little green men?
 
Quote
The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time. 
That's a fact?
Its an opinion I think. I wouldn't disagree with a fact.

Or is a fact an opinion that you  stubbornly cling to in the face of any and all reasonable explanations?

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Philly on July 15, 2012, 09:02:22 PM
A few weeks ago while mowing the lawn, I unknowingly passed over a nest of yellow jackets.  I screamed and told my my spouse that I must have been stung at least 20 times.  Later, when counting the actual strings, we spotted only 5 visible wounds.  Fortunately for me, my spouse accepted this inconsistency and didn't accuse me of having stabbed myself with a pencil 5 times.

My silly analogy aside, based on the actual testimony and evidence, in my opinion it is beyond absurd to think that GZ might have ran into a tree or hedge on his own accord, sustained injuries of this type only to his face, and still somehow managed to catch up to Trayvon only to awkwardly detain him by dragging him to the ground and clutching him so that the 17 year old couldn't escape.

So do you feel the SPD felt that GZ's injuries matched his description of the altercation?  And, a bonus question - if GZ ran into a tree on his accord, or crashed into a hedge while attempting to detain TM, might he have injuries like small cuts on his face and a broken nose?  What if he slipped on the wet grass and fell on his face on the sidewalk?

I don't doubt that TM was on top of GZ in John's back yard.  That part was witnessed.  I just don't see why SPD has to believe how GZ said the fight started when they caught him in obvious contradictions elsewhere.  Contradictions usually mean that one or BOTH of the contradictory claims are lies.  Liars have no credibility.  IMO the SPD considered GZ's statements as inconsistent, contradictory and "scripted," at least in the opinion of the lead investigator. 

Martin may not have injuries as a result of having GZ's hands clutching his body tightly so he could not run away the whole time.  That's as good of an explanation as George's.  The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time.  Was he hitting GZ?  Where does he make that claim?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 15, 2012, 09:26:44 PM
  The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time. 

I think this has been proven to be inaccurate.  First, TM's feet are roughly 30' from the T and it had fallen off of George and been rolled over to perform live saving measures meaning it could have been another 5' or so closer when the shot occurred.  Also, I don't recall Z ever saying where he fell is where the struggle stayed with no movement.  John saw them outside for what ,5-10 seconds and he has them moving from the grass to the concrete and its clear it moved back to the grass before the shot.  The witness on the end unit seems to describe a slow moving conflict with what sounded like wrestling on the ground and cries for help. 

Seems to me most of the evidence has Z getting struck by the T, stumbling south (the way the land flows) and as he stumbled, TM got on top.  The exact distance of this first event is unknown, but I'd guess this put them somewhere behind the end unit witnesses or about 10-15 feet from the T.  The fight then moves another 15-20 feet over the next minute or so.  IT really doesn't seem all that difficult to believe that the bodies moved this far on the ground over this amount of time.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 15, 2012, 10:38:25 PM
I think this has been proven to be inaccurate.  First, TM's feet are roughly 30' from the T and it had fallen off of George and been rolled over to perform live saving measures meaning it could have been another 5' or so closer when the shot occurred.  Also, I don't recall Z ever saying where he fell is where the struggle stayed with no movement.  John saw them outside for what ,5-10 seconds and he has them moving from the grass to the concrete and its clear it moved back to the grass before the shot.  The witness on the end unit seems to describe a slow moving conflict with what sounded like wrestling on the ground and cries for help. 

Seems to me most of the evidence has Z getting struck by the T, stumbling south (the way the land flows) and as he stumbled, TM got on top.  The exact distance of this first event is unknown, but I'd guess this put them somewhere behind the end unit witnesses or about 10-15 feet from the T.  The fight then moves another 15-20 feet over the next minute or so.  IT really doesn't seem all that difficult to believe that the bodies moved this far on the ground over this amount of time.
Thanks

On this site  have given three examples out  of literally hundreds that I witnessed of combatants and contestants being driven stumbling for at least 18 ft ( the typical size of a boxing ring square).

For some reason some posters here have decided that rather than question or discuss my observations they would simply ignore them. Any one I have queried that has witnessed or been involved in martial arts or football find the denials amusing.

I can only conclude that reality is sometimes inconvenient.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Juan on July 15, 2012, 11:22:47 PM
So do you feel the SPD felt that GZ's injuries matched his description of the altercation? And, a bonus question - if GZ ran into a tree on his accord, or crashed into a hedge while attempting to detain TM, might he have injuries like small cuts on his face and a broken nose?  What if he slipped on the wet grass and fell on his face on the sidewalk?

I don't doubt that TM was on top of GZ in John's back yard.  That part was witnessed.  I just don't see why SPD has to believe how GZ said the fight started when they caught him in obvious contradictions elsewhere.  Contradictions usually mean that one or BOTH of the contradictory claims are lies.  Liars have no credibility.  IMO the SPD considered GZ's statements as inconsistent, contradictory and "scripted," at least in the opinion of the lead investigator. 

Martin may not have injuries as a result of having GZ's hands clutching his body tightly so he could not run away the whole time.  That's as good of an explanation as George's.  The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time.  Was he hitting GZ?  Where does he make that claim?

Yes. The lead investigator even wrote that GZ's injuries were consistent with a life threatening violent encounter. No mention of the absurd notion of a tree or hedge being responsible.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 16, 2012, 12:54:12 AM

Once again you favor speculation over evidence . Zimmerman's statements are evidence.

Statements introduced by either the defense or the prosecution are indeed classified as evidence at trial.  When these statements are contradictory, and inconsistent, and form a pattern that can be demonstrated to a jury that suggests the person who made the statements had an agenda to mislead investigators, that's a problem for the defense.  IMO George has that problem in spades.  And evidence in the form of statements to investigators is either determined by a jury to be true or to be false. That's what juries do, they weigh evidence to establish facts.  "Evidence" of this sort is not the same thing as "fact" until a jury sees it as such after hearing arguments and deliberating.   I fear you are conflating the two. 

Quote
You think that they are without value based on a few minor inconsistencies between his various statements and some minor discrepancies between the evidence and his statements. I disagree on the value a jury will assign to his  voluntary statements , given without benefit of consul and before he had any real idea about what evidence was available other than his recollection.



Please don't put words in my mouth.  I feel that GZ's contradictions are major and the discrepancies are significant.  Clearly you and I disagree about this, but so be it. 

George's story is just that  - his story in his own words about his actions that night.  You can put a silk dress and lipstick on a sow, but all you have is a dressed-up pig.  Lawyer or no lawyer, they are his words freely given shortly after the events occurred with no coercion or promises given to do anything but use them against him in a court of law.  GZ read and signed a Miranda card, so whatever qualifications you care to put on his statements IMO will go nowhere fast in a court of law.  Please cite precedent if you think GZ has some wiggle room regarding his statements and what they represent other than his own words freely given. 

Where was George when he said this to dispatch?

Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

The reason I'd like to know your opinion on this is because this is a "discrepancy," it seems, between what he claims happened as he was parked by the cut thru path, where he describes TM doubling back to circle his car, and between what he claims both in the recording AND what he told investigators repeatedly when played the recording, which IMO is that he was parked, not moving, and his car and he were "by the clubhouse" as was Trayvon Martin.   And this "discrepancy" as you call it, is either major or minor, because it concerns the idea that TM stopped fleeing or walking to return and visually confront GZ by deliberately circling his car for no apparent reason other than to signal his displeasure or what have you, a distance of some 400 feet or more IMO.  And George is either telling the truth or he is lying when he said it.  And in one version, he claimed he was in one place and in the other version he claims he was elsewhere.  That's more along the lines of what I'd call a contradiction than a discrepancy, by the way but if you want to use that term that's okay with me, because either position as he gave it makes for an "inconsistency" when you compare it to the recorded call to dispatch.  In other words, both versions don't conform.  IMO a jury is going to see that he is lying, and is a liar and has no credibility and so on and thus and such.  Because that's what the prosecution will call him, and the defense IMO lacks a coherent explanation for these discrepancies and inconsistencies and yes, contradictions where both choice A and choice B don't stand up in court, IMO.  Perhaps you could explain how all this will be seen as minor, but thus far no one I have read on this board has been able to. 

IMO doubling back some 200 feet to circle someone's car is a deliberately hostile act, and a jury would have to weigh that as such if they thought it happened.  The difficulty is, however, that it doesn't seem to have happened in the manner George says it did if it happened at all, since his call was recorded and the timing simply doesn't work with either position he's claimed, IMO unless you care to change that opinion by explaining how it fits. 

Quote
What is your evidence you used to determine that GZ tried to detain TM or ran into a tree?

The evidence I used to determine GZ tried to detain Trayon is Trayvon's dead body.  TM sought to go home, he told his girlfriend that in so many words and she will testify as much I think if and when a trial occurs, and Trayvon did not reach home.  Circumstantial evidence in the form of a scattered debris field, more inconsistent statements from GZ regarding the way the fight started and testimony from Dee Dee all support this argument.  GZ can make his claim that he was assaulted but lacking credibility IMO a jury will not put any weight to the idea. 

Here is what he said happened the first time he talked to investigator Singleton:
"I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time"
"as soon as he punched me I fell backwards into the grass."
"and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…"

Here is what he told the stress test administrator:
"and he just punched me in the nose, and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up on top of me" 

And yes, the defense can argue GZ was under duress or had a bad memory or takes little pills that make his head funny, or whatever, but IMO that in NOT a consistent account that agrees with what he said and did during the walk thru videotaped  "re-eneactment," where GZ says "I guess I stumbled,etc"  Instead I'd say the jury might conclude that the punch that put GZ on the ground in John's back yard took place in John's back yard, not up on the cut thru sidewalk.  And that for him to be there when that happened means GZ is once again pushing a false narrative to conceal the truth from investigators about how he came to be there on the dog walk path, so far south of the path to(wards) his truck. 

As for running into the tree etc, yes it is speculation - vs lies IMO since the idea that he was hit and then stumbled to John's yard is at best an inconsistent statement by a man with motive to lie, and a history of lies and nothing more that that, which is worse than speculation.   Speculation might be true, but lies are always lies.  GZ may have been struck by Trayvon Martin but IMO and in GZ's opinion on the majority of his own statements it doesn't seem to have happened where he says it did or else the body would be up near the T. 

Quote
If you can't cite any then its SPECULATION.
Got one any new ones featuring little green men?
 That's a fact?
Its an opinion I think. I wouldn't disagree with a fact.

You want to weigh "evidence" as fact when it is not established as such by any means.  It's evidence that GZ gives inconsistent accounts and contradictory statements.  IMO that's proof of a lack of credibility not self defense. 

Quote
Or is a fact an opinion that you stubbornly cling to in the face of any and all reasonable explanations?

I'm much more likely to call something you claim "reasonable" when you tell me where GZ was when TM approached his car, and which version of how the fight started is the only right one and why the other versions seem to differ.  Did GZ go forward or back when he was punched?  What did Trayvon do while George stumbled to Johns' yard?  That's around twenty steps IMO.  George pantomimes open faces slaps in his "reenactment" but seems unsure about what happened, or if he was pushed or fell in the end.  Why now is he so uncertain when before he knew which way he fell and that it was "at that point," and "as soon as he punched me" etc.  I don't find him credible.  And I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation from anyone on TalkLeft for where he was when he said:
 
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Juan on July 16, 2012, 01:41:11 AM
Willis, you say, "TM sought to go home, he told his girlfriend that in so many words". If that's the case why did he not do that in the time he had after losing GZ ? The evidence suggests he didn't avail himself of the opportunity to continue on for another 70 yards. Instead he chose to either lie in wait or return to the "T" to confront & assault GZ putting him in fear for his life. As a result he was killed by GZ in self defense. If you can produce evidence to the contrary, please do. Harping on "inconsistencies" of what transpired before the action of self defense is not evidence to contradict it or are your absurd suppositions. Can you prove it was not self defense beyond any & all reasonable doubt ? You haven't come close & I doubt you can.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 02:25:17 AM
Thanks

On this site  have given three examples out  of literally hundreds that I witnessed of combatants and contestants being driven stumbling for at least 18 ft ( the typical size of a boxing ring square).

For some reason some posters here have decided that rather than question or discuss my observations they would simply ignore them. Any one I have queried that has witnessed or been involved in martial arts or football find the denials amusing.

I can only conclude that reality is sometimes inconvenient.
And at a minimum, George had to have 'stumbled' at least DOUBLE that distance, yet not only failed to mention it until on the scene, he claimed to have been knocked 'back in to the grass' with the first punch.

He further claims to have stumbled directly south down the footpath, when he was approached from the south-east, said he back east towards his truck when Martin appeared, and was punched in the face from said Martin which should have pushed him back further to the east/north-east.

The only 'reality' that's inconvenient is George's.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: unitron on July 16, 2012, 02:44:48 AM
And at a minimum, George had to have 'stumbled' at least DOUBLE that distance, yet not only failed to mention it until on the scene, he claimed to have been knocked 'back in to the grass' with the first punch.

He further claims to have stumbled directly south down the footpath, when he was approached from the south-east, said he back east towards his truck when Martin appeared, and was punched in the face from said Martin which should have pushed him back further to the east/north-east.

The only 'reality' that's inconvenient is George's.

You sure you haven't said east when you mean west there a couple of times?

Towards the truck from the "T" is west.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 02:47:49 AM
Yes. That's what I get for posting before I've had my cup of coffee.

So just correcting, for the record:

He further claims to have stumbled directly south down the footpath, when he was approached from the south-east, said he backed east west towards his truck when Martin appeared, and was punched in the face from said Martin which should have pushed him back further to the east/north-east west/north-west.

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: spectator on July 16, 2012, 03:01:46 AM

You want to weigh "evidence" as fact when it is not established as such by any means.  It's evidence that GZ gives inconsistent accounts and contradictory statements.  IMO that's proof of a lack of credibility not self defense. 

I'm much more likely to call something you claim "reasonable" when you tell me where GZ was when TM approached his car, and which version of how the fight started is the only right one and why the other versions seem to differ.  Did GZ go forward or back when he was punched?  What did Trayvon do while George stumbled to Johns' yard?  That's around twenty steps IMO.  George pantomimes open faces slaps in his "reenactment" but seems unsure about what happened, or if he was pushed or fell in the end.  Why now is he so uncertain when before he knew which way he fell and that it was "at that point," and "as soon as he punched me" etc.  I don't find him credible.  And I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation from anyone on TalkLeft for where he was when he said:
 
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.


Actually he has no discrepancies not a single one, and the timeline fits perfectly, when dispatch asks "he's near the clubhouse?", George is clearly just agreeing and doe's not want to try and explain, he's busy watching Trayvon who is now walking west towards his car which had just parked on TT (100yds east or so from the clubhouse), listen carefully to the recording and his car.

As for the punch that fits beautifully also, when you are punched it's very common to black out memory wise, so 4 seconds of action could seem like just one, easily 30 ft might seem like 15 ft.

In boxing some hurt fighters never remembered throwing a desperate haymaker that knocked out the opponent who was moving in for the kill, others have forgot going many rounds and finishing the fight after a punch.

We are not computers, we are humans.

Let me give you an example, recently a TV show had a memory test,
a few people were shown the first 10 playing cards of a deck one at a time,
a few seconds later they were asked to remember and none could get past
the first 4 cards, doe's this mean they are inconsistent, should they guess? or
be truthful and say "i don't remember"... lol. 

George's recollection is actually consistent to what a human is expected to remember.

He had 3 things going on at the same time and no idea it would turn out like it did, and no reason to believe a need to remember any of it, how could he possibly recall exactly and in order what was said, we remember better what we see......usually.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 03:53:38 AM
Actually he has no discrepancies not a single one, and the timeline fits perfectly

You say this, then go on to defend all his discrepancies with 'well, of course he mis-remembers or forgets some stuff, he's only human'.

Which is it? Do you believe a) there is 'not a single' discrepancy, or b) there are some discrepancies, but hey, "that's to be expected"?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: who007 on July 16, 2012, 05:03:24 AM
Actually he has no discrepancies not a single one, and the timeline fits perfectly, when dispatch asks "he's near the clubhouse?", George is clearly just agreeing and doe's not want to try and explain, he's busy watching Trayvon who is now walking west towards his car which had just parked on TT (100yds east or so from the clubhouse), listen carefully to the recording and his car.
...

That does not wash with the statements Z made to police as they played the NEN tape for him
(2/29 audio interview part 3 (Inv. Serino and Inv. Singleton):

DS: Can you pause that for a minute? Okay, when you explained it to me, you said you had pulled over initially at the clubhouse, correct?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay, but it seems so fast, and then I thought you told me, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I thought you said they asked you, can you still see him, and you said, you told them you couldn’t, and you asked, and they said, well get to where you can see where he’s at. And you told me it was at that point you moved.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Now you’re saying he’s coming up to your car. Does that mean you’ve already, at this point in the tape, you’re already on Twin Tree, the street you didn’t know the name of at the time?
GZ: Um, no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
DS: Okay, but he’s walking up to your car now, right?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: On the tape, right. Cause you’re saying he’s walking up. You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re on the corner.
GZ: No, ma’am. No, ma’am. I’m at the clubhouse.
DS: You’re still at the clubhouse when he does this?
GZ: Mm hmm.
DS: Okay. [continues playing call] Pause it right there. Okay, where’s, where are you at now? Are you still at the clubhouse?
GZ: I think I’m still at the clubhouse, yes.
DS: Okay. [continues playing call] Has he moved yet?
GZ: I don’t think so.
DS: You’re still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I think so.
DS: On Retreat View Circle.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: who007 on July 16, 2012, 05:27:54 AM
...
Let me give you an example, recently a TV show had a memory test,
a few people were shown the first 10 playing cards of a deck one at a time,
a few seconds later they were asked to remember and none could get past
the first 4 cards, doe's this mean they are inconsistent, should they guess? or
be truthful and say "i don't remember"... lol. 

