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State v. George Zimmerman (Pre-Trial) => Twin Lakes Neighborhood => Topic started by: TalkLeft on August 04, 2012, 02:57:56 PM

Title: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: TalkLeft on August 04, 2012, 02:57:56 PM
Some people say it is next to Frank Taaffe's house at 1460 Retreat View Circle. Others put it further north, close to 1350 Retreat View Circle.

Here's a video (http://video.foxnews.com/v/1706442017001/) of a Fox News interview with Sierra McClendon (Austin's sister) in which she puts it at Frank Taaffe's house, 1460 Retreat View Circle. Good screenshots in the video.

During the video re-enactment, George shows where he first saw Trayvon, and it is at Frank Taaffe's house.

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/firstview.jpg)

More views:  here (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/shortcut1460b.jpg) and here (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/shortcutroute.jpg).

GZ's neighbor at 1510 Retreat View Circle also says the shortcut is between their houses.

But many put it up by 1350 Retreat View Circle.

Which one would Trayvon have been more likely to enter through?

(Edited to remove link to slideshow. Photobucket converted it to a link to all the Zimmerman photos I posted rather than just those for the shortcut.)
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 04, 2012, 04:05:27 PM
It makes sense to me that both routes would be used, depending on where the person is coming from and going to.

The one between 1460 and 1510 isn't a shortcut for a person going from Oregon Ave. to the intersection south of the main gate (RVC & TTL). I checked using Google Earth, and the distance is about the same either way.

Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 04, 2012, 04:13:12 PM
There is news video (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/7242425306/in/set-72157629976024341) of people using the 1460/1510 route. I don't know if there is any such evidence for 1350/1410.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 04, 2012, 06:14:20 PM
Possibly Martin didn't go by way of Oregon Ave. at all. Maybe he knew a shortcut all the way across the two communities (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7713504916/in/set-72157630845830014) to the west, to Rinehart Road, maybe almost directly to the 7-11.

That would explain why Martin isn't on surveillance video of the intersection of Rinehart Rd. and Towne Center Blvd, if that is the case. (See p. 67 of the July 12 evidence release. (http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf))

More pictures. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157630845830014/)
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: jupchurch on August 04, 2012, 06:25:02 PM
I would go for the cut thru at 1350 Retreat View. https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bzn-XlBIM9nGcE9BcnNtWVh1UWc (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bzn-XlBIM9nGcE9BcnNtWVh1UWc). The 1350 is much closer to the side walk, so it would be the natural path at night when it is raining.  The other cut-thru is much further from Oregan and there appears to be some sort of slope which would be harder at night.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 04, 2012, 10:51:32 PM
Contrary to Serino's March 13 report (p. 9), (http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Pages-from-Police-Reports-without-statements-redacted.pdf) Zimmerman doesn't seem to have said that he saw Martin enter the complex. Martin could have come in the main entrance, made a right turn and walked to 1460, and that would be consistent with Zimmerman's statements.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: TalkLeft on August 05, 2012, 01:05:27 PM
Contrary to Serino's March 13 report (p. 9), (http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Pages-from-Police-Reports-without-statements-redacted.pdf) Zimmerman doesn't seem to have said that he saw Martin enter the complex. Martin could have come in the main entrance, made a right turn and walked to 1460, and that would be consistent with Zimmerman's statements.

Page 9 is available here (http://talkleft.com/zimm/june27p9.pdf). The 29 page file your link goes to, which I have also posted here (http://talkleft.com/zimreportsjune27.pdf), is 16 MB and takes quite a while to open.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: TalkLeft on August 06, 2012, 12:39:38 AM
comment removed for suggesting this issue could be related to possible illegal activities by TM. There is no so suggestion of such activity in the disclosed evidence. Please don't raise it here, it's a character attack.

The issue of where the shortcut was could impact evaluation of GZ's statements of where he was when he first saw Trayvon and why that particular location stood out to him, having recently been the subject of another of his non-emergency calls.

There are newspapers putting the shortcut at the NW corner by 1350.  There are video news reports putting it at the trellises. There are residents putting it between Taaffe's house and his next door neighbors.

If you have an opinion as to which it is  and support for your theory, feel free to post it.  If you want to post speculation based on your belief GZ is telling the truth or not, this isn't the place.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: unitron on August 06, 2012, 04:18:39 AM
My comment was intended to make the point that his presence there had a very high likelyhood of innocent explanation and for him to be there for nefarious purposes required the simultaneous occurence of two unlikely coincidences.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: FromBelow on August 06, 2012, 04:33:24 AM
My comment was intended to make the point that his presence there had a very high likelyhood of innocent explanation and for him to be there for nefarious purposes required the simultaneous occurence of two unlikely coincidences.

I'm not quite sure why it matters. Are there laws restricting who a civilian can find suspicious and why?
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on August 06, 2012, 06:40:24 AM
Then again is there a law against walking?
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: AJ on August 06, 2012, 07:08:29 AM
Then again is there a law against walking?

Must fall into that same category of laws that are against getting out of your vehicle ;)
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: leftwig on August 06, 2012, 07:14:32 AM
Did GZ claim TM broke the law by walking next to Taaffe's house, or that it just looked suspicious that someone he didn't recognize was walking next to the house in the rain, just looking around?  I believe the folks participating in the neighborhood watch program were instructed to call the NEN if they saw something they thought looked suspicious and I'd say TM's chosen path on a dark rainy night combined with actions described by GZ would fit that criteria. 

I think its clear it was more than just seeing him walking in an area that is a cut through to another neighborhood that raised GZ's suspicion of TM. 
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: unitron on August 06, 2012, 07:24:32 AM
How much time would Zimmerman have had in which to observe Martin after first spotting him while still continuing to drive forward?  On the phone call it sounds like it was a lot more than a quick glimpse.

If Martin was fixing to cross the street and saw Zimmerman's headlights to his right, might he not have stopped and waited for that vehicle to get past, meaning that the more the vehicle slowed down the longer he'd be standing there waiting for it to get past so that he could cross without getting run over.  Could this have been mis-interpreted by Zimmerman who then drives even more slowly to observe him which means Martin acts even more like an impatient teenager until it's almost a feedback loop?
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: Lousy1 on August 06, 2012, 07:30:57 AM
How much time would Zimmerman have had in which to observe Martin after first spotting him while still continuing to drive forward?  On the phone call it sounds like it was a lot more than a quick glimpse.

If Martin was fixing to cross the street and saw Zimmerman's headlights to his right, might he not have stopped and waited for that vehicle to get past, meaning that the more the vehicle slowed down the longer he'd be standing there waiting for it to get past so that he could cross without getting run over.  Could this have been mis-interpreted by Zimmerman who then drives even more slowly to observe him which means Martin acts even more like an impatient teenager until it's almost a feedback loop?

Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: unitron on August 06, 2012, 07:47:05 AM


Writing in invisible ink?
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on August 06, 2012, 08:39:18 AM
There is no evidence that Lousy intended to post an actual comment. 8)
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: leftwig on August 06, 2012, 08:52:46 AM
Zimmerman would have had some information in his database before spotting Martin (its dark and its raining).  He only needed a quick look to see that someone he didn't recognize was walking next to Taaffe's house.  Not sure why TM would be near Taaffe's house waiting for a passing car to come by so he could cross the street, but assuming thats what he was doing, it wouldn't look any less suspicious in a neighborhood with a history of crime.   Again, it wasn't just Martin and his actions that raised the suspicion, the circumstances were all part of it.  Seems to be a pretty good example of what police suggested using the NEN for. 
Title: Time to Observe
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 06, 2012, 11:23:05 AM
How much time would Zimmerman have had in which to observe Martin after first spotting him while still continuing to drive forward?

