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State v. George Zimmerman (Pre-Trial) => Evidence Discussion => Topic started by: JW on July 11, 2012, 11:09:51 AM

Title: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: JW on July 11, 2012, 11:09:51 AM


It is just my opinion but I think it is George. After hearing his voice and even the comparison yells made by police his voice sounds close enough to the yells.

 Opinions?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 11, 2012, 11:34:00 AM
I don't see how it can be George. The screams on the 911 call are pure, animal-like shrieks of terror. George states that he didn't know right away that his shot had hit Martin...and yet the screams STOP INSTANTLY with the gunshot.

After the gunshot, George speaks to two witnesses and seems fairly....lucid, if short of breath. He says 'don't worry about calling 911, I called 'em (he hadn't, btw)', and he calmly responds to the other witness who asks what kind of gun he used to shoot the kid lying face down in front of him.

Seems like it'd be hard to go from 'pure, unfiltered terror' to calm and lucid (if a bit short of breath) that quickly if he had really been in a 'sh*t I'm going to die' experience.

There is one witness who says, naturally, that he'd expect the person on the -bottom- to be screaming for help. I think it's at least as natural to think that the kid who's scared of getting shot would also be screaming.

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 11, 2012, 11:38:52 AM
Actually, if it is something that the FBI couldn't determine, this thread calls for nothing but speculation.  Nothing can be based on evidence, IMO.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: leftwig on July 11, 2012, 11:42:42 AM
I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been a more discussed/debated point.  Its quite obvious the prosecution is relying on being able to show that its TM screaming as its one of the only facts (someone was screaming for help and they have a witness saying it was TM) that they mention in their affidavit for probable cause. 

Both families are mostly going to cancel themselves out, though I imagine Serino will be called to testify that Tracy initially said it was not his son, so if anything, the family's statements appear to balance in Z's favor. 

The FBI experts said the recording is too poor, though there are other voice experts who say they can tell who isn't screaming.  The prosecution is going to fight like heck to get those experts in, but they have to overcome their own experts that say the audio isn't good enough and the voice is too stressed to try and make a determination.  There of course would also be the issue of trying to compare a calm speaking voice inside a car with a screaming voice of desperation outside from far away.  Also, if the screaming voice was Z's, he'd have a broken nose at this point which would also alter his voice.  I'd be quite surprised if any expert testimony gets in saying it wasn't Z and I think its most likely the experts are going to say we can't tell from the 911 call.

The witness testimony is kinda mixed as many indicate the screams sound like that of a young boy.  Of course there wasn't a young boy involved in the conflict, so I'm not sure how the judge/jury would see that.  The defense would like to have a recent recording of TM's voice.  IT doesn't seem clear if one exists.  His photos would obviously indicate that he has hit and gone through puberty, but that can't show how deep his voice is, other than showing he's not boy like.  W6 appears to be the best witness to identify the voice having Martin on top and yelling from what he believes to be from the guy on the bottom.  Austin could help as well as he see's the man in red on the ground and he yelled for help, but Austin's mom seems to have some reservations about her sons testimony, so we don't know what he will end up testifying to. 

The physical injuries seem to back Z screaming for that length of time.

The words captured on the recording also seem to help Z.  They certainly sound like the desperate screams of someone in fear for their life and in pain.  I guess one could argue that TM could be fearing for his life if Z had his gun drawn, but you don't hear any mention of a gun or any warning related to that in the screams.  This is obviously going to be the prosecutions claim, but its pretty difficult to believe that TM and Z could have been struggling over a gun for this amount of time with Z getting hit multiple times and the gun never going off and none of the cries for help mentioning anything about a gun.  Also, no witnesses ever mention seeing a gun, but obviously it is dark.

IF I had to put odds on how the court would see the screams, I'd say its right around the legal standard of beyond a reasonable doubt that Z is screaming.  If you are asking what I personally believe, I'd say I'm at least 95% sure that the screams for help are Z's.  IF I could hear TM's voice, it would sway my opinion.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: cboldt on July 11, 2012, 11:58:56 AM
The FBI experts said the recording is too poor, though there are other voice experts who say they can tell who isn't screaming.  The prosecution is going to fight like heck to get those experts in, but they have to overcome their own experts that say the audio isn't good enough and the voice is too stressed to try and make a determination.

In its May 12 discovery exhibit, the state lists Mssrs/ Owen and Primeau as "B" witnesses.  Same with Marr and Nakesone of the FBI.  This suggests that the state has no intention of calling these experts to testify.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 11, 2012, 12:00:18 PM
The only thing about W6 - and he clarifies this in his later statement - is that he only assumed the guy on the bottom was screaming.

Martins' back was to him, and George's head was away from him. He wouldn't be able to *see* who was screaming.

I wonder if they asked him if afterwards if the guy he talked to sounded like the guy that had just been screaming.

There is one other thing that's slightly related - I played ice hockey as a kid. Numerous broken noses. Talking -hurts-. Breathing -hurts-. But George seems to be doing just fine, both the night of the shooting and the next day, and his voice sounds the same in later court dates etc.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 11, 2012, 12:03:42 PM
I think the strongest argument against Martin for calling for help, is that he didn't explain the situation to W-6. Martin was on top. It was dark, and Zimmerman's gun is dark in color. If the gun was out it wouldn't be easy for a bystander to see. If Martin was calling for someone to help him disarm Zimmerman, why didn't he explain that to W-6?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 11, 2012, 12:07:17 PM
I think the strongest argument against Martin for calling for help, is that he didn't explain the situation to W-6. Martin was on top. It was dark, and Zimmerman's gun is dark in color. If the gun was out it wouldn't be easy for a bystander to see. If Martin was calling for someone to help him disarm Zimmerman, why didn't he explain that to W-6?
Because he was facing away from the homes. He wouldn't have seen W-6.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 11, 2012, 12:10:01 PM
I don't see how it can be George. The screams on the 911 call are pure, animal-like shrieks of terror. George states that he didn't know right away that his shot had hit Martin...and yet the screams STOP INSTANTLY with the gunshot.


Oh it was George.  He knew his shot hit Trayvon. He didn't desperately stick his gun in the kid's side. He pointed the gun at him, shot and then didn't need help anymore.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 11, 2012, 12:16:55 PM
He wouldn't have seen W-6.

W-6 spoke. He asked what was happening. He said he was calling 911.

If Martin was calling for help, wouldn't that have gotten his attention?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: leftwig on July 11, 2012, 12:42:10 PM
In its May 12 discovery exhibit, the state lists Mssrs/ Owen and Primeau as "B" witnesses.  Same with Marr and Nakesone of the FBI.  This suggests that the state has no intention of calling these experts to testify.

Well let me ask this about a category B witness.  Just as background, I am not a lawyer, but I assume category B means they might be called to rebut testimony, say if someone says it is Z screaming, then would these witnesses be potentially called to rebut?  If so, would they only be called to rebut other expert testimony, or could they be called to say rebut Z's dad from saying its him screaming and how much of their expert opinion on who is screaming be allowed?

I do think the FBI experts pretty much put any idea to rest that the prosecution will use experts to testify with any certainty about who is/isn't screaming for help, but since these experts show up on the witness list at all has me thinking the prosecution is prepared to try and get their testimony in in some manner.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: JW on July 11, 2012, 01:06:04 PM


The screaming stopping at the same time as the shot doesn't really wash with me because the attack stopped also. But the biggest thing that makes that point "pointless" is firing a gun usually will make a person's ears ring instantly. That would be enough to startle someone screaming, even the person who fired the shot. So the notion of Martin stopped screaming because he had been shot is false to me. He didn't die instantly and if the attack stopped George had reason to stop.

Another myth floating around is how could George yell for help if Trayvon was covering his mouth. The huge flaw in that is Trayvon didn't cover George's mouth the whole time. After listening to the 911 call it also sounds like some of the yelling was muffled as well.

Something else I find trouble some is that Tracy Martin originally told Serino it wasn't Trayvon yelling for help on the 911 call but then changed his story. Too fishy...
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: cboldt on July 11, 2012, 01:40:24 PM
... but I assume category B means they might be called to rebut testimony, say if someone says it is Z screaming, then would these witnesses be potentially called to rebut?

Category "A" experts, under Rule 3.220, are "(7) expert witnesses who have not provided a written report and a curriculum vitae or who are going to testify."

Category "B" experts covers all the other experts.  Notes pertaining to Rule 3.220 contain the remark, "Category B witnesses include, but are not limited to, witnesses whose only connection to the case is the fact that they are the owners of property; transporting officers; booking officers; records and evidence custodians; and experts who have filed a report and curriculum vitae and who will not offer opinions subject to the Frye test."

If Zimmerman retains a voice expert, he has to advise the state of this.  The state can then proceed to seek a voice expert to use in rebuttal (could be Owen and/or Primeau - situation changed due to defense action), but the state might as well offer the FBI conclusion in rebuttal, that it's not possible to make a reliable enough determination given the evidence in hand.

We're getting closer to witness lists being locked in.  Docket sounding is scheduled for August 8, and if the rules are followed (they aren't) then all discovery is supposed to have provided by that date, and both the state and defense should be prepared to declare "ready," or not, for trial.  See Motion for Continuance of Docket Sounding for FL 18th Circuit (http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Eaton/Docket_Sounding_Waiver.pdf).  Defense gets one "no questions asked" 4 week continuance.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Kyreth on July 11, 2012, 01:41:19 PM
IF I had to put odds on how the court would see the screams, I'd say its right around the legal standard of beyond a reasonable doubt that Z is screaming.  If you are asking what I personally believe, I'd say I'm at least 95% sure that the screams for help are Z's.  IF I could hear TM's voice, it would sway my opinion.

I tend to agree, I'm convinced it was George.  Some think that it had to have been Trayvon because it was a younger sounding voice...well, IMO George's voice has that quality.

And, it's only a couple words ("Hello" twice), but you can hear Trayvon in the 7-11 in the security footage, and to me he seems to have a noticeably deeper voice.

Start just after 1:10 here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8q7Q5m-JaM0)
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: leftwig on July 11, 2012, 02:02:29 PM
Thank you for humoring my request on explaining the role of the category B expert witnesses.  It just seems to me the prosecution has tried quite a few "tricks" in this case and I was wondering if they might try to use Owen as a rebuttal witness and "sneak" in some comments about why he feels the voice isn't Z's where as the FBI experts would only testify to not being able to make a determination due to poor sound quality. 

I also agree with the idea that we cant make a determination on who was screaming based on the  screams stopping after the shot.  The screams appear to me to be tied to fear and/or an painful reaction.  Martin's attack came to an abrupt end after the shot so TM couldn't be inflicting any more pain and Z's fears could have turned to any number of emotions at the instant he realized TM was no longer controlling/beating him.

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: JW on July 11, 2012, 02:04:54 PM
I tend to agree, I'm convinced it was George.  Some think that it had to have been Trayvon because it was a younger sounding voice...well, IMO George's voice has that quality.

And, it's only a couple words ("Hello" twice), but you can hear Trayvon in the 7-11 in the security footage, and to me he seems to have a noticeably deeper voice.

Start just after 1:10 here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8q7Q5m-JaM0)

I have listened to that video as well and came to the same conclusion. It is just my opinion though.
I also believe if it was really Trayvon's voice the Martin's would have produced a video with him talking. Many people have video of family these days. Hard to believe they would have none.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Kyreth on July 11, 2012, 02:12:54 PM
I have listened to that video as well and came to the same conclusion. It is just my opinion though.
I also believe if it was really Trayvon's voice the Martin's would have produced a video with him talking. Many people have video of family these days. Hard to believe they would have none.

Sybrina says she had a recording of Trayvon in his voicemail IIRC.  As far as I know, she's declined to make it available.

Edit:  Will try and look that up again to make sure.  I think her words were something to the effect that she couldn't bear to hear it again.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Juan on July 11, 2012, 02:28:38 PM
The only thing about W6 - and he clarifies this in his later statement - is that he only assumed the guy on the bottom was screaming.

Martins' back was to him, and George's head was away from him. He wouldn't be able to *see* who was screaming.

I wonder if they asked him if afterwards if the guy he talked to sounded like the guy that had just been screaming.

W6 also had this to say about who he thought was screaming .... it wasn't Trayvon.

"That's why I thought, when I first gave my statement, it was coming from the guy on the
bottom. One, he was on the bottom, so of course, I'm thinking, "Why would the guy on the top be yelling
'help'." Two, it was a clear 'help.' It wasn't an echo-y 'help,' bouncing off, you know, another house from
the guy facing away from me. It was more of a projected, ah, 'help' at that point. So that's why, when I say I can't truly see the face if the the guy on the bottom was yelling 'help,' that's why I thought, ah, you
know, the 'help' was coming from the guy on the bottom at that point. Because it was a clearer 'help,' and
it wasn't a, you know, kind of an echo-y, you know, bouncing off walls type of 'help.' If that helps."
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Redbrow on July 11, 2012, 02:31:15 PM
Because he was facing away from the homes. He wouldn't have seen W-6.

And because TM was facing away, the screams would sound different, reflecting against the walls of the opposite house instead of the direct screams from GZ facing him.

De La Rionda's aggresive style intimidated the witness by making it seem like the only way to verify the screamer would be to see the actual mouth.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Juan on July 11, 2012, 02:48:29 PM
BDLR wasn't the one interviewing W6, it was John Bachelor, a special agent with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: JW on July 11, 2012, 03:53:09 PM

Didn't Austin Brown say the man on the ground was yelling for help?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 11, 2012, 05:14:18 PM
That is not what Zimmerman said. Don't waste your time.
It most certainly is. Have you even watched the videos?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: JW on July 11, 2012, 05:27:38 PM
According to George, Martin had stopped banging his head and was trying to get him to shut up, then he saw his firearm, sat up, and gave his little speech, all while trying to suffocate George, before going for George's firearm.