George's recollection is actually consistent to what a human is expected to remember.
...

Your example is comparing short-term memory recall about trivial matters to long-term memory about a traumatic event.  Not in any way comparable.

I will also add this -

From Psychology Today: Why do we remember frightening events so well? Fearful situations stimulate the brain to activate the sympathetic nervous system and adrenal glands causing the release of stress neurotransmitters and hormones. These chemicals activate the "flight or fight" response which includes an increase in heart rate to facilitate the delivery of blood to working muscles. They also stimulate a brain structure called the amygdala.

ETA: research has shown that the brain records traumatic memories differently than "regular memories". PTSD suffers frequently have memory problems in every day life, yet can tell you to the milisecond the events of a trauma because it is engraved, so to speak, on the brain.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/eyes-the-brain/201103/memory-the-amygdala-and-ptsd-0

I do think Z remembers much more than he is telling, it's his telling that provides the selective memory, and the portions he does not wish to disclose. He hasn't refined the line between the two as aptly as he'd like to, and that is why so many say he is lying his story is inconsistent.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 05:50:05 AM
And at a minimum, George had to have 'stumbled' at least DOUBLE that distance, yet not only failed to mention it until on the scene, he claimed to have been knocked 'back in to the grass' with the first punch.

He further claims to have stumbled directly south down the footpath, when he was approached from the south-east, said he back east towards his truck when Martin appeared, and was punched in the face from said Martin which should have pushed him back further to the east/north-east.

The only 'reality' that's inconvenient is George's.

Watch the video.
As you say TM approached Zimmerman from the SW.
Quote
Serino positions himself SW of Zimmerman

Zimmerman " I said I don't have a problem and reached for my cell phone
Zimmerman reaches in his pocket

....

Zimmerman : I looked in my pocket... He said You got a problem now and then he was here. Points at sidewalk

Serino  Right here. Steps forward to sidewalk due East of George and within three feet of George.
Zimmerman takes a  half step south and indicates a point with his arm that's east or ENE of his position

Zimmerman "right around here.


So where do you get the punch was thrown from the SW of Zimmerman.

Its quite easy to envision a hook from due staggering GZ due south. Martin also has more than enough room and is close enough in the video to siddle right and punch in one motion.

The only 'reality' that's inconvenient is George's. - Yes but for who?

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 06:03:14 AM
Your example is comparing short-term memory recall about trivial matters to long-term memory about a traumatic event.  Not in any way comparable.

I will also add this -

From Psychology Today: Why do we remember frightening events so well? Fearful situations stimulate the brain to activate the sympathetic nervous system and adrenal glands causing the release of stress neurotransmitters and hormones. These chemicals activate the "flight or fight" response which includes an increase in heart rate to facilitate the delivery of blood to working muscles. They also stimulate a brain structure called the amygdala.

ETA: research has shown that the brain records traumatic memories differently than "regular memories". PTSD suffers frequently have memory problems in every day life, yet can tell you to the milisecond the events of a trauma because it is engraved, so to speak, on the brain.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/eyes-the-brain/201103/memory-the-amygdala-and-ptsd-0

I do think Z remembers much more than he is telling, it's his telling that provides the selective memory, and the portions he does not wish to disclose. He hasn't refined the line between the two as aptly as he'd like to, and that is why so many say he is lying his story is inconsistent.

Isn't this a non sequitur?

I think that until Martin confronted GZ the only frighting part of the evening was that brief incident when Martin walked toward his car. Other than that, Zimmerman was simply waiting for the police. After Martin was lost -and presumable had fled the complex- it would very boring settling in for a wait of unknown duration.

Even when he was calling it in why would GZ be frightened. He had made many similar reports before. Ho Hum

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: who007 on July 16, 2012, 06:46:33 AM
Isn't this a non sequitur?

No.

Quote
I think that until Martin confronted GZ the only frighting part of the evening was that brief incident when Martin walked toward his car. Other than that, Zimmerman was simply waiting for the police. After Martin was lost -and presumable had fled the complex- it would very boring settling in for a wait of unknown duration.

Even when he was calling it in why would GZ be frightened. He had made many similar reports before. Ho Hum

So now Zimmerman wasn't in fear when he described not wanting to walk back through the path without the light? (bangs on flashlight for sound effects) ...here he is in a dark area, where he just chased a guy, who he thought was on drugs, up to no good, armed and possibly a dangerous criminal?  He wasn't afraid then?  It was just a ho-hummer in that darkness as he (boringly) waited for police?  Really?

DS: You were afraid of him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am

How about the moment he was approached by this "****ing *******" who cold-cocked him, knocking him down?  From that point on...?  I guess we can all agree from there it was elevated to a red-zone fear.

CS: They’re gonna ask like why you didn’t like haul ass. You understand that, right? I mean, how could you leave if you were scared.

My citation on how the mind (generally) records traumatic events more precisely stands. 

I will again state I think the events are seared into his memory.  It's just the part he chooses to selectively disclose, and those parts he has rather haphazardly fictionalized, creatively edited and alternately "forgot" at precise moments when the story does not comport with the physical  evidence and timeline that bring us to where we are now:
arguing  not whether his story is consistent, (it isn't) but how many of these inconsistencies are we we willing to buy, and just how many will a jury attribute to poor recollection or creative fabrication.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: AJ on July 16, 2012, 06:53:52 AM
That does not wash with the statements Z made to police as they played the NEN tape for him
(2/29 audio interview part 3 (Inv. Serino and Inv. Singleton):
<snip>

I don't see this as a huge discrepancy. Mr. Zimmerman is confident that he didn't leave the clubhouse until he was asked to do so - but that never actually happened. It's very possible that he was listening for that snippet of conversation before confirming he had left the clubhouse - I'd say it's evident by him not being sure as the call progresses, but that's speculation.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 07:18:29 AM

No.

So now Zimmerman wasn't in fear when he described not wanting to walk back through the path without the light? (bangs on flashlight for sound effects) ...here he is in a dark area, where he just chased a guy, who he thought was on drugs, up to no good, armed and possibly a dangerous criminal?  He wasn't afraid then?  It was just a ho-hummer in that darkness as he (boringly) waited for police?  Really?

DS: You were afraid of him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am

How about the moment he was approached by this "****ing *******" who cold-cocked him, knocking him down?  From that point on...?  I guess we can all agree from there it was elevated to a red-zone fear.

Zimmerman was in fear of a person he thought was long gone?

Sorry one can walk down the street see a threatening (frightening) situation and it does not trigger a flight or fight reaction.

A fight or an immanent fight,  triggers a fight or flight reaction.

You insist that any/some level of fear is sufficient to induce a memory enhancing fight or flight reaction?
If you premise is true, how do you explain the disparity in memory of the witnesses who also professed to be frightened? Shouldn't they be experiencing millisecond detailed recall from the magic of amygdala stimulation

Are you asserting that a fight causes the brain to retain previous, ante-fight  memories?

I have been in flight or fight situations, involving extreme trauma. My experience is not consistent  to your assertion.

BTW You are very selective in quoting the article ( not a study)
The full name of the article
Quote
Memory, the Amygdala, and PTSD.
The fine line between remembering too much and too little.
From the article
Quote
Like the control subjects, B.P. reacted strongly to the emotionally arousing parts of the story right after it was told. One week after hearing the story, however, control subjects recalled the disturbing parts of the narrative better than the emotionally neutral parts. B.P. remembered the emotionally neutral sections as well as the control subjects, but he demonstrated no enhanced retention of the emotionally arousing parts

Have you studied GZ to exclude him from the B.P category?

Do you think your prejudices may have have overcome your objectivity?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 07:42:18 AM
Watch the video.
As you say TM approached Zimmerman from the SW.
Welll, we agree that this is what George says.
So where do you get the punch was thrown from the SW of Zimmerman.
Um....you mean besides from the fact that we both agree that George clearly states that Martin approached George from the SW?

Its quite easy to envision a hook staggering GZ due south. Martin also has more than enough room and is close enough in the video to siddle right and punch in one motion.
It is? How in the world does this make any sense? I did watch the video, and I can't believe you're seriously claiming that, in that video, George is claiming to have been punched from the side. He can't be any more clear: He looked down for his phone, Martin was right in front of him and punched him in the face. And then he says he 'thinks' he stumbled, he fell, Martin pushed him down, etc.

That's not even in the ballpark from his initial statements that he was knocked back on to the grass from the first punch. Hell, it's not even the same effin' sport (with apologies to Pulp Fiction): we go from getting punched and knocked down and straddled from the first punch, to being hit and sor tof stumbling or somethign, and then being pushed down.

Besides - if George was punched from the side, he should have a bruise on the left side of his face, but if anything the small cut on his nose is on the right side of his nose.
 
Please look at this picture  (http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/pistol_eyes/23079796/223796/640.jpg)and tell me you see evidence of George being punched on the left-hand side of his face strong enough to force him to stumble south.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 07:48:48 AM
Zimmerman was in fear of a person he thought was long gone?
You're joking, right? It's blindingly obvious that Zimmerman clearly didn't think Martin was 'long gone': right up until the last 30 seconds of the NEN phone call, George didn't want to say his address out loud, obviously because he thought Martin might still be near by.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 16, 2012, 07:50:45 AM
Wasn't it you, Dragon, who suggested that TM was a Southpaw? That might complicate things too.
If he was a lefty, he would have most likely hit GZ on the right side of the face.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 16, 2012, 07:53:31 AM
You're joking, right? It's blindingly obvious that Zimmerman clearly didn't think Martin was 'long gone': right up until the last 30 seconds of the NEN phone call, George didn't want to say his address out loud, obviously because he thought Martin might still be near by.


Which makes one wonder if GZ ever left the 'T'
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 07:55:15 AM
Wasn't it you, Dragon, who suggested that TM was a Southpaw? That might complicate things too.
If he was a lefty, he would have most likely hit GZ on the right side of the face.

I can't remember if I suggested it or not. I think I recall seeing Martin use his left hand to reach into his pocket for change in the 7-11 video or something, don't recall what made me think he might be left-handed. I don't know if it's been confirmed if Martin is a southpaw or not (we know that George is).

Obviously if Martin is left-handed, it would sort of explain the small cut on the right side of GZ's nose...but would make George's claim of stumbling -south- after getting punched even more preposterous.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 16, 2012, 07:58:57 AM
I think this has been proven to be inaccurate.  First, TM's feet are roughly 30' from the T and it had fallen off of George and been rolled over to perform live saving measures meaning it could have been another 5' or so closer when the shot occurred.  Also, I don't recall Z ever saying where he fell is where the struggle stayed with no movement.  John saw them outside for what ,5-10 seconds and he has them moving from the grass to the concrete and its clear it moved back to the grass before the shot.  The witness on the end unit seems to describe a slow moving conflict with what sounded like wrestling on the ground and cries for help. 

Seems to me most of the evidence has Z getting struck by the T, stumbling south (the way the land flows) and as he stumbled, TM got on top.  The exact distance of this first event is unknown, but I'd guess this put them somewhere behind the end unit witnesses or about 10-15 feet from the T.  The fight then moves another 15-20 feet over the next minute or so.  It really doesn't seem all that difficult to believe that the bodies moved this far on the ground over this amount of time.


All distances cited below are IMO but based on google earth ruler tool and an overlay of the total station map that ALREADY was in agreement with my earlier assessment based solely on photo analysis.  What do you base your estimates on?

It's 30 feet to the tan bag from the south edge of the T.  So TM's feet are more like 44 foot away from the inside of the T.  And rolling a body over five feet probably puts them back on their face again - try it in bed, and I hope you don't fall off.  Plus we don't know which way he was rolled, but his cell phone was father south.  I doubt the body was moved farther than the width of Trayvon's skinny hips. 

Yes, the struggle on the ground may have moved some but the objects around are in a circle less than eight foot across at most, IMO.  I doubt it moved far since GZ claims TM was "riding" him the whole time, and engaged in many activities such as head banging and smothering etc.  Do you claim the fight went to the ground after TM got on top of hims somehow (piggyback?) because that's not what George claims, ever.

Fifteen feet south of where GZ stood in the walk thru video is even with the north edge of the building.  So if you are trying to claim halfway down past 1211 TTL then the distance is more like 25 feet.  If the fight then went to the ground and moved to where the body/shell casing were found then it moved another 20 feet on the ground.  Looking forward to your You Tube video of a "cowboy on an inverted inchworm" demonstrating that part of the move.  Don't forget the head slams and smothering, MMA, etc. 

Whatever the actual distances are, they are not favorable estimates pulled from thin air and waved away with vague explanations.   

Here's GZ's orignal descriptions to SIngleton, the night of the killing:
"I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time"
"as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass."
"and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…"


and during the "stress test" he tells it like this:
"and he just punched me in the nose, and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up on top of me"

 George's story IMO sounds like he was on his feet on the sidewalk at John's backyard at the moment he was punched.  How did he get there and what were the two doing at the time? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 08:09:00 AM
How in the world does this make any sense? I did watch the video, and I can't believe you're seriously claiming that, in that video,


It couldn't be more clear. 20 seconds into interview

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/in-newly-released-video-zimmerman-walks-police-through-alleged-fight-with-trayvon-martin/ (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/in-newly-released-video-zimmerman-walks-police-through-alleged-fight-with-trayvon-martin/)


"he said 'you got a problem now' and then he was HERE
<emphatically points to position on sidewalk>

Its should be obvious that GZ is referring to Treyvon's relative position

The detectives re-positioning "you mean right here" seems to  indicate that he understood the gesture also

The position is within a foot of GZ and due west of him.
From that close position TM was able to launch a punch from anywhere within a 270 degree arc of George.

I  think George would  re-position himself to prevent  TM getting in back of him. But I also see no indication that he expected the punch until it was thrown.

Your burden of proof is to prove it couldn't happen that way. I for one think it probably happen that way.


Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 08:11:40 AM

All distances cited below are IMO but based on google earth ruler tool and an overlay of the total station map that ALREADY was in agreement with my earlier assessment based solely on photo analysis.  What do you base your estimates on?

It's 30 feet to the tan bag from the south edge of the T.  So TM's feet are more like 44 foot away from the inside of the T.  And rolling a body over five feet probably puts them back on their face again - try it in bed, and I hope you don't fall off.  Plus we don't know which way he was rolled, but his cell phone was father south.  I doubt the body was moved farther than the width of Trayvon's skinny hips. 

Yes, the struggle on the ground may have moved some but the objects around are in a circle less than eight foot across at most, IMO.  I doubt it moved far since GZ claims TM was "riding" him the whole time, and engaged in many activities such as head banging and smothering etc.  Do you claim the fight went to the ground after TM got on top of hims somehow (piggyback?) because that's not what George claims, ever.

Fifteen feet south of where GZ stood in the walk thru video is even with the north edge of the building.  So if you are trying to claim halfway down past 1211 TTL then the distance is more like 25 feet.  If the fight then went to the ground and moved to where the body/shell casing were found then it moved another 20 feet on the ground.  Looking forward to your You Tube video of a "cowboy on an inverted inchworm" demonstrating that part of the move.  Don't forget the head slams and smothering, MMA, etc. 

Whatever the actual distances are, they are not favorable estimates pulled from thin air and waved away with vague explanations.   

Here's GZ's orignal descriptions to SIngleton, the night of the killing:
"I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time"
"as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass."
"and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…"


and during the "stress test" he tells it like this:
"and he just punched me in the nose, and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up on top of me"

 George's story IMO sounds like he was on his feet on the sidewalk at John's backyard at the moment he was punched.  How did he get there and what were the two doing at the time?


So do you think he deliberately reversed himself during the subsequent walk through or do you belief that  being in the actual location jogged his memory?

I don't see the word immediately. as in I IMMEDIATELY fell
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 08:16:41 AM
You're joking, right? It's blindingly obvious that Zimmerman clearly didn't think Martin was 'long gone': right up until the last 30 seconds of the NEN phone call, George didn't want to say his address out loud, obviously because he thought Martin might still be near by.


Cite? Maybe he didn't know who was listing, The T is hardly private?

GZ "These ArseHoles always get away?"  Hmmm, where?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 16, 2012, 08:45:12 AM
I don't see this as a huge discrepancy. Mr. Zimmerman is confident that he didn't leave the clubhouse until he was asked to do so - but that never actually happened. It's very possible that he was listening for that snippet of conversation before confirming he had left the clubhouse - I'd say it's evident by him not being sure as the call progresses, but that's speculation.

So, because he's wrong, he's right?  I get the feeling the prosecution would LOVE to hear that explained to a jury in open court.  Could his later "not sure-ness" also be explained to a jury as the hemming and hawing of a man who is caught having painted himself into a corner and made contradictory statements, BOTH of which implicate a story that does not match the recorded call? 