The Retreat at Twin Lakes has a 15mph speed limit. You can see one of the signs in the reenactment, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) about 1:30.

Zimmerman said 'There was a car, like, backing up, so I slowed down.' (2/29-1, 8:22-25)

Quote
If Martin was fixing to cross the street

He would have been facing the street. Zimmerman said he was 'looking at the house, intently.' (2/29-1, 8:07-9)
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 06, 2012, 11:34:06 AM
There is no evidence that Lousy intended to post an actual comment. 8)

 ;D
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: Lousy1 on August 06, 2012, 11:49:08 AM
;D

It was an experiment.  The results show that minimalism is overrated.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: txantimedia on August 07, 2012, 10:49:32 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong.  I'm not as up on the physical locations as some of the other evidence.  Frank Taafe's address is 1460 RVC.  I believe his house was the one Z speaks of as having been broken into and being unsecured (doors and windows unlocked and garage door open) during the previous incident.  That is the same house that Z saw TM looking into.  If I've got all those details right, then it makes sense that TM came through that shortcut and was beside Taafe's house when Z first spotted him and found him suspicious.

Z then drives around to somewhere near the clubhouse and calls the NEN.  At that point he sees TM "behind him", so TM must have come through the shortcut by Taafe's house and then walked around RVC and passed Z near the clubhouse.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 07, 2012, 11:33:19 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong.  I'm not as up on the physical locations as some of the other evidence.  Frank Taafe's address is 1460 RVC.  I believe his house was the one Z speaks of as having been broken into and being unsecured (doors and windows unlocked and garage door open) during the previous incident.  That is the same house that Z saw TM looking into.  If I've got all those details right, then it makes sense that TM came through that shortcut and was beside Taafe's house when Z first spotted him and found him suspicious.

Z then drives around to somewhere near the clubhouse and calls the NEN.  At that point he sees TM "behind him", so TM must have come through the shortcut by Taafe's house and then walked around RVC and passed Z near the clubhouse.

That is the way I see it, too.  I can't figure out the rain and the mail shed though if you want to give Dee Dee any credit.

After TM passes the truck while it is parked (however) in front of the clubhouse, GZ gets sight of TM again on Twin Trees long enough to see him disappear down the E-W sidewalk and behind the THs.  I am thinking the second sighting is when TM did his posturing, hands in pants thing.  The question I have is did GZ get ahead of TM again while in his truck or did TM actually reappear to do it.

Do you remember if GZ brought up the "circling" first or did Singleton? 
ETA:  The actual word "circling" instead of passed by, for example.

Sorry, I had a very long day and am too tired to go through the transcripts.  I need a nap!
Title: First Circle
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 08, 2012, 12:12:11 AM

2/26-1, 11:06-34
Quote
Zimmerman: The dispatcher, whoever answered the phone, asked me where they went. And I said I wasn't sure because I lost visual of him when he went in between the houses. And he said "Well, can you tell me what direction he went?" And I said "Not really." And then all of a sudden I see him circling my car. And then he goes back into the darkness.

I think this is the first time Zimmerman described this event.

Title: Re: First Circle
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 08, 2012, 01:17:00 AM
2/26-1, 11:06-34
I think this is the first time Zimmerman described this event.

Thank you for the reference.  Tomorrow, I will go through that transcript.  For some reason, I thought Singleton might have brought up the word "circling."   It seems like I have had this in my head for a while.
Title: Re: First Circle
Post by: Lousy1 on August 08, 2012, 05:53:18 AM
Thank you for the reference.  Tomorrow, I will go through that transcript.  For some reason, I thought Singleton might have brought up the word "circling."   It seems like I have had this in my head for a while.
I am still unsure what circling entails. Assume someone is walking across the street on a path that would bring him to the driver door of an idling car. As the person gets within 5 feet of the door , he turns toward the rear of the car and crosses the street behind the car, He then continues forward walking up the passenger side of the car and beyond.
Thats a 270 degree arc. Is it considered circling?
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on August 08, 2012, 07:57:57 AM
Aye!
Title: Re: First Circle
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 08, 2012, 09:28:14 AM
I am still unsure what circling entails. Assume someone is walking across the street on a path that would bring him to the driver door of an idling car. As the person gets within 5 feet of the door , he turns toward the rear of the car and crosses the street behind the car, He then continues forward walking up the passenger side of the car and beyond.
Thats a 270 degree arc. Is it considered circling?

I was reading the transcript.  OMD!  I don't know how TXA-M sat thru that to do the transcription.  ((And those Miranda Rights, geesh.))

I just read Part 1 and GZ says that TM went completely around his car during the second sighting.  It happens after he has moved onto TTL.

Quote
Singleton: You're on the phone? And he dips between two houses? Is that what you mean? Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: cause you lose sight of him, OK?
Zimmerman: Correct. And then he comes back out
Singleton: um hum.
Zimmerman: and circles my car while I'm on the phone with the police.
Singleton: OK. Is he saying anything to you?
Zimmerman: I couldn't hear him. My windows were up.
Singleton: OK.
Zimmerman: As soon as I saw him coming up I rolled up my windows and I stayed on the phone with dispatch.
Singleton: OK. He,..your car was running?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: The lights were on?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: OK. So he knew somebody was in this car?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: And is he walking completely around the car?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Singleton: OK.
Zimmerman: Um, and, dispatch asked me where he went. I didn't know the name of the street that I was on, I
Singleton: So you'd come off your street and gotten to another street
Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.
Title: Re: First Circle
Post by: FromBelow on August 08, 2012, 01:05:38 PM
I am still unsure what circling entails. Assume someone is walking across the street on a path that would bring him to the driver door of an idling car. As the person gets within 5 feet of the door , he turns toward the rear of the car and crosses the street behind the car, He then continues forward walking up the passenger side of the car and beyond.
Thats a 270 degree arc. Is it considered circling?

Circling could mean something as simple as TM staring at GZ as he walked past. Watching/moving near him in a threatening/predatory manner. People aren't precise in their language. Consider when someone says they saw two people "circle each other" as they got ready to fight. They don't actually do a 360 around each other. It's a face off / look for an opening to attack kind of thing. Just a thought.
Title: Re: First Circle
Post by: FromBelow on August 08, 2012, 01:08:05 PM
I just read Part 1 and GZ says that TM went completely around his car during the second sighting.  It happens after he has moved onto TTL.

Well, never mind my previous post then. If GZ said he went completely around then my theory is way off. LOL
Title: Re: First Circle
Post by: unitron on August 08, 2012, 01:26:31 PM
I am still unsure what circling entails. Assume someone is walking across the street on a path that would bring him to the driver door of an idling car. As the person gets within 5 feet of the door , he turns toward the rear of the car and crosses the street behind the car, He then continues forward walking up the passenger side of the car and beyond.
Thats a 270 degree arc. Is it considered circling?

Back when all we had were the phone call and "Zimmerman's relative or friend said that Zimmerman said" to go on, I was thinking that somewhere along the line Martin walked around the truck, like maybe when if was on TTL he comes up behind it from the west, makes a wide arc to the south to the southern edge of the east west leg of TTL and then comes back more northerly as he gets east of the truck, and then someone just misunderstood "walked around the truck" for "walked all the way around the truck".

But apparently Zimmerman means there was a full 360 degree circumnavigation.