Need to go back and see how those fit the screams.

The yelling was there when the 911 call was answered so the call didn't record the entire time George was yelling. He doesn't yell the entire time either.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 11, 2012, 07:13:52 PM
According to George, Martin had stopped banging his head and was trying to get him to shut up, then he saw his firearm, sat up, and gave his little speech, all while trying to suffocate George, before going for George's firearm.

Need to go back and see how those fit the screams.



It most certainly is. Have you even watched the videos?

He was shot, sat up and spoke a few words.

IMHO omitting the shot is akin to lying.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on July 11, 2012, 07:18:13 PM
The most interesting thing about the screaming question, I once thought, is that the prosecution used Sybrina Fulton's identification as part of the Probable Cause Affidavit.  Why the heck, I thought, would they cite such an easily refutable piece of evidence?  Did they line up 10 samples of other people screaming under the same conditions and see if she could pick Trayvon's out from them?   I seriously doubt that.  Since then, I have learned, in another thread on this forum, that it didn't make any difference what evidence they cited since it is not possible in Florida to toss out a case on insufficiency of the affidavit.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: TalkLeft on July 11, 2012, 07:45:48 PM
The only thing about W6 - and he clarifies this in his later statement - is that he only assumed the guy on the bottom was screaming. Martins' back was to him, and George's head was away from him. He wouldn't be able to *see* who was screaming.

That's not right, he could "see" his face while they were wrestling, before they moved positions. From the 3/20 transcript of W-6's interview with FDLE:

Quote
John W_6: They're struggling. That's what mean by wrestling at that point. I can't tell, you know, what is going on at that point. All I know is someone is on top of the other person and I hear "Help, help, help" yelled a couple times, and me just thinking that it is the person on the bottom yelling "help." Because, you know, just-- if anybody saw that, they probably would have thought the same thing - that the person on the bottom is yelling “Help”. If you see two guys fighting. 'Cause I couldn't see the front side of, ah, the Black male's face. But I could see partial, you know, front side of the guy on the bottom because his face was facing this way when he was pushing up, er, you know, they were wrestling on top of each other.

****
...Investigator: Ok. When they were laying on the ground, the person on the bottom would have been some degree facing you - I mean, flat - but facing towards you, maybe at an angle. The person on top would have been facing away.

John W_6: Away, correct

They were in one position on the grass and another when they moved to the sidewalk.

Quote
So when they were wrestling, when I said, "Cut it out," and before I turned to go inside, they moved up onto the sidewalk. And they're no longer laying this way, they were this way at that point. So they wrestled to that point.

Investigator: And, and you're showing, ah, parallel with the-- with the dog walk?

John W_6: Yeah, this is the sidewalk. They were this way when I first saw 'em wrestling, and moved to that way.

Investigator: Ok. And, and, who's in what position at the point?

John W_6: Same position at that point.

Investigator: And, and what is that?

John W_6: Ah, the guy with black sweatshirt is on top of the guy with the red or, or white sweatshirt.
And that's why I made the statement that he was hitting him on top-- Because, I mean, that's what it looked like from where I was standing. It could have been him just trying to forcefully hold the guy down, or it could be hitting him. You know, I just truly can't-- You know, after I thought-- You know, I'm thinking about it and everything. It could have been either. It's jus-- You know, I can't see that close to where they were actually at. But he was still on top with both hands, ah, either trying to hold the guy down or hitting him at that point.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 11, 2012, 10:54:38 PM

There is a five second gap in the screaming, from 0:34 to 0:38.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 11, 2012, 11:26:59 PM
Didn't Austin Brown say the man on the ground was yelling for help?

Originally or after he changed his statement? Originally it was the guy on the ground, then it was "Trayvon Martin" - I assume he was coached to say this, given he doesn't say whether the person was above or below.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 11, 2012, 11:27:48 PM
He was shot, sat up and spoke a few words.

IMHO omitting the shot is akin to lying.

And I think what you're doing is equivalent to putting your hands over your ears and screaming 'la la la I'd can't hear you'. If you're not even going to attempt to have an intellectually honest debate, at least let the rest of us know.

I'll make it easy for you: 32:45 or so of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI&feature=related). Paraphrasing, but: 'My shirt came up, it exposed my fire arm, and that's when he sat up and looked, and said, you're going to die tonight, and I felt him take his hand off my mouth and slide it down my chest.


So he sat up and made a little speech, all with a hand over George's mouth. Or, exactly what I said George had said earlier.


Now, I don't know about you, but if I was in a struggle on the ground and saw the guy's gun its its holster, and I was intent on getting it, I'd just, you know...reach for it. I really don't think I'd waste time by sitting up and making a little speech, thereby letting the other guy know that I had seen it.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DarkSkiesRbest on July 11, 2012, 11:29:01 PM
There is a five second gap in the screaming, from 0:34 to 0:38.
I find it hard to believe that the only person to deliver blows that night was screaming like a banshee. Much of the fight was not recorded. I also find it hard to believe one person was silent the entire time. Based on everything I have seen so far, it was George screaming most of the time.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: TalkLeft on July 11, 2012, 11:42:26 PM
Originally or after he changed his statement? Originally it was the guy on the ground, then it was "Trayvon Martin" - I assume he was coached to say this, given he doesn't say whether the person was above or below.

Austin Brown only saw one person, not two people. The person he saw was laying on the ground crying out for help.  He said he thought the guy's shirt was red, but after his mother got involved, she said Serino had put words in his mouth. It doesn't sound like Serino put words in his mouth listening to his interview (http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W14_SPD03052012.wav). Serino asks him  what the guy was wearing and he says a red shirt.

Austin also says he only got to look for a few seconds. He thought the guy may have fallen and broken his leg. Serino quits questioning him so abruptedly it seems like he doesn't believe him or thinks it's not worth the effort.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: who007 on July 12, 2012, 01:35:29 AM
...

I'll make it easy for you: 32:45 or so of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI&feature=related). Paraphrasing, but: 'My shirt came up, it exposed my fire arm, and that's when he sat up and looked, and said, you're going to die tonight, and I felt him take his hand off my mouth and slide it down my chest.
...

What I can't figure out, is why there is no bloody TM handprint down GZ's shirt of jacket.
Title: W-14, Leading Questions?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 12, 2012, 01:40:34 AM
It doesn't sound like Serino put words in his mouth listening to his interview (http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W14_SPD03052012.wav).

Quote
Serino: We gotta start all over again.

It sounds like an earlier part of the interview wasn't recorded, perhaps because of a technical problem.

Title: Blood on Clothes?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 12, 2012, 01:56:02 AM
What I can't figure out, is why there is no bloody TM handprint down GZ's shirt of jacket.
I think there was blood on the shirt and the jacket, although it's not mentioned in the property log.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 12, 2012, 02:04:34 AM
Property log? We don't need no stinkin' property log. Here he is the night  (http://baynews9.com/content/dam/news/images/2012/05/GEORGE-ZIMMERMAN-BODY-0517.jpg)of the shooting in the same clothes.

If you can see even a spec of blood on his shirt, jacket, jeans...you'll be the first.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Cylinder on July 12, 2012, 02:15:29 AM
It might be a good idea to start a new thread for discussion of blood evidence. Since the issue of the identity of the screams will probably be important to this case, I'd like to see this thread remain open.

I'm not trying to play moderator here. Just some freindly peer advice. :) 
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 12, 2012, 03:10:28 AM
Austin Brown only saw one person, not two people. The person he saw was laying on the ground crying out for help.  He said he thought the guy's shirt was red, but after his mother got involved, she said Serino had put words in his mouth. It doesn't sound like Serino put words in his mouth listening to his interview (http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/W14_SPD03052012.wav). Serino asks him  what the guy was wearing and he says a red shirt.

Austin also says he only got to look for a few seconds. He thought the guy may have fallen and broken his leg. Serino quits questioning him so abruptedly it seems like he doesn't believe him or thinks it's not worth the effort.

I was going based on the two videos that were released - one where he was outside and he said the person on the ground, the other he's inside and he says that it was Trayvon.

Edit: I just listened to it, apparently I hadn't listened to that one before and I agree, but from the beginning Serino says "Gotta start all over again" so I guess an argument can be made that it happened before the recording started.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on July 12, 2012, 06:07:41 AM
Austin also says he only got to look for a few seconds. He thought the guy may have fallen and broken his leg. Serino quits questioning him so abruptedly it seems like he doesn't believe him or thinks it's not worth the effort.

I would have broken off the interview also; or maybe I would have asked him if he saw the screaming guy's mouth move.   If he didn't see anybody besides a guy on the ground with a red jacket, screaming, how could I take this kid seriously?  Was Martin rendered invisible by his hoodie? 
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: JW on July 12, 2012, 06:27:08 AM
I would have broken off the interview also; or maybe I would have asked him if he saw the screaming guy's mouth move.   If he didn't see anybody besides a guy on the ground with a red jacket, screaming, how could I take this kid seriously?  Was Martin rendered invisible by his hoodie?

I don't know exactly how close Austin was but he claimed to have only gotten a quick look. Take a look at the 7-11 video of Martin. That hoodie was pretty dark so it may have been nearly impossible to see him in the dark from a distance.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 12, 2012, 06:49:20 AM
And I think what you're doing is equivalent to putting your hands over your ears and screaming 'la la la I'd can't hear you'. If you're not even going to attempt to have an intellectually honest debate, at least let the rest of us know.

I'll make it easy for you: 32:45 or so of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI&feature=related). Paraphrasing, but: 'My shirt came up, it exposed my fire arm, and that's when he sat up and looked, and said, you're going to die tonight, and I felt him take his hand off my mouth and slide it down my chest.


So he sat up and made a little speech, all with a hand over George's mouth. Or, exactly what I said George had said earlier.


Now, I don't know about you, but if I was in a struggle on the ground and saw the guy's gun its its holster, and I was intent on getting it, I'd just, you know...reach for it. I really don't think I'd waste time by sitting up and making a little speech, thereby letting the other guy know that I had seen it.

In the renactment video he does not mention Martin rearing up until after the shot. "your going to die " is not a "speech"  neither is "Shut the Fug up"  however I am not quite sure was was said by Martin after the shot
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 12, 2012, 06:52:38 AM
I don't know exactly how close Austin was but he claimed to have only gotten a quick look. Take a look at the 7-11 video of Martin. That hoodie was pretty dark so it may have been nearly impossible to see him in the dark from a distance.

That was my thought also.
Depending on the angle  Martins 'shadow' may not have obstructed much of Zimmerman's upper body.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 12, 2012, 07:03:15 AM
I was going based on the two videos that were released - one where he was outside and he said the person on the ground, the other he's inside and he says that it was Trayvon.

How would W-14 know it was Martin?

I don't believe he ever said it was Martin, as opposed to saying that he 'thought' or 'believed'. I think you are misrepresenting what he said.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: ding7777 on July 12, 2012, 07:08:08 AM
Quote
Austin Brown only saw one person, not two people. The person he saw was laying on the ground crying out for help

My take is that Austin attributes the screaming to the person he saw - i.e, Austin did not see the other person therefor,  the screams had to be coming from the person he saw
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on July 12, 2012, 09:28:24 AM
For anyone who thinks that the testimony of Owen and Primeau will ever be heard in this case, please do some reading:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/06/voice-forensics-experts-cast-doubt-on-orlando-sentinel-analysis-of-trayvon-martin-911-tape/

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/06/voice-forensics-experts-cast-doubt-on-orlando-sentinel-analysis-of-trayvon-martin-911-tape/2/

http://legalinsurrection.com/2012/04/audio-expert-in-martin-case-demanded-at-least-six-similar-voice-exemplars-in-prior-case/   especially the comment section.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 12, 2012, 10:59:03 AM
How would W-14 know it was Martin?

I don't believe he ever said it was Martin, as opposed to saying that he 'thought' or 'believed'. I think you are misrepresenting what he said.

It seems the original video where he was inside has been scrubbed (at least, I can't find it). The one I recall, the person he's talking to can be heard asking him the questions and at the end he asks W14 who was yelling and he says it was Trayvon (with a smile actually - the only time he smiled in the whole video). The video being found now has the interviewer cut out completely along with that question and answer. I'll keep looking for it and if I find it I'll post urls to both videos here.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Jack203 on July 17, 2012, 07:26:16 PM
I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been a more discussed/debated point.  Its quite obvious the prosecution is relying on being able to show that its TM screaming as its one of the only facts (someone was screaming for help and they have a witness saying it was TM) that they mention in their affidavit for probable cause. 

Both families are mostly going to cancel themselves out, though I imagine Serino will be called to testify that Tracy initially said it was not his son, so if anything, the family's statements appear to balance in Z's favor. 

The FBI experts said the recording is too poor, though there are other voice experts who say they can tell who isn't screaming.  The prosecution is going to fight like heck to get those experts in, but they have to overcome their own experts that say the audio isn't good enough and the voice is too stressed to try and make a determination.  There of course would also be the issue of trying to compare a calm speaking voice inside a car with a screaming voice of desperation outside from far away.  Also, if the screaming voice was Z's, he'd have a broken nose at this point which would also alter his voice.  I'd be quite surprised if any expert testimony gets in saying it wasn't Z and I think its most likely the experts are going to say we can't tell from the 911 call.

The witness testimony is kinda mixed as many indicate the screams sound like that of a young boy.  Of course there wasn't a young boy involved in the conflict, so I'm not sure how the judge/jury would see that.  The defense would like to have a recent recording of TM's voice.  IT doesn't seem clear if one exists.  His photos would obviously indicate that he has hit and gone through puberty, but that can't show how deep his voice is, other than showing he's not boy like.  W6 appears to be the best witness to identify the voice having Martin on top and yelling from what he believes to be from the guy on the bottom.  Austin could help as well as he see's the man in red on the ground and he yelled for help, but Austin's mom seems to have some reservations about her sons testimony, so we don't know what he will end up testifying to. 

The physical injuries seem to back Z screaming for that length of time.

The words captured on the recording also seem to help Z.  They certainly sound like the desperate screams of someone in fear for their life and in pain.  I guess one could argue that TM could be fearing for his life if Z had his gun drawn, but you don't hear any mention of a gun or any warning related to that in the screams.  This is obviously going to be the prosecutions claim, but its pretty difficult to believe that TM and Z could have been struggling over a gun for this amount of time with Z getting hit multiple times and the gun never going off and none of the cries for help mentioning anything about a gun.  Also, no witnesses ever mention seeing a gun, but obviously it is dark.

IF I had to put odds on how the court would see the screams, I'd say its right around the legal standard of beyond a reasonable doubt that Z is screaming.  If you are asking what I personally believe, I'd say I'm at least 95% sure that the screams for help are Z's.  IF I could hear TM's voice, it would sway my opinion.

Succinctly said leftwig.  And to answer your question on why it isn't discussed more, is because the Trayvon supporters know their arguments regarding the screams are absolutely ludicrous.  So they'll focus endlessly on the so called discrepancies of GZ's testimony.

In my opinion, the screams are pivotal, and the evidence is overwhelming the screams were made by the person that was violently assaulted (GZs).  It goes beyond common sense to think otherwise, you need to have an agenda, or simply want to give every benefit of the doubt possible to TM for various ideologies.

And speaking of ideologies, I'm a liberal who thinks Obama is the best president of my lifetime.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Mary2012 on July 17, 2012, 08:59:00 PM
... Also, if the screaming voice was Z's, he'd have a broken nose at this point which would also alter his voice.  ...  The physical injuries seem to back Z screaming for that length of time.
...

Now that you are putting it as you do, I'm wondering, with a broken nose and assuming blood is draining down the back of his throat, would GZ really be able to project his voice enough to be heard in the background as it is --- so loud, sustained, and strong?   

I keep going back and forth on the voice (whether it's GZs or TMs) myself and apparently GZs exemplar sheds no new light on it either, unless I'm mistaken re the results.

At any rate, I happened to stumble upon the following audio of the part of the 911 call from which the screaming and gunshot are both heard and thought I would post it here for any audio experts (which I'm not) to weigh in on it (below).  The person who worked on the audio feels a scream can be heard just seconds after the shot.  Now I thought all such pertinent extraneous sounds had been identified, i.e., a witness thought there was more than one gunshot -- it turned out to be a screen door slamming type of thing?  I'm not so sure the "scream" is a screen door, however, but maybe it is or there is some other explanation for it.  I also don't remember GZ referring to a "scream" after the shot.  (Long) before this, it seems to me I could hear it when listening to the regular call because whatever I thought I'd heard (& it's a very vague memory, might not even be the same sound), I thought was coming from the home of the caller; I could be wrong about that though.  Anyway, here is the link and the caption; the gunshot is at 1:09 and the "scream" is around 1:12.  Perhaps some of you already know about this audio OR what the police attributed as the source of the "scream"? :

"333maxwell - Zimmerman, scream after shot 1:12ish..halfspeed"

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11548279

333maxwell's caption: "911 calls of altercation in background between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin. This audio was compressed, and runs at just a .o1 of a tenth over half speed. It's pitch however is 100 percent true to the original."

 


 

 
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: jupchurch on July 17, 2012, 10:08:19 PM
When the 911 calls were originally released, I downloaded them and looked at them using Audacity, a free audio editor.  When you look at the screams and do a frequency analysis the very last scream is at a higher register than the rest. It appears to me that the last scream is actually from a different person.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 17, 2012, 10:09:36 PM
Mary one of the commentators here did detailed audio analysis using professional tools and published the results ( including screen shots of some  Time Domain Analyzer)

He struck me as a neutral , and qualified analyst. As I remember he found an approximately 1 second delay after the last scream stopped and the shot. He also notice that the volume of the last few screams was muted.

Maybe someone can help find the posts?

I would like to get see his analysis.

I listened. To be honest it sounded like a background sound in the police station? But that's a very uneducated guess.





Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 17, 2012, 10:11:09 PM
When the 911 calls were originally released, I downloaded them and looked at them using Audacity, a free audio editor.  When you look at the screams and do a frequency analysis the very last scream is at a higher register than the rest. It appears to me that the last scream is actually from a different person.

Thanks your entrance broke the sound barrier. Certainly faster than my fingers  :D
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Mary2012 on July 17, 2012, 11:22:00 PM
Okay, thanks to you both.  Yes I'd like to see the detailed analysis -- would it be in the TL forum? say, late March? (just guessing re when the 911 calls were released; maybe it was mid-March?)

It sort of sounds like there is a kid in the home and I was thinking maybe it was the child (if there was one there).  The lady keeps telling someone to get away from the window and come here, etc. 
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Mary2012 on July 17, 2012, 11:25:01 PM

You both know I'm referring to the "scream noise" after the shot, correct?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 17, 2012, 11:32:18 PM
You both know I'm referring to the "scream noise" after the shot, correct?

I think that sound is what jupchurch  refers to as the last scream. If you check his posts you can finds some pictures.


But I'm butting out of this conversation I have nothing to add.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 17, 2012, 11:35:33 PM
Okay, thanks to you both.  Yes I'd like to see the detailed analysis -- would it be in the TL forum? say, late March? (just guessing re when the 911 calls were released; maybe it was mid-March?)

It sort of sounds like there is a kid in the home and I was thinking maybe it was the child (if there was one there).  The lady keeps telling someone to get away from the window and come here, etc.

It could have been one of this boards commentators who happened on the scenes and aghast that Martin and Zimmerman had deviated from the commentators detail timeline.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 17, 2012, 11:59:39 PM
When the 911 calls were originally released, I downloaded them and looked at them using Audacity, a free audio editor.  When you look at the screams and do a frequency analysis the very last scream is at a higher register than the rest. It appears to me that the last scream is actually from a different person.

It's a different word being screamed, but by the same person*. The word being screamed at the end isn't "help" .. it is "stop." You can verify this by "reading" the spectrograph of the audio (if you aren't experienced in reading it you probably won't be able to, and I really don't have the time to explain it, maybe some audio analyst out there somewhere has already done the reading and typed it up on their blog somewhere).

"By the same person" is my opinion, which I posted reasoning for elsewhere in these forums.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: jupchurch on July 18, 2012, 12:57:41 AM
You both know I'm referring to the "scream noise" after the shot, correct?

No I am referring to the screaming just before the gun shot. Since I used free software, you can download it and verify it yourself. I'm personally suspicious of people who say 'trust me' based on their credentials, but who don't provide any way to verify their credentials.

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/ (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/)

http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/wintess_11/witness_11-911/911_wit_11_spd_226.wav (http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/wintess_11/witness_11-911/911_wit_11_spd_226.wav)

The scream I'm referring to is at about 34 seconds.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 18, 2012, 01:07:35 AM
No I am referring to the screaming just before the gun shot.
<snip>
The scream I'm referring to is at about 34 seconds.

There's one more scream after that one, compared to the others it's extremely quiet.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2012, 06:42:51 AM
Okay, thanks to you both.  Yes I'd like to see the detailed analysis -- would it be in the TL forum? say, late March? (just guessing re when the 911 calls were released; maybe it was mid-March?)

It sort of sounds like there is a kid in the home and I was thinking maybe it was the child (if there was one there).  The lady keeps telling someone to get away from the window and come here, etc.

That's her fiancee, Jeremy. She is W-11 and he is W-20.

After the gunshot they ran upstairs. He was slow and she called to him. At one point you hear her say 'get up here.' After they were upstairs she told him to stay away from the windows.

Mary Cutcher also called to Selma Lamilla, causing the dispatcher to ask if she had a child. She said her child was across the street.

I believe Austin was the only minor in the homes from which 911 calls were made. One of the children of W-1 or W-2 (house-sharing sisters who didn't call) was present with a friend. I picture them as teenagers, but I don't remember if there was any actual indication of how old they are.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 18, 2012, 06:44:57 AM
The 911 calls and Zimmerman's NE call were released to the media late on March 16. I think it may have been March 17 by the time the public heard them.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 18, 2012, 06:54:44 AM
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11548279

333maxwell's caption: "911 calls of altercation in background between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin. This audio was compressed, and runs at just a .o1 of a tenth over half speed. It's pitch however is 100 percent true to the original."

It is the original. I'm not sure what exactly this person is pointing out but what I hear (and see) is:

The dispatcher ("You don't know [unintelligible]")
Interference (electronic)
A beep (this beep is electronic)

I'm not hearing a scream after the shot.


(Note: By "see" I mean in the spectrograph. When you do audio analysis a lot of it is visual - looking at various things. For example, the beep mentioned above, I'm 100% certain it's electronic because the signature in the spectrograph indicates as much. How can I be certain? Well, I'll give a couple reasons but there are many more: 1) lack of entropy, everything in nature [to include noises made by human bodies] is affected by entropy, 2) The frequency of the noise isn't variable, it does not change at all throughout the whole duration.)
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 18, 2012, 06:56:33 AM
Mary one of the commentators here did detailed audio analysis using professional tools and published the results ( including screen shots of some  Time Domain Analyzer)

He struck me as a neutral , and qualified analyst. As I remember he found an approximately 1 second delay after the last scream stopped and the shot. He also notice that the volume of the last few screams was muted.

Maybe someone can help find the posts?

I would like to get see his analysis.

Are you talking about mine? Here's what I think you're talking about: http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,1985.msg95112.html#msg95112
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 18, 2012, 06:59:30 AM
You both know I'm referring to the "scream noise" after the shot, correct?
I don't hear any 'scream' after the shot, but I'm not working off a great audio set up at the moment.

Screaming after the shot would make George's claim more credible to me, since it would show he was still fearful (he says he didn't know that his shot had hit Martin at first) - since Martin can't be screaming if he apparently only said 'you got me' or something.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: ding7777 on July 18, 2012, 07:11:42 AM
Are you talking about mine? Here's what I think you're talking about: http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,1985.msg95112.html#msg95112

Could you re-post the image? The image link is returning a bad url
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 18, 2012, 07:20:52 AM
Could you re-post the image? The image link is returning a bad url

Use the URL right below that post - I didn't hit the modify button in time to fix it.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: MJW on July 18, 2012, 02:05:12 PM
I assume if it's true, someone else has noticed it, but when I open the scream 911 call in Audacity and select the region from 36.811 to 37.787 (typing it in, using seconds and millisecond format), I think I can hear words being spoken.  I'm not certain what they are, and I won't say what I think they might be in order not to influence anyone else who wants to try it.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2012, 02:13:41 PM
I remember early on reading that at least one witness reported hearing calmer words being spoken by someone other than the screamer.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: MJW on July 18, 2012, 02:15:07 PM
The words I think I might hear don't sound calm.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on July 18, 2012, 02:33:58 PM
Tell me tell me tell me!
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2012, 02:46:26 PM
Tell me tell me tell me!

I think I hear.

Quote
We'll get right back to our scheduled broadcast, right after....
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 18, 2012, 02:53:51 PM
I assume if it's true, someone else has noticed it, but when I open the scream 911 call in Audacity and select the region from 36.811 to 37.787 (typing it in, using seconds and millisecond format), I think I can hear words being spoken.  I'm not certain what they are, and I won't say what I think they might be in order not to influence anyone else who wants to try it.
I could be convinced it's anything from 'trolololol' to the sound of the dispatcher typing to someone reciting a recipe for an egg salad sandwich. In other words, I hear nutin'. Maybe others with better sound equipment can pitch in.

Possible something is there. People still insist they hear GZ say 'effin g--ns' when I just hear 'effin' punks', and I thought GZ was saying 'keys are in my truck' when it seems like he's saying 'you'll see my by my truck' or something. So who knows?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: MJW on July 18, 2012, 03:01:51 PM
Tell me tell me tell me!

I'll at least I wait for a few more people to listen to it.  I'm reasonably convinced I hear three shouted syllables.  I'm much less certain about what's being said.  It's so easy to hear what you expect to hear.  When I listen to the last scream at about 43.44, I hear "Help!"; but when AJ said it's "Stop!" I could also hear that.  (I still think it's more likely "Help!")
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: FromBelow on July 18, 2012, 03:04:04 PM
People hear what they want/expect to hear. Some examples.

http://www.kissthisguy.com/funny.php
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 18, 2012, 03:08:10 PM
Common sense tells me that the loser of an altercation/scuffle/fight would be calling for help.  After the gunshot, there is no reason to yell anymore.

That said, I don't know who is yelling for help.  All I know is that is not the voice of a young boy.  It could be either of them. 

It is still one of the saddest things I have ever listened to...
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: FromBelow on July 18, 2012, 03:16:29 PM
Common sense tells me that the loser of an altercation/scuffle/fight would be calling for help.  After the gunshot, there is no reason to yell anymore.

Yeah, GZ's injuries combined with witnesses placing him on the bottom will likely convince most jurists (IMO) in the absence of any contradicting evidence (none that I know of). The reason it's such an issue is because it's such strong evidence of fear. Almost terror. That's why those that want GZ convicted try so hard to find theories to explain how it might be TM screaming. But AFAIK in the absence of evidence saying it's TM the benefit of the doubt favors GZ. Is that right?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Mary2012 on July 18, 2012, 03:19:30 PM
That's her fiancee, Jeremy. She is W-11 and he is W-20.