GZ marked a middle position (at the first corner of TTL, south of the mailboxes) on the map Singleton gave him, but quickly crossed it out just before he arrived at his first telling of the "TM doubled back/circled/hand in waistband."  I believe IMO that this is where his car was when TM approached him on foot - walking towards his home from the mailboxes (per Dee Dee) and/or "near the clubhouse now?/Yeah" (per GZ with dispatch) , not nonsensically or menacingly doubling back from the dog walk.  Please show us how the "doubling back" move, a round trip walk of some 400 feet at minimum fits into GZ's recorded call at either position, clubhouse parking lot or parked by cut thru because it doesn't jibe with GZ's memory of calling dispatch while he was ahead of TM on RVC and parked at the clubhouse.  If he called from there, moved and reached a human in the time we have on the call log, TM has not yet had enough time to reach the cut thru / dog walk T area unless he ALSO passed him at the clubhouse parking lot and then ran ahead while GZ couldn't see him, only to double back once GZ arrived at his final parking spot he claims he took.  For GZ to move while on hold, TM would likely still be behind GZ somewhere on TTL.  GZ tells it as though he arrived from the clubhouse having never spied TM from a moving vehicle while on TTL.  IMO he's covering something, and I don't see how the timing EVER works for selective parts of his versions, much less one complete telling.   

Plus, significantly starting the "speaking to a human" portion of the recorded call at the final parking spot  leaves out the repeated insistence by George that he was "by the clubhouse" when he's played the tape of the approach/hand in waistband section of the call, and of course the original agreement that TM was "near the clubhouse/Yeah" said to dispatch.  "Yeah" does not mean "no" after an explanation in a courtroom, IMO.   

IMO these are nor false memories, minor inconsistencies, or evidence of a forgetful nature - they are evidence of being caught by investigators having pushed a false narrative he tried to sell earlier, conflicting with the harsh light of truth in the form of the recorded call, a call GZ behaved as though would not be held up against his account.   IMO GZ deliberatley wanted to obscure how he and TM moved from the clubhouse area to the cut thru area.  IMO placing GZ at the position he himself marked on a map (and quickly crossed out) resolves inconsistencies and solves the reason for contradictions - he WAS "by the clubhouse" just not in the parking lot) when TM approached his vehicle.  Then, GZ turned around and followed him part way down TTL, causing TM to run away.  Note also that GZ doesn't describe the running away ever, unless prompted, and when questioned specifically about the nature of the running has nothing to say about HOW TM was running. 


CS: Okay. [continues playing call]
DS: Can you pause that for a minute? Okay, when you explained it to me, you said you had pulled over initially at the clubhouse, correct?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay, but it seems so fast, and then I thought you told me, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I thought you said they asked you, can you still see him, and you said, you told them you couldn’t, and you asked, and they said, well get to where you can see where he’s at. And you told me it was at that point you moved.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Now you’re saying he’s coming up to your car. Does that mean you’ve already, at this point in the tape, you’re already on Twin Tree, the street you didn’t know the name of at the time?
GZ: Um, no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
DS: Okay, but he’s walking up to your car now, right?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.

DS: On the tape, right. Cause you’re saying he’s walking up. You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re on the corner.
GZ: No, ma’am. No, ma’am. I’m at the clubhouse.

DS: You’re still at the clubhouse when he does this?
GZ: Mm hmm.
DS: Okay. [Retreat view or 111?  Now he's coming towards me…. waistband] Pause it right there. Okay, where’s, where are you at now? Are you still at the clubhouse?
GZ: I think I’m still at the clubhouse, yes.
DS: Okay. [and he's a black male - something's wrong with him] Has he moved yet?
GZ: I don’t think so.
DS: You’re still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I think so.
DS: On Retreat View Circle.

GZ: Yes, ma’am. I don’t remember even saying he had a button on his shirt.
DS: Okay. [with him..something's wrong with him… what his deal is]
CS: Something’s wrong with him. What’s that statement supposed to mean?
GZ: I don’t know.
CS: Okay. [continues playing call  Ah, these assholes, they always get away]
DS: Okay, where are you at now? Are you still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I don’t remember.
CS: Okay. [these axxholes always get away  ] That statement. "These a**holes…" what’s behind that?
GZ: People that victimize the neighborhood.
DS: Didn’t you just tell us in there that a week earlier they made an arrest?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: They don’t always get away.
GZ: No.
CS: Good point. [plays recording] What’s happening now? Are you guys walking now, is he walking?
GZ: No, that’s, I was parked where I could see him now.
CS: So you’re…
DS: Okay, so you’re definitely not in front of the clubhouse any more, at this point?
GZ: No.
CS: So you’re ahead of him?
GZ: No, I was behind him.

CS: Okay, so you walked to your car, then walked along this path and you were behind him?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: Okay.
GZ: When I was at the clubhouse he walked…
CS: Are you driving slowly or something?
GZ: No, I pulled over and stopped before I called.
CS: Okay. Okay. [plays recording - "sh*t he's running] Okay. Full sprint, full-on flight…jogging, trotting…describe the run.
GZ: I don’t remember. I just, cause I was on the phone. It happened so quickly.
CS: Well, ah, I understand that, George, but I guess that it’s um…if it was a bicycle theft I could say okay, but it’s kinda important. I mean, was he running as to evade you, get away from you, ah, maybe got tired of getting wet in the rain. What kinda run was it? I mean, it sounds like he’s running as to get away from you.
GZ: I don’t know why he was running.
CS: But what kinda run was it? Can’t say?
GZ: I don't remember.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 16, 2012, 08:46:13 AM

Cite? Maybe he didn't know who was listing, The T is hardly private?

GZ "These ArseHoles always get away?"  Hmmm, where?


Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t
know where this kid is.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 08:51:27 AM

Cite? Maybe he didn't know who was listing, The T is hardly private?
Oh please, you can't really be claiming this. And besides, he had no problem giving out his phone number just a few seconds later.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 09:00:08 AM

Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t
know where this kid is.


I stand corrected - be warned that means you can only be correct one more time today.
Probably at 10:46:13 PM
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 09:03:00 AM
Oh please, you can't really be claiming this. And besides, he had no problem giving out his phone number just a few seconds later.


Cant believe what?The T is hardly private?

  Of course it isn't. its surrounded on three sides  by windows. IMO that's a key point in this case.  George could have no idea who was watching or listening.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 09:05:11 AM
IMO that's a key point in this case.  George could have no idea who was watching or listening.
Neither could Trayvon.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: who007 on July 16, 2012, 09:07:01 AM

Cant believe what?The T is hardly private?

  Of course it isn't. its surrounded on three sides  by windows. IMO that's a key point in this case.  George could have no idea who was watching or listening.

Excuse me...just HOW does someone who may be listening to a one sided phone conversation know the numbers 1950 correlate to an address, and that it is police on the other end?  Hmmmmm?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 16, 2012, 09:09:22 AM

So do you think he deliberately reversed himself during the subsequent walk through or do you belief that  being in the actual location jogged his memory?

I don't see the word immediately. as in I IMMEDIATELY fell

Yes, I think being in the actual location jogged his memory of the false narrative he had been pushing. 

No he did not say the word IMMEDIATELY.  He said, "at that point/ as soon as" etc. and twice adds teh detail of falling backwards, which seems odd. 

Previously he's had zero recall of what TM was supposed to be doing while he is staggering some 20 steps south before his "memory jog" as you call it.  Moving that distance while staggering takes time, and an aggressor would likely want to take advantage of that time as well when an opponent is visibly at a disadvantage.  GZ never described what TM was doing at this moment, before brought to the area by investigators.  Then, when at the area, he has vague recollections of what HE may have done but says nothing specific about what his aggressor did, and he walks some 25-30 feet south when the actual distance was more like 45-46 feet to the shell casing. 

Zimmerman....Yes, sir. Like I said I was already past that so I didn't see exactly where he came from but he was about where...(tape cut out again a bit) And I said I don't have a problem and I went to go grab my cell phone but my.... I left it in a different pocket. I went...I looked down at my pant pocket and he said, you got a problem now and then he was here (motions that he was right there next to him) and he punched me in the face
Investigator...right here (investigator moves up to the sidewalk away from the "t")
Zimmerman...right up around here, to be honest I don't remember exactly
Investigator....that's fine
Zimmerman... I think... I stumbled, and I fell down he pushed me down, somehow he got on top of me
Investigator...on the grass or on the cement?
Zimmerman: It was more over towards here (Zimmerman walks down into the dog path) I was trying to push him away from me and then he got on top of me somewhere around here (here he is looking down to where Trayvon really was, and hesitates for a moment, looks like he's trying to think of what to say) and, ah, that's where I started screaming for help. I started screaming help, help, as loud as I could and ah (stopping to think) that is when he grabbed...I tried to sit up and that's when he grabbed me by the head and he tried to slam my head down and...

Again, what was TM supposedly doing during this migration?  GZ seems to say no words were exchanged, he did not get into a clinch with the teen, and  only "tried to push him away" while pantomiming girlie slaps but claims no blows were landed.  Was TM trying to give him a hug and a kiss?  Was TM trying to detain George?  His explanation lacks the ring of truth, IMO and is inconsistent with earlier accounts, and describes a forward motion where previously he's stated on multiple occasions that he fell backwards.  Also of course he leaves out the reason his keychain flashlight was found lit on the ground south of the sidewalk he claims he was walking. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: who007 on July 16, 2012, 09:10:22 AM
No matter the answer, it certainly puts the "he thought he was long gone" line in the round file.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: who007 on July 16, 2012, 09:23:56 AM
One more random thought regarding the call at the T - I thought it might strange Z would say "And when I walked back, that’s when he came out of the darkness and I guess he was upset that I called the police."

How would TM know Z had called the police?

Just weird.

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 16, 2012, 09:29:16 AM
Yes. The lead investigator even wrote that GZ's injuries were consistent with a life threatening violent encounter. No mention of the absurd notion of a tree or hedge being responsible.

You left out the lead-in word to this account, "marginally," thereby IMO deliberately taking the statement out of context.  The context was within a recommendation for charges to be filed against the person. 

per ABC news:

Quote
"These accusations come a day after a report by Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, was made public. Serino's report expressed strong skepticism of Zimmerman's account of the shooting, describing Zimmerman's injuries as "marginally consistent with a life threatening violent encounter."

Serino cast doubt on Zimmerman's version of events saying the "actions are inconsistent with those of a person who has stated he was in fear of another subject."

Nor did the detective seem impressed with Zimmerman's injuries, writing they "are marginally consistent with a life threatening violent episode."

And yes, there is no mention of a tree or hedge - that is speculation on my part since GZ's own account comes up so wanting, and the other witness is dead.  If you want me to dig up the body and hold a seance, let me know.  I'm speculating because it seems as valid a method as listening to George Zimmerman, IMO.  His stories don't add up, IMO and in the opinion of Serino, the man who looked him in the eye and saw his injuries and played the recording to dispatch for him, etc.  Do you claim your opinion is more valid than his? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 09:34:20 AM


  I'm speculating because it seems as valid a method as listening to George Zimmerman, IMO.  His stories don't add up, IMO and in the opinion of Serino, the man who looked him in the eye and saw his injuries and played the recording to dispatch for him, etc.  Do you claim your opinion is more valid than his? 



The evidence ( including Georges Statements) is more valid than your opinions.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: AJ on July 16, 2012, 09:39:37 AM
So, because he's wrong, he's right?

<snip>

I'll tell you straight up, wall-of-text doesn't intimidate me. I don't read them. Also, you don't have to keep quoting the same transcript over and over. I replied to it the first time. My reply has not changed. Reading the words and seeing his confidence level deteriorate regarding where he's at is a pretty big hint here.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 09:47:12 AM
I'll tell you straight up, wall-of-text doesn't intimidate me. I don't read them. Also, you don't have to keep quoting the same transcript over and over. I replied to it the first time. My reply has not changed. Reading the words and seeing his confidence level deteriorate regarding where he's at is a pretty big hint here.

You seem to have delved further into the wall than I could - congrats!
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 09:51:19 AM
I'll tell you straight up, wall-of-text doesn't intimidate me. I don't read them. Also, you don't have to keep quoting the same transcript over and over. I replied to it the first time. My reply has not changed. Reading the words and seeing his confidence level deteriorate regarding where he's at is a pretty big hint here.
'Confidence deteriorate'? He's -adamant- when asked that he's at the clubhouse.

It's a pretty big damn hint that the initial story he gave after the shooting doesn't jive with the NEN call.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 16, 2012, 09:52:58 AM

All distances cited below are IMO but based on google earth ruler tool and an overlay of the total station map that ALREADY was in agreement with my earlier assessment based solely on photo analysis.  What do you base your estimates on?

It's 30 feet to the tan bag from the south edge of the T.  So TM's feet are more like 44 foot away from the inside of the T.  And rolling a body over five feet probably puts them back on their face again - try it in bed, and I hope you don't fall off.  Plus we don't know which way he was rolled, but his cell phone was father south.  I doubt the body was moved farther than the width of Trayvon's skinny hips. 

Yes, the struggle on the ground may have moved some but the objects around are in a circle less than eight foot across at most, IMO.  I doubt it moved far since GZ claims TM was "riding" him the whole time, and engaged in many activities such as head banging and smothering etc.  Do you claim the fight went to the ground after TM got on top of hims somehow (piggyback?) because that's not what George claims, ever.

Fifteen feet south of where GZ stood in the walk thru video is even with the north edge of the building.  So if you are trying to claim halfway down past 1211 TTL then the distance is more like 25 feet.  If the fight then went to the ground and moved to where the body/shell casing were found then it moved another 20 feet on the ground.  Looking forward to your You Tube video of a "cowboy on an inverted inchworm" demonstrating that part of the move.  Don't forget the head slams and smothering, MMA, etc. 

Whatever the actual distances are, they are not favorable estimates pulled from thin air and waved away with vague explanations.   

Here's GZ's orignal descriptions to SIngleton, the night of the killing:
"I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time"
"as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass."
"and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…"


and during the "stress test" he tells it like this:
"and he just punched me in the nose, and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up on top of me"

 George's story IMO sounds like he was on his feet on the sidewalk at John's backyard at the moment he was punched.  How did he get there and what were the two doing at the time?

My estimates are based on the length of the end unit, the distance between the sidewalk and the end unit, where TM's feet are located (before the dividing fence) and that the body moved off of Z and having been rolled over to do CPR (it would be most likely that the body is rolled down hill which would move the feet further from the T).  Where the body ends up isn't what matters in the analysis of how far the fight moved down from the T, its where the body is when the shot occurs that matters.  I estimate that the dividing wall is just under 40' from the south edge of the sidewalk , TM's feet are just on the north side of that wall and the body moved up to 5 feet further south from where the shot was fired which gives me an estimate of between 30'-35' south of the T when the shot was fired.  Z's keys I believe are somewhere about 6' south of the T which to me indicates an area where he was stumbling south after the first punch. 

I think you are putting way too much in GZ's walkthru and where he positions the bodies.  It was dark, raining, had just taken a punch that broke his nose and was trying to defend against a guy attacking him on the ground.  He is not going to give an accurate assessment of how far the fight moved and when.  He knows about where TM hit him and which direction he fell.  After that, there isn't going to be much accuracy on the distances.

All of the witnesses near by describe a wrestling/fighting that moves south which indicates movement on the ground.  John mentions them moving a few feet on the ground in the few seconds he observed them, so is it really that difficult the moved further south as Z struggled to defend himself?  He mentioned trying to get to his feet which would cause the fight to move.  I just don't see any issue with the struggle moving some 30' in over a minute, probably 10-15 of that coming in the first few seconds.

I can see picking out inconsistencies in his description of the what happened on the call with the dispatcher, but I just don't see any issues with the fight scene given the location of the evidence and witness descriptions.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 09:58:03 AM

I can see picking out inconsistencies in his description of the what happened on the call with the dispatcher, but I just don't see any issues with the fight scene given the location of the evidence and witness descriptions.

Perhaps if you close one eye and cover the other?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: AJ on July 16, 2012, 10:01:42 AM
'Confidence deteriorate'? He's -adamant- when asked that he's at the clubhouse.

It's a pretty big damn hint that the initial story he gave after the shooting doesn't jive with the NEN call.


Quote
DS: On the tape, right. Cause you’re saying he’s walking up. You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re on the corner.
GZ: No, ma’am. No, ma’am. I’m at the clubhouse.
DS: You’re still at the clubhouse when he does this?
GZ: Mm hmm.
DS: Okay. [Retreat view or 111?  Now he's coming towards me…. waistband] Pause it right there. Okay, where’s, where are you at now? Are you still at the clubhouse?
GZ: I think I’m still at the clubhouse, yes.
DS: Okay. [and he's a black male - something's wrong with him] Has he moved yet?
GZ: I don’t think so.
DS: You’re still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I think so.
...
DS: Okay, where are you at now? Are you still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I don’t remember.

Affirmative,
Affirmative,
Possibly,
Possibly,
Don't know,

You don't call that a deterioration of confidence regarding his location?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 10:04:19 AM
But how can all this 'repeated face punching / head-slamming / suffocation' etc. happen if they're spending the majority of the fight rolling around on the grass for 35-odd feet?

George's account of the fight is very clear: Punched, knocked down, straddled, punchy-punch, slammy-slam, suffocaty-suffocate, squiggly-squiggle, gun-exposed, bang. In the video re-enactment, he adjusts this slightly to punched, stumble, knocked down, rest the same.

George's version simply does -not- match the ear-witness statements and the evidence that describe a scuffle / wrestling match down the path. And that's even before we get to the notion of 'punch should push me back to the north-west but I stumbled forward to the south'.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 16, 2012, 10:17:16 AM
One more random thought regarding the call at the T - I thought it might strange Z would say "And when I walked back, that’s when he came out of the darkness and I guess he was upset that I called the police."

How would TM know Z had called the police?

Just weird.