The 3/4 circle idea is interesting from the standpoint of "misinterpreted into something it actually wasn't", i.e., the truck is in the way and Martin walks around it, but wasn't actually circling it like a shark or a pack of wolves.  The only thing is, (at this pont I think) he winds up headed east towards the "T", which means he has to be approaching the truck from due south or due north, and I'm having trouble working out where the truck would have to be for that to make sense.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: TalkLeft on August 09, 2012, 02:22:03 PM
the circling does not have to do with Twin Lakes or the shortcuts. Please discuss the circling on the thread regarding Zimmerman's statements.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: Pooh on August 12, 2012, 06:52:31 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong.  I'm not as up on the physical locations as some of the other evidence.  Frank Taafe's address is 1460 RVC.  I believe his house was the one Z speaks of as having been broken into and being unsecured (doors and windows unlocked and garage door open) during the previous incident.  That is the same house that Z saw TM looking into.  If I've got all those details right, then it makes sense that TM came through that shortcut and was beside Taafe's house when Z first spotted him and found him suspicious.

Z then drives around to somewhere near the clubhouse and calls the NEN.  At that point he sees TM "behind him", so TM must have come through the shortcut by Taafe's house and then walked around RVC and passed Z near the clubhouse.

In his reenactment video at about 2:30, GZ says he saw TM "leisurely looking at the house." He does not say "looking into the house." During his actual NEN call, he also describes TM as "looking at" houses.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 12, 2012, 04:42:20 PM

I don't know if Zimmerman ever said that Martin was looking into 1460.

In his written statement Zimmerman said Martin was 'looking into homes.'

In his last interview, Zimmerman said Martin was 'looking into the houses' (2/29-3, 0:51-1:03).

Back on topic, it's interesting that Zimmerman never said he thought Martin came in through the shortcut. He never mentioned the shortcut.

Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on November 21, 2012, 07:10:59 PM
The shortcut has come up recently on two other threads.

W-8 (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2022.msg103560.html#msg103560)

Media (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2240.msg103741.html#msg103741)

I think it will be useful to document, as best I can, the negative point that Zimmerman did not tell SPD that he saw Martin enter the complex.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) of Zimmerman's statements to SPD.

Zimmerman's written statement (http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/40ZK_written_statement_0226.pdf) (2/26)

Reenactment video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) (2/27)

Download (http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/statements/video_interview_cvsa_0227.asf) video of CVSA interview (2/27)

The first time Zimmerman described the initial sighting, he did not say where Martin was.

2/26-1, 4:08-22
Quote
Singleton: OK. What made them suspicious?

Zimmerman: This gentleman in particular? I had never seen him in the neighborhood. I know all the residents.

Singleton: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: It was raining out, and he was leisurely walking, taking his time, looking at all the houses.

Later in the same interview, Zimmerman spoke of seeing Martin in front of a specific house, later identified as 1460 Retreat View Circle.

2/26-1, 10:28-42
Quote
Zimmerman: And like I said, I saw him walking in the neighborhood, the same, in front of the same house that I had called the police before, to come to because this guy leaves his doors unlocked and stuff.

The 'like I said' probably refers to the first quoted statement. It's confusing, since Zimmerman went on in the same sentence to mention the specific house, which he actually hadn't mentioned before.

Singleton asked Zimmerman to mark on a map the location of Martin on first sighting.

2/26-2, 0:27-35
Quote
Singleton: OK. Can you put an "X" on here, where you first saw the guy?

Zimmerman: Right, right about here.

A B&W photocopy (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8195799324/in/photostream/) of the map has been released. I've posted an enlarged section, (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8195730354/in/photostream/lightbox/) showing the location marked by Zimmerman.

The location is between 1460 and 1510, about even with the porch roofs of 1460 and the other units of the same building.

In the reenactment, Zimmerman said that he first saw Martin walking, 'Right in front of' 1460 RVC, and pointed out an area 'between these two poles.'
 
Reenactment, 0:00-0:21
Quote
Smith: . . . pick him up at?

Zimmerman: Right here. Right in front of this house.

Smith: OK. Right in front of 1460?

Zimmerman: Yes, sir.

Smith: Alright. And, what was he, was walking in between the buildings, or - ?

Zimmerman: He was walking like in the grassy area, like, up towards, kinda between these two poles. Like I said, it was rainy. And he wasn't, he was just leisurely looking at the house.

In his written statement on 2/26, Zimmerman described the first sighting without specifying a location.

Quote
Tonight, I was on my way to the grocery store when I saw a male approximately 5'11" to 6'2" casually walking in the rain looking into homes.

Below are the remaining instances that I have identified, of Zimmerman commenting on Martin's location on first sighting in his SPD interviews.

CVSA, 25:36-26:02, 6:44:13-39
Quote
Zimmerman: And I was leaving my neighborhood when I saw this guy, walking slowly in front of a house, looking towards the house.

2/29-1, 4:36-44
Quote
Zimmerman: Two or three weeks prior to that, I'd seen somebody looking in a window of the house that he was in front of.

2/29-1, 7:41-8:15
Quote
Zimmerman: So when I saw him, in the same area, in front of the guy's house that I know [unintelligible] had been unsecured, and he was looking into the house, I just thought something doesn't fit right here.

Serino: And this is, but this is one, this is the one prior to this one, right? 

Zimmerman: No.  This is, I'm sorry. That's why I felt this was suspicious.

Serino: OK. OK. What did you see Trayvon doing, that caught you as being suspicious?

Zimmerman: He was looking at the house, intently. And then -

Serino: What, the same house?

Zimmerman: The same house that, yeah, that had, I had called about before.

2/29-1, 8:45-48
Quote
He was just walking slowly [unintelligible] the grass and onto the sidewalk.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 22, 2013, 10:04:34 AM
Responding to post on another thread.

I've mentioned a few times that in the final draft, there is a statement that Zimmerman observed Martin entering the complex.

I suspect that was the result of someone not being nitpicky enough about Zimmerman talking about first seeing Martin where he would have been if he'd just walked in via the gap between houses that was known to be a shortcut and point of entry.

If Martin was there the most likely explanation is that he did indeed just walk through that gap

That's conventional wisdom. I've been skeptical of it for some time.

I think the gap between 1460 and 1510 is called a 'shortcut' because people walking north on the western leg of RVC, and planning to go west on Oregon Ave., can use it to save substantial walking distance over walking east to the gate and then west on Oregon Ave.

For someone going the way Zimmerman said Martin was going, I don't think it would save any walking distance. Using the path function of the Google Earth ruler, the distances seem about the same.

Someone might use 1460/1510 if they wanted to avoid the gate, if they hadn't gotten the code or didn't want to have to remember the code, or just didn't like going through gates for whatever reason. (There has been conflicting information on whether the gate would have been locked that night.)

Why not use 1350/1410? It looks (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8186898399/in/photostream/lightbox/) to be open. Maybe one of the units has a mean dog. Or something might have changed since that picture was taken.

If we believe Dee Dee's mail shade story, there's 15 mystery minutes (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2272.msg105532.html#msg105532) in that part of Martin's timeline. If we're mail shade skeptics, then it's half an hour. The shorter time is enough to walk back and forth across the complex.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: leftwig on January 22, 2013, 12:17:25 PM

If we believe Dee Dee's mail shade story, there's 15 mystery minutes (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2272.msg105532.html#msg105532) in that part of Martin's timeline. If we're mail shade skeptics, then it's half an hour. The shorter time is enough to walk back and forth across the complex.

I'm with you on being skeptical of the mail thingy story, but if we are to believe Dee Dee's account, TM got there at 6:54 and didn't move from there until about 7:04, by which time he had already spotted GZ looking at him.  GZ's story is that he doesn't see TM by Taffe's, near the cut through, until right before he called NEN, which would put it sometime between 7:08-7:09.  We see TM walking home from the 7-11 just before 6:30, so if he was just passing through the short cut at Taffe's around 7:08, thats 38 minutes to cover about .6 miles (or less than 1 mph) if walking straight back from the store.  The only way to get Dee Dee and GZ's accounts to match is for TM to be in the complex under the mail shade around 6:54, then walk around the complex for GZ to eventually see him by Taffe's 15 minutes or so later.

Speaking of another issue with Dee Dee's account.  She has TM running into the complex around 6:54 and under the mail thingy.  The phone hung up as he was running in, so she called him back which matches the 6:54 incoming call.  That call lasted 18 minutes according to the record which means it lasted until 7:12.  During this time, TM took another incoming call (7:04).  So, according to Dee Dee's statement, TM notices GZ watching him at some point while under the mail thingy.  After some time passes, TM decides to walk from under the mail thingy and the phone hangs up, but according to records, that call lasted until 7:12.  Now I could see this as being an honest mistake as they did have a bunch of phone calls that stopped and started during the day, but it seems pretty specific that she ties an event (TM leaving the mail thingy) to a call dropping and then her calling back.  This leaves several possible scenarios.

1. There were several other short calls between Dee Dee and TM before the 6:54 call that lasted 18 minutes and ended with TM running from GZ.  Its possible TM running into the "gated place" and leaving shelter corresponds to one of these earlier calls, but this would mean that TM hadn't yet seen GZ.  This would fit a timeline of a return trip from the store better if he had walked from 6:30 to say 6:45 and then ran into TTL.  The problem with this and Dee Dee's story is that this means TM was walking around somewhere in the "gated place" well before he and GZ spot each other.   If he was walking around inside the gated place from 6:45 until GZ spots him, then it would beg the question of what was he doing?

2. Using the same possibility that TM leaving shelter corresponds to an earlier call, not the one that started at 6:54, its possible TM took shelter at another location.  Dee Dee says TM took shelter inside the "gated place".  Are either of the other two complexes in route to/from the 7-11 gated?  This scenario would probably make the most sense for GZ to see TM some 15 minutes later entering RTL by Taffe's but again, it doesn't fit Dee Dee's narrative of TM leaving shelter after he and GZ notice each other, unless he took shelter multiple times that she fails to mention.

3.  Dee Dee doesn't have a clue where TM is from the time he leaves the store until he notices GZ watching him and TM is just walking around wherver from 6:30 until 7:08ish and TM never sees GZ checking him out while he was under shelter.  I think this is the most likely scenario. 

I think the idea of TM hanging out under the mail thingy was fed to her to provide an innocuous explanation for why it took TM so long to get home.  Her story of when their phone conversations started and ended matched with the phone records don't fit that scenario.  TM may very well have taken shelter somewhere on the way home, but it doesn't seem likely that it was under the mail thingy in RTL for 15 minutes or so.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 22, 2013, 07:13:25 PM
And I think he was at Lakes Edge when he took shelter from heavier rains.  It coincides with the bank videos at 6:39 where the windshield wipers were not on intermittent but consistently moving IIRC.  If you add 15min it gets you to 6:54. 

NoMatter didn't you download the video to your Photobucket or Gimp?


Now that I have the new computer, I can't see the video for a refresher.  There is a different video player at Axiom and for some reason it won't download for me.  Sorry.

 :o
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 23, 2013, 03:22:49 AM

NoMatter didn't you download the video to your Photobucket or Gimp?

No. I saved some stills, but I never downloaded the whole video.

I've never put a whole video on my Flickr page. I would like to try doing that.

Looking at the page with the M&I Bank videos, I don't see how they can be downloaded. Are you sure it's possible with those videos?

Quote
And I think he was at Lakes Edge when he took shelter from heavier rains.  It coincides with the bank videos at 6:39 where the windshield wipers were not on intermittent but consistently moving IIRC.

That's 6:36.

You are correct on wiper movement. I just checked.

More (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2161.msg105548.html#msg105548) on timelines thread.

Quote
If you add 15min it gets you to 6:54.

I'm not getting the point of this.

More (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2161.msg105553.html#msg105553) on timelines thread (separate post).
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 23, 2013, 09:04:50 AM
No. I saved some stills, but I never downloaded the whole video.

I've never put a whole video on my Flickr page. I would like to try doing that.

Looking at the page with the M&I Bank videos, I don't see how they can be downloaded. Are you sure it's possible with those videos?

That's 6:36.

You are correct on wiper movement. I just checked.

More (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2161.msg105548.html#msg105548) on timelines thread.

I'm not getting the point of this.

More (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2161.msg105553.html#msg105553) on timelines thread (separate post).

It is the 15 min call that we are using to place Martin in some area.  He ran into a gated area.  He went to a mail thingy.  I think the natural assumption is to place him at The Retreat.  If he was at the mail kiosk there, then why would Zimmerman spot him in the area of the shortcut into the property?   TO ME, it seems reasonable that he entered either Lakes Edge (my choice) or The Colonial judging by the weather conditions around the 6:35 range.  That still gives him time to wait out the rain and proceed to The Retreat and the shortcut.

How would anyone know that their phone call lasted exactly 15 minutes rather than 10min or 20min without looking at records?
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: unitron on January 23, 2013, 11:18:59 AM
Responding to post on another thread.

I suspect that was the result of someone not being nitpicky enough about Zimmerman talking about first seeing Martin where he would have been if he'd just walked in via the gap between houses that was known to be a shortcut and point of entry.

If Martin was there the most likely explanation is that he did indeed just walk through that gap

That's conventional wisdom. I've been skeptical of it for some time...

I acknowledged it as the most likely explanation for him being there if he was there, but I don't claim that it's the only possible one, and the point I was making was that someone probably misunderstood Zimmerman saying he saw Martin near the shortcut as a claim that he'd seen him come in through the shortcut.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 23, 2013, 03:03:05 PM
the point I was making was that someone probably misunderstood Zimmerman saying he saw Martin near the shortcut as a claim that he'd seen him come in through the shortcut.

I understand that. I didn't comment on that because I don't disagree, or have anything to add.

Quote
I acknowledged it as the most likely explanation for him being there if he was there, but I don't claim that it's the only possible one

That's what I disagree with. I'm not saying just that there are other possible explanations. I don't agree that Martin entering by 1460/1510 is the most likely explanation.

Another possibility is that Zimmerman made it up. On the police call recording, Zimmerman seemed to be getting his first close look at Martin about a minute into the call.

Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: unitron on January 23, 2013, 07:01:09 PM
I understand that. I didn't comment on that because I don't disagree, or have anything to add.

That's what I disagree with. I'm not saying just that there are other possible explanations. I don't agree that Martin entering by 1460/1510 is the most likely explanation.

Another possibility is that Zimmerman made it up. On the police call recording, Zimmerman seemed to be getting his first close look at Martin about a minute into the call.

If one limits oneself to taking Zimmerman's word for it that he spotted Martin there shortly before he started talking to dispatcher Sean, then it seems to me that his presence there is most likely due to having come in through the short cut, especially if he had been sheltering at mailboxes in the next neighborhood over while chatting with the young lady.

Otherwise it seems you'd have Martin entering via the front gate, maybe hanging out near the clubhouse for a while, then turning back to the west to go stand near Taaffe's house long enough to be seen and then going back to the east again to get home via Twin Trees.

I could see him going south on the west leg of RVC and then east on Lonesome Pine or whatever that short street is, and stepping up out of the street to keep from getting splashed by Zimmerman, but then why would he change his mind and head north and then east past the clubhouse?

I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible that he was walking around in the dark and the rain looking for a place to burgle, but it seems unlikely, so if he was near the short cut the way Zimmerman says, any explanation other than that he just came through the short cut seems to have a very low probability.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 24, 2013, 02:42:05 AM
I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible that he was walking around in the dark and the rain looking for a place to burgle

Straw man.

Chad (http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/geraldo/index.html#/v/1543560623001/what-really-happened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/?playlist_id=86916) said that Martin went out, in part, because he was 'bored'. (0:44-48)

Brandy Green (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w47eL_jTieI) gave boredom as the only motive for Martin's going out, when she was emotional on the day after his death, before Crump and Julison came up with treats for the 'little brother'. (1:12-17)

Brandy also said that Martin 'don't know anybody here'. To me, that suggests that 'bored' was a polite way of saying that Trayvon didn't care for Chad's company.

I find more support for this in the SAO interview summaries, (http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf) sometimes reading between the lines. Brandy (p. 32) thought Chad was included in the movie plans. Chad (p. 39) said nothing about going to a movie, and claimed all three of the boys 'were hanging out'. But Stephen (p. 9) may not have mentioned Chad after they took him home from the game, and it seems clear he and Trayvon went to the theater without him.

Chad is similarly absent from Stephen's reminiscences, as reported by Esquire. (http://www.esquire.com/features/americans-2012/trayvon-martin-1212) Even taking Chad home isn't mentioned (p2).

Quote
That last Saturday, after the football game, Trayvon and Boobie went back to Brandy's place, a lovely three-bedroom unit with granite countertops and hardwood floors they barely noticed.

After leaving 7-11, Martin trended homeward. Maybe he did want to watch the basketball game. If he didn't care to get home before the game started, it makes sense to me that he might have backtracked, wandering around looking at whatever there was to be seen. He was walking to relieve boredom, and maybe to avoid Chad. It didn't matter where he walked.

We don't know if the gate was locked that night. We don't know if Martin had the code. But Tracy Martin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x34vSJrIqe0#) said that he thought Martin would come in through the gate (0:52-1:07). That suggests that Tracy thought Martin would be able to use the gate if wanted to.

I have yet to see an explanation for why 1350/1410 could not be used as a shortcut.

Without some reasons for thinking Martin could not get in either through the gate or 1350/1410, I think those routes are more likely than 1460/1510.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: leftwig on January 24, 2013, 07:38:54 AM
The only explanation I can think of for using the 1460/1510 shortcut is if he was coming from the neighboring complex. 

Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: AghastInFL on January 24, 2013, 08:07:59 AM
snipd>
After leaving 7-11, Martin trended homeward. Maybe he did want to watch the basketball game. If he didn't care to get home before the game started, it makes sense to me that he might have backtracked, wandering around looking at whatever there was to be seen. He was walking to relieve boredom, and maybe to avoid Chad. It didn't matter where he walked.

We don't know if the gate was locked that night. We don't know if Martin had the code. But Tracy Martin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x34vSJrIqe0#) said that he thought Martin would come in through the gate (0:52-1:07). That suggests that Tracy thought Martin would be able to use the gate if wanted to.

I have yet to see an explanation for why 1350/1410 could not be used as a shortcut.

Without some reasons for thinking Martin could not get in either through the gate or 1350/1410, I think those routes are more likely than 1460/1510.

Looking around at what can be seen, aimlessly walking in the dark and rain is exactly what raised suspicion in GZ, IMO rightfully so.

If he comes in through the pedestrian gate and is first seen at the area of 1460 RVC that too becomes suspicious behavior, same causation.

OTOH if he runs in through the gate... while it is raining and seeks shelter under the mail kiosk that is not a suspicious activity.
I do not believe that happened, for something raised the suspicion in GZ to the level that he thought it necessary to call the authorities. I do not believe that TM ever took shelter under the mail kiosk on TTL if he had that point would have been easily defined for GZ to relay to Sean in the NEN call. It is after all a Federal offense to tamper with the US Mail and a suitable reason to call... it was not mentioned, ever by GZ.

Re: the shortcut, from a personal visit to TRATL I have always maintained that 1350/1410 is TM's likely point of egress as you walk along the sidewalk it provides a clear access to RVC a most inviting point to enter the community despite the trellis... the trellis' have no doubt been added to stifle such traffic.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 24, 2013, 09:40:28 AM
Looking around at what can be seen, aimlessly walking in the dark and rain is exactly what raised suspicion in GZ, IMO rightfully so.

If he comes in through the pedestrian gate and is first seen at the area of 1460 RVC that too becomes suspicious behavior, same causation.

OTOH if he runs in through the gate... while it is raining and seeks shelter under the mail kiosk that is not a suspicious activity.
I do not believe that happened, for something raised the suspicion in GZ to the level that he thought it necessary to call the authorities. I do not believe that TM ever took shelter under the mail kiosk on TTL if he had that point would have been easily defined for GZ to relay to Sean in the NEN call. It is after all a Federal offense to tamper with the US Mail and a suitable reason to call... it was not mentioned, ever by GZ.

Re: the shortcut, from a personal visit to TRATL I have always maintained that 1350/1410 is TM's likely point of egress as you walk along the sidewalk it provides a clear access to RVC a most inviting point to enter the community despite the trellis... the trellis' have no doubt been added to stifle such traffic.

The trellises have been added since the shooting, IIRC.  Taafe had a big stink about it going on with the HOA beforehand because of all  the foot traffic.  He was told that they would do something about the fence ending at his back yard. 

There was a news video showing people using that shortcut afterwards, too, and I don't remember seeing the trellises there.

Sorry, working all from memory so don't take it to the bank.  I blame age and medications.  LOL.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: unitron on January 24, 2013, 02:17:52 PM
Looking around at what can be seen, aimlessly walking in the dark and rain is exactly what raised suspicion in GZ, IMO rightfully so.

If he comes in through the pedestrian gate and is first seen at the area of 1460 RVC that too becomes suspicious behavior, same causation.

OTOH if he runs in through the gate... while it is raining and seeks shelter under the mail kiosk that is not a suspicious activity.
I do not believe that happened, for something raised the suspicion in GZ to the level that he thought it necessary to call the authorities. I do not believe that TM ever took shelter under the mail kiosk on TTL if he had that point would have been easily defined for GZ to relay to Sean in the NEN call. It is after all a Federal offense to tamper with the US Mail and a suitable reason to call... it was not mentioned, ever by GZ.

Re: the shortcut, from a personal visit to TRATL I have always maintained that 1350/1410 is TM's likely point of egress as you walk along the sidewalk it provides a clear access to RVC a most inviting point to enter the community despite the trellis... the trellis' have no doubt been added to stifle such traffic.

I'm pretty sure it's not a federal offense to stand near mailboxes to get out of the rain.

Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 25, 2013, 03:53:20 AM
Are either of the other two complexes in route to/from the 7-11 gated?

Lakes Edge is gated. Colonial Village is not.

Earlier I was thinking that they both were, and so were equally valid candidates. This gives Lakes Edge the lead over Colonial Village.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: leftwig on January 25, 2013, 08:58:32 AM
I'm pretty sure it's not a federal offense to stand near mailboxes to get out of the rain.

Of course its not.  However, an unrecognized person wearing a hoodie and looking at the mailboxes would possibly raise the suspicion of the NW leader and result in a call to NEN.  Personally, I don't think TM was ever stationed at the mail kiosk at RTL.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 26, 2013, 02:09:07 AM
Re: the shortcut, from a personal visit to TRATL I have always maintained that 1350/1410 is TM's likely point of egress as you walk along the sidewalk it provides a clear access to RVC a most inviting point to enter the community despite the trellis... the trellis' have no doubt been added to stifle such traffic.

Does it look like this? (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7676001004/in/photostream/lightbox/)

The Google Earth street views were made in April 2011, almost a year before the shooting.

Your use of singular 'trellis', and the allusion to stifling traffic, make me wonder if the gaps have been closed with some crossbars or additional latticework.   

Esquire, 11/13/12, (http://www.esquire.com/features/americans-2012/trayvon-martin-1212) p. 3
Quote
And there it is up ahead, the shortcut back into the Retreat at Twin Lakes. Coming from this direction on foot, there's no question it's the quickest way to go. Later they'll put up a sign: PRIVATE PROPERTY NO TRESPASSING VIOLATORS WILL BE PROSECUTED and a series of little arbor poles for foliage to grow on, but even then they'll leave a gap big enough for a man to slip through. For Trayvon, it's a straight shot down an open lawn, between two buildings and onto the Retreat's main street.

This is where Zimmerman sees him.

The 'little arbor poles' sounds like the photo I linked. They are said to be a recent addition, without a source cited. The Esquire article makes a number of unsourced claims about RATL. (Thread (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2240.0.html) discussing the article.)

Were arbor poles erected between 1460 and 1510, to match those already in place between 1350 and 1410? Or did the writer have a mistaken belief that the 1350/1410 poles had been recently added?

If the writer thought Martin entered by 1350/1410, then he would seem to be unaware that Zimmerman clearly identified 1460 RVC as the location where he first spotted Martin.

The Esquire article is a puff piece about Trayvon Martin and his family. It doesn't say much about the case. I don't think it's worth the time to look into the writer's background, but I suspect the assignment was given to 'human interest' writer rather than a crime reporter.

Another passage suggests the writer believed Martin entered and left by 1350/1410 (p. 1).

Quote
So Trayvon probably took the shortcut that cut through between the two buildings at the end of the lane. There the complex wall stopped and the foliage never grew in, probably because so many people took the shortcut.

We know this is the route he took on the way back, and that was his fatal mistake.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: AghastInFL on January 26, 2013, 02:49:37 PM
Does it look like this? (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7676001004/in/photostream/lightbox/)
Yes, however there does not appear to be as many 'Arbor Poles' installed now, I believe residents possible removed some or the picture date is wrong and more have been added.
Quote
The Google Earth street views were made in April 2011, almost a year before the shooting.
  it did not look like that in April of 2012 on my first visit I saw appx eight of the poles and trellises, nearest the brick wall.
Quote

Your use of singular 'trellis', and the allusion to stifling traffic, make me wonder if the gaps have been closed with some crossbars or additional latticework.   
I intended to pluralize trellis by adding the apostrophe... I could have/should have written trellises (I still think that looks wrong). There is nothing additional added, it is perhaps just localized language but the lattice work attached to the poles are as AFAIK "fan trellises" I know no other name for them. There is nor wire, fencing, additional lattice or other, as the Esquire writer inferred you can just walk between them.
Quote

Esquire, 11/13/12, (http://www.esquire.com/features/americans-2012/trayvon-martin-1212) p. 3
The 'little arbor poles' sounds like the photo I linked. They are said to be a recent addition, without a source cited. The Esquire article makes a number of unsourced claims about RATL. (Thread (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2240.0.html) discussing the article.)

Were arbor poles erected between 1460 and 1510, to match those already in place between 1350 and 1410? Or did the writer have a mistaken belief that the 1350/1410 poles had been recently added?
No, not on my last visit... there is no reason for them to be added between 1460/1510 there is a natural barrier the retention pond; you do however have me wondering so I will take a drive by there ASAP to familiarize myself again with the specifics.
Quote

If the writer thought Martin entered by 1350/1410, then he would seem to be unaware that Zimmerman clearly identified 1460 RVC as the location where he first spotted Martin.
Martin should not have been there... I see no other way to put it; TM or any person in the rain traversing a retention pond to access the community seems unreasonable and it would not have shortened his route. IMO The only people using that route as a shortcut are headed toward "Colonial Apartments".
Quote

The Esquire article is a puff piece about Trayvon Martin and his family. It doesn't say much about the case. I don't think it's worth the time to look into the writer's background, but I suspect the assignment was given to 'human interest' writer rather than a crime reporter.

Another passage suggests the writer believed Martin entered and left by 1350/1410 (p. 1).
I too believe that Martin entered by that route, from the sidewalk rather than the streetview as you approach TRATL you have a clear view up RVC you can at one point see the parking lot of the clubhouse clearly and a portion of the clubhouse itself.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 27, 2013, 04:22:39 PM
There is nothing additional added, it is perhaps just localized language but the lattice work attached to the poles are as AFAIK "fan trellises" I know no other name for them.

A fine name it is.

I looked up 'trellis'. It's one of those words that's quite familiar, but when I think about it I realize I don't really know what it means. What unites the structures called 'trellises' with one another, and divides them from other plant-supporting structures? The answer turns out to be lattice work. Trellises come in a great variety of designs, but they all have lattice work.

I couldn't find a definition of 'arbor pole', but I found some pictures, and non of them have lattice work. I think the Esquire writer didn't know the correct term.
 
Quote
I will take a drive by there ASAP to familiarize myself again with the specifics.

Would you take some pictures and post them? If you don't want to bother with posting them yourself, you can send them to me and I will post them on my Flickr page.

I would also like to know if the sidewalk between RATL and Colonial Village has been torn up, as the Esquire article seems to suggest.

Quote
IMO The only people using that route as a shortcut are headed toward "Colonial Apartments".

As I've said before, I think it's used mainly by people whose route includes the part of RVC south of 1460. For such a route, 1460/1510 is the shortest way to go to and from Oregon Ave. west of the complex.

Sierra McLendon, in the interview linked in the first post of this thread, said people used 1460/1510 to get to Oregon Ave. She is the only on-the-record source that I know of, regarding the shortcut.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: AghastInFL on February 01, 2013, 05:56:05 PM
Things Change
That is the only way I can express what i saw on a return vist to RATL:

The shortcuts have been closed permanently. They have erected a wrought iron fence the length of the W/SW property line. Probably the entire complex but that was not my concern on this visit... The sidewalk between "Colonial Village" and RATL is intact and there has been no repair or demolition work.

The Clubhouse has the address displayed on the front of the building, it is visible but very small and hard to read except straight on, the numbers are residential type 3.25" black metal against the beige stucco front.

The pedestrian gate does not appear to require a pass code, I tried to get a picture but was unable next visit I will go directly there on the sidewalk rather than a drive-by.

I have a couple of nice views from the Clubhouse parking lot, if GZ parked in the second spot he could see virtually nothing but the roof of the mail station... but if he parked between the spaces, first and second the view is more than 3/4 of the kiosk. ( the spaces are not marked/ striped for parking, but the two signs do signify the appropriate space)

Pictures I mention can be seen *here* (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/)  h/t NM_NM for hosting these.

Interesting notes:
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: RickyJim on February 01, 2013, 06:30:15 PM
Thanks for the field work AIF.  Some of us have wondered on another thread how to make sense of the directions Zimmerman gave the police on his 2/2 NEN call.
Quote
If you have an officer available, I'd probably have him stop on Reinhart across the street from Walter Reed's Bentley and go around the back".
 
He was directing them to try to catch an intruder who was hanging out around Taafe's house.  I hope you might look inyo out what he had in mind on your next Sanford visit.  TIA.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: AghastInFL on February 01, 2013, 07:11:40 PM
Thanks for the field work AIF.  Some of us have wondered on another thread how to make sense of the directions Zimmerman gave the police on his 2/2 NEN call. 
He was directing them to try to catch an intruder who was hanging out around Taafe's house.  I hope you might look inyo out what he had in mind on your next Sanford visit.  TIA.
noted.
I do not remember the precise location of any Bentley Dealership... I try to ignore them, they say  Envy is a Sin. ;)
It was a slip of the tongue likely, Walter Reed is a hospital; Reed is however the name of several dealerships locally possibly the Infiniti dealer which is close-by RATL, I doubt they sell Bentley's though. I will look and let you know, NP.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: unitron on February 01, 2013, 07:51:21 PM
Does that Colonial Village mail thing have a street address of its own so I can see where it is on a Google map?

'Cause if it was only raining straight down and not slanted because of the wind, it looks like there's enough overhang to shelter under, and if Martin got out of the rain there, and then went through the short cut by Frank's, wouldn't that tie the young lady's account and Zimmerman's together better?

Or does she mention Martin mentioning Zimmerman while he was still hanging by the mailboxes?

(I've been sick all week, and my memory is even worse than usual)
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: AghastInFL on February 01, 2013, 08:13:39 PM
Does that Colonial Village mail thing have a street address of its own so I can see where it is on a Google map?

'Cause if it was only raining straight down and not slanted because of the wind, it looks like there's enough overhang to shelter under, and if Martin got out of the rain there, and then went through the short cut by Frank's, wouldn't that tie the young lady's account and Zimmerman's together better?

Or does she mention Martin mentioning Zimmerman while he was still hanging by the mailboxes?

(I've been sick all week, and my memory is even worse than usual)
map here (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=colonial+village+apt+sanford+fl&aq=&sll=27.698638,-83.804601&sspn=10.435348,15.908203&vpsrc=6&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=colonial+village+apt&hnear=Sanford,+Seminole,+Florida&ll=28.793194,-81.33547&spn=0.001262,0.001942&z=19&cid=11894206325681466059&iwloc=A)
see the end of Millwood Dr @ Bog Wood Ln
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: unitron on February 01, 2013, 08:31:04 PM
map here (https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=colonial+village+apt+sanford+fl&aq=&sll=27.698638,-83.804601&sspn=10.435348,15.908203&vpsrc=6&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=colonial+village+apt&hnear=Sanford,+Seminole,+Florida&ll=28.793194,-81.33547&spn=0.001262,0.001942&z=19&cid=11894206325681466059&iwloc=A)
see the end of Millwood Dr @ Bog Wood Ln

Many thanks, both in general and especially for that.

That puts it about half way between the 7-11 and Frank's short cut, as the crow flies.

If there's a short cut between Plantation Lakes Circle and Twin Wood Trace, then that's the likely "teenagers' TRaTL to 7-11 and back direct route".

Does the halfway point work out with the phone call timing to put Martin under the Colonial Village mail kiosk instead of the one next to 1111 RTC?

That question is for anyone who knows.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: TalkLeft on February 02, 2013, 12:46:43 AM
Aghast, thanks so much for doing this site visit and taking the photos -- and for your thoughts on what you observed. And for sharing them here.  You did a great job! (And thanks to NM_NM for publishing the photos.)
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 02, 2013, 05:55:11 AM
Same goes from me, AIF!  Thank you so much for doing that.  It is much appreciated.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 04:50:22 PM
Permalink (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632672015348/detail/) to set of 11 photos of The Retreat at Twin Lakes and nearby points of interest, taken by AghastInFl on 1/31/13.

Many thanks and appreciations to AghastInFl for the pictures. I'm pleased and proud to give them a home.

I've collected the eleven photos into a set, which I've linked above. The link posted by AIF is for the first page of my photostream at Flickr. It shows the photos most recently uploaded, so the link will become obsolete for its purpose as new photos are added. I should have mentioned that to AIF in our private correspondence. My bad.

I've added a description for each photo, commenting on it's significance for the case, with links to other relevant material.

Flickr allows comments on each photo posted. If you have something to say about one of them that you would like to make available to everyone who views it, please post a comment. That includes any response or criticism for my views on the photos and their significance.
 
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: RickyJim on February 02, 2013, 06:29:22 PM
Thanks for uploading the pictures.  What would be really helpful, is a map where each picture location is represented by a dot.  TIA.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 03, 2013, 12:46:23 PM
Thanks for uploading the pictures.  What would be really helpful, is a map where each picture location is represented by a dot.  TIA.

Your wish is my command.

Actually, I was already planning on those lines.

I'm thinking two maps, to keep the scale from being tiny. One will cover RATL, the other the nearby points of interest.

First stab (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8441299997/in/photostream/lightbox/) at the latter. Tell me what you think. I'll be working on the other in the mean time.

I omitted the breezeway. AghastInFl says there is one in every residential building, and didn't specify the location of the one he photographed. That leaves four locations.

I kept the map legends short, to minimize the clutter, so they differ from the photo titles.

Legend :: Title

Dirt Path & Hill Wood Dr. :: Dirt Path From Hill Wood Dr. in Colonial Village to Rinehart Rd.

Mail Shade :: Mail Shade at Colonial Village at Twin Lakes

Strip Mall Entrance :: Rinehart Rd., E. of Strip Mall

Sam's Club Cams :: Sam's Club Security Cameras
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: TalkLeft on February 03, 2013, 01:23:12 PM
nm_nm, you might want to update your flickr photos with the newest version of Trayvon's and GZ's shirt testing, contained on pages 25 to 38 of George's Motion to Continue (http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/0113/defendants_motion_to_continue.pdf). They are much clearer than what was previously provided in discovery and George's are in color.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 03, 2013, 01:33:01 PM
Thanks for the suggestion.

It's on my 'to do' list.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 03, 2013, 11:48:28 PM
I'm thinking two maps, to keep the scale from being tiny. One will cover RATL, the other the nearby points of interest.

First stab at the latter.

First stab replaced by second stab. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8444128490/in/photostream/lightbox/)

Quote
I kept the map legends short, to minimize the clutter, so they differ from the photo titles.

Legend :: Title

Dirt Path & Hill Wood Dr. :: Dirt Path From Hill Wood Dr. in Colonial Village to Rinehart Rd.

Mail Shade :: Mail Shade at Colonial Village at Twin Lakes

Strip Mall Entrance :: Rinehart Rd., E. of Strip Mall

Sam's Club Cams :: Sam's Club Security Cameras
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 05, 2013, 06:03:19 AM
Set (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632691885798/)  of 11 photos of The Retreat at Twin Lakes and nearby points of interest, taken by AghastInFl on 1/31/13.

That's a new link. I had to redo the set because of a software glitch, so the earlier one is broken.

Still working on getting the maps right.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 06, 2013, 07:05:06 PM
Three new photosets.

The Retreat at Twin Lakes and Nearby Points, 2/4/13 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632703088529/detail/)

Colonial Village at Twin Lakes, 2/4/13 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632707250446/detail/)

Florida v. Zimmerman, Security Cameras (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632706683444/detail/)

AghastInFl visited the complex again on 2/4, and brought us an even bigger batch of photos. Good work, AIF!

The above sets are works in progress. There are more photos to be added, as well as descriptions and location maps. I'm posting the links for those who may want to drop in and have a look.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 06, 2013, 08:20:44 PM
Three new photosets.

The Retreat at Twin Lakes and Nearby Points, 2/4/13 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632703088529/detail/)

Colonial Village at Twin Lakes, 2/4/13 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632707250446/detail/)

Florida v. Zimmerman, Security Cameras (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632706683444/detail/)

AghastInFl visited the complex again on 2/4, and brought us an even bigger batch of photos. Good work, AIF!

The above sets are works in progress. There are more photos to be added, as well as descriptions and location maps. I'm posting the links for those who may want to drop in and have a look.

I can't believe how looking at things and places from a viewpoint other than google maps changes things.  Most striking is how close The Colonial is to RVC.  I don't know why that surprises me but it feels like you can reach out and touch the side of the buildings.  LOL.  Perception.

AIF?  When you were around The Colonial or at Lakes Edge, did you look for or notice any security cameras?  They would be mounted close to the entries and around the clubhouse.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: AghastInFL on February 07, 2013, 06:40:56 AM
I can't believe how looking at things and places from a viewpoint other than google maps changes things.  Most striking is how close The Colonial is to RVC.  I don't know why that surprises me but it feels like you can reach out and touch the side of the buildings.  LOL.  Perception.

AIF?  When you were around The Colonial or at Lakes Edge, did you look for or notice any security cameras?  They would be mounted close to the entries and around the clubhouse.
Deb
I did not notice security cams at either of the communities, they are there but not easily seen... Re:Lakes Edge there has been no opportunity to gain access into that community.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: RickyJim on February 07, 2013, 08:01:09 AM
AIF, have you checked out Calabria Cove?  Zimmerman mentions it on his 8/6/11 call as a place burglars go to after fleeing TRATL through the east gate.  Is it adjacent?
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 07, 2013, 08:39:51 AM
Deb
I did not notice security cams at either of the communities, they are there but not easily seen... Re:Lakes Edge there has been no opportunity to gain access into that community.

Makes me wish I still lived in Jacksonville.  I would have driven down there, too!  Thanks for doing all of this.  It is much appreciated.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 07, 2013, 10:36:59 AM
AIF, have you checked out Calabria Cove?  Zimmerman mentions it on his 8/6/11 call as a place burglars go to after fleeing TRATL through the east gate.  Is it adjacent?

Calabria Cove is directly south of RATL, on the other side of the hedges behind the row of houses on the south side of RVC. You could reach it on foot by walking directly south from Zimmerman's former home. By car, go out the southeast gate, right on S. Oregon Ave., and the next right is the entrance to Calabria Cove.

ETA: I just used Google Street View to see if Calabria Cove is gated. It is.

ETA 2: Strictly speaking, the vegetation between the communities isn't a hedge. It's a line of bushes and maybe some small trees.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 07, 2013, 11:08:16 AM
AIF looked for anything Zimmerman might have mistaken for a Bentley dealership, and found a new Infiniti dealership (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8450697371/in/set-72157632703088529/lightbox/) at 995 Rinehart Rd. (View (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8451786796/in/set-72157632703088529/lightbox/) from behind the dealership, toward RATL.)

The location is a vacant lot on Google Earth, which shows a different Infiniti dealership on Rinehart Rd. in the other direction.

AIF conjectured that 995 was newly constructed on 2/2/12, accounting for Zimmerman being mistaken about its name.

I don't think it is the right location. It is too far from RATL. 
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: AghastInFL on February 07, 2013, 01:07:27 PM
Calabria Cove is directly south of RATL, on the other side of the hedges behind the row of houses on the south side of RVC. You could reach it on foot by walking directly south from Zimmerman's former home. By car, go out the southeast gate, right on S. Oregon Ave., and the next right is the entrance to Calabria Cove.

ETA: I just used Google Street View to see if Calabria Cove is gated. It is.

ETA 2: Strictly speaking, the vegetation between the communities isn't a hedge. It's a line of bushes and maybe some small trees.
It seems a nice small neighborhood, well maintained; I never have understood GZ associating it with riff-raff, but then I do not live there. Other than what NM_NM stated  is there anything of particular concern Ricky?

Interesting aside..IMO; All of the neighborhoods adjacent to RATL are gated with one exception "Colonial Village" the apartment complex but I'm not sure TM would have realized that fact if he spent only a small amount of time there, walking to local points of interest like the 7/11 store. If you have seen the pictures of the neighborhood and the apartment buildings coupled with their proximity they seem a likely place for a young man to escape the rain and other than her reference to a "gated place" they fit the narrative description by DD... but such is the nature of opinion.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 07, 2013, 01:31:06 PM
If you have seen the pictures of the neighborhood and the apartment buildings coupled with their proximity they seem a likely place for a young man to escape the rain and other than her reference to a "gated place" they fit the narrative description by DD... but such is the nature of opinion.

I mentioned that in the description of the breezeway photo. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8433464081/in/set-72157632691885798)

Quote
In the later interview, W-8 did not volunteer a mention of a gate. The gate was introduced by a leading question from de la Rionda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=relmfu) (5:07-54).
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: RickyJim on February 07, 2013, 01:55:33 PM
It seems a nice small neighborhood, well maintained; I never have understood GZ associating it with riff-raff, but then I do not live there. Other than what NM_NM stated  is there anything of particular concern Ricky?
Not now, thanks AIF.  I just wanted to check Zimmerman's actual ability to direct somebody to go somewhere in his neighborhood.  I suppose it remains a mystery why in the 2/2/12 pre-Martin call he first asks that the police go 1960 RVC (his own address?), then he says the officer should "stop on
Rinehart—across the street from Walter Reed’s Bentley; and, go around the back."  Then when talking to Serino, he says while waiting for the cops he realized he gave them his address and called again to give them Taafe's address.  I guess this last call is not available.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: AghastInFL on February 07, 2013, 03:38:27 PM
I mentioned that in the description of the breezeway photo. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8433464081/in/set-72157632691885798)
Very nicely done, you captured the facts and related them well to the images. I should have checked the updates it is impressive.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 07, 2013, 05:53:09 PM
I suppose it remains a mystery why in the 2/2/12 pre-Martin call he first asks that the police go 1960 RVC (his own address?), then he says the officer should "stop on
Rinehart—across the street from Walter Reed’s Bentley; and, go around the back."  Then when talking to Serino, he says while waiting for the cops he realized he gave them his address and called again to give them Taafe's address.  I guess this last call is not available.

I explained this the last time (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2161.msg105862.html#msg105862) it came up.

As I said then, it took me a while to figure it out.

Zimmerman's address was 1950 RVC.

On 2/2/12, reporting an incident at Taaffe's residence, which is 1460 RVC, Zimmerman gave 1960 as the address. He called again later that night and gave the correct address.

As you say, audio of the second call is not available, as far as I know. The call was logged on the same Event Report as the earlier one, p. 45 of the logs. (http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/911CallHistory.pdf) The report confirms that Zimmerman correctly gave 1460 on the second call.

Zimmerman never said he gave his own address on that occasion.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

2/29-1, 5:43-59
Quote
Zimmerman: Oh, and they needed the address. And, I don't know, my adrenalin was rushing, and a thousand things went through my mind. I gave them what I thought was my address -

Serino: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: - further down in the nineteen hundreds building, instead of the fourteen hundreds.

2/29-1, 25:34-46
Quote
Zimmerman: I just have a terrible memory. And I gave, when they asked me the address, I don't know why I always think my address is 1960, and it's 1950.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: RickyJim on February 08, 2013, 06:56:12 AM
Since apparently the residents pick up mail at the shed near the clubhouse (including packages?), maybe they don't use their street addresses very much and instead use 1111 Retreat View Circle. 

Have you made sense out of "stop on Rinehart"?  And did Taafe ever explain why he didn't lