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State v. George Zimmerman (Pre-Trial) => Witness Discussion => Topic started by: Screamin Jay on July 07, 2012, 11:17:11 AM

Title: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: Screamin Jay on July 07, 2012, 11:17:11 AM
Witness 11
First 911 caller. HOA Board member. Married to witness 20. Lives at 1211 TTL which is just southwest of the sidewalk "T". Her neighbors to the south are witnesses 6 and 17.
Watching TV with husband. Two or more men outside talking loud. Three back and forth yells. Couldn't make out any words at first.
Turns TV down. Talking stops. Hears scuffling across grass and pavement from left to right.
Just after the moving scuffle there are yells with no words at first.
7:16:11 she calls 911 right away because of recent problems in the neighborhood.
As she is dialing, the yells change into calls for "Help". These are caught on the recording of her call. Help, Help, Help about 15 times. The scared helps were not muffled.
Heard John next door say he would call 911.
Goes into the kitchen.
7:16:56 hears a shot.
Goes upstairs to hide.
-------------------------------------
This witness supports George's claim that his encounter with Trayvon started near the "T". She intimates that and because she is the first one to connect with 911 it would seem like it started closest to her house. The grass she mentions is likely part of her back yard. Her interview is consistent with the call and her husband's interview. They say The Retreat will have to increase it's security.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 07, 2012, 07:37:49 PM
Witness 11
First 911 caller. HOA Board member. Married to witness 20. Lives at 1211 TTL which is just southwest of the sidewalk "T". Her neighbors to the south are witnesses 6 and 17.
Watching TV with husband. Two or more men outside talking loud. Three back and forth yells. Couldn't make out any words at first.
Turns TV down. Talking stops. Hears scuffling across grass and pavement from left to right.
Just after the moving scuffle there are yells with no words at first.
7:16:11 she calls 911 right away because of recent problems in the neighborhood.
As she is dialing, the yells change into calls for "Help". These are caught on the recording of her call. Help, Help, Help about 15 times. The scared helps were not muffled.
Heard John next door say he would call 911.
Goes into the kitchen.
7:16:56 hears a shot.
Goes upstairs to hide.
-------------------------------------
This witness supports George's claim that his encounter with Trayvon started near the "T". She intimates that and because she is the first one to connect with 911 it would seem like it started closest to her house. The grass she mentions is likely part of her back yard. Her interview is consistent with the call and her husband's interview. They say The Retreat will have to increase it's security.

Since W11 is the first call into 911, why does the initial report list the Cutcher/Mora residence the one the police responded to?  In both of their statements they didn't see or hear much until after the shot and then Mora went outside.   The 1211 Twin Trees would be closer to respond to than the 2831 RVC address unless the unit was already in the complex trying to follow GW's initial directions of "turn left when you enter...etc"  IMO.
Title: Responding to 2821 RVC
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 07, 2012, 09:37:39 PM
After looking at the reports again, I think it's because W-11 only reported hearing cries for help, while Cutcher reported seeing someone lying on the ground.

W-18 also reported seeing Martin on the ground. I have been thinking Cutcher's was the last call, but I could be wrong.

The body was actually closer to W-11's home than Cutcher's, but the police had no way of knowing that.



Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: tchoupi on August 08, 2012, 01:02:00 PM
Since W11 is the first call into 911, why does the initial report list the Cutcher/Mora residence the one the police responded to?  In both of their statements they didn't see or hear much until after the shot and then Mora went outside.   The 1211 Twin Trees would be closer to respond to than the 2831 RVC address unless the unit was already in the complex trying to follow GW's initial directions of "turn left when you enter...etc"  IMO.