Yes it is weird.  Did GZ mention(to TM) that the police were on their way during the verbal exchange, the verbal exchange which GZ doesn't really mention during the reenactment
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 10:23:30 AM
But how can all this 'repeated face punching / head-slamming / suffocation' etc. happen if they're spending the majority of the fight rolling around on the grass for 35-odd feet?

George's account of the fight is very clear: Punched, knocked down, straddled, punchy-punch, slammy-slam, suffocaty-suffocate, squiggly-squiggle, gun-exposed, bang. In the video re-enactment, he adjusts this slightly to punched, stumble, knocked down, rest the same.

George's version simply does -not- match the ear-witness statements and the evidence that describe a scuffle / wrestling match down the path. And that's even before we get to the notion of 'punch should push me back to the north-west but I stumbled forward to the south'.


Quote
But how can all this 'repeated face punching / head-slamming / suffocation' etc. happen if they're spending the majority of the fight rolling around on the grass for 35-odd feet?

Who claimed that?

Quote
George's version simply does -not- match the ear-witness statements and the evidence that describe a scuffle / wrestling match down the path. And that's even before we get to the notion of 'punch should push me back to the north-west but I stumbled forward to the south'.

Opinion ( and a rather weird one)

Just because  George does not mention duration or intervals does not mean that there are not durations and intervals.

Just because the investigator didn't ask  doesn't mean  you can your substitute your own feelings  as facts .
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 10:35:29 AM
Yes it is weird.  Did GZ mention(to TM) that the police were on their way during the verbal exchange, the verbal exchange which GZ doesn't really mention during the reenactment

If you go back there are a number of posts by various commentators discussing if  GZ might think it reasonable for TM to think that George was on the phone with police. We may want to revisit this after we have defense discovery. George was there we were not.

There is no credible  evidence that TM was interested in a conversation with George.  It is speculation to conclude that GM identifying himself would have changed the course of events. One could argue that it might precipitate a fight.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 16, 2012, 10:58:49 AM
Then, when at the area, he has vague recollections of what HE may have done but says nothing specific about what his aggressor did, and he walks some 25-30 feet south when the actual distance was more like 45-46 feet to the shell casing. 


You are not right about the distance.  You have pushed it for months and then the crime screen sketches came out. 

You were very close about the distance going from the northern most pilar but not from the sidewalk at the "T" going due south.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: AJ on July 16, 2012, 11:03:59 AM
You are not right about the distance.  You have pushed it for months and then the crime screen sketches came out. 

You were very close about the distance going from the northern most pilar but not from the sidewalk at the "T" going due south.

Don't insult them with evidence. They will not have that nonsense in their theories!
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 16, 2012, 11:45:57 AM
To me it seems pretty reasonable GZ, as soon as he exited the truck, that he never really anticipated getting any closer than 50 yards to him. We'll never really know but, I can't imagine TM was pussy footing around when he cut the corner and took off.

IMO we'll never know how fast TM ran because George is very hesitant to describe the running he clearly saw that came just seconds before he exited his vehicle.  He never once brings up any mention of running unless prompted, and when asked specifically and directly to characterize the running, Serino presses him hard but George has no answer.   Where does GZ voluntarily offer an account of TM running away from him without first being prompted?  Maybe there is such an account but I don't know where.  He speaks of "following" but not following a kid who ran away.  But for the recorded call, and GZ's own spontaneous, expletive-laden observation that TM was running, we'd never know TM ran at all, would we?  Is that something he actually forgot or just WANTS to forget?


CS: Okay. Okay. [continues playing call ("sh*t, he's running")] Okay. Full sprint, full-on flight…jogging, trotting…describe the run.
GZ: I don’t remember. I just, cause I was on the phone. Happened so quickly.
CS: Well, ah, I understand that, George, but I guess that it’s um…if it was a bicycle theft I could say okay, but it’s kinda important. I mean, was he running as to evade you, get away from you, ah, maybe got tired of getting wet in the rain. What kinda run was it? I mean, it sounds like he’s running as to get away from you.
GZ: I don’t know why he was running.
CS: But what kinda run was it? Can’t say?
GZ: I don’t know.

IMO he is hesitant to talk about the running since it makes no sense with his false narrative of TM doubling back/hand in waistband/circling that he's just contradicted himself about when played the recording, repeatedly insisting he was "by the clubhouse" during.  Why would someone try to intimidate a car bound person but then run away?  IMO TM ran because GZ was behind him in a slow moving car, keeping pace with the teen after having parked facing the mailbox, in the spot he marked on the map but quickly crossed out.  How many mulligans are we supposed to allow this guy? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 12:14:12 PM
t know.

IMO he is hesitant to talk about the running since it makes no sense with his false narrative of TM doubling back/hand in waistband/circling that he's just contradicted himself about when played the recording, repeatedly insisting he was "by the clubhouse" during.  Why would someone try to intimidate a car bound person but then run away?  IMO TM ran because GZ was behind him in a slow moving car, keeping pace with the teen after having parked facing the mailbox, in the spot he marked on the map but quickly crossed out.  How many mulligans are we supposed to allow this guy?

Of course then again he may be hesitant to characterize the running because, as he says, he 's not sure.
IMO
Quote
That TM was trying to intimidate GZ is pure speculation.
That TM was not afraid of GM is logically established by his promenade to the car.
Why did TM run? We probably need to examine Martin background and the circumstances leading up to that night to truly know. Until evidence is submitted ( and its been promised) any one would just be speculating - kinda like you.


Quote
How many mulligans are we supposed to allow this guy
I 'm not granting you  anymore mulligans. I think you waste my time by using  dis-proven conclusions as a basis for ridiculous speculations.

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: who007 on July 16, 2012, 12:22:41 PM
...That TM was not afraid of GM is established.
...
Exactly where is this "established."
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 12:27:03 PM
Exactly where is this "established."

IMO by both TM willingness to walk to the truck and examine GZ and by his willingness to sneak up behind GZ and assault him.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 12:41:34 PM
IMO by both TM willingness to walk to the truck and examine GZ and by his willingness to sneak up behind GZ and assault him.
I think we've pretty clearly established that there is no time for Martin to circle GZ's truck in the time alloted based on the NEN call and the walk-through. The time just doesn't add up.

I see, so now you're using his 'issued a verbal challenge from behind' as 'evidence he wasn't afraid'. Wow. Just...wow.

And the running away from George previously? What was that?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: unitron on July 16, 2012, 12:46:42 PM
Wasn't it you, Dragon, who suggested that TM was a Southpaw? That might complicate things too.
If he was a lefty, he would have most likely hit GZ on the right side of the face.

Somewhere in the second big evidence dump I saw where his mother said Martin was right-handed.

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 12:51:25 PM
Somewhere in the second big evidence dump I saw where his mother said Martin was right-handed.

I recall seeing some pics of him gesticulating with his right hand - but I can't remember where?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 16, 2012, 01:01:34 PM
My estimates are based on the length of the end unit, the distance between the sidewalk and the end unit, where TM's feet are located (before the dividing fence) and that the body moved off of Z and having been rolled over to do CPR (it would be most likely that the body is rolled down hill which would move the feet further from the T).  Where the body ends up isn't what matters in the analysis of how far the fight moved down from the T, its where the body is when the shot occurs that matters.  I estimate that the dividing wall is just under 40' from the south edge of the sidewalk , TM's feet are just on the north side of that wall and the body moved up to 5 feet further south from where the shot was fired which gives me an estimate of between 30'-35' south of the T when the shot was fired.  Z's keys I believe are somewhere about 6' south of the T which to me indicates an area where he was stumbling south after the first punch. 

You do realize his feet are farther south than his head, right? And that his feet are south of a line made by the dividing wall...  you seem confused.  Have you seen an overlay of the total station map with google earth or google maps?  Or are you doing this all in your own head? 

Quote

I think you are putting way too much in GZ's walkthru and where he positions the bodies.  It was dark, raining, had just taken a punch that broke his nose and was trying to defend against a guy attacking him on the ground.  He is not going to give an accurate assessment of how far the fight moved and when.  He knows about where TM hit him and which direction he fell. 

He knows which direction he fell?  Explain, please. Does George know the difference between forward and backwards?  Because he's claimed both IMO. 

Quote
After that, there isn't going to be much accuracy on the distances.

All of the witnesses near by describe a wrestling/fighting that moves south which indicates movement on the ground. 

Which they heard, not saw it seems IMO.  The only person who once claimed to see movement described a two person foot chase, and later amended this to various other things.  No one describes having seen wrestlers on the ground migrating south over any distance, and GZ's pants and knees are not muddy nor grass stained, so it seems unlikely he and TM tumbled, one after the other being in the top position unless GZ did so without touching his knees to the wet grass or scraping his pants on the sidewalk.  His pants seem quite clean in the photos.  So I'm not sure how they could move very far at all if TM was always on top, as GZ describes.  They can shift orientation from N-S to E-W, etc but travel in a straight line is difficult unless you think TM somehow picked GZ up and shoved him ahead of himself while TM was on his knees with GZ between his legs??? 


Quote
John mentions them moving a few feet on the ground in the few seconds he observed them, so is it really that difficult the moved further south as Z struggled to defend himself? 


If GZ wriggled away from TM while on his back, I can see GZ making a foot or so progress, as he describes when trying to get his head off the sidewalk.  But once he would have moved two feet at the most, TM would have to reposition himself above GZ right? How many times do you think this happened?  To move ten feet it would have to happen five times, in a straight line it seems, with TM's body ending up feet facing south after it's all done somehow.  Again, look at GZ's pants knees and tell me how far he moved on his back. 

I can't wait to see THAT you tube video.  You are claiming 30 to 35 feet of this! 

Quote
He mentioned trying to get to his feet which would cause the fight to move.  I just don't see any issue with the struggle moving some 30' in over a minute, probably 10-15 of that coming in the first few seconds.

So, 15 feet in the first seconds, meaning stumbling, right?  Then the remainder with TM atop GZ?  That's somewhere around 30 feet of "cowboy riding an inverter inchworm," which I don't find credible. 


Quote
I can see picking out inconsistencies in his description of the what happened on the call with the dispatcher, but I just don't see any issues with the fight scene given the location of the evidence and witness descriptions.

In other words, GZ may have not told the whole truth about how he arrived at the T, but after that he's good as gold.  I find your reasoning to be suspect.  You have started with a presumption that GZ is telling the truth and now you are trying to defend it by any means at hand.  IMO you need to examine your own reasoning and consider if perhaps you are wrong to begin with a conclusion in mind already. 

And since you characterize the problems with the NE call lining up with George's statements, I need to remind you that you have opened up a whole can of worms there.  Feel free to have a crack at explaining the "inconsistencies" regarding the movements from the clubhouse to the T intersection, because others have tried.  IMO they are open contradictions and evidence of GZ having pushed a deliberately false narrative he is caught in by SPD investigators and questioned directly about, and he comes up wanting. 

Where was GZ when TM approached his vehicle with his hand in his waistband?  Where was he when "Sh*t, he's running" happened?  Because GZ tells it in two competing places, and neither account matches the NE call recording IMO.  If you claim he is at the final parking spot, please explain his insistence that he was "by the clubhouse" when played the recording, and "near the clubhouse/yeah" in the recording itself, and his silence and "i don't remember" etc when called on it. 

These sorts of problems will be explained by the prosecution as an attempt at a cover story to obscure the real events that happened on TTL and by the mailboxes.  And George's competing stories are both false IMO, whereas the middle position with him waiting by the first curve solves inconsistencies and removes contradictions leaving the conclusion that GZ lied to investigators about how he came to travel from the clubhouse to the cut thru, and they will make note of how GZ marked a map showing that middle position before he crossed it out. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 01:02:18 PM
I think we've pretty clearly established that there is no time for Martin to circle GZ's truck in the time alloted based on the NEN call and the walk-through. The time just doesn't add up.


Who said circle the truck? - and I definitely don't buy into your timeline.

Quote
I see, so now you're using his 'issued a verbal challenge from behind' as 'evidence he wasn't afraid'. Wow. Just...wow.

Are you saying Wow because you had a catharsis and can finally understand the weight of the evidence or because you suddenly thought of how you could try to invent new evidence?

Evidence supporting Treyvon Attacking
The Testimony of GZ
The Physical Damage
The Debris field
Witness 4  (The only eye witness to the fight)

Vs

Speculations
Well I have a time line that didn't fit...
The what if the little green men speculation...
Treyvon doesn't know how to attack accept from straight ahead.

I can see how it could be difficult.


Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: who007 on July 16, 2012, 01:04:02 PM
IMO by both TM willingness to walk to the truck and examine GZ and by his willingness to sneak up behind GZ and assault him.

I'm just going to state, I don't think you are fully aware of the meaning of the term "established."
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 16, 2012, 01:06:36 PM
I don't know why TM decided to run.  Fear, Dee Dee's urging, or otherwise, something spurred him around that corner.

I just can't understand why after he lost GZ and over a minute or two had passed, he decided to go back to the "T" because if he didn't go back, he had to have laid in wait and out of view.   I am not willing to assign TM the "Lay-in-wait" label. 

In many ways, I think this case is The Perfect Storm between two people.  Everything TM did to avoid GZ confirmed his suspicions of TM being "up to no good."  Under GZ's scrutiny, TM is creeped out and then possibly angry for being followed.  It seems every action one does, the reciprocal action acerbates the situation.

The end result is one of them is dead and the other has a life in tatters.  Everyone within their respective orbits have been negatively affected.  Whatever happens, there are no winners here.

IMO, neither of them is blameless nor are they to blame.  Humans are funny people.

When Sybrina said that their meeting was like some kind of an accident,  maybe in the cosmos she was right.  I understood what she meant from the get-go and thought it was a shame she got so much heat over it.


All IMO!
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 01:07:47 PM
I'm just going to state, I don't think you are fully aware of the meaning of the term "established."

es·tab·lish   [ih-stab-lish]  verb (used with object)

3. to  show to be valid or true; prove: to establish the facts of the matter.
4. to cause to be accepted or recognized: to establish a custom; She established herself as a leading surgeon.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: who007 on July 16, 2012, 01:11:41 PM
Who said circle the truck?
....

George did.

DS: Okay, that’s where you parked. Okay. You park here, and then…is that when he comes and circles your car?
GZ: Yes, ma’am. It might’ve been closer in between here…these houses.
DS: Okay. Well, you can move it. Just move it.
GZ: Right around there.
DS: Right around here, okay. I’ll just…that’s okay. We’re just, we’re gonna “x” this one out cause it’s not where you meant. You meant that you came around here and ended up here.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay, you ended up here, and then…is that when he circles your car?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay. He comes out from where?
GZ: I don’t know.
DS: Okay. All of a sudden you just notice he’s circling your car.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.

DS: Okay. So he’s circling your car...
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Are you still on the phone?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
--------------------
Um, and then all of a sudden I see him circling my car and…and then he goes back into the darkness. So…
DS: Just a minute, you’re out, you pull out of your house, and you’re heading down the road as you’re looking at him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: You’re on the phone and he dips between 2 houses, is that what you mean?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: So you lose sight of him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am. And then he comes back out and circles my car. While I’m on the phone with the police.
DS: Okay, is he saying anything to you?
GZ: I couldn’t hear him, my windows were up.
DS: Okay

Video reenactment:

"And then he came back and he started walking up towards the grass and then came down and circled my car. And I told the operator that. He was circling my car."
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: who007 on July 16, 2012, 01:13:34 PM
es·tab·lish   [ih-stab-lish]  verb (used with object)

3. to  show to be valid or true; prove: to establish the facts of the matter.
4. to cause to be accepted or recognized: to establish a custom; She established herself as a leading surgeon.

Exactly.  It hasn't been established TM was not afraid of GZ.

Not by a  long shot.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 16, 2012, 01:14:04 PM
You are not right about the distance.  You have pushed it for months and then the crime screen sketches came out. 

You were very close about the distance going from the northern most pilar but not from the sidewalk at the "T" going due south.

My crime scene/ evidence map agrees exactly with the total station map in regards to almost every element.  I was off on the first aid kit by around ten feet.  The rest were cited almost exactly where I placed them from photos. 

The distance from where GZ stood to the shell casing is near 45 feet, according to google earth.  If you have competing claims, produce an illustration, please.  Mine are available anytime you care to post it, and have been for months. 

All I've heard from you is accusations and speculation backed with nothing. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 16, 2012, 01:40:38 PM
You do realize his feet are farther south than his head, right? And that his feet are south of a line made by the dividing wall...  you seem confused.  Have you seen an overlay of the total station map with google earth or google maps?  Or are you doing this all in your own head? 
He knows which direction he fell?  Explain, please. Does George know the difference between forward and backwards?  Because he's claimed both IMO. 

I'm only quoting a small portion of this so its known who I am responding to.  Yes, I said feet, and meant head.  The head is closer to the T than the feet and is on/slightly north of the wall dividing the two units.  Again, this is a final resting place and not where the fight ended and the actual shot occurred.  You were basing your measurements from where the two sidewalks meet and if the body moved down the hill after the shot, it would be farther from that spot than when the shot occurred.  I imagine the shot occurred quite close to the sidewalk as Z said he had just gotten off the sidewalk when he pulled his weapon.

I've already explained how someone can fall back and forward as the result from a single punch.  The punch to the nose, not coming straight on, would cause a reaction of the head and body rolling away from the punch which would represent the falling back.  If he went straight down like a ton of bricks (as if he were knocked out), it would be the only action his body would do, but then he wouldn't remember much else.  If instead, he's stunned but still functional, he tries to catch his balance as he's knocked back and to the side, he'd be falling foward as he tries to keep his feet.  I don't know if you've ever watched MMA fights, but if you had, you would see what I am saying.  The people who fall straight back are the ones that are knocked out.  The ones who are knocked off balance turn and try to scramble away.  The actions George describes is the later of the two and is followed up by him trying to push away from TM who takes him down. 