After the gunshot they ran upstairs. He was slow and she called to him. At one point you hear her say 'get up here.' After they were upstairs she told him to stay away from the windows.

Mary Cutcher also called to Selma Lamilla, causing the dispatcher to ask if she had a child. She said her child was across the street.

I believe Austin was the only minor in the homes from which 911 calls were made. One of the children of W-1 or W-2 (house-sharing sisters who didn't call) was present with a friend. I picture them as teenagers, but I don't remember if there was any actual indication of how old they are.

Thanks NoMatter!  Not long after I posted, the thought occurred to me that maybe this was the call from the home of the couple & sought out a fuller version to listen to.  For some reason it didn't register with me earlier just listening to the short version (333maxwell's) but initially, when the audios were first released, I had in mind it might've been a scream of some kind from a (quite young) kid in the house (perhaps reacting to such a loud sound?).  Now after listening to the short version, I'm not sure what it is.  Once I'd heard the police had identified all the extraneous sounds, I must've put the entire matter aside thinking we'd get their results at some point but I've not come across it in any of the discovery and of course, maybe it was just rumor, too.


 
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Mary2012 on July 18, 2012, 03:22:37 PM
No I am referring to the screaming just before the gun shot. Since I used free software, you can download it and verify it yourself. I'm personally suspicious of people who say 'trust me' based on their credentials, but who don't provide any way to verify their credentials.

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/ (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/)

http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/wintess_11/witness_11-911/911_wit_11_spd_226.wav (http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/wintess_11/witness_11-911/911_wit_11_spd_226.wav)

The scream I'm referring to is at about 34 seconds.

Thanks JUpchurch -- yes, I think I'll give this a try later on when I get a free block of time.  Thanks for the links and your input.

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Mary2012 on July 18, 2012, 03:36:34 PM
It is the original. I'm not sure what exactly this person is pointing out but what I hear (and see) is:

The dispatcher ("You don't know [unintelligible]")
Interference (electronic)
A beep (this beep is electronic)

I'm not hearing a scream after the shot.


(Note: By "see" I mean in the spectrograph. When you do audio analysis a lot of it is visual - looking at various things. For example, the beep mentioned above, I'm 100% certain it's electronic because the signature in the spectrograph indicates as much. How can I be certain? Well, I'll give a couple reasons but there are many more: 1) lack of entropy, everything in nature [to include noises made by human bodies] is affected by entropy, 2) The frequency of the noise isn't variable, it does not change at all throughout the whole duration.)

I understand what you're saying re "see" despite not knowing anything about audio analysis.  It would make sense to put something like this to that type of a test.   I've listened to it over and over and over again and whereas I'm not hearing a "beep" yet, I can hear how it might not be a scream.  Thanks for your description and links; I'll have to check them out.

 
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2012, 03:56:14 PM
Common sense tells me that the loser of an altercation/scuffle/fight would be calling for help.  After the gunshot, there is no reason to yell anymore.

That said, I don't know who is yelling for help.  All I know is that is not the voice of a young boy.  It could be either of them. 

It is still one of the saddest things I have ever listened to...

Has anyone crossed check the 911 tapes from Johns call? It may be a way to 'filter out' noise local to one phone.

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Mary2012 on July 18, 2012, 03:58:48 PM
I don't hear any 'scream' after the shot, but I'm not working off a great audio set up at the moment.

Screaming after the shot would make George's claim more credible to me, since it would show he was still fearful (he says he didn't know that his shot had hit Martin at first) - since Martin can't be screaming if he apparently only said 'you got me' or something.

Thanks for letting me know you don't hear a scream.

Re it making GZs claim more credible:  I understand what you're saying but if so, I think he would've been certain to mention it.  From what we can tell, he hasn't mentioned it at all, only the "You got me", etc., lines and his not knowing he'd shot TM, etc., as his (GZs) account of what happened. 

One might also be able to view it from the TM side, i.e., it could also be (just assuming it is a scream; I would guess at this point it isn't but just assuming it is), a last ditch effort of someone who has just been shot, trying to get out one more scream for help and not being able to do so, type of thing. 

No matter what, whether the sound turns out to be human/ non-human, it just seems given it's proximity to the actual shot, that someone would've looked into what exactly was the source of that sound.




Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2012, 05:25:24 PM
I don't hear any 'scream' after the shot, but I'm not working off a great audio set up at the moment.

Screaming after the shot would make George's claim more credible to me, since it would show he was still fearful (he says he didn't know that his shot had hit Martin at first) - since Martin can't be screaming if he apparently only said 'you got me' or something.

Why would GZ still scream if Martin was off him?

Have you ever had a firearm discharge in your face, let alone at night, let alone after you've been pummeled and are a little woozy?

It's a little disconcerting even if you're used to it, and GZ wasn't.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2012, 06:10:13 PM
Because he's been screaming for help, and still needs to scream for help? He doesn't think his shot hit Martin yet so Martin could go after him and/or the gun at any moment, right?
Huh? Of course GZ was used to hearing a firearm discharge; he'd been to the Gander Mountain shooting range many times with Osterman.

I've seen stories that say he'd been, I don't know about many, and I can tell you flatly--as an shooter ranked from Expert to High Master in several different shooting games by the NRA and USA Shooting, it takes a lot more than just going to a range a handful of times.
Add in the life or death stress of the event AND the darkness (big flash--blinding), and you've got a disoriented person. Not to mention being beaten previous.

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: cboldt on July 18, 2012, 06:21:06 PM
I've seen stories that say he'd been, I don't know about many, and I can tell you flatly--as an shooter ranked from Expert to High Master in several different shooting games by the NRA and USA Shooting, it takes a lot more than just going to a range a handful of times.
Add in the life or death stress of the event AND the darkness (big flash--blinding), and you've got a disoriented person. Not to mention being beaten previous.

No hearing protection.  That makes quite a difference.

I bet if Zimmerman had kept screaming after the shot, it'd be claimed as evidence that he'd committed murder.  There isn't a single one of these "micro arguments" that Zimmerman can win against a person who finds him guilty.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Cylinder on July 18, 2012, 06:23:29 PM
If you take the time to actually study Zimmerman's statements, he pretty cleary articulates the after the he was shot, Martin sat up and his attack ended. No longer being assaulted might be a reason to no longer screaming for help, right?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: unitron on July 18, 2012, 07:22:33 PM
It is the original. I'm not sure what exactly this person is pointing out but what I hear (and see) is:

The dispatcher ("You don't know [unintelligible]")
Interference (electronic)
A beep (this beep is electronic)

I'm not hearing a scream after the shot.


(Note: By "see" I mean in the spectrograph. When you do audio analysis a lot of it is visual - looking at various things. For example, the beep mentioned above, I'm 100% certain it's electronic because the signature in the spectrograph indicates as much. How can I be certain? Well, I'll give a couple reasons but there are many more: 1) lack of entropy, everything in nature [to include noises made by human bodies] is affected by entropy, 2) The frequency of the noise isn't variable, it does not change at all throughout the whole duration.)

I'm not understanding what you're trying to say with the entropy reference.

Are you saying the "beep" has a single fixed frequency and an attack and decay signature different from the other sounds on the recording?  Rise time and fall time more nearly instantaneous?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 18, 2012, 07:26:27 PM
If you take the time to actually study Zimmerman's statements, he pretty cleary articulates the after the he was shot, Martin sat up and his attack ended. No longer being assaulted might be a reason to no longer screaming for help, right?
How long do you think it would take for this to occur and for it to register with GZ? If George was truly afraid for his life, you really think George would stop screaming instantaneously with the gunshot and not yell even once for help afterwards?

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: cboldt on July 18, 2012, 07:38:36 PM
How long do you think it would take for this to occur and for it to register with GZ? If George was truly afraid for his life, you really think George would stop screaming instantaneously with the gunshot and not yell even once for help afterwards?

Everybody reacts differently.  If I'm taking a beating, and more or less panicked, I stop screaming the instant the attacker gets off me.  And if I've got a massive force advantage (gun in the hand) I'm past the point of screaming for help and at the point of acting, watching, and self-help.  I don't need help anymore - it's too late for that.  Once the fear of death passes, the calculus changes again.  I think all that "adjustment" can happen in realtime - seconds, if not fractions of a second.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 18, 2012, 07:44:30 PM
Everybody reacts differently.  If I'm taking a beating, and more or less panicked, I stop screaming the instant the attacker gets off me.  And if I've got a massive force advantage (gun in the hand) I'm past the point of screaming for help and at the point of acting, watching, and self-help.  I don't need help anymore - it's too late for that.  Once the fear of death passes, the calculus changes again.  I think all that "adjustment" can happen in realtime - seconds, if not fractions of a second.
And I call baloney - after being told how George would be addled and woozy from being punched and all, yet George's mind was so finely calibrated that he knew in a fraction of a second that he was no longer in danger of death? Even tho he states that he didn't know initially that his shot hit Martin?

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2012, 07:56:34 PM
And I call baloney - after being told how George would be addled and woozy from being punched and all, yet George's mind was so finely calibrated that he knew in a fraction of a second that he was no longer in danger of death? Even tho he states that he didn't know initially that his shot hit Martin?

In other words--there's nothing at all that can happen, be said or be shown to you--save surveillance video from the Snoopy blimp or a passing UFO--that will convince you, you're either a hard core GZ is guilty guy or you just plain like to argue.

The latter is probably preferable to the former.  :o
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: cboldt on July 18, 2012, 07:58:40 PM
And I call baloney - after being told how George would be addled and woozy from being punched and all, yet George's mind was so finely calibrated that he knew in a fraction of a second that he was no longer in danger of death? Even tho he states that he didn't know initially that his shot hit Martin?

You can call whatever you want.  I'm telling you how I think I would react, and I've been in fights where I was on the losing end (sucker punched, similar to Zimmerman's experience).  Martin stopped his attack.  No more hands going for nose or mouth.  He's withdrawing.  The situation is changing, in a pretty radical way.  Danger over?  Maybe, maybe not - Zimmerman says he sat on Martin and aimed to restrain his hands (there's dispute about what he did, except I think there is no dispute that he didn't shoot Martin again), and asked the first person on the scene to help.  But his sense of impending risk of death has passed.

Ever been in a near car wreck?  Any doubt in your mind when the danger had passed?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2012, 08:01:44 PM
And I call baloney - after being told how George would be addled and woozy from being punched and all, yet George's mind was so finely calibrated that he knew in a fraction of a second that he was no longer in danger of death? Even tho he states that he didn't know initially that his shot hit Martin?

Gee I thought each scream was followed by a pause. Is that so hard? Anyway once George has the gun the dynamic changes. there a chance that he might live. I personally would concentrate on firing the gun.

After the shot Zimmerman obviously knew ( Martin reared up) that the fight was now different. Otherwise he would have pulled the trigger until he was sure.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2012, 08:04:49 PM
In other words--there's nothing at all that can happen, be said or be shown to you--save surveillance video from the Snoopy blimp or a passing UFO--that will convince you, you're either a hard core GZ is guilty guy or you just plain like to argue.

The latter is probably preferable to the former.  :o

But he is not very good at the latter.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2012, 08:05:57 PM
And I call baloney - after being told how George would be addled and woozy from being punched and all, yet George's mind was so finely calibrated that he knew in a fraction of a second that he was no longer in danger of death? Even tho he states that he didn't know initially that his shot hit Martin?
Sounds like you've been fortunate to live a very sheltered, uneventful life.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2012, 08:19:48 PM
But he is not very good at the latter.

But he thinks he is. That's what's important. Or something.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Kyreth on July 18, 2012, 08:21:52 PM
And I call baloney - after being told how George would be addled and woozy from being punched and all, yet George's mind was so finely calibrated that he knew in a fraction of a second that he was no longer in danger of death? Even tho he states that he didn't know initially that his shot hit Martin?

I take it you've never heard a loud sudden noise suddenly cause silence in the room?  Why would anyone who has assume this case would be any different?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: cboldt on July 18, 2012, 08:26:24 PM
In other words--there's nothing at all that can happen, be said or be shown to you--save surveillance video from the Snoopy blimp or a passing UFO--that will convince you, you're either a hard core GZ is guilty guy or you just plain like to argue.

I'm convinced that some people, shown a movie of events transpiring the way Zimmerman describes, with camera angles covering all the relevant angles and microphones capturing every word uttered, would still find him guilty.  He got out of the truck.

All the room for conjecture about the fight just increases the number of angles for condemning Zimmerman.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 18, 2012, 08:48:31 PM
The part I don't understand (and this isn't related to the screaming but is sort of related to your post) is the people who post here who say 'look how George changed his story!'
So they give us the examples. Here he said he was hit and fell down. Then the next time he says he fell down right after he was hit...see! It's not the same story!

I don't get it. I read those examples and okay, they aren't word for word, but it's the same thing. He got hit in the face and fell on his tuchas.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2012, 08:50:20 PM
I'm convinced that some people, shown a movie of events transpiring the way Zimmerman describes, with camera angles covering all the relevant angles and microphones capturing every word uttered, would still find him guilty.  He got out of the truck.


Does Corey post here?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 18, 2012, 09:08:58 PM
The part I don't understand (and this isn't related to the screaming but is sort of related to your post) is the people who post here who say 'look how George changed his story!'
So they give us the examples. Here he said he was hit and fell down. Then the next time he says he fell down right after he was hit...see! It's not the same story!

I don't get it. I read those examples and okay, they aren't word for word, but it's the same thing. He got hit in the face and fell on his tuchas.

When issuing multiple statements the likely hood of a discrepancy increased factorially with the number of statements. compare  1 vs 2 , 2 vs 3 1 vs 3 etc.

That's why I think its important that the GZ team construct a detailed timeline using all the available material.

They can present the model with a forensic evidence expert ( No George required). After that they only need to deal with any presumed discrepancies between one  statement and the master model.

Otherwise they potentially need to with lot of presumed discrepancies between one statement and all other statements.

Then again is questionable if the statements will even be introduced. The prosecution says they will force the defense to introduce the evidence. I wonder what they plan to present?

BTW my spell checker has some problems with tuchas  :D


Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: unitron on July 18, 2012, 09:13:33 PM
The part I don't understand (and this isn't related to the screaming but is sort of related to your post) is the people who post here who say 'look how George changed his story!'
So they give us the examples. Here he said he was hit and fell down. Then the next time he says he fell down right after he was hit...see! It's not the same story!

I don't get it. I read those examples and okay, they aren't word for word, but it's the same thing. He got hit in the face and fell on his tuchas.

Except for the next day re-enactment where he gets hit and stumbles around for a while and only winds up on the ground after traveling 30 some feet south of where he got hit.

It's not exactly the same.

Perhaps inconsistencies are understandable under the circumstances, but they are still inconsistencies.

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on July 18, 2012, 09:36:57 PM
From the interview with Hannity:

Quote
HANNITY: And he said those words? And he said it -- when did he first see your gun?

ZIMMERMAN: After we were on the ground, I shimmied with him on top of me, and it made my jacket rise up. He, being on top of me, saw it on my right side.

HANNITY: What happened after that?

ZIMMERMAN: I felt him take -- he had -- after he couldn't hit my head on the concrete anymore, he started to try to suffocate me. And I continued to take -- push his hands off of my mouth and my nose, particularly because it was excruciating having a broken nose and him putting his weight on it.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity?page=4#ixzz212H4iNmN

In an earlier interview, Zimmerman said Martin was about to bang his head into the concrete again before he fired.  Can anybody hear any of this description of the smothering in the screams just before the shot?  Also, apparently Zimmerman didn't do that good a job of scratching Martin's hands in trying to get them off his mouth.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 18, 2012, 10:21:58 PM
From the interview with Hannity:

In an earlier interview, Zimmerman said Martin was about to bang his head into the concrete again before he fired.  Can anybody hear any of this description of the smothering in the screams just before the shot?  Also, apparently Zimmerman didn't do that good a job of scratching Martin's hands in trying to get them off his mouth.

He said he was trying to  push TM's hands off of his face.  Where do you get "scratching" from?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 18, 2012, 11:12:01 PM
Sounds like you've been fortunate to live a very sheltered, uneventful life.
Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick.

If you only knew.

In an earlier interview, Zimmerman said Martin was about to bang his head into the concrete again before he fired.  Can anybody hear any of this description of the smothering in the screams just before the shot? 
Yes, he says this in one of the interviews, but I think he will probably try to walk this one back. It's pretty hard to slam someone's head into the cement when a) I thought TM was going for the gun, and b) one of TM's arms was pinned, remember?

In the Hannity interview he's punched more than a dozen times. Boy, his face is in pretty good shape.

And nothing to do with the case, but....if I had shot an unarmed, obviously not-about-to-rape-and-pillage-the-neighborhood 17yr old kid, regardless of why I ended up pulling the trigger...wouldn't you feel sorry for the chain of events? If he doesn't get out of the car, both guys end up going home. I don't get how he can say he doesn't regret getting out of the car. A kid ended up dead.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: dragon ash on July 18, 2012, 11:37:58 PM
DebFrmHell - damn, sounds like you went through a right ordeal.  Looks like you got through to the other side, which I'm glad of.

When you were attacked - that's a really traumatic experience. Hyperventilating, adrenaline rush, lingering and residue shock/fear - that doesn't go away quickly does it?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 19, 2012, 12:02:59 AM
DebFrmHell - damn, sounds like you went through a right ordeal.  Looks like you got through to the other side, which I'm glad of.

When you were attacked - that's a really traumatic experience. Hyperventilating, adrenaline rush, lingering and residue shock/fear - that doesn't go away quickly does it?
I can honestly say the memory of the circumstances never goes away. The details of getting my arse kicked, well, I was never really up to speed on but from what others told me.    I don't recall hyperventilating at all, out of breath yes, since they were quite physical.  I don't remembering screaming out either.  Getting beat up is an adrenaline rush only because of the fear.  Take away the fear and you settle.  Frankly,  I think shock took over.  I remember crying later.  Pity Party.  (That cost me points in my personal values code!)  I hate crying.

I hope I answered your questions but I think we should drop this.  Jeralyn gets upset when things get too personal.  And we are way off topic.



Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on July 19, 2012, 06:26:01 AM
He said he was trying to  push TM's hands off of his face.  Where do you get "scratching" from?

You would expect scratches on Martin's hands if Zimmerman was pushing his fingertips under Martin's hands in order to get them off his face.  How else could you get them off?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 19, 2012, 06:38:00 AM
You would expect scratches on Martin's hands if Zimmerman was pushing his fingertips under Martin's hands in order to get them off his face.  How else could you get them off?

Trying to deflect by moving/pushing up on the wrists would be one way. There are many other ways. As the saying goes "there's more than one way to skin a cat."
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2012, 06:54:57 AM
You would expect scratches on Martin's hands if Zimmerman was pushing his fingertips under Martin's hands in order to get them off his face.  How else could you get them off?

Maybe you'd expect scratches. Then again, maybe you wear your nails longer than George?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2012, 06:56:50 AM

I hope I answered your questions but I think we should drop this.  Jeralyn gets upset when things get too personal.  And we are way off topic.

You're quite right about it, but perhaps it's helpful for people to hear about experiences and reactions?

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: leftwig on July 19, 2012, 06:59:06 AM
Everybody reacts differently.  If I'm taking a beating, and more or less panicked, I stop screaming the instant the attacker gets off me.  And if I've got a massive force advantage (gun in the hand) I'm past the point of screaming for help and at the point of acting, watching, and self-help.  I don't need help anymore - it's too late for that.  Once the fear of death passes, the calculus changes again.  I think all that "adjustment" can happen in realtime - seconds, if not fractions of a second.

I was about to post something similar when I read this statement.  The only thing I was going to add was that Z had been screaming for at least 40 seconds, probably closer to 60 seconds and no one had come to help.  He had just got done pleading to John for help, but he went back inside.  Z's previous screams didn't seem to bring any help, so I'm guessing he was in self help mode by that point. 

I'm not sure I'd actually think anything right after the shot as I'd be in reaction mode, but if the guy who had been assaulting me got off me for any reason, the first thing I would do is get up, then try to make sure he stayed down and didn't have a weapon.  I then would probably call for help.  It seems like this is about the time that the first witness on the scene came around the corner.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: ding7777 on July 19, 2012, 11:25:02 AM
DebFrmHell - damn, sounds like you went through a right ordeal.  Looks like you got through to the other side, which I'm glad of.

When you were attacked - that's a really traumatic experience. Hyperventilating, adrenaline rush, lingering and residue shock/fear - that doesn't go away quickly does it?

isn't that what the defense is claiming - GZ's attack was a traumatic experience and GZ was in fear of his life?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 19, 2012, 11:29:23 AM
You would expect scratches on Martin's hands if Zimmerman was pushing his fingertips under Martin's hands in order to get them off his face.  How else could you get them off?

Block or slap them off. Much easier than trying to lift them off.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: leftwig on July 19, 2012, 11:32:07 AM
Block or slap them off. Much easier than trying to lift them off.

Grab their wrist and push or pull and move your head the opposite direction would be the way self defense classes would teach it.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on July 19, 2012, 11:49:35 AM
Grab their wrist and push or pull and move your head the opposite direction would be the way self defense classes would teach it.
I agree anything that will move the hands laterally is easier. While Zimmerman could try to grab a (clothed?) wrist I doubt that anyone in his position could maintain that wrist hold unless they were significantly stronger than their assailant.  He very limited freedom of motion; had movement to the side is very restricted.
After a minute of fighting, Zimmerman must be in a bad position. He can delay the inevitable but his strength has got to be almost drained.

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 19, 2012, 12:29:40 PM

After a minute of fighting, Zimmerman must be in a bad position. He can delay the inevitable but his strength has got to be almost drained.

An excellent point often overlooked. And once his strength is gone and he can't keep Trayvon off of him, what then?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 19, 2012, 10:16:15 PM
It's a different word being screamed, but by the same person*. The word being screamed at the end isn't "help" .. it is "stop." You can verify this by "reading" the spectrograph of the audio (if you aren't experienced in reading it you probably won't be able to, and I really don't have the time to explain it, maybe some audio analyst out there somewhere has already done the reading and typed it up on their blog somewhere).

"By the same person" is my opinion, which I posted reasoning for elsewhere in these forums.

Just a follow up to this post. It was pointed out to me that a forensic audio specialist did review this call and came to the same conclusion that I did regarding the "stop." He also says he hears "Martin" yelling "I'm begging you" but I haven't reached this conclusion myself (to be honest, I haven't looked into it yet either.. but I will, and I suspect he'll be correct about the words). You can find his detailed analysis and an explanation of how to read a spectrograph here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trayvon-martin-case-911-call-two-experts-reach-two-much-different-conclusions/2012/05/19/gIQAtuapbU_story.html

* He doesn't really explain -how- to read it, but he does show a comparison between "help" and "stop"
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on July 19, 2012, 11:48:20 PM
Just a follow up to this post. It was pointed out to me that a forensic audio specialist did review this call and came to the same conclusion that I did regarding the "stop." He also says he hears "Martin" yelling "I'm begging you" but I haven't reached this conclusion myself (to be honest, I haven't looked into it yet either.. but I will, and I suspect he'll be correct about the words). You can find his detailed analysis and an explanation of how to read a spectrograph here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trayvon-martin-case-911-call-two-experts-reach-two-much-different-conclusions/2012/05/19/gIQAtuapbU_story.html

* He doesn't really explain -how- to read it, but he does show a comparison between "help" and "stop"

I am kind of skeptical about his report.  He is determining the age of the two gentlemen. but he doesn't say anything about how the airway to Zimmerman's nose could be compromised.  Pinch your nose shut, partially at the bridge, and speak out loud.  Your voice quality changes.  There is also the fact that Trayvon's voice is probably deeper since he is over sixteen. 

I wonder why the family hasn't come forth with any recorded video of TM.  I find it hard to believe that there is nothing that they have in their possession, some film clip on a cell or a video, something that is relatively current.  If they don't have something, maybe one of his friends?  IDK.

I just don't understand how he can determine the voices and the age. 

He is definitely using GZ's voice on the NEN for comparison but his voice is relatively calm in the NEN.  He is not in any altercation during that time.  Certainly not a life or death struggle as the end of the 911.

Every word that he has attributed to Trayvon Martin could easily becoming out of George Zimmerman/s mouth, IMO. 

It is a very interesting article.  Thanks for bringing it in.  It gives me a good idea about the dueling experts that will be involved in this case.  I wish I could hear it.   Computer is half-arsed broken, files corrupted, a mess...  I am grateful just to still have the net!



Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 19, 2012, 11:56:47 PM
I am kind of skeptical about his report.  He is determining the age of the two gentlemen. but he doesn't say anything about how the airway to Zimmerman's nose could be compromised.  Pinch your nose shut, partially at the bridge, and speak out loud.  Your voice quality changes.  There is also the fact that Trayvon's voice is probably deeper since he is over sixteen. 

Yeah, I wasn't showing it for that analysis - specifically just the spectrograph information since I don't have the time to sit down and explain all that - in fact, all I read from it was the comparison between the "help" and "stop" - where he's showing the difference between the words themselves. As for the "plug your nose" thing - that's true to -some- degree, but it's not always true. Take for example the two words "help" and "stop." Your nose doesn't play nearly as much a part when you compare them to other words, like "no." I still haven't looked at the "I'm begging you" but that should definitely have a bit to do with the nasal passage being blocked.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: MJW on July 20, 2012, 12:36:08 AM
An interesting aspect of the article is this:
Quote
Reich is almost certain he hears this voice shout “What the f---” at 7:16:48. At different points in the recording, Reich said, the voice he believes is Zimmerman’s comes in short, assertive bursts of language in which the words are not clear but the tone and rhythm are.

According to the article:
Quote
And at 7:16:11, a woman’s 911 call began recording the sounds.

7:16:48 - 7:16:11 =  37

Whoa! I said earlier in this thread:
Quote
I assume if it's true, someone else has noticed it, but when I open the scream 911 call in Audacity and select the region from 36.811 to 37.787 (typing it in, using seconds and millisecond format), I think I can hear words being spoken.  I'm not certain what they are, and I won't say what I think they might be in order not to influence anyone else who wants to try it.

Now that I find an expert (or at least a supposed expert) also thinks there's something there, I'll reveal what I think I hear.  It isn't “What the f---," it's either "No f---ing..." or "Yo' f---ing..."  (the end is talked over).  I make no claims that that's actually what's said, or that anything is said.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: AJ on July 20, 2012, 01:21:15 AM
I disagree with Mr. Reich on the "I'm begging you" - what he's listening to is much closer to the caller than the screamer in the background, probably the male she's speaking to later. You can hear both that sound and the scream at the same time and it's clear that one is MUCH closer than the other. I also disagree with the "What the f---" - he's listening to a scream that interrupted by talking over it. Looking at the signature in the spectrograph shows that it's similar to the other screams for "help" (but not the "stop"). You can hear the full scream in-between the words of the dispatcher and starting at the 36.290 mark.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: MJW on July 20, 2012, 01:57:59 AM
At 36.29, I hear the male 911 caller say what sounds something like -- I can't understand him at all -- "You need to call the cops!" spoken very quickly and percussively (and oddly, in a similar manner to the supposed "I'm begging you!").  The interval between that and the 911 operator talking sounds to me nothing like "Help!" or "Help me!" or a scream.  I hear three distinct syllables.  Perhaps it's my imagination, but that's what I hear.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: ding7777 on July 20, 2012, 07:36:24 AM
Has anyone fed the call using a voice-to-text app? (dragon dictation, google voice, siri)
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Schnapps on August 11, 2012, 07:08:42 PM
Didn't see this issue discussed in this thread. But was the Sanford PD's voice exemplar of GZ yelling Help! (http://soundcloud.com/producermatthew/state-v-zimmerman-voice) discussed elsewhere? Or if it was posted elsewhere, would someone link it for me? TIA.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on August 11, 2012, 07:42:58 PM
Didn't see this issue discussed in this thread. But was the Sanford PD's voice exemplar of GZ yelling Help! (http://soundcloud.com/producermatthew/state-v-zimmerman-voice) discussed elsewhere? Or if it was posted elsewhere, would someone link it for me? TIA.

I remember this subject being broached on the main thread AFAIK the results were not significant either way.

 Why do you think that Trayvon would be screaming for help? Can you explain why his father could not identify the screams as belonging to Trayvon?

Why does the Martin family refuse to make recent examples of TM's voice public?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Schnapps on August 11, 2012, 09:32:55 PM
I remember this subject being broached on the main thread AFAIK the results were not significant either way.

 Why do you think that Trayvon would be screaming for help? Can you explain why his father could not identify the screams as belonging to Trayvon?

Why does the Martin family refuse to make recent examples of TM's voice public?

I'll read that main thread before I reply here.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on September 23, 2012, 12:54:09 AM
I was going through the Altemonte Medical report for Zimmerman and something struck me.  He was complaining about tonsil  stones.  I never heard of them but a search says that they are aggrevated by breathing through the mouth.  He had a broken nose so this could account for that but it got me to wondering if all of the yelling could be a contributing factor in that aggrevation of the stones.

Not a lawyer or a doctor!

Altemonte Family Practice Fax (http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2012/07/03/15/01/2uxIe.So.56.pdf)
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: turbo6 on September 25, 2012, 06:52:31 PM
Its interesting the Physicians Assistant made note of the details of the altercation and how Zimmerman was licensed to carry a gun and fatally shot his assailant. I suppose when addressing his mental health its important to know these things, but she's a PA, not a psych doctor.

I'm guessing she didn't further interject any medical opinion about the assault because she found it to be plausible from her stand point. One would think based on the detail Zimmerman described if she found the injuries to be "mild" or "inconsistent" she would have likely noted it.

As far as the screaming I still see no viable reason why Trayvon Martin would have been the one doing it. Aside from the single fatal shot, there's no scratches (aside from the finger), bruises or anything to indicate GZ even got a blow in. So obviously Zimmerman physically hurting him is discounted.

The gun coming into play is really the only way I can imagine Martin yelling for help. However, W6 dispels any notion that GZ may have been on top of Martin waving a gun around for 30 seconds while he screamed. DNA has basically ruled out any probability that the two actually grappled for control of the gun, and Zimmerman himself never alleged that anyway. Based on everything out there now, it seems unlikely Martin was screaming.

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: unitron on September 25, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
I don't know who was yelling, but I don't consider it entirely impossible that Martin was calling for help to get out of the fight.  At this point we don't know how he felt about being in fights, or risking getting hurt or risking hurting someone else.

I consider other explanations possible as well, but I think that one deserves consideration.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on September 25, 2012, 08:16:53 PM
I don't know who was yelling, but I don't consider it entirely impossible that Martin was calling for help to get out of the fight.

That would be pertinent if Martin were on trial.

I see this point going to Zimmerman by overwhelming preponderance of the evidence.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Kyreth on September 25, 2012, 08:40:47 PM
 Each person's family says it's their guy screaming so that will be in equipoise, but considering the number of people who indicated the screams sounded like someone in pain, and there was only one individual taking injury concurrent with the screams; I think that will fall in George's favor.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on September 25, 2012, 08:59:38 PM
I don't know who was yelling, but I don't consider it entirely impossible that Martin was calling for help to get out of the fight.  At this point we don't know how he felt about being in fights, or risking getting hurt or risking hurting someone else.

I consider other explanations possible as well, but I think that one deserves consideration.

This is an article by Steve Cain regarding how the FBI's Signal Analysis Branch works and the criteria that is set.

Verifying The Integrity Of Audio And Videotapes (http://expertpages.com/news/verifying_integrity.htm)

In a nutshell:

   
Quote
The examination process normally includes both an aural, physical, and instrumental analysis of the evidential tape. Phase continuity, speed determination, azimuth determination, waveform analysis, spectrographic and narrow band spectrographic analysis are among the techniques employed to evaluate the tape.


We do have a good idea of the testing that went on within their lab. They couldn't determine who was actually doing the "Help" cries.

From Discovery, they issued four reasons:
1) Produced under an extreme emotional state
2) Limited in the number of words and phrases uttered
3) Superimposed by other voices most of the time
4) Distant, reverberant and low signal quality


And whether the screams are GZ or TM is of no consequence to me. Both sides say it was their guy doing the yelling. I think a judge or jury will have to kind of chalk it up to "family" and move past their input since the FBI couldn't make any determination due to the quality of the recording.  IMO, the FBI will be the determining factor in that debate. A judge or jury should have less of an emotional attachment to the case.

Take away the yelling for help and you have two guys in an altercation. One has injuries from said altercation. One doesn't show any defensive wounds. Not so much as a bruise. And then there is the abrasion near a knuckle on the ring finger.

((I am doing a CCP on myself because I am too lazy too retype several posts in another place))




Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: unitron on September 26, 2012, 08:29:14 AM
This is an article by Steve Cain regarding how the FBI's Signal Analysis Branch works and the criteria that is set.

Verifying The Integrity Of Audio And Videotapes (http://expertpages.com/news/verifying_integrity.htm)

In a nutshell:

   

We do have a good idea of the testing that went on within their lab. They couldn't determine who was actually doing the "Help" cries.

From Discovery, they issued four reasons:
1) Produced under an extreme emotional state
2) Limited in the number of words and phrases uttered
3) Superimposed by other voices most of the time
4) Distant, reverberant and low signal quality


And whether the screams are GZ or TM is of no consequence to me. Both sides say it was their guy doing the yelling. I think a judge or jury will have to kind of chalk it up to "family" and move past their input since the FBI couldn't make any determination due to the quality of the recording.  IMO, the FBI will be the determining factor in that debate. A judge or jury should have less of an emotional attachment to the case.

Take away the yelling for help and you have two guys in an altercation. One has injuries from said altercation. One doesn't show any defensive wounds. Not so much as a bruise. And then there is the abrasion near a knuckle on the ring finger.

((I am doing a CCP on myself because I am too lazy too retype several posts in another place))

"One has injuries from said altercation. One doesn't show any defensive wounds. Not so much as a bruise."

That's all the same person.  George Zimmerman.

Yeah, I know you meant Martin about the defensive wounds, but neither had any.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on September 26, 2012, 08:35:05 AM
The argument most people who believe it is Martin screaming use is that the screams end abruptly with the shot.  They seem to think there is a Newton's first law for screams which would keep them going for a while after the shot, if they had been from Zimmerman. ::)  I myself, am not sure.  If what was going on mostly during the fight was Martin's efforts to prevent Zimmerman from aiming the gun at him, I can imagine it being the former screaming.  However, in the land of reasonable doubt, it certainly could be Zimmerman screaming which means he is not guilty.  The screams alone show the source was in fear of death or great bodily harm.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on September 26, 2012, 09:42:35 AM
"One has injuries from said altercation. One doesn't show any defensive wounds. Not so much as a bruise."

That's all the same person.  George Zimmerman.

Yeah, I know you meant Martin about the defensive wounds, but neither had any.

Thanks.  But to my limited knowledge Zimmerman was never photographed without his jacket on so his arms were never exposed to see if he had any bumps or bruises on his forearms or even elbows since he kept trying to rise up.  We only know his hands were unscathed.   I would have like to have seen them do that for clarification.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on September 26, 2012, 09:43:02 AM
I don't know who was yelling, but I don't consider it entirely impossible that Martin was calling for help to get out of the fight.  At this point we don't know how he felt about being in fights, or risking getting hurt or risking hurting someone else.

I consider other explanations possible as well, but I think that one deserves consideration.

heh.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on September 26, 2012, 09:45:26 AM
. And then there is the abrasion near a knuckle on the ring finger.


Funny, a couple of weeks ago I was wrong when I mentioned the abrasion near the knuckle (between the first and middle, going from the hand to fingertip).

Abrasions on what would be the flat surface of the fist following an altercation where someone's face gets dinged up and their nose gets broken--means something.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on September 26, 2012, 09:53:41 AM
Funny, a couple of weeks ago I was wrong when I mentioned the abrasion near the knuckle (between the first and middle, going from the hand to fingertip).

Abrasions on what would be the flat surface of the fist following an altercation where someone's face gets dinged up and their nose gets broken--means something.

Honestly, I think the abrasion came from contact with the sidewalk but whatever.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: annoyedbeyond on September 26, 2012, 10:35:42 AM
Honestly, I think the abrasion came from contact with the sidewalk but whatever.

So why did you list it in your list?

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Kyreth on September 26, 2012, 12:38:34 PM
So why did you list it in your list?

Maybe for sake of thoroughness. =)
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on September 26, 2012, 02:27:12 PM
But to my limited knowledge Zimmerman was never photographed without his jacket on so his arms were never exposed to see if he had any bumps or bruises on his forearms or even elbows since he kept trying to rise up.

I think Serino showed Zimmerman some photos of his bare arms in his last SPD interview.

2/29-1, 12:07-15
Quote
Serino: OK. You never got a chance to hit him. You have no defensive wounds here. Any bruising on your body at all? Anything?

Zimmerman: No.

2/29-1, 16:12-23
Quote
Serino: Once again, these are your defensive wounds, which are essentially nonexistent. I'm looking for bruising and scrapings, and I know [unintelligible]. I mean, you fared pretty well, probably because you had long sleeves on. I mean, that's what I'm thinking. I can wave that off pretty easy.

Throughout part 1 of the 2/29 interview, Serino was calling Zimmerman's attention to visuals, and there are rustling sounds like someone going through a stack of photos. Serino talked in this way about Martin's wounds, both the fatal and the minor one, Martin's face, Martin's phone, and Zimmerman's ex.

After the above there was an abrupt transition to talking about Zimmerman's ex, again suggesting that Serino was going through a stack of photos.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on September 26, 2012, 03:36:49 PM
I think Serino showed Zimmerman some photos of his bare arms in his last SPD interview.

2/29-1, 12:07-15
2/29-1, 16:12-23
Throughout part 1 of the 2/29 interview, Serino was calling Zimmerman's attention to visuals, and there are rustling sounds like someone going through a stack of photos. Serino talked in this way about Martin's wounds, both the fatal and the minor one, Martin's face, Martin's phone, and Zimmerman's ex.

After the above there was an abrupt transition to talking about Zimmerman's ex, again suggesting that Serino was going through a stack of photos.

Thanks for explaining rustling sounds.  I cannot get much in the way of audio/video.  If it is a WAV file, I can't get that at all.  I think I just listened to one that wasn't wav that was posted by txanti so I will have to go back and listen some more an harder! 

The only pictures I specifically remember Serino showing Zimmerman were that of Trayvon Martin in situ.

But then, where are those pictures?  Why aren't they released?  Aren't there over 300 photos to date combining the ones from FDLE and SPD?  I think there were over 100 alone that SPD took.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on September 26, 2012, 11:04:55 PM
Throughout part 1 of the 2/29 interview, Serino was calling Zimmerman's attention to visuals

I shouldn't have relied on a hazy recollection. They went through all the photos in about seven minutes, early in the session. I've posted a list as the start of a new thread. (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2197.msg102920.html#msg102920)
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on October 16, 2012, 09:32:12 PM
Has anyone brought this up previously?  Starting at 38 minutes in of John's (Witness #6) FDLE interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUvBZicWPDE&feature=youtube), he gives the best evidence I have heard to date about who was screaming. He says that with Martin and Zimmerman perpendicular to him, with Martin on the top and Zimmerman on the bottom, so that Martin was facing away from him, he heard a very clear direct "help!" that did not sound like an echo off the town houses across the dogwalk, which is what you would expect if Martin was yelling.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: MJW on October 16, 2012, 09:48:00 PM
He says that with Martin and Zimmerman perpendicular to him, with Martin on the top and Zimmerman on the bottom, so that Martin was facing away from him, he heard a very clear direct "help!" that did not sound like an echo off the town houses across the dogwalk, which is what you would expect if Martin was yelling.

I agree with your point, but wanted to mention that the way you state this is a bit ambiguous. The phrase "which is what you would expect if Martin was yelling" could either refer to "he heard a very clear direct 'help!'" or to "did not sound like an echo." Obviously from John's comments, it meant that if Martin had been yelling, it would not have been a clear, direct "help!"
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on October 16, 2012, 10:24:09 PM
Yes MJW, thanks.  It is unclear what the last phrase modifies.  :-[  I should have turned it into a new sentence, "The latter is what you would expect if Martin was the one yelling".
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on October 17, 2012, 07:06:15 AM
My record in being able to contact people in this case is not good, so can somebody contact O'Mara to suggest he try to see if it is really possible to tell the difference between yells from a person facing W#6's house versus facing the other side?  I am surprised that SPD or FDLE didn't perform this test since one of them got Zimmerman to yell "help!" repeatedly in an unsuccessful attempt at voice comparison with the poor quality 9/11 yells.   It would be even better if they could get W#6 and or Zimmerman to participate.  This is very low tech science but as evidence it would be very powerful.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on October 18, 2012, 07:12:48 AM
I actually left a comment on the GZlegalcase.com website, suggesting that they look into checking W#6's ability to tell who is screaming by noticing whether or not there was an echo present.  I got this reply:

Quote
We obviously cannot publish your comment because it so specifically addresses evidence; however, I've forwarded your message to the research team.  Thank you for sharing.
-Shawn

Has anybody seen this issue discussed before anywhere?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on October 18, 2012, 07:24:20 AM
Has anybody seen this issue discussed before anywhere?

I think it was mentioned on the blog when the audios were released.

I don't think it's a big deal. It's W-6's non-expert opinion, which probably won't be admissible.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on October 18, 2012, 07:44:31 AM
He wouldn't be able to detect an echo?  I think it would be admissible provided an expert first testified that one could tell the difference in that location under the weather conditions that evening.  What I don't think will be admissible are the many identifications from relatives as to the source of the screams.  Anyway, why would either side bother to try to get them in?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: leftwig on October 18, 2012, 07:53:43 AM
I didn't realize it would be considered expert testimony to be able to say whether you recognize the voice calling for help was someone facing you and not looking away from you.  Would this mean that no one (except George) will be able to testify to who is screaming in the 911 calls since the experts have said it can't be distinguished from the recording?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Cylinder on October 18, 2012, 09:52:13 AM
Also recall that in his nterview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfN7-2ErEk4) with the local Fox station the afternoon after the shooting, W6 asserts that "the guy on the bottom who I beleive had a red sweater on was yelling to me help, help." Zimmerman has also claimed that he was yelling directly to W6 for help.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on October 18, 2012, 10:05:37 AM
Also recall that in his nterview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfN7-2ErEk4) with the local Fox station the afternoon after the shooting, W6 asserts that "the guy on the bottom who I beleive had a red sweater on was yelling to me help, help." Zimmerman has also claimed that he was yelling directly to W6 for help.

Early in his FDLE interview W#6 says that he just assumed the guy on the bottom would be the one yelling but he never could see his mouth move.  Late in the interview he gave the echo explanation for his judgment.  So a cross examiner might be able to do some impeachment here.  That is why I think the defense should do some testing to see just how obvious an effect this is.  Does anybody know if W#6 still lives there?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on October 18, 2012, 11:01:25 AM
Also recall that in his nterview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfN7-2ErEk4) with the local Fox station the afternoon after the shooting, W6 asserts that "the guy on the bottom who I believe had a red sweater on was yelling to me help, help." Zimmerman has also claimed that he was yelling directly to W6 for help.

pg. 23 of the 284 (http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf)
O'Steen interview with Smith.

Quote
Smith handcuffed Zimmerman for safety reasons.  Zimmerman uttered "I was yelling for help but no one would help me."  Zimmerman complained that he had a headache and that his head was hurting.  Rescue checked Zimmerman at the scene.

The order is a little different from the original write up by Smith, IIRC.  In that one, Smith said that he overheard Zimmerman tell EMTs that he was yelling for help and no one would help him.  I tried to find the page number but my eyes glazed...sorry.

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: FromBelow on October 18, 2012, 12:32:15 PM
Early in his FDLE interview W#6 says that he just assumed the guy on the bottom would be the one yelling but he never could see his mouth move.

That's a reasonable thing to think. I've never seen a fight where the guy on top was yelling for help. Has anyone?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Lousy1 on October 18, 2012, 01:15:50 PM
Recreating the scene acoustically and having Zimmerman scream for John could lead to interesting results.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on October 18, 2012, 01:20:18 PM
That's a reasonable thing to think. I've never seen a fight where the guy on top was yelling for help. Has anyone?

 ;D  I certainly haven't but there are internet discussion groups and blogs of people claiming that happened here.  Or else they denounce W#6 as being a liar who has recanted his testimony 10 times or is mistaken.  I think they suggest that Martin could be screaming for his Mom (yes, I have seen people claiming they hear that  :o) while trying to pin Zimmerman's hand with the gun down.  BDLR may come up with stuff along the aforementioned lines at tomorrow's hearing.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: DebFrmHell on October 18, 2012, 03:47:36 PM
;D  I certainly haven't but there are internet discussion groups and blogs of people claiming that happened here.  Or else they denounce W#6 as being a liar who has recanted his testimony 10 times or is mistaken.  I think they suggest that Martin could be screaming for his Mom (yes, I have seen people claiming they hear that  :o) while trying to pin Zimmerman's hand with the gun down.  BDLR may come up with stuff along the aforementioned lines at tomorrow's hearing.

Since I think this will get deleted, along with yours for being too gossipy, I will have to add....

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

They gotz better ears and equipment than the FBI, yanno? 

I have to work tomorrow so I am hoping for video links.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on October 19, 2012, 02:33:55 AM
Has anybody seen this issue discussed before anywhere?

Redbrow (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2059.msg95939.html#msg95939) mentioned it briefly, earlier in this thread.

I checked the blog and didn't find anything. Redbrow's comment may have been what I was thinking of.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: unitron on October 19, 2012, 06:08:56 PM
Has anyone brought this up previously?  Starting at 38 minutes in of John's (Witness #6) FDLE interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUvBZicWPDE&feature=youtube), he gives the best evidence I have heard to date about who was screaming. He says that with Martin and Zimmerman perpendicular to him, with Martin on the top and Zimmerman on the bottom, so that Martin was facing away from him, he heard a very clear direct "help!" that did not sound like an echo off the town houses across the dogwalk, which is what you would expect if Martin was yelling.

The human voice, in free air, is not a laser beam.  It (or rather the acoustic wave form it causes, the compression and rarefaction of the medium, in this case the atmosphere) spreads out from the point source in all directions.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on October 20, 2012, 07:30:03 AM
The human voice, in free air, is not a laser beam.  It (or rather the acoustic wave form it causes, the compression and rarefaction of the medium, in this case the atmosphere) spreads out from the point source in all directions.

Yes, but doesn't mean that the acoustic waves received by somebody standing where W#6 was won't differ depending on whether the screamer was facing the houses on the other side or W#6.  In the former case, the reflected components should have a higher amplitude leading to a much more noticeable echo.  Of course this should be tested before an attempt is made to introduce it as evidence.  I have a hunch that W#6's opinion came from his own experience, hearing his own echo when shouting to his neighbor across the dog walk.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Evil Chinchilla on October 20, 2012, 01:26:59 PM
Yes, but doesn't mean that the acoustic waves received by somebody standing where W#6 was won't differ depending on whether the screamer was facing the houses on the other side or W#6.  In the former case, the reflected components should have a higher amplitude leading to a much more noticeable echo.  Of course this should be tested before an attempt is made to introduce it as evidence.  I have a hunch that W#6's opinion came from his own experience, hearing his own echo when shouting to his neighbor across the dog walk.
If GZ was on his back at the time of the screaming, wouldn't he be mainly facing the sky rather than either W6's house or the house opposite? It seems like this would make the sound of the voice of the person in this position even less echo-y than a person facing either row of houses.

But just like IANAL, I am also not a sound expert.

However, I agree about the logic of W6's potential familiarity of hearing his own voice echo in various positions in that area between the townhouses and not recognizing that quality in the calls for help, thus being confident it was the person on the bottom screaming even though he couldn't see mouths.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: unitron on October 20, 2012, 02:16:12 PM
Yes, but doesn't mean that the acoustic waves received by somebody standing where W#6 was won't differ depending on whether the screamer was facing the houses on the other side or W#6.  In the former case, the reflected components should have a higher amplitude leading to a much more noticeable echo.  Of course this should be tested before an attempt is made to introduce it as evidence.  I have a hunch that W#6's opinion came from his own experience, hearing his own echo when shouting to his neighbor across the dog walk.

Both parties were facing each other more than either was facing anyone or anything else other than the ground or the sky, so acoustic energy from either of them traveling parallel to the ground would be roughly the same in all compass directions.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on October 20, 2012, 04:04:24 PM
Both parties were facing each other more than either was facing anyone or anything else other than the ground or the sky, so acoustic energy from either of them traveling parallel to the ground would be roughly the same in all compass directions.

He is describing just one of the "helps!" with Martin on top, straddling Zimmerman and facing the houses across the walk and Zimmerman facing in W#6's direction.  A claim that there would be no difference in the received sounds produced from each position goes against common experience and apparently W#6's experience from living there.  Are you arguing it isn't worth checking out?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: unitron on October 23, 2012, 02:20:13 PM
He is describing just one of the "helps!" with Martin on top, straddling Zimmerman and facing the houses across the walk and Zimmerman facing in W#6's direction.  A claim that there would be no difference in the received sounds produced from each position goes against common experience and apparently W#6's experience from living there.  Are you arguing it isn't worth checking out?

I'd love to see it actually tested instead of people just making assumptions.

Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: MJW on December 03, 2012, 01:35:38 PM
In a motion (http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/1112/motion_to_take_additional_deposition.pdf) by O'Mara asking for a second deposition of police investigator William Erwin, the defense says Erwin was a witness to Tracy Martin telling Serino that the screams in the 911 call are not Trayvon's.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: FromBelow on May 05, 2013, 08:01:11 PM
Apparently MOM is going to try and disallow any experts from testifying about who is screaming. Apparently the experts have differing opinions even within both camps. He suggests just letting the jury decide. This is apparently the big hearing he was talking about during the April 30th hearing.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/04/30/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-cries-help
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: MJW on May 05, 2013, 08:16:02 PM
Apparently MOM is going to try and disallow any experts from testifying about who is screaming.

I wasn't quite certain if he was saying no experts, or no anybody.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: FromBelow on May 05, 2013, 08:26:23 PM
I wasn't quite certain if he was saying no experts, or no anybody.

Maybe he'll try to exclude all witnesses.

His last statement in that clip seems to suggest he thinks excluding witness (expert) testimony is a done deal. "We seem like we're not going to have experts on either side." Maybe defense and state have discussed the issue? Maybe he's just confident? Although if state and defense have discussed it and are in agreement I can't imagine why there needs to be a big hearing about it.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: MJW on May 05, 2013, 08:45:10 PM
It's difficult to see what the jury would learn by having a bunch of Martin's friends and family insisting it was Martin, and a bunch of Zimmerman's friends and family insisting it was Zimmerman. How could they weigh such evidence?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on May 05, 2013, 08:52:01 PM
Apparently MOM is going to try and disallow any experts from testifying about who is screaming. Apparently the experts have differing opinions even within both camps. He suggests just letting the jury decide. This is apparently the big hearing he was talking about during the April 30th hearing.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2013/04/30/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-cries-help
I couldn't tell if O'mara was telling the truth in the interview.  I find it hard to believe he is surprised that a bunch of "experts" offering opinions on the identity of the screamer can't come to a consensus.  The way I read the FBI report by Dr. Nakasone on the tape, anybody who claims they can scientifically specify who is screaming from the tape evidence alone is a fraud.   

I told O'Mara a long while ago that he should have an expert check if there was a distinct echo to differentiate somebody screaming while facing the houses across the walk from W #6's lawn from somebody facing W #6.  I have no idea whether or not he followed up on that.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on May 06, 2013, 03:03:02 AM
It's difficult to see what the jury would learn by having a bunch of Martin's friends and family insisting it was Martin, and a bunch of Zimmerman's friends and family insisting it was Zimmerman.

As I recall, at least two of the witnesses who have identified Zimmerman's voice are neighbors who haven't regularly socialized with the Zimmermans, so not 'friends' in the relevant sense.

Quote
How could they weigh such evidence?

The same way they weigh any testimony. They listen to and observe the witnesses as they are being examined. They may, or may not, find one side or the other more credible.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on May 06, 2013, 03:08:22 AM
I told O'Mara a long while ago that he should have an expert check if there was a distinct echo

Yes, you have been beating this drum for a while. I don't recall if anyone else has expressed any interest.

I doubt more than one or two jurors would find it persuasive. Hardly worth expending limited funds.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on May 06, 2013, 03:09:43 AM
I wasn't quite certain if he was saying no experts, or no anybody.

On the video, the 'journalist' as usual didn't bother with a follow-up question to clarify that.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on May 06, 2013, 03:15:12 AM
Although if state and defense have discussed it and are in agreement I can't imagine why there needs to be a big hearing about it.

Right.

I also can't imagine why the prosecutors would want to make the concession. It would free up funds for the defense to use for experts in other areas.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on May 06, 2013, 06:17:48 AM
Yes, you have been beating this drum for a while. I don't recall if anyone else has expressed any interest.

I doubt more than one or two jurors would find it persuasive. Hardly worth expending limited funds.
If I were on the jury, I would find Witness #6's testimony on this point, if verified by tests, very persuasive but I would dismiss the testimony of every friend and relative that says they could identify the screams as their guy.  À chacun son goût.   :D
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on May 06, 2013, 06:34:20 AM
If I were on the jury

You have made your opinion clear.

My point, is that the actual jurors may not agree with you.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: FromBelow on May 06, 2013, 07:34:10 AM
The defense filed a motion for an evidentiary hearing.

http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/157-motion-for-evidentiary-hearing
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: cboldt on May 06, 2013, 07:48:43 AM
The defense filed a motion for an evidentiary hearing.

http://www.gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/157-motion-for-evidentiary-hearing

The motion requests an evidentiary hearing as to admissibility of voice ID experts that the state intends to call.  I wonder if these are the same experts that the state listed as "C" witnesses in its initial disclosure to the defense, and assume that these are NOT the same experts, but rather are different ones.  The state surely isn't going to call the FBI experts, who concluded that they could not reach a conclusion on the available evidence.

O'Mara suggests that the point of the hearing will be to find whether or not the methodology used by the state's experts is considered reliable by the scientific community.  This is the Frye test, named after the Frye v. United States 293 F. 1013 (D.C. Cir. 1923) case, that precludes admissibility of lie detector and similar stress tests as evidence of the truth of what is being said by the subject.

I wonder if the state will produce a reverse image of O'Mara's motion, seeking to strike admission of any defense experts on the issue of voice ID.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: FromBelow on May 06, 2013, 07:55:03 AM
More pragmatically excluding voice experts saves the defense some cash. The state also has unlimited resources and can pile on experts and sway the jury's opinion by numbers alone. Keep in mind when not objecting to MOM adding witnesses after the deadline (April 30th hearing) the state reserved the right to do the same. IMO & IANAL.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on May 06, 2013, 08:02:02 AM
In the motion, O'Mara doesn't say he has any experts in the wings and it seems to me that the point of the Frye hearing is to prevent any of the prosecution experts from testifying.  Over a year ago Dr. James Wayman (http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/06/voice-forensics-experts-cast-doubt-on-orlando-sentinel-analysis-of-trayvon-martin-911-tape/) of San Jose State volunteered to be a witness against admitting the testimony of Tom Owen, one of the Orlando Sentinel Experts.  IMHO, the prosecution is really desperate to try to introduce any of the BS from Owen, Primeau or kindred spirits after previously indicating they wouldn't be called.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: cboldt on May 06, 2013, 08:02:58 AM
More pragmatically excluding voice experts saves the defense some cash. The state also has unlimited resources and can pile on experts and sway the jury's opinion by numbers alone. Keep in mind when not objecting to MOM adding witnesses after the deadline (April 30th hearing) the state reserved the right to do the same. IMO & IANAL.

I have the impression that the defense has already sunk some cash into voice ID experts, and the incremental cost of having them appear at trial isn't enough to decide to keep them out.  OTOH, if your own experts are unwilling to produce an unequivocal opinion, THAT, ALONE, would be enough to choose to keep them off the stand.

I do agree that in a battle of experts, having numbers helps.  If more experts support your side, it's (in principle) a finding that the evidence admits a reliable conclusion, as most experts reach the same conclusion.  Another factor that gives an expert credibility is having credentials, and the FBI experts rendered an opinion.  It happens to be an opinion that the state doesn't like, but there it is.

At any rate, I don't think O'Mara's motion is driven by cost; but it may be.  It may be that he hasn't been able to find or afford a hired gun expert who will take a side opposite the state's expert, and his only option in a battle of experts is to knock out the state's expert.  O'Mara may have an expert who takes a position similar to that of the FBI, and that expert would be useful to knock out the state's expert or experts.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: lin on May 06, 2013, 08:45:52 AM
It's difficult to see what the jury would learn by having a bunch of Martin's friends and family insisting it was Martin, and a bunch of Zimmerman's friends and family insisting it was Zimmerman. How could they weigh such evidence?

It will likely be more complicated than just an equal stream of opposing witnesses, which will actually make it much easier to weigh, imo.  As NMNM noted above, GZ has the neighbor witnesses who will likely be deemed more credible than some other witnesses because they are less interested.  There may be other defense witnesses with a similar disinterest; former co-workers, etc. 

Conversely, iirc, both TM's father and his half-brother, who should both be very familiar with TM's voice, were at best less than certain in their prior ID, with the father initially outright denying it was his son screaming.  If the settlement information is admitted, it may provide a motive for changing from an uncertain ID to absolute certainty and this may outweigh the "better sound system and speakers" argument from the prosecution.

If I were on the jury, I would find Witness #6's testimony on this point, if verified by tests, very persuasive but I would dismiss the testimony of every friend and relative that says they could identify the screams as their guy.  À chacun son goût.   :D

There is little doubt in my mind that such evidence would bolster the voice ID of Witness #6 to at least some of the jurors.  However, in conjunction with the other witnesses, I doubt they will dismiss his ID without that corroboration.  Instead, were I a juror, Witness #6 would be added to the list of pro-GZ witnesses with no motive to tell anything but what they honestly and impartially believe.  In addition, the jurors will hear the recording for themselves and likely will hear at least parts of other recordings of GZ's voice.  Hopefully, they will also hear a recording of TM's suspected* much deeper voice.  At least some will likely rely on their own ears in addition to the witnesses, adding their own analysis to the other disinterested witnesses.

*There is the one word recording of TM saying "hello" from the 7-11 video, and the known voices of TM's family members which sound much deeper than GZ's, suggesting his voice was likely also deep, imo.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on May 06, 2013, 09:27:23 AM
If the prosecution experts are admitted, could the defense subpoena the FBI experts?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Departure on May 06, 2013, 08:46:51 PM
If the prosecution experts are admitted, could the defense subpoena the FBI experts?

NMNM, do you happen to have a link to the FBI's official conclusion regarding their attempts to ID the source of the screams?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Cylinder on May 06, 2013, 09:10:54 PM
NMNM, do you happen to have a link to the FBI's official conclusion regarding their attempts to ID the source of the screams?

FBI Digital Evidence Lab - Report of Examination (http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/ZIMMERMAN-FBI-911-0517.pdf)

Quote
Critical listening and digital signal analyses further revealad that the screaming voice on the 911 call is of insufficient voice quality and duration to conduct meaningful voice comparison with any otherr voice samples primarily due to the screaming voice being: (1) produced under an extreme emotional state, (2)  limited in the number of words and phrases uttered, (3) superimposed by other voices most of the time, and (4) distant, reverberant and very low signal level.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Departure on May 06, 2013, 09:21:15 PM
FBI Digital Evidence Lab - Report of Examination (http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/ZIMMERMAN-FBI-911-0517.pdf)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Cylinder on May 06, 2013, 09:22:54 PM
Automatic Speaker Recognition for Forensic Application (http://www.isca-speech.org/archive_open/archive_papers/odyssey/pres/odys_nakasone_p.pdf) by Hirotake Nakasone
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Cylinder on May 06, 2013, 09:32:14 PM
Kenneth W. Marr was an expert witness in the OJ Simpson robbery/kidnapping trial (http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/sep/17/fbi-expert-testifies-simpson-robberykidnapping-tri/).
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: Jack203 on May 13, 2013, 07:15:46 PM

I told O'Mara a long while ago that he should have an expert check if there was a distinct echo to differentiate somebody screaming while facing the houses across the walk from W #6's lawn from somebody facing W #6.  I have no idea whether or not he followed up on that.

I'm guessing no.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: hexx on May 31, 2013, 06:19:01 AM
The paper by the two authors appeared to be more credible, and it's results where indecisive.

If I estimate the probability that it was GZ who was shouting, based on wittness statements, forensic evidence, logic and common sense being around, say 90%, how should I update my estimate in light of the uncertain results of experts impressions,  stating there might be 60% match with Martin and maybe about the same with GZ ?

I'd say it won't change a thing.


Like if there's a doctor with a patient that presents symptoms and signs of two conditions, one very rare and one very common.

The laboratory test results then have 70 percent match with both conditions - should doctor flip a coin or go with the more common, more probable disease?

The expert who heard a carnival barker or a religious zealot appears to have worked  under the influence of confirmation bias because of the one sided, misleading media propaganda. He apparently reproduced his earlier analysis that contained probabilities of what kind of voice a young person would have. What the heck? wasn't he given samples of Trayvon Martin's voice found in the phone?
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: ding7777 on June 15, 2013, 05:29:40 PM
The screams lasted 40(?) seconds.  If TM  was screaming, what is the State claiming was GZ doing during those 40 seconds that the evidence supports?   
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: cboldt on June 15, 2013, 05:39:43 PM
The screams lasted 40(?) seconds.  If TM  was screaming, what is the State claiming was GZ doing during those 40 seconds that the evidence supports?

The state has not made any specific claims as to how things happened.  It never produced a statement of particulars.  The MO is to leave scenario building to the readers' imagination.  I must say, that has been a spectacularly successful approach, given the vast expanse of theories floated by the supporters of the prosecution of Zimmerman.

All the state has said is, "Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued.  Witnesses heard people arguing and what sounded like a struggle.  During this time period witnesses heard numerous calls for help and some of these were recorded in 911 calls to police.  Trayvon Martin's mother has reviewed the 911 calls and identified the voice calling for help as Trayvon Martin's voice."

The state will persist is letting the listener fill in the blank spaces.  If the state floats any specific theory, then it risks that theory failing against the evidence.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: RickyJim on June 15, 2013, 06:15:58 PM
cbolt, suppose the prosecution presents a case as you say, can the defense ask for dismissal after the prosecution rests?  At that point there would not be a self defense jury instruction in play so the prosecution might, up to that point, fail to address that issue but still have presented enough to cover the claims in the APC.  It seems that the defense will have to put on a case in order to at least get the jury instruction and only be able to ask for dismissal after they rest.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: cboldt on June 15, 2013, 06:29:18 PM
cbolt, suppose the prosecution presents a case as you say, can the defense ask for dismissal after the prosecution rests?  At that point there would not be a self defense jury instruction in play so the prosecution might, up to that point, fail to address that issue but still have presented enough to cover the claims in the APC.  It seems that the defense will have to put on a case in order to at least get the jury instruction and only be able to ask for dismissal after they rest.

If the state doesn't produce evidence that supports the charge, then defense can and should move for a judgment of acquittal, even before the defense puts on its case.  I don't see how the state can put on its case and not have self defense come up in cross examination, so there will be evidence of self defense (some of which is inherent in the state's case if the performance is faithful to the admission that the state has no evidence that Zimmerman struck Martin or initiated a physical altercation; plus evidence that Zimmerman has injuries).

Nelson will deny a motion for judgment of acquittal.  The defense puts on its case which will serve to create even more reasonable doubt.  The jury instructions don't come into play until the court sends the jury out to deliberate.  The judge doesn't need detail instructions like the layman does.  As the DCA said, it is confident that the judge can apply the law.
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: TalkLeft on June 16, 2013, 03:52:59 PM
It seems that the defense will have to put on a case in order to at least get the jury instruction and only be able to ask for dismissal after they rest.

That is not correct. The testimony and evidence from the state's witnesses and even circumstantial evidence is sufficient.  On May 31, 2013, Nelson was reversed by the DCA for for not giving a self defense instruction.  in Spurgeon v. State. The court said

Quote
the trial court's discretion is more restricted in criminal proceedings "because a criminal defendant is entitled to have the jury instructed on his or her theory of defense if there is any evidence to support the theory and the theory is recognized as valid under Florida law." Id. The trial court should not weigh the evidence when determining whether to give the requested instruction. Id.; see also Pope v. State, 458
So. 2d 327, 329 (Fla. 1st DCA 1984) (stating that "t is axiomatic that a defendant is
entitled to have the jury instructed on the rules of law applicable to his theory of defense
if there is any evidence to support such an instruction, and the trial court may not weigh
the evidence in determining whether the instruction is appropriate") (citing Smith v.
State, 424 So. 2d 726, 732 (Fla. 1982)). The jury—not the trial judge—decides the weight of the evidence. Vila, 74 So. 3d at 1112. "

"The question of self-defense is one of fact, and is one for the jury to decide where the facts are disputed." Id.

Additionally, a defendant is not required to testify at trial to receive a jury instruction on self-defense. Sipple, 972 So. 2d at 915. A defendant's statements admitted into evidence at trial may be sufficient evidence for a self-defense instruction. Id. The cross-examination of State witnesses can also support a claim of self-defense. Id. at 916. Finally, if a jury can reasonably infer from circumstantial evidence presented at trial that the defendant had the state of mind necessary for self-defense, then the defendant is entitled to a jury instruction on self-defense. Johnson v. State, 634 So. 2d 1144, 1145 (Fla. 4th DCA

I have provided other cases many times. Gregory v State  (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-district-court-of-appeal/1066962.html)

Quote
A criminal defendant is entitled to have the jury instructed on the law applicable to his or her theory of defense where there is any evidence to support it, no matter how weak or flimsy.

Villa v State (http://talkleft.com/zimm/vila.pdf): (cited by the court in the May 31 case

Quote
The State contends that Vila was not entitled to the instruction because the evidence that he presented was minimal and self-serving. This argument lacks merit as a defendant is entitled to a self-defense instruction if there is any evidence to support his defense. Wright v. State, 705 So. 2d 102, 104 (Fla. 4th DCA 1998) (holding that defendant is entitled to jury instruction on his theory of case if there is any evidence to support it, no matter how flimsy that evidence might be);...
Title: Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
Post by: TalkLeft on June 16, 2013, 04:07:15 PM
Also Ricky, on the motion for judgment of acquittal. The defense makes one at the end of the states case, and if it puts on evidence, again at the end of its case.

The  judge can (and must) grant a motion for judgment of acquittal at the close of the Government's case or close of all the evidence  if the state fails to present evidence legally sufficient to overcome the defense theory of self-defense. See the 2011 Stieh case (http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/stieh.pdf‎).

Quote
But where the evidence " 'leaves room for two or more inferences of fact, at least one of which is consistent with the defendant's hypothesis of innocence, [it] is not legally sufficient to make a case for the jury.' "

...Here, although there was conflict among the testimony of the victim, Flaherty, the victim's girlfriend, and Stieh, the conflict was relatively minor and did not rebut or otherwise foreclose Stieh's theory of innocence. Therefore, the trial court should have granted Stieh's motion for judgment of acquittal.

Also, this legal discussion is better taken to a different thread. This one is about screams and voice.