Officer responded first to the NEN call.  As he arrived at complex (7:17:11pm) he learns about the shooting and then responds first to Witness #3 (1221 TTL) who is the 2nd caller (she also called before the gunshot).  While on the phone, Wit #3 sees T. Smith and tells dispatcher (7:17:41pm) that he should be at her house's   front because the gunshot was at her back porch.  Police apparently has no clue on the floorplan in the complex.  So, they decide to respond to another call, that of Wit #19 (2921 RVC) who called at 7:17:15pm.  T. Smith never responded to Mary's (Wit #5 - 2831 RVC).  Finally, T. Smith is seen by Wit #18 (Teacher) walking on the walkway from RVC  at 7:19:28pm roughly 2.5min after the gunshot. 
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 08, 2012, 04:28:34 PM
Officer responded first to the NEN call.  As he arrived at complex (7:17:11pm) he learns about the shooting and then responds first to Witness #3 (1221 TTL) who is the 2nd caller (she also called before the gunshot).  While on the phone, Wit #3 sees T. Smith and tells dispatcher (7:17:41pm) that he should be at her house's   front because the gunshot was at her back porch.  Police apparently has no clue on the floorplan in the complex.  So, they decide to respond to another call, that of Wit #19 (2921 RVC) who called at 7:17:15pm.  T. Smith never responded to Mary's (Wit #5 - 2831 RVC).  Finally, T. Smith is seen by Wit #18 (Teacher) walking on the walkway from RVC  at 7:19:28pm roughly 2.5min after the gunshot.

I am not sure your time is correct.  It seems to me that he was there approx 20+ seconds after the shot.  I would double check but I am not at my computer at home.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: unitron on August 08, 2012, 04:35:35 PM
I am not sure your time is correct.  It seems to me that he was there approx 20+ seconds after the shot.  I would double check but I am not at my computer at home.

He may have gotten to the front gate 20 seconds after 7:16:56 PM, but by the time he finally drove around to the address he was finally given on the eastern leg of RVC, it was later enough for someone to come out and talk ammo with Zimmerman and get the picture of the back of his head.

I wonder if the 911 operator actually got an ambulance started heading that way or if it wasn't until the police arrived that they called for one?
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 08, 2012, 04:39:20 PM
He may have gotten to the front gate 20 seconds after 7:16:56 PM, but by the time he finally drove around to the address he was finally given on the eastern leg of RVC, it was later enough for someone to come out and talk ammo with Zimmerman and get the picture of the back of his head.

I wonder if the 911 operator actually got an ambulance started heading that way or if it wasn't until the police arrived that they called for one?

I am pretty sure LE has to secure a scene before the Fire Truck and EMS can arrive.  I think they have to hold back until that time, even if it is just a block away.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: unitron on August 08, 2012, 05:01:11 PM
I am pretty sure LE has to secure a scene before the Fire Truck and EMS can arrive.  I think they have to hold back until that time, even if it is just a block away.

Secure the scene as in make sure all of the shooters are accounted for, yeah.

Secure the scene as in get everything tagged and bagged while the victim bleeds out, I certainly hope not.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: TalkLeft on August 08, 2012, 05:25:55 PM
Comment by Tchoupi stating opinion as fact deleted.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 08, 2012, 08:59:59 PM
Secure the scene as in make sure all of the shooters are accounted for, yeah.

Secure the scene as in get everything tagged and bagged while the victim bleeds out, I certainly hope not.

Of course it is until danger has passed.  I answered your question to the best of my ability and you get snide. 

Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: unitron on August 08, 2012, 11:38:28 PM
Of course it is until danger has passed.  I answered your question to the best of my ability and you get snide.

As soon as Smith had Zimmerman cuffed they could have let in EMS to work on Martin, if they'd already been there.

I wasn't wondering how soon they were allowed on the scene, I was wondering how early they were called to respond to the scene.

Two different things.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: TalkLeft on August 09, 2012, 02:12:28 PM
Please stick to Witness 11 here. Thanks.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 09, 2012, 06:33:58 PM
The question of why the police responded to a different address, is about W-11 in a figure-ground sort of way. But I'll be happy to take it somewhere else when I figure out where.

Jeralyn, have you heard unredacted versions of all the 911 calls? I'm still confused about matching the witnesses and addresses. I'm also thinking Cutcher might have told the dispatcher that Martin was lying in front of a different unit than her own, although not the correct one.

Officer Smith reported that he responded to 2821 RVC, after getting a report 'that there was a subject laying in the grass in between the residences of 1231 Twin Trees Ln and 2821 Retreat View Cir.'

On this map, (http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/witnessmap700.jpg) it looks like 2811 is unmarked, 2821 is W-19, and 2831 is Mora and Cutcher (W-5&16).

W-19 didn't report seeing anyone lying on the ground. I listened to her call again to make sure.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: FromBelow on September 29, 2012, 10:36:58 AM
I just noticed that witness 11 says that an officer took a picture of Zimmerman and showed it to her at the scene. Based on the picture she says:

"At first we couldn't even recognize him"
"looked like his nose was broken"
"his lip was all bloody"
"looked completely out of it"

Where's this picture? I don't recall seeing it in the evidence but could have missed it.

Starts ~4:34:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk3RJZa1nLc

Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: DebFrmHell on September 29, 2012, 10:39:55 AM
I just noticed that witness 11 says that an officer took a picture of Zimmerman and showed it to her at the scene. Based on the picture she says:

"At first we couldn't even recognize him"
"looked like his nose was broken"
"his lip was all bloody"
"looked completely out of it"

Where's this picture? I don't recall seeing it in the evidence but could have missed it.

Starts ~4:34:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk3RJZa1nLc

Could it be the one he took with his phone?
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: FromBelow on September 29, 2012, 10:46:23 AM
Could it be the one he took with his phone?

I suppose it could be this one. But it's such crappy quality (b/w photocopy) we can't see much. I'm just wondering if there is another one.

http://media2.newsnet5.com//photo/2012/05/17/Zimmerman_bloody_black_and_white_20120517172839_640_480.JPG
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: FromBelow on September 29, 2012, 10:49:37 AM
Speaking of crappy photos, don't we ever get to see the higher quality images? Those should be part of discovery and released to public I think.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: DebFrmHell on September 29, 2012, 11:59:41 AM
I suppose it could be this one. But it's such crappy quality (b/w photocopy) we can't see much. I'm just wondering if there is another one.

http://media2.newsnet5.com//photo/2012/05/17/Zimmerman_bloody_black_and_white_20120517172839_640_480.JPG

I think he showed her directly from the phone.  It would be a normal picture then. 

After the fax we got poo, IMO.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: unitron on September 29, 2012, 08:59:01 PM
I think he showed her directly from the phone.  It would be a normal picture then. 

After the fax we got poo, IMO.

Based on the quality it looks like we got a Xerox of a fax of a low-res screen grab.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: DebFrmHell on September 29, 2012, 09:28:56 PM
Based on the quality it looks like we got a Xerox of a fax of a low-res screen grab.

I hope that MOM got a good shot.  I would think it is on one of the CDs that were submitted to him.
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: RickyJim on November 05, 2012, 12:43:57 PM
Near the end of her audio interview with Serino and Singleton, Witness 11 pointed to a map (I guess) to explain where she first heard the voices and the aftermath.  She kept on saying here, here, here.  Did this map with markings to where Witness 11 pointed ever make it into evidence? 
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: Redbrow on November 05, 2012, 01:17:33 PM
Near the end of her audio interview with Serino and Singleton, Witness 11 pointed to a map (I guess) to explain where she first heard the voices and the aftermath.  She kept on saying here, here, here.  Did this map with markings to where Witness 11 pointed ever make it into evidence?

Good point. These investigators should be aware they are recording audio only and describe exactly where on the map the witness is pointing to. It is 2012, why aren't they using video instead of just audio for something as crucial as witness statements?
Title: Re: Witness 11 (First 911 Caller with Gunshot and Help Cries)
Post by: RickyJim on November 05, 2012, 03:45:42 PM
Good point. These investigators should be aware they are recording audio only and describe exactly where on the map the witness is pointing to. It is 2012, why aren't they using video instead of just audio for something as crucial as witness statements?

Actually in this case, the issue is of serious importance.  Knowing where Witness 11 lived, what she said seems to indicate the voices began on the north side of her house then progressed around the T past her house to Witness 6's lawn.  This seems to corroborate Zimmerman's account that he was returning from RVC to TTL when attacked.  I assume the defense would need Witness 11 to actually testify in court to be able to argue this.  It certainly would seem to refute the "Zimmerman chased and caught Martin" line the prosecution has not indicated, so far, they are abandoning.  IMHO, the NEN call, Witness 11's 911 call, this tape with SPD and the 45 minute FDLE one with Witness 6 are enough for a good lawyer to exonerate Zimmerman.