John describes them from being off the sidewalk to on the sidewalk as he yells at them.   The shot appears to have occurred off the sidewalk given where the body ends up, 10 or so feet away.  The fight moved from the grass, onto the sidewalk, with the body ending up eventually 10 feet or so away where it finally rested which is about 15 feet of movement in maybe 20-30 seconds.

I see nothing in Z's statements that don't match the witness testimony and evidence on the scene.   The one exception might be to where the cell phone ended up, but we don't know when it fell there.  Dee Dee seems to indicate she heard it hit the grass, which means she would have heard it prior to the fight.  I guess this could mean the argument started where the cell phone was, moved up to the T, then back down, but that would contradict pretty much all the witness testimony.  Another possibility was that he had the phone in his hands at all times and was using it as a weapon, but there doesn't appear to be any damage to the phone.  Still another possibility would be that the phone fell out of his pocket as he ran towards the T.  This would explain Dee Dee hearing it hit the grass and if the phone had not died yet, she'd still potentially be able to hear the conversation, assuming the headphones were no longer attached.  Of course given that her words to the start of the conversation don't match Z's, its possible the phone fell onto the grass as TM ran up to the T and she never actually heard anything else.

I think Z not remembering things exactly is fair game.  We have very little evidence to compare his recollection of what occurred on the NEN call with, so we just have his numerous statements and the call itself.  However, once witnesses start hearing the arguing and calls for help along with the location of the physical evidence, now we have something to corroborate his story with.  I think his story on the fight itself matches the physical evidence and witness statements which is why I'd suggest sticking to the  inconsistencies in his recollection while on the phone with NEN.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 01:52:33 PM
Exactly.  It hasn't been established TM was not afraid of GZ.

Not by a  long shot.

Not to you and it probably never will. But you can refute my points ( with evidence - not speculation if you want)

What evidence do you have that GZ confronted and attacked Trayvon Martin?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 16, 2012, 03:38:30 PM
leftwig:  we may as well give up, and agree to disagree because I don't find your arguments convincing. 

Yes I've seen MMA fights.  This was not one.  Neither person knows martial arts that I know of.  In those fights I've seen, when one person staggers visibly the other DOES something to take advantage of the opening.  George has NOTHING to say about what Trayvon did during this time, only that he himself did a little doggie paddle motion or something with his open hands....  and that he MAY have been pushed, or he MAY have fallen.  I find this omission and prevarication significant, and indicative of yet another section of the evening GZ is reluctant to discuss.  He NEVER discussed it in the interview room.  He only says something in passing when he does the walk thru, to cover himself IMO.  In other words, he made it up on the spot, and that's why the backwards/forwards contradiction exists, not some convoluted "he meant this when he said that" explanation. 

What makes infinitely more sense IMO is the idea that the punch to the nose happened much nearer to where the shot was fired and the shell casing and body were found.  THEN his statements make more sense, if you take into account he remembers the fight but is telling it slant. 

This is the SAME type of behavior he exhibits regarding the "sh*t, he's running" section.  GZ figures if he doesn't mention it, it didn't happen.  Then, when confronted with facts, like the recording or the actual terrain, GZ has trouble responding credibly, IMO. 

Did TM get on top of GZ? Yes.  Did the fight start the way GZ claims it did?  In my opinion, no. But this is a thread I started to ask how far the SPD got in their investigation.  I think Serino felt George was not honest, but he wasn't sure how to prove it regarding the events south of the T.  He wrote that he felt the injuries were "marginally" consistent with a life threatening situation and that GZ's story sounded "scripted." 

And that's where it ended until Dee Dee appears and a new investigation began.  What she heard is for another thread, but it seems to agree with the idea that the fight started closer to where the cell phone fell, or else the headphones were yanked out somewhere and what she heard was from the phone in TM's hand. 





Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 16, 2012, 03:48:28 PM
Not to you and it probably never will. But you can refute my points ( with evidence - not speculation if you want)

What evidence do you have that GZ confronted and attacked Trayvon Martin?


I know its a tough one. You can just concede if you prefer.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 16, 2012, 05:01:34 PM
What evidence do you have that GZ confronted and attacked Trayvon Martin?
The kid that was running away from the guy that spent the better part of five minutes stalking him in his car, then calling him a effin' punk and an a$$hole that was getting away as he got out of his truck to chase after him on foot ended up with a hole in the chest?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 16, 2012, 09:55:33 PM
Oh, Willis? This is  because you like to selectively edit and carefully place ellipses here is the most important part of the quote from Dee Dee...Of course that is my IMO!

What you have:

Quote
Dee Dee: He say he lost him…breathin’ har’, you know. And I like, he goin’…so he say he lost him. And then a couple…and then he say he right by his ass…he ru’, he go’ keep ru’ ’til hi’ dad house.

What is really is:

Quote


    POLICE OFFICER: OK. So you could tell he was emotional, like somebody who was, like, in fear?

    GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. He said he lost

    POLICE OFFICER: OK. He was breathing hard? OK.

    GIRLFRIEND: He said he had lost him. He was breathing hard, and—and I told him, "Keep running."

    POLICE OFFICER: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy?

    GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.

    POLICE OFFICER: OK.

    GIRLFRIEND: I said, "Keep running."

    POLICE OFFICER: OK.

    GIRLFRIEND: He said he ain’t gonna run, 'cause he said he's right by his father’s house.

    POLICE OFFICER: OK.

    GIRLFRIEND: So, and in a couple minutes, he said the man’s following him again, he’s behind him. I said, "Run! You going to run?" He said he’s not going to run. I could know he’s not going to run, because he out of breath. Then, he told me [inaudible] the guy getting close to him. I told him, "Run!" And then I told him, "Keep running!" He not going to run. And then he said—I told him, "Why are you not running?" He said, "I’m not running," because he’s tired, because I know he’s tired



Do you work for NBC now?  They might be in the market for someone with your talents. 
  ;)
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 17, 2012, 08:46:13 AM
Oh, Willis? This is  because you like to selectively edit and carefully place ellipses here is the most important part of the quote from Dee Dee...Of course that is my IMO!

What you have:

What is really is:

Do you work for NBC now?  They might be in the market for someone with your talents. 
  ;)

Clearly you and I are pasting from different transcripts any editing was not mine, i just googles one and selected a passage.  As for the statement that it was "A couple of minutes later," that's exactly the time frame of the "missing minutes" after the NE call ended and the 911 calls began. 

Seems to fit perfectly to me.  TM waited around John's backyard talking to DeeDee on the phone until GZ returned to the area with a working flashlight, IMO.  There is zero evidence that he went anywhere else except around the corner into  the dog walk area far enough that GZ's headlights could not shine on him - that's about two feet, BTW, and no farther south than his cell phone.  There is not a shred of proof that he went any farther south than that. 

Dee Dee wanted TM to run.  He was winded, and said he was GOING to walk, IMO and she f course has no way of knowing if he walked or not.  She does state he stayed on the phone until GZ came close to where TM was. 

I'm really not sure what you think I am selectively editing out here...  the accounts are basically the same, and as I said, I am using Dee Dee, who was NOT part of the SPD investigation to comment on what the SPD found before we heard about Dee Dee.  It's the move from the clubhouse are to the cut thru path that I am talking about mostly, since there is such an obvious timeline suggested by the NE call to measure GZ's statements against in that regard. 

No one knows what happened for certain behind the townhomes.  I think it's fairly clear by now that the evidence can be argued to be pro and con re: self defense.  But there is more than one person who heard the start of the incident - GZ and DeeDee. 

I'm unsure what you are alleging here.  Are you in the "TM went home, changed his pants, denied Chad his skittles, sat on the bench while Brandi who wasn't there observed him, then went back to find GZ without bothering to bring a baseball bat camp?" 

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 17, 2012, 09:04:37 AM
Does anyone think DeeDee will actually be called to testify.

I assume her statement alone, absent the opportunity to cross examine her,  is not admissable.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 17, 2012, 09:14:49 AM
leftwig:  we may as well give up, and agree to disagree because I don't find your arguments convincing. 

Yes I've seen MMA fights.  This was not one.  Neither person knows martial arts that I know of.  In those fights I've seen, when one person staggers visibly the other DOES something to take advantage of the opening.  George has NOTHING to say about what Trayvon did during this time, only that he himself did a little doggie paddle motion or something with his open hands....  and that he MAY have been pushed, or he MAY have fallen.  I find this omission and prevarication significant, and indicative of yet another section of the evening GZ is reluctant to discuss.  He NEVER discussed it in the interview room.  He only says something in passing when he does the walk thru, to cover himself IMO.  In other words, he made it up on the spot, and that's why the backwards/forwards contradiction exists, not some convoluted "he meant this when he said that" explanation. 

What makes infinitely more sense IMO is the idea that the punch to the nose happened much nearer to where the shot was fired and the shell casing and body were found.  THEN his statements make more sense, if you take into account he remembers the fight but is telling it slant. 

This is the SAME type of behavior he exhibits regarding the "sh*t, he's running" section.  GZ figures if he doesn't mention it, it didn't happen.  Then, when confronted with facts, like the recording or the actual terrain, GZ has trouble responding credibly, IMO. 

Did TM get on top of GZ? Yes.  Did the fight start the way GZ claims it did?  In my opinion, no. But this is a thread I started to ask how far the SPD got in their investigation.  I think Serino felt George was not honest, but he wasn't sure how to prove it regarding the events south of the T.  He wrote that he felt the injuries were "marginally" consistent with a life threatening situation and that GZ's story sounded "scripted." 

And that's where it ended until Dee Dee appears and a new investigation began.  What she heard is for another thread, but it seems to agree with the idea that the fight started closer to where the cell phone fell, or else the headphones were yanked out somewhere and what she heard was from the phone in TM's hand.

We can agree that neither of us buys the others account. 

As for MMA, I was only referring to the first punch that lands.  When someone gets hit by a hard punch to the face, generally one of two things happens.  They get knocked out and fall straight down, or the punch knocks the back and off balance and they try to keep their feet to move away.  It seems apparent that GZ didn't get knocked out by the punch and one can get sent back by a punch and fall forward as they try to catch their balance.  Its not in any way unrealistic and unbelievable and you see it happen fairly often in MMA fights.

George might not have any idea what TM did for 30 seconds or more if the first punch was the one that broke his nose.  I've never had my nose broken, but have been hit in the nose by a baseball and I couldn't tell you what any of the other guys on the field were doing or where the ball went after I got hit. 

I personally think you are too hung up on someone remembering every detail of a conversation and the exact timeline of what occurred during that call.  Every witness who has given multiple statements has had inconsistencies.  The police couldn't even look at the dead body and accurately agree on what he was wearing.  The human mind just doesn't work the way you assume George's must work if he's to be telling the truth.

Dee Dee does little to contradict Z's account and other witness accounts of how the argument and  fight started at the T.  TM's cell phone is the farthest item south and if Dee Dee heard the phone land in the grass, it seems most likely to me she heard it land in the grass as TM ran north to the T.  How else would you figure she heard the phone hit the grass before the fight started?  Did TM drop the phone as he talked to Z bend over to pick it up only to drop it later as the fight was nearing its end? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: FromBelow on July 17, 2012, 09:20:10 AM
Does anyone think DeeDee will actually be called to testify.

I assume her statement alone, absent the opportunity to cross examine her,  is not admissable.

What else do they have? AFAIK no discovery released so far provides evidence that contradicts GZ's story. Dee Dee's statement is, from what I understand, a significant part of what they are trying to build a case from. If they don't try to use her then...nada AFAIK. Well, Sabrina's testimony that it was Trayvon screaming for help. That would be easily countered with people on GZ's side that say it was GZ.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 17, 2012, 10:58:48 AM
What else do they have? AFAIK no discovery released so far provides evidence that contradicts GZ's story. Dee Dee's statement is, from what I understand, a significant part of what they are trying to build a case from. If they don't try to use her then...nada AFAIK. Well, Sabrina's testimony that it was Trayvon screaming for help. That would be easily countered with people on GZ's side that say it was GZ.

I agree.  I think they absolutely have to use her as a witness.  I think that MOM will handle her very carefully because the jury is not going to like him going after a 16-17 yr old.  Particularly, since they are there because of the death of a 17 yr old.

I don't know how credible the jury will think she is.   There is the big issue of why she didn't come forward.  Why she had to be "tracked" down according to Crump.  I don't necessarily believe that happened in the way he has described it.  AFAIAC, her testimony is a benefit to both the prosecution and the defense.  It depends on how each other negates the the other.

I also think that Sybrina Fulton would carry more weight with jurors than RZ, Sr.  She is the grieving mother of a young man who was gunned down.  She trumps RZ, Sr because his son is still alive.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 17, 2012, 11:33:32 AM
the the other.

I also think that Sybrina Fulton would carry more weight with jurors than RZ, Sr.  She is the grieving mother of a young man who was gunned down.  She trumps RZ, Sr because his son is still alive.

Let's not forget that Mr Martin had some difficulties identifying TM's voice.
I assume each side can produce gaggles presumably opinionated witnesses. If the witness has a reason to be biased I ( and probably most jurors) would tend to doubt that testimony, Its the witnesses who's opinions are contrary to their apparent interests that will pull weight.

I think John's testimony and the injuries are the best evidence that we can use to reach a conclusion about which actor was yelling for help.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: cboldt on July 17, 2012, 11:34:16 AM
Defense's Motion to Disqualify Trial Judge is 'long on conjecture and irrelevant and inaccurate bombast...., short on actual fact, and devoid of legal merit'.

Ouch. Talk about a slap-down...

The state has demonstrated a remarkably keen mastery of bombast, itself.  On the first few pages of the motion, it sets up a straw man.  I presume the straw man will be successfully demolished.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: FromBelow on July 17, 2012, 11:44:58 AM
I think John's testimony and the injuries are the best evidence that we can use to reach a conclusion about which actor was yelling for help.

I agree completely. Those two things support GZ's claim it was him calling for help. The guy on the bottom is the one getting beaten and shows signs of it. The guy on the top is the one that doesn't have any signs of being beaten. The guy on the bottom does the screaming.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 17, 2012, 02:03:30 PM
I agree.  I think they absolutely have to use her as a witness.  I think that MOM will handle her very carefully because the jury is not going to like him going after a 16-17 yr old.  Particularly, since they are there because of the death of a 17 yr old.

I don't know how credible the jury will think she is.   There is the big issue of why she didn't come forward.  Why she had to be "tracked" down according to Crump.  I don't necessarily believe that happened in the way he has described it.  AFAIAC, her testimony is a benefit to both the prosecution and the defense.  It depends on how each other negates the the other.

I also think that Sybrina Fulton would carry more weight with jurors than RZ, Sr.  She is the grieving mother of a young man who was gunned down.  She trumps RZ, Sr because his son is still alive.

Please try to stay on topic when you can. DeeDee is subject worthy of her own thread IMO.  This thread is supposed to be about the SPD's initial investigatation, which didn't really include her, did it? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 17, 2012, 02:10:11 PM
Please try to stay on topic when you can. DeeDee is subject worthy of her own thread IMO.  This thread is supposed to be about the SPD's initial investigatation, which didn't really include her, did it?

Why don't you troll someone else?  You are getting tiresome.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 17, 2012, 02:45:50 PM
We can agree that neither of us buys the others account. 

As for MMA, I was only referring to the first punch that lands.  When someone gets hit by a hard punch to the face, generally one of two things happens.  They get knocked out and fall straight down, or the punch knocks the back and off balance and they try to keep their feet to move away.  It seems apparent that GZ didn't get knocked out by the punch and one can get sent back by a punch and fall forward as they try to catch their balance.  Its not in any way unrealistic and unbelievable and you see it happen fairly often in MMA fights.  eorge might not have any idea what TM did for 30 seconds or more if the first punch was the one that broke his nose.  I've never had my nose broken, but have been hit in the nose by a baseball and I couldn't tell you what any of the other guys on the field were doing or where the ball went after I got hit. 

Yes, people hit hard will stagger to keep their feet under them.  This is not unique to MMA.  They don't necessarily always stagger 40 feet in a straight line, however that seems odd to me that GZ claims he did this but has no recollection of it at any other time except when he suddenly realizes he needs to fill a hle in the tale he's been pushing.  Also, yes, if you were hit in the face with a baseball I doubt you remember what the third baseman did.  But if the CATCHER started hitting you, or pushed you all the way to the pitcher's mound you might recall that, I bet.  Or if you staggered to the mound and he followed you, spouting fould language, etc you might recall that he said something.  That's the distance - 45.5 feet IMO that GZ stumbled, more or less if his story is true.  The same distance a batter who charges a pitcher has to cover if the pitcher steps off the mound to meet him at the forward edge of the pitcher's mound. 

Quote
I personally think you are too hung up on someone remembering every detail of a conversation and the exact timeline of what occurred during that call.  Every witness who has given multiple statements has had inconsistencies.  The police couldn't even look at the dead body and accurately agree on what he was wearing.  The human mind just doesn't work the way you assume George's must work if he's to be telling the truth.

I've said my piece and more about the serious contradictions in GZ's account of how he moved from the clubhouse to the cut thru.  You ignore them.  I'm done with you.  I'm not "hung up" except in the sense that you and others can't resolve the conflicts and contradiction except to suggest that GZ has memory lapses that extend to creating competing false memories, IMO.  I'm not impressed.  Like I said, we are going to have to agree to disagree at some point. 

I've given long and serious thought to how GZ might be telling the truth, but it just doesn't add up to me because he contradicts his own tale and multiple accounts cannot all be true by definition. 



Quote

Dee Dee does little to contradict Z's account and other witness accounts of how the argument and  fight started at the T.  TM's cell phone is the farthest item south and if Dee Dee heard the phone land in the grass, it seems most likely to me she heard it land in the grass as TM ran north to the T.  How else would you figure she heard the phone hit the grass before the fight started?  Did TM drop the phone as he talked to Z bend over to pick it up only to drop it later as the fight was nearing its end?

Dee Dee isn't really part of this topic, but as I have said already in this thread, her story makes sense to me in that I think she tells what she heard well enough given her ability. If she were interested in pushing a false narrative I would imagine she'd come up with a lot more sinister things to say, don't you?  GZ is educated enough to include a verbal death threat in his account, which I find indicative of what Serino means when he called GZ's story "scripted."    That this death threat came BEFORE TM would have secured the other guy's weapon seems contrived, to me as well.  After, I might believe it, but before is just ludicrous to me.  According to GZ, TM never seems to have control of GZ's hands nor even attempt to control his hands.  Why would that be?  Look what GZ says he DID when he heard the death threat - he got his gun and shot the kid. 

But in regards to where the cell phone was found, I think what she heard was the disconnection of the earphones from the phone itself.  That doesn't mean either object hit the grass at that time, that's just her interpretation of the audio fidelity change that took place at that moment.  She claims she hears TM say "get off, get off" and I'm sure she can and will be challenged on that point if she is cross-examined, but she said it.  It's a damning statement for George, if the implication a jury believe is that he tried to illegally detain the teen.  Sanford PD did not have this part of the story, true or not, in their investigation. 

This thread is about how far they got, the SPD.  Please stay on topic.  If you want to discuss Dee Dee, start  a separate thread. 

The cell phone meant little to them, and in fact the earphones are a subject of no small controversy since they did not seem to be properly secured at the scene.  I am hoping that w13's iphone photo of the body shows the earphones position at the time he saw the body.  Of course this was after the shot, and GZ had manipulated the body in some fashion that we can't be sure of, but I doubt he folded up the earphones and put them in TM's pocket. 

I'm not sure what to think about the placement of the phone except that if GZ's story is correct, then TM seems to have had control of it the whole distance of the migration, or that GZ snatched it from TM and that was one source of the fight, who knows?  GZ may have been struck on the head by the cell phone, too - that's a possibility to consider.  Was the phone tested for blood/DNA?  That's not my area of expertise here....  If the phone was indeed in TM's hand, it begs the question of how premeditated his alleged "attack" was, and why someone who plans to hit someone stays on the phone with his girlfriend, etc. 

"A fight that moved south" as witnesses seem to hear also would include IMO some words exchanged while GZ is where his keys were found and TM where his tan bag was found, then GZ closing the distance to the bag, and the two in some kind of clinch up until where the body is found, which may be where the punch to the nose happened, and GZ feels he was being hit with some foreign object, not just a fist, and that object is the phone until he fires a shot and TM drops it.  Is that what happened?  I don't know but it fits the evidence and testimony better than GZ's account. 

If you are trying to win an argument, you need to stick to "how does the prosecution prove what GZ says is a lie and prove what they said happened is true beyond a reasonable doubt?"  But that's not the topic of this thread. 

Norm Wolfinger  may have felt the SPD didn't get that far.  Angela Corey feels her investigation did, IMO.  She's charged GZ with murder 2.  But again, that's another topic. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 18, 2012, 07:31:13 AM
What else do they have? AFAIK no discovery released so far provides evidence that contradicts GZ's story. Dee Dee's statement is, from what I understand, a significant part of what they are trying to build a case from. If they don't try to use her then...nada AFAIK. Well, Sabrina's testimony that it was Trayvon screaming for help. That would be easily countered with people on GZ's side that say it was GZ.

They have GZ's contradictory statements the don't match the recording of his call.  GZ will sink his own ship, IMO.  Look what he's managed to do so far.... 

The state also claims, just today again in filing their rebuttal to the motion to recuse Judge Lester, that they have witnesses (plural) to a chase, which is a large part of their case.  keep in mind we have yet to see all of the discovery and that the prosecution has every reason to sheild their trial strategy for as long as possible.  It's not over till the fat lady sings. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: AJ on July 18, 2012, 07:39:50 AM
They have GZ's contradictory statements the don't match the recording of his call.

They do if you have the time to properly investigate. As I've said before, take the walk through (or any statement to SPD) and after each sentence ask yourself "where does this fit in the non-emergency call?"

Quote
The state also claims, just today again in filing their rebuttal to the motion to recuse Judge Lester, that they have witnesses (plural) to a chase, which is a large part of their case.

I suspect these witnesses will simply be the ones who said the argument/scuffle moved from the north to the south - not necessarily a "chase" - just movement.

Quote
Keep in mind we have yet to see all of the discovery and that the prosecution has every reason to sheild their trial strategy for as long as possible.  It's not over till the fat lady sings.

I'm not sure if we do or not, but I did send GZLC a message asking if they could post updated numbers - a while back Mr. O'Mara said in an interview that his office had received 60% of the evidence and the public had received 10% -- of course, this was quite a while back. I asked if they could give those updated percents.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: cboldt on July 18, 2012, 08:10:58 AM
I suspect these witnesses will simply be the ones who said the argument/scuffle moved from the north to the south - not necessarily a "chase" - just movement.

De la Riona's defense of the state's evidence, beyond the shooting, is largely equivocal.  Evidence of a chase, he says.  Well, who was chasing who?  De la Rionda didn't say there was evidence that Zimmerman was chasing Martin.  Why not?  I don't think DeeDee provides evidence that Zimmerman was chasing Martin, and none of the on-scene witnesses have any evidence to support that, so he just says "there was a chase" and lets the reader jump to a conclusion.  Similarly with "there was a struggle."  Ahem, Zimmerman says there was a struggle, too.  I don't see how this observation makes the state's case any stronger.  The issue isn't whether or not there was a struggle (just like the issue isn't whether or not Zimmerman shot Martin), so saying "there was a struggle," without more, provides no positive support for whatever the state's theory is.  The presence of inconsistencies is common - the state's witnesses and defense witnesses all have inconsistencies to some degree.  If De la Rionda could make an argument that the state's evidence for murder is strong, he would point to a specific inconsistency.  The only item he mentions that isn't equivocal or generic is Sybrina's and cousin's statements that Martin is the screamer.

I think de la Rionda is quite accurately summarizing the strength of the state's case in footnote 3.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2012, 08:30:08 AM
They have GZ's contradictory statements the don't match the recording of his call.  GZ will sink his own ship, IMO.  Look what he's managed to do so far.... 

The state also claims, just today again in filing their rebuttal to the motion to recuse Judge Lester, that they have witnesses (plural) to a chase, which is a large part of their case.

They has  already, introduced two  witnesses to a chase. Witness 2 who testified at one point to witnessing a chase - then refuted her initial statement. The other is DeeDee.

Cheer up! Maybe the defense can introduce psychics as collaborating expert witnesses.
.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 18, 2012, 09:24:53 AM
Where does Z say he stumbled 45 feet after the punch?  He says he stumbled to the south and tried to get away and TM took him down.  His statement says he was trying to get to his feet while on the ground and TM would keep putting him down.  He said he moved to get off the sidewalk because he was getting his head slammed into it.  I don't know why you (Willis) have this impression that Z says he was hit, fell down and didn't move until he shot TM.  No one seems to be saying that but you.

In the baseball incident, I would know if someone was hitting me, I wouldn't know exactly where I was locate or how I moved as I was trying to get away.  I wouldn't be able to see very well and would be purely acting defensively until I recovered from the blow.  In my case, it took me about a minute or so before I got back to my feet and was able to see clearly and I didn't have someone assaulting me.   I'm really not sure what is so difficult to understand that once being hit, Z probably isn't going to give an exact blow by blow, foot by foot account of what happened.

I've stated fairly often that there are some apparent inconsistencies in Z's statements and exactly what occurred on the 911 call.  I think many of these can be explained with one very reasonable correction in the timeline.  I don't think TM circled his car at the clubhouse, but went around his car and that Z was either on hold with NEN at the time, or was just starting the conversation.  I think he was pulling out of the clubhouse parking and moving around the corner as the call started.  I think this can be corroborated once his full cell phone records become available which will show the time he placed the call versus when the NEN operator began talking, but we won't know that until those records are released.

Why would evidence on the ground be indicative of where words were exchanged?  I could see if all of the evidence had fallen at one location, it might indicate the two mutually throwing down there as they prepared for a fight.  Why would the tan 711 bag being found in its location be indicative of arguing at that location?  It seems to me that the bag could have come out just about anywhere and found its final resting place after blowing around.  I just see very little significance in the location of that bag.

We'll leave Dee Dee's statements to the Dee Dee discussion thread, but I will say that the SPD did never got an interview with her.  They attempted to access TM's cell phone, but were denied access by Tracy, I assume upon advice from his lawyer.  Had they been able to interview Dee Dee, I'm not sure they would have put much weight on her account and I am guessing here statement would have looked different had Crump and the media not gotten to her first. 

The only farther Corey got than the SPD was Dee Dee's interview and a bunch of research into Z's background, courtesy of the FBI.  The SPD was denied access to Dee Dee, so I can't really blame them there.   Given the lack of evidence Corey and the FBI have found in the past 2-3 months, I'd say the SPD was pretty well spot on in their investigation. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 18, 2012, 10:12:58 AM
Where does Z say he stumbled 45 feet after the punch?
Interestingly, he never says it. The very closest he comes is during the re-enactment video. He says he was punched in the face. He then says he stumbled *forward*, "I fell down, he pushed me down, somehow he got on top of me". The detective then asks him where, and it's almost like you can see George go, "Sh*t, the body ended up over there". So he revises his story again to 'I was trying to push him away from me" as walks forward and waves his arms around a bit. He stops before he gets to the tree that is, btw, right in the middle of where they'd be if they were struggling.

Quote
I don't know why you (Willis) have this impression that Z says he was hit, fell down and didn't move until he shot TM.
That's -exactly- the statement that George gave several times: punched and knocked backwards, into the grass, with the first punch, punchy-punch, head slammy-slam etc.

Nowhere does he mention any 30-40 foot stumble while trying to get Martin off of him. He doesn't need to give a foot-by-foot statement, but 'sucker-punched and knocked down with one blow' is not the same thing as 'punched, knocked off balance, stumbled five-plus body lengths while trying to get Martin off of me' are not the same thing. It leads me to think he's not being forthright as to how the fight started.

Quote
I've stated fairly often that there are some apparent inconsistencies in Z's statements and exactly what occurred on the 911 call.  I think many of these can be explained with one very reasonable correction in the timeline.  I don't think TM circled his car at the clubhouse, but went around his car and that Z was either on hold with NEN at the time, or was just starting the conversation.  I think he was pulling out of the clubhouse parking and moving around the corner as the call started.  I think this can be corroborated once his full cell phone records become available which will show the time he placed the call versus when the NEN operator began talking, but we won't know that until those records are released.

I offered a very similar scenario earlier in this thread: George basically follows Martin the entire way on to TTL.
Quote from: dragonash
George sees Martin at 1460, he slows down but drives past, decides that Martin is out of place. He parks at the Clubhouse, dials NEN. As he's waiting to get through, Martin comes back into view just as the dispatcher comes on; George sees Martin walking past his car and turning right. George gives the address for the Clubhouse, then pulls out of the Clubhouse and follows behind Martin in his car. He finally stops at the side of the road on TTL when Martin, instead of continuing south on TTL, goes straight ahead up the cut-through.

George would be driving at Martin's walking speed, so it would take longer than the 20-30 seconds if he was just driving, so it might explain some of the car sounds that some have noticed in the recording. It would explain why George first gives the Clubhouse address, then later on gives directions to past the Clubhouse. Gives Martin plenty of time to 'circle George's car' and run up the cut-through and turn towards the back entrance.


There's probably -just- enough time for Martin to walk from the Clubhouse to the cut-through in the two-odd minutes or so of the call, maybe with a 'circling the car' thrown in, especially if Martin starts running from very close to George's truck.

Thing is, I can't see how the differences beween this version and the version that George gives can just be handwaved away as 'due to stress' or whatever. I assume George is telling a false version purpose. Perhaps he (wrongly) assumes that he would be legally responsible in some fashion for the shooting if he was 'following' Martin?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 18, 2012, 11:03:22 AM
I think you are confusing what Z actually says with your interpretation of what he says.  You believe that when he ways he was punched and fell back into the grass that he fell straight back and down.  Again, he's not watching this happen, its happening to him.  Its dark, its raining and he just got his nose broken.  No one in that situation is going to be able to say exactly how he got to a certain point.  He knows he got hit, he knows he went to the ground, he knows TM ends up on top.  He's got the injuries to corroborate the story and I don't see any evidence or witness statements that contradict his story of what happened from the first punch until he shot TM.

Why would he mention stumbling 30-40 feet?  The only people I see suggesting this narrative are those that seem to ignore that wrestling on the ground with Z trying to get up for 60 seconds or better would occur in the same area with no movement.  No one is saying Z stumbled 30'-40' before TM got on top of him and then they barely moved from that point on. 

Why would you assume TM walked past Z's vehicle at the clubhouse and continued to walk down TTL?  Dee Dee mentions TM running into the complex or at least some form of running prior to him noticing Z.  I'd suggest that this first bit of running she details might well be him seeing Z sitting at the clubhouse, then running to lose him, not running to get under the mail thingy as Dee Dee describes.   If he ran to the T, it would take him maybe 20-30 seconds depending on how hard he was busting tail.  This would fit Z's description of him coming back from around that corner, then to circle his vehicle and check him out.

I think this fits better than Z following TM down TTL.  If Z was only following TM all this time, how could TM know in the dark that some crazy white guy was on the phone following him?  If he identified that Z was white, crazy and on the phone as he passed the clubhouse, it would be a reason for him running once he rounded the corner onto TTL.  Z only mentions TM running once after spotting him walking in the yard and looking at all the houses, while Dee Dee has him running multiple times (into the complex to the mail thingy and then away from Z's parked car and to his father's house).  I think the most likely explanation for this would have TM running after he walked by Z's car at the clubhouse, where George couldn't see him due to the bushes blocking his view.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 18, 2012, 11:35:40 AM
GZ marked a postion on the map that resolve his conflicting accounts and explains the inconsistencies, IMO.  That position is at the first corner of TTL, likely facing the mailboxes. 

The timing of the NE call works there and the repeated statements that GZ was "by the clubhouse" (just not at the parking lot) finally make sense if you listen to the interview where he is played the NE call recording. 

He struck this position out and amended it to the final parking space jsut before he told the "doubled back/circled the car/ hand in waistband" story for the first time.   And, notably GZ always leaves out the running unless prompted to speak about it, and then he is very quiet or defensive.  In GZ's account TM would never have run, and if the call had not been recorded SPD would not know he did. 

Forgetting thing around a trauma is normal.  Making up competing false accounts is not.  IMO GZ's statements to police are not random inconsistencies, they are a clear pattern of obfuscation, false narratives and deliberatew omissions that fit a pattern to show clearly that he has told the story of how hew moved from the clubhouse to the T in a manner that is not so; and can be proven in court.  After the NE call ends, the pattern continues IMO but the proof is more circumstantial. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: AJ on July 18, 2012, 12:08:45 PM
Making up competing false accounts is not.

You sure about that? https://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm

A traumatic event, compounded by ADHD... no way your brain could make up some details that didn't happen? My reason for pointing to that source is to show how feeble the brain is. Simply telling someone something happened can cause false memories. With that being true, why couldn't it occur in highly traumatic situations with or without other psychological disorders compounding it?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Mojo56 on July 18, 2012, 12:57:17 PM
re: remembering what happened...I recently was involved in a fight at my bar & grill. 3 guys came in and started an altercation with one of my customers. I came from behind the bar to break it up and the next thing I know I'm involved in a one on one fight with one of the instigators. The fight started at the midpoint of the bar. The next thing I remember is the guy has me in a headlock and we're over the pool table which is 30 feet away. We're actually on the opposite side of the pool table which runs perpendicular to the bar. We traversed 30+ feet and made our way around a pool table and I have ZERO memory of how this happened. I can fully understand how GZ might not be able to remember a lot of what happened after he got punched.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2012, 01:02:54 PM
re: remembering what happened...I recently was involved in a fight at my bar & grill. 3 guys came in and started an altercation with one of my customers. I came from behind the bar to break it up and the next thing I know I'm involved in a one on one fight with one of the instigators. The fight started at the midpoint of the bar. The next thing I remember is the guy has me in a headlock and we're over the pool table which is 30 feet away. We're actually on the opposite side of the pool table which runs perpendicular to the bar. We traversed 30+ feet and made our way around a pool table and I have ZERO memory of how this happened. I can fully understand how GZ might not be able to remember a lot of what happened after he got punched.

I have posted of a similar personal experience. Save your breath/fingers  it doesn't fit some peoples fantasy narrative.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 18, 2012, 01:04:28 PM
re: remembering what happened...I recently was involved in a fight at my bar & grill. 3 guys came in and started an altercation with one of my customers. I came from behind the bar to break it up and the next thing I know I'm involved in a one on one fight with one of the instigators. The fight started at the midpoint of the bar. The next thing I remember is the guy has me in a headlock and we're over the pool table which is 30 feet away. We're actually on the opposite side of the pool table which runs perpendicular to the bar. We traversed 30+ feet and made our way around a pool table and I have ZERO memory of how this happened. I can fully understand how GZ might not be able to remember a lot of what happened after he got punched.

Yes but when asked later did you leave out the migration of the fight, or assume your opponent did nothing of consequence while you moved over there? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 18, 2012, 01:33:30 PM
GZ marked a postion on the map that resolve his conflicting accounts and explains the inconsistencies, IMO.  That position is at the first corner of TTL, likely facing the mailboxes. 

The timing of the NE call works there and the repeated statements that GZ was "by the clubhouse" (just not at the parking lot) finally make sense if you listen to the interview where he is played the NE call recording. 

He struck this position out and amended it to the final parking space jsut before he told the "doubled back/circled the car/ hand in waistband" story for the first time.   And, notably GZ always leaves out the running unless prompted to speak about it, and then he is very quiet or defensive.  In GZ's account TM would never have run, and if the call had not been recorded SPD would not know he did. 

Forgetting thing around a trauma is normal.  Making up competing false accounts is not.  IMO GZ's statements to police are not random inconsistencies, they are a clear pattern of obfuscation, false narratives and deliberatew omissions that fit a pattern to show clearly that he has told the story of how hew moved from the clubhouse to the T in a manner that is not so; and can be proven in court.  After the NE call ends, the pattern continues IMO but the proof is more circumstantial.

Um, GZ's first account does have TM approaching him with his hand in his waistband and TM running.  His NEN call is his first account and probably most accurate of all he's given though some statements are vague enough on that call that some details need filled in.  He never mentions being parked at the clubhouse during his NEN call which tells me that by the time he gets around to talking about where he is, he's already moved from that location. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2012, 01:43:56 PM
If your asking me, I was at the crime site when first queried, so all I did was point out where it started  and where it ended and a brief synopsis. while holding a blood soaked towel to my face. Both points were obvious. After the 2-3 minute interview A friend drove he to the ER for stitches.

When I latter gave statements in other venues I don't know if I tried to fill in the  detail of the movement from pt a to pt b or not. Because of the crime scene interview I was cognizant of the distance traveled. Witnesses said I was holding a wrist of the bad guyin one hand and swinging without great effect with the other hand. To me the important points were the initial hit and the actions that occurred at the terminal point. I remember those details to this day.

I don't remember being asked about how we got to point B after I explained standing up and grabbing the assailant at point A.
If asked what I probably would just say I'm not sure.

Had I collapsed at point B it would be because of the strike I had  received at point A. It is quite conceivable that my narrative would have been.
Quote
Some stranger struck, without warning or any apparent reason  me in my face, with a  bottle which knocked me senseless. When I recovered my senses he was cutting me with the broken bottle.

Fortunately ( you don't have to share this opinion) I was not knocked senseless.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 18, 2012, 01:55:42 PM
You sure about that? https://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm

A traumatic event, compounded by ADHD... no way your brain could make up some details that didn't happen? My reason for pointing to that source is to show how feeble the brain is. Simply telling someone something happened can cause false memories. With that being true, why couldn't it occur in highly traumatic situations with or without other psychological disorders compounding it?

Cited article is completely off-topic, and refers to IMPLANTED false memories.  Not ones self-genereated that fit a poorly executed alibi for a crime.

from the article cited:

Quote
In the lost-in-the-mall study, implantation of false memory occurred when another person, usually a family member, claimed that the incident happened.

No one TOLD George that he contacted with dispatch while parked at the clubhouse's north facade.  No one told George that he should move his car to where he could see the teen.  No one told George that he should mark a spot on the map where he "wasn't."  No one told George to omit the idea that Trayvon ran from his sight, either. No one told George that Martin doubled back and circled his car, hand in waistband and then told him to insist later that this  event occurred by the clubhouse, in total contradiction to his earlier story of being approached while parked near the cut thru.  IMO George makes this sh*t up as he goes, and it's no wonder it comes out inconsistent and contradictory.  No one told George that the primary reason he got out of his car was to find a street sign, or go to RVC to look up a house number he never reported.  These (IMO) false memories were not implanted by others.  IMO they are the acts of a man lying to investigators and getting himself caught on tape in some of those lies, and reverting to prevarication, silence and "I don't remember" when confronted.   

No one told George to recall falling backwards several times but then to "re-enact" stumbling forward 24 feet when the body was 45 feet away IMO.  No one told GZ to tell Mark Osterman he was punched and fell backwards onto his arse first and then onto his back, if MO is indeed recalling the tale correctly when he spoke to FDLE.  These are not implanted false memories from childhood, told him by a relative.  It makes me sick to my stomach to think about what this article about traumatic childhood events that are denied by relatives SHOULD be in reference to, and let's not go there in a thread about SPD's investigation. 

IMO someone DID tell him about how a verbal death threat looks good at a SYG hearing, even though it's nonsensical to think someone would issue one before gaining control of his opponent's weapon.  Someone DID tell him that it looks bad if he followed the kid.  Someone did tell him that he needed to be in fear for his life in order to claim self defense.  And Chis Serino said he felt GZ's story sounded "scripted."  Mark Osterman admitted to FDLE that he was on the scene that night and spoke to cops and to GZ before GZ was transported away.  He claims the conversations were not "in depth," but it's a tacit admission that a conversation of some type did take place.  That's a suspicious activity IMO if I ever read about one. Prosecutors know that, but the SPD didn't seem to know that, or include that in any report we have seen.  SPD didn't know Mark Osterman was with Shellie around that time or that GZ's car was moved, either which is tantamount to interfering with a police investigation IMO if it came at the advice of a former deputy who should know better. 

I respectfully suggest that you open up your mind, if you have to use a crowbar.  This guy is unclean IMO.  His story stinks and no one here can explain the contradictions, much less George himself.  Where was he when he connected to a human, Sean the recorded dispatcher?  He seems to claim two places - at the cut thru and at the clubhouse parking lot.  Which "memory" lines up with the recorded call, because IMO neither one does.  IMO the recorded call lines up with the position he marked on a map at the first bend in TTL, where he would have been observing TM by the mail-shed-thing, as Dee Dee calls it.  And this position resolves inconsistencies and seeming contradictions as well.  It's just not the story GZ "recalls," in any of the multiple versions he's told SPD investigators. 

There are none so blind as those who will not see. 




Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2012, 02:01:38 PM
In a somewhat related point.

What was the name of the group who performed 'when the wall comes tumbling down?'
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: 11Rand on July 18, 2012, 02:26:56 PM
I assume George is telling a false version purpose. Perhaps he (wrongly) assumes that he would be legally responsible in some fashion for the shooting if he was 'following' Martin?

Whether talking about following in general or specifically following after he got out of his car, I don't think that's it. In his first five accounts (written statement, 2 accounts to Singleton, Re-enactment, and Voice Stress Analysis), GZ says he got out of his car to try and give the dispatcher more specific information as to location (not knowing the name of Twin Trees, looking for a street sign and ideally an address to go with it was desired). But in three of the accounts (written, 1st Singleton account, and VSA (albeit as part of a follow up question by the Investigator), GZ does say he also was trying to verify the direction TM was headed, to tell the dispatcher. GZ’s a little more vague about this in the 2nd Singleton account, and doesn’t really get into it in the re-enactment. *In the VSA, see question/answer regarding “following” at 6:58:25 PM. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: 11Rand on July 18, 2012, 02:40:42 PM
I don't think TM circled his car at the clubhouse, but went around his car and that Z was either on hold with NEN at the time, or was just starting the conversation.  I think he was pulling out of the clubhouse parking and moving around the corner as the call started.  I think this can be corroborated once his full cell phone records become available which will show the time he placed the call versus when the NEN operator began talking

When I first watched the re-enactment and VSA, I erroneously thought GZ was saying he was talking to the dispatcher as TM passed him at the clubhouse. In watching both again, I think what he actually said is consistent with or at least doesn’t contradict his written statement, and 2 accounts to Singleton. (Although, I’m still not sure about the underlined parts. Is he perhaps recalling the which way/direction questions after TM passed his car near the cut-through, and plugging them in here?).

VSA: So I drove past him and I went to the clubhouse. I called the non-emergency line. As I was on the phone with the non-emergency line, he walked past my car, and I lost visual contact of him. [How much time elapsed? “Gets through” to dispatcher] The operator asked me if I could get to somewhere where I could see or at least give him a direction of where he was headed. I said yes, so I pulled out [gestures with hand indicating turn right, down Twin Trees] and I drove adjacent to the clubhouse. . . . When I was at the clubhouse, I gave them the clubhouse address.

Re-Enactment: I drove past him and I went to the clubhouse. [Driver/Investigator: He caught up to you up here?] Yes, I called the non-emergency line and when I got through -- [seemingly reminding driver where to stop, GZ gestures with hand and says:] I parked at the clubhouse -- and they asked me where I was, and I told them the clubhouse and I think I gave them the address to the clubhouse. [Driver pulls into spot at clubhouse]. This is where I just stopped to call, to call, and then he walked past me. And he kept looking at my car. And still looking around at the houses and stuff. [How much time elapsed? “Gets through” to dispatcher] So then dispatcher said where did he go, what direction did he go in, and I said I don't know. I lost -- cause he cut down here and made a right, I guess it's Twin Trees Lane, he made a right in there -- and they said what direction did he go in and I said I don't know, I can't see him. And they said can you get to somewhere you can see him, and I said yeah I can. So I backed out. [Driver backs out, turns right on TTL, goes left around bend].

Regarding GZ’s cell phone records, I agree these should help a lot to clarify the timeline. If GZ was on hold for a few minutes, then TM would’ve had time to pass GZ while on hold at the clubhouse and walk ahead to the cut-through before GZ got there.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2012, 02:48:22 PM
Even with a NEN line, is it common to wait in a queue for a dispatcher?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 18, 2012, 02:57:01 PM
Actually, I think we should look to some of Doris Singleton's statements and questions the night of the shooting.   IMO, he might still be a little in shock or dazed from the altercation.   In his efforts to remember, he might be picking up some of her suggestions/questions. 

I know there are  transcripts out there for both Singleton and Serino and I will look for it but since The Crash, my computer can't access all of the links that I had saved.  ((Tried looking but computer froze up.  Frustrated.))

I have been in the hot seat for an interrogation.  It is not pleasant.  It is not a chat though the police will try to befriend you to put you at ease.  They are just so darned nice that you want to help them understand.  Then a gentle push does come to hard shove... and unlike Zimmerman, who has no reason to think that they didn't believe him and felt that he was justified, I knew better after about 20 minutes and asked for my lawyer.

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2012, 03:10:19 PM
When I first watched the re-enactment and VSA, I erroneously thought GZ was saying he was talking to the dispatcher as TM passed him at the clubhouse. In watching both again, I think what he actually said is consistent with or at least doesn’t contradict his written statement, and 2 accounts to Singleton. (Although, I’m still not sure about the underlined parts. Is he perhaps recalling the which way/direction questions after TM passed his car near the cut-through, and plugging them in here?).

VSA: So I drove past him and I went to the clubhouse. I called the non-emergency line. As I was on the phone with the non-emergency line, he walked past my car, and I lost visual contact of him. [How much time elapsed? “Gets through” to dispatcher] The operator asked me if I could get to somewhere where I could see or at least give him a direction of where he was headed. I said yes, so I pulled out [gestures with hand indicating turn right, down Twin Trees] and I drove adjacent to the clubhouse. . . . When I was at the clubhouse, I gave them the clubhouse address.

Re-Enactment: I drove past him and I went to the clubhouse. [Driver/Investigator: He caught up to you up here?] Yes, I called the non-emergency line and when I got through -- [seemingly reminding driver where to stop, GZ gestures with hand and says:] I parked at the clubhouse -- and they asked me where I was, and I told them the clubhouse and I think I gave them the address to the clubhouse. [Driver pulls into spot at clubhouse]. This is where I just stopped to call, to call, and then he walked past me. And he kept looking at my car. And still looking around at the houses and stuff. [How much time elapsed? “Gets through” to dispatcher] So then dispatcher said where did he go, what direction did he go in, and I said I don't know. I lost -- cause he cut down here and made a right, I guess it's Twin Trees Lane, he made a right in there -- and they said what direction did he go in and I said I don't know, I can't see him. And they said can you get to somewhere you can see him, and I said yeah I can. So I backed out. [Driver backs out, turns right on TTL, goes left around bend].

Regarding GZ’s cell phone records, I agree these should help a lot to clarify the timeline. If GZ was on hold for a few minutes, then TM would’ve had time to pass GZ while on hold at the clubhouse and walk ahead to the cut-through before GZ got there.


I still think he was parked during the entire call. He's describing things that happenrd before he actually dialed the NEN and combining them with things happening right there and then.  The underlined parts in your post are embellishments GZ makes to justify why he followed and why he got out of his car. Neither action is of course illegal.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 18, 2012, 03:31:50 PM

I still think he was parked during the entire call. He's describing things that happenrd before he actually dialed the NEN and combining them with things happening right there and then.  The underlined parts in your post are embellishments GZ makes to justify why he followed and why he got out of his car. Neither action is of course illegal.

If he was parked the whole time, why does he repeatedly say he was "by the clubhouse" when played the recording up to the "he's near the clubhouse now?/yeah, now he's coming at me" section, and why does he say during the VSA and during the "re-enactment" that he was directed via telephone to move to where he could see the teen, move away from the clubhouse parking lot?  Are these false memories and if so why are they occurring?

And if he was parked the whole time by the cut thru, how and when does TM pass him the first time?  And why does Dee Dee say he waited by the mail shed?  And why does TM double back, circle his car but then run 30 seconds later? 

And how is any of that more likely than what seems to happen when you mentally place GZ at the spot he marked on a map, at the first bend in TTL where he could observe the mailboxes?  Because then he is indeed "by the clubhouse" when TM approached him, he just didn't do so in an odd doubling back then running away fashion.  IMO he did it in a "walking home then running when followed by a car way."  (were GZ's headlights on or off?  We don't know.)  And why does GZ never seem to offer seeing TM run unless he is prompted to by investigators?    Had he forgotten that part?  He admits "following" with qualifications but never the running part.  Why would he do that?  Pills?  Memory loss?  Or some other reason?  Without the recording to NE, it's likely that SPD would never have known TM ran away, would they? 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 18, 2012, 04:11:49 PM
Actually, I think we should look to some of Doris Singleton's statements and questions the night of the shooting.   IMO, he might still be a little in shock or dazed from the altercation.   In his efforts to remember, he might be picking up some of her suggestions/questions. 

I know there are  transcripts out there for both Singleton and Serino and I will look for it but since The Crash, my computer can't access all of the links that I had saved.  ((Tried looking but computer froze up.  Frustrated.))

I have been in the hot seat for an interrogation.  It is not pleasant.  It is not a chat though the police will try to befriend you to put you at ease.  They are just so darned nice that you want to help them understand.  Then a gentle push does come to hard shove... and unlike Zimmerman, who has no reason to think that they didn't believe him and felt that he was justified, I knew better after about 20 minutes and asked for my lawyer.


I agree that DS should not have prompted GZ so many times and so many ways.  She's narco, not homicide and judging by her appearance not a 30 year veteran either. 

The "purpose" IMO of the voice stress test was not to test the stress in GZ's voice.  It was to get GZ to tell the story all over again from the start in his own words to someone who seemed less interested.  (any fool knows those tests are worthless in a courtroom and prove little or nothing.  It wasn't even a real polygraph test) It's possible Serino arrived at the cop shop by then and reviewed some of DS's interview and decided they needed a fresh start, so to speak. 

But I don't think she put false memories into GZ's head.  But she did start to point out potential inconsistencies and prompt GZ to start "filling in the blanks" when and where needed to make a more coherent story.  Case in point is that the first time GZ tells the story, he passed TM by FT's house and then the next thng you know GZ has "pulled over" and TM is doubling back/circling.  He's left out the events at the clubhouse for whatever reason and Singleton leads him back through it but only after she's gone and fetched a map. 

Here is the first telling:

Quote

GZ: Um, and this time, I was leaving to go to the grocery store and like I said, I saw him, um, walking in the neighborhood - the same, in front of the same house that I had called the police before to come to because this guy leaves his doors unlocked and stuff. And he was walking leisurely and looking at the houses and, um, so I just pulled my car to the side and I called the non-emergency line and, um…
DS: Were you, were you armed at this point?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: You were already armed?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay.
GZ: And, um, I called the non-emergency line and I just reported that there was a suspicious person in the neighborhood. Um, the dispatcher or whoever answered the phone asked me where they went, and I said I wasn’t sure because I lost visual of him when he went in between houses and, ah, he said well can you tell me what direction he went and I said not really. Um, and then all of a sudden I see him circling my car and…and then he goes back into the darkness. So…
DS: Just a minute, you’re out, you pull out of your house, and you’re heading down the road as you’re looking at him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: You’re on the phone and he dips between 2 houses, is that what you mean?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: So you lose sight of him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am. And then he comes back out and circles my car. While I’m on the phone with the police.
DS: Okay, is he saying anything to you?
GZ: I couldn’t hear him, my windows were up.
DS: Okay
GZ: As soon as I saw him coming up I rolled up my windows and I stayed on the phone with dispatch.
DS: Okay. He… your car was running?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: The lights were on?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay, so he knew somebody was in this car?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Is he walking completely around the car?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay.
GZ: Um, and dispatch asked me where he went. I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on. I…
DS: So you’d come off your street and gotten onto another street?
GZ: Yes ma’am.
DS: At some point.
GZ: Yes ma’am. It goes in, cuts through the middle of my neighborhood. I didn’t know the names of the street. Um, or where he went, so I got out of my car to look for the street sign and to see if I could see where he cut through so I could tell the police.
DS: So after he circled your car he disappeared again?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.


So IMO the "dispatch told me to get another visual so i moved" idea comes here, but it's told as a means to explain him getting out of his car, not moving from the clubhouse parking lot.  By the time of the video "reenactment" this "i was directed to move to get a visual" memory has to occur twice. 

This is the nature of his confusion, and a potential source point, IMO.  But the activity itself is just a false narrative from the get-go, IMO.  GZ wants an excuse for getting out of his car besides the fact that the teen just ran to get away from him.  That paints him as more the aggressor in the general sense, so he turns it around on TM instead, and leaves out the running away part. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: AJ on July 18, 2012, 10:21:04 PM
Cited article is completely off-topic, and refers to IMPLANTED false memories.  Not ones self-genereated that fit a poorly executed alibi for a crime.

<wall of text ignored>

You either can't read, or completely skipped over the text below the url in my post. I was not using that source to say "this is exactly what happened to George."

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: TalkLeft on July 18, 2012, 11:53:37 PM
I've deleted some of the insults and one absurdly long post by Willis quoting almost the entire transcript of Singleton's interview. Willis, you have made this argument numerous times. It's chattering to keep doing it and it's objectionable to say that readers who don't agree with you have something wrong with them.

You are a commenter here, with opinions just like every other commenter. Your bias against Zimmerman is what makes so many people react negatively to your comments. I understand you feel frustrated but it's not because you aren't getting your point of view across. It's because your bias makes people reject what you write even before finishing reading it.

I don't mean to pick on you. And I've deleted many comments mocking you. But I think you bring it on yourself by repeatedly pointing out minor inconsistencies, insisting they add up to Zmmerman lying.  As well as by relying on your own charts and calculations as evidence for your point of view.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 19, 2012, 06:53:54 AM
Your bias against Zimmerman is what makes so many people react negatively to your comments.
OK, wait a minute. I think people can use their own minds to look at the evidence, and, based on their own knowledge and experiences, arrive at a different opinion of how the evidence fits together without being accused of being 'biased against Zimmerman'.

I don't assume that any GZ supporter is 'biased against Martin', I assume he has arrived at an obviously wrong a different opinion based on the evidence. I'd appreciate the same consideration in return.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 19, 2012, 07:17:27 AM
Willis seems to be able to fight his/her own battles. Let the comments stand?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2012, 07:22:15 AM
Willis seems to be able to fight his/her own battles. Let the comments stand?

If the hostess were to allow the comments to stand, how would she choose? Would it be all of them? Just the (IMO crazy) stuff Willis says? The milder posts mocking Willis in return?

If she leaves them she runs the risk of the place turning into a junior high cafeteria after someone screams food fight.

I know, I've seen me do it.
 8)


Much better to maintain fairly tight order from the start. I have another place to go to when I feel like flinging the oatmeal against the wall.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 19, 2012, 08:35:11 AM
If he was parked the whole time, why does he repeatedly say he was "by the clubhouse" when played the recording up to the "he's near the clubhouse now?/yeah, now he's coming at me" section, and why does he say during the VSA and during the "re-enactment" that he was directed via telephone to move to where he could see the teen, move away from the clubhouse parking lot?  Are these false memories and if so why are they occurring?

And if he was parked the whole time by the cut thru, how and when does TM pass him the first time?  And why does Dee Dee say he waited by the mail shed?  And why does TM double back, circle his car but then run 30 seconds later? 


You make a point here that many seem to accept, but I have questions about since Z did his walk thru.  During the NEN call, he is asked by the dispatcher if TM is near the clubhouse now and Z responds affirmatively.  I think people are mistakenly coming to the conclusion that Z is parked near the T and TM is coming at him from the direction of the clubhouse implying that Z had passed him in his vehicle.  I don't think this is the case and here are the points I would make.

Right before Z says "yeah, now he's coming towards me", the dispatcher had actually asked him several things "Thats the clubhouse?  Do you know what the ... Is he near the clubhouse now?".  The exchange right before these questions were asked, the dispatcher was repeating the address Z gave asking if it was 1111 or 111 and Z said thats the clubhouse.  Given the context of the conversation and multiple questions raised prior to the "yeah", I don't think its safe to assume that Z meant that TM was at the clubhouse and walking towards the T where he was parked.  I think his response, given his other statements is that "yeah", we are near the clubhouse (he can see it from where he's parked and its the address I just gave you) and now this kid is coming towards me.  I don't think he's saying on the call that TM is at the clubhouse and is walking away from the clubhouse towards me.

Before Z's walk thru was released, I always had the impression above, that Z had driven past the clubhouse then saw TM around the mailboxes and drove past him, then parked near the T to observe him, which would mean that this exchange with the dispatcher matched the idea that TM was closer to the clubhouse and walking towards his vehicle.  I think with the description in the walk thru, this idea is incorrect.  TM walks past him as he's parked at the clubhouse and Z loses sight of him.  Z mentions the dispatcher telling him to get where he can see him, but I think this happens before or right at the beginning of his connection with the dispatcher and the thought is one thats in his mind, not one that is spoken by the dispatcher.  Z backs out and makes his turn onto TTL driving slowly, looking for where TM is.  I don't think it makes sense that he would knowingly drive past him if he were trying to keep an eye on him, because if he drove past, TM could take off running the other way and he'd probably never see him again.  IF you are trying to keep an eye on someone, you stay behind them and continue moving the same direction they are.  As he's driving slowly, he eventually spots TM out in front of him and I think this is the point that Z describes in his walk thru that TM was at the T (I'm assuming he had run to get there and this is one of the running events Dee Dee describes).  Its TM coming back from the T where Z describes TM coming towards his vehicle and to check him out.

I think given what is in the NEN call, this is the most logical scenario of how Z moved from the clubhouse to TTL, while also fitting the description of what he saw.  I think analysis of the background sounds on the NEN call fit more with him moving away from the clubhouse at the very start of that call and all the descriptions of TM's actions that follow are after he was already on TTL with TM out in front of him. 

The one caveat to this would be which direction Z's vehicle was facing as it was parked on TTL.  In the scenario I describe his car would have to be facing towards the T, not towards the clubhouse.  Is it a known fact which direction the car was facing that night?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: dragon ash on July 19, 2012, 09:51:30 AM
I think given what is in the NEN call, this is the most logical scenario of how Z moved from the clubhouse to TTL, while also fitting the description of what he saw.  I think analysis of the background sounds on the NEN call fit more with him moving away from the clubhouse at the very start of that call and all the descriptions of TM's actions that follow are after he was already on TTL with TM out in front of him. 

The one caveat to this would be which direction Z's vehicle was facing as it was parked on TTL.  In the scenario I describe his car would have to be facing towards the T, not towards the clubhouse.  Is it a known fact which direction the car was facing that night?
Yes - I've posted this before, but this is the most logical scenario, at least in the sense that it more clearly matches up with the NEN call.

Only problem is, it doesn't match George's multiple statements, both in the video re-enactment and in the 29 Feb interviews with detectives, that Martin walked past him while he was parked -at the Clubhouse-, and that he could see Martin turn right on to TTL, and that the next time he saw Martin was when he was parked at on TTL with Martin half-way up to the cut-through.

Is it possible George is lying about this because he thought it'd sound 'bad' if he was following Martin in his car? Maybe he thought (wrongly) that it would be illegal or make him responsible for what happened afterwards?

George's car was moved before anyone took photos of it, etc. I don't recall seeing any statements in discovery about which way the truck was parked, but I believe (not 100% sure) that George has noted that the headlights were somewhat lighting up the cut-through, so I've always assumed the truck was facing towards the cut-through, not towards the clubhouse.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: unitron on July 19, 2012, 05:30:12 PM
It's known which way Zimmerman says his truck was facing (east, toward the "T"), but so far we have no independent corroboration of that.

Someone who spent a lot of time trying to decipher what the various lights in the various clubhouse videos were has a theory that involves several U-turns as Zimmerman drives back and forth past the clubhouse without stopping there and finally makes a U-turn on Twin Trees to wind up facing west toward the clubhouse.

I have yet to see any indication that the prosecution has done any serious analysis of the various clubhouse videos or that they intend to introduce any of them as evidence of anything in particular.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 19, 2012, 05:52:50 PM
Facing east seems to match up well if you combine his account in the walk-thru and the NEN call assuming he leaves the clubhouse right around the time the call connects.  He never mentions being parked at the clubhouse on the NEN, so I think that makes the most sense.

I'm familiar with the theory done of the lighting seen in the various clubhouse videos.  I can't say what they suggest is impossible, but I found it to be inconclusive.  I doubt any theory gets put forth from the prosecution based on those videos.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 19, 2012, 06:12:23 PM
It's known which way Zimmerman says his truck was facing (east, toward the "T"), but so far we have no independent corroboration of that.

Someone who spent a lot of time trying to decipher what the various lights in the various clubhouse videos were has a theory that involves several U-turns as Zimmerman drives back and forth past the clubhouse without stopping there and finally makes a U-turn on Twin Trees to wind up facing west toward the clubhouse.

I have yet to see any indication that the prosecution has done any serious analysis of the various clubhouse videos or that they intend to introduce any of them as evidence of anything in particular.

Perhaps the state , having  weak case, decided to investigate what information/ theories could be derived from the blogosphere.The problem with this approach of course the the unmanageable volume of available speculation.

 Is it possible that the state intended the clubhouse video as a filtering device to limit the search to bloggers with certain analytic capabilities.If at some point in the proceeding the state could call for bloggers speculation:

On the Application to consider your fantasies as a viable theory SOF 24R CT rev2

Q1. How long have you studied the clubhouse tapes?
    Any answer over 30 seconds and under 5 hours would be considered a pass with the petitioner exhibiting inquisitiveness  but not obsession.

Q2. How long have you discussed the case based on your clubhouse tape observations?
  Any answer over 45 seconds would immediately disqualify that particular authors thesis - however the prosecution might try to get them assigned to the jury pool.





Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: unitron on July 19, 2012, 06:41:56 PM
Facing east seems to match up well if you combine his account in the walk-thru and the NEN call assuming he leaves the clubhouse right around the time the call connects.  He never mentions being parked at the clubhouse on the NEN, so I think that makes the most sense.

I'm familiar with the theory done of the lighting seen in the various clubhouse videos.  I can't say what they suggest is impossible, but I found it to be inconclusive.  I doubt any theory gets put forth from the prosecution based on those videos.

Like I said, I haven't seen any indication that the prosecution intends to do anything with the clubhouse videos.

Of course, the prosecution isn't trying to find out what actually happened, they're trying to get a conviction, and the defense isn't trying to find out what really happened, they're trying to get a dismissal, or, failing that, an acquittal.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: willisnewton on July 21, 2012, 07:19:29 PM
This forum needs a moderator to combat bias in any form.  And jearalyn has put in the work and claims the right and that's fine by me. 

But IMO no one can make GZ's statements jibe with either the idea that he reached a human (Sean the dispatcher) while at the clubhouse parking lot, or when he was already all the way down TTL parked by the cut thru.  He's contradicted himself by making competing claims of where he was when TM passed him, hand in waistband, and therefor whatever version you choose to believe comes with a contradictory account given to SPD.    Also IMO NEITHER position can be reliably aligned with the NE call recording. 

leftwig tries to suggest that he moved during the call, and that's all fine and good but he doesn't say when, exactly.  I'd like to know if he means before or after GZ says "Now he's staring at me," some 48 seconds into the call.  Because it takes some time to get from the clubhouse parking lot to the cut thru parking position GZ claims - 30 seconds or so in the re-eneactment, and maybe GZ could do it faster but at any rate backing up from "now he's staring at me" point puts the move in the first sentences of the call, before Sean even gets to ask his very first question, "is he white, black or hispanic?"

And of course this idea of a move at that time means GZ is wrong/confused when he repeatedly tells investigators he is "by the clubhouse" when he's finally played the recording, and means GZ meant "no" when he said "yeah" when asked on the evening "is he near the clubhouse now?/yeah now he's coming towards me."  George hasn't started giving driving directions yet, and isn't seemingly confused or distracted as far as I can tell.  He's just started his call and is giving the basics as asked.  And he certainly was never directed to move where he could see the teen in the first 20-30 seconds of the call. 

I've been criticized and had posts deleted for length, but unless I provide supporting text people continue to rely on generalized memory and incomplete arguments to continue thinking in a biased manner, IMO.
Quote

Zimmerman:
We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.
This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]
NE dispatcher:
OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman:
He looks black.
NE dispatcher:
Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]
NE dispatcher:
He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.
Zimmerman:
Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]
NE dispatcher:
OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?
Zimmerman:
That’s the clubhouse.
NE dispatcher:
He’s near the clubhouse now?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.
And he’s a black male.[1:03]
This thread is about what SPD's investigation established.  I contend IMO they found the pattern of false statements GZ employed to obscure and omit the way he traveled from the clubhouse area to the cut thru area.  If people don't agree that's fine, but don't pretend you have a more coherent theory posited here just yet, because as a practical matter I've not seen it. 

George may not remember the name of Twin Trees Lane but he's not lost, and he marked a position on the map (and quickly crossed it out when he comes to the next section of the story) that IMO resolves contradictions and inconsistencies and establishes the pattern of his lies - when in doubt, leave it out.  He seems quite afraid of admitting the concept of being in a moving car behind the teen where both are in motion.  AFAIK there is nothing specifically wrong with his doing it, it's not a crime in and of itself but he's jeopardized his credibility for minimal gain, another pattern I see him doing. 

If you were shown a map of your own neighborhood, could you tell the difference between the corner and the middle of a street?  IMO George isn't confused or lost, he's simply pushing a false narrative.  Perhaps it's his only lie, but there it is. 
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 21, 2012, 07:50:36 PM
You argument falls on death ears because you postulate complex solutions to a simple problem.

In order to conclude that GZ was purposely attempting to mislead one must believe that he
a.  Thought that the issues he was misstating would be detrimental to him. ( Why else bother)
b.  Would have the time to and wit to construct these fabrications.

On the other hand,
to postulate Zimmerman  attempted to construct events to the best of his ability we would need to believe that he
c. Is human.
d. Is not adept at remembering the timing and sequence of events.

Unless you can prove A&B through some witness with overriding insight into GZ's mind I'm going with the impressions I have obtained via hours of direct observation of GZ.

That would be C & D

When I see statements like

Quote
I contend IMO they found the pattern of false statements GZ employed to obscure and omit the way he traveled from the clubhouse area to the cut thru area.

I just ignore the rest of the post.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: TalkLeft on July 21, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Willis, there was no "pattern of false statements."
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 23, 2012, 08:55:40 AM
And Martin had multiple chances to confront George...but ran away?

ensuring Martin had enough time to close the distance and complete the devastating sucker-punch, which was only strong enough to cause George to stumble forward?

I believe the testimony was backwards.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: leftwig on July 23, 2012, 09:03:35 AM
And Martin had multiple chances to confront George...but ran away?

Was Martin's master plan to entice George out of his car by running away, certain in the knowledge that George would chase after him and that Martin would be able to stay out of sight long enough to sneak up behind George and to make sure the ambush succeeded he'd talk to George, giving George time to turn around, but no worry because Martin knew George would then look down for his phone, ensuring Martin had enough time to close the distance and complete the devastating sucker-punch, which was only strong enough to cause George to stumble forward?

I have no idea what Martins plan was, but clearly his plan wasn't to run home and avoid a confrontation as he had lost George and was right by his house.  I doubt TM really planned anything as he walked back towards the T, but that wasn't the point being addressed.  The theory was put forth that George was being confrontational that night, yet it seems like his actions were anything but that.  I've yet to see any evidence that Z confronted TM.
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 23, 2012, 09:06:48 AM
I have no idea what Martins plan was, but clearly his plan wasn't to run home and avoid a confrontation as he had lost George and was right by his house.  I doubt TM really planned anything as he walked back towards the T, but that wasn't the point being addressed.  The theory was put forth that George was being confrontational that night, yet it seems like his actions were anything but that.  I've yet to see any evidence that Z confronted TM.

Clearly, if his plan was to run home and avoid confrontation, he'd have...you know, run home and avoided confrontation, as you say--he was right by the house.

Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 23, 2012, 10:20:13 AM
You mean besides George's statement that he carried the gun with him at all times except at work, and the fact that he was the head of the Neighborhood Watch? You mean besides that evidence?

What part of 'sh*t he's running (sound of George exiting car & running after...sorry, 'going in the same direction' as Martin' do you disagree with?

Suppose George had caught up with Martin near the T. What do you think George planned on doing?

Suppose? Really? Given that the operator had said to keep an eye on him and he said "okay", it's reasonable to infer he planned to do nothing other than keep an eye on him.

I mean hell...suppose George had caught up to Martin near the T. What do you think Martin planned on doing? Seriously--he could've just ducked into the back door of Brandi' place. He didn't. What did he plan?
Title: Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
Post by: TalkLeft on July 23, 2012, 01:32:12 PM
this thread has gone far off topic and into discussions of irrelevant and prejudicial topics. It's being locked. I will further clean it later when I have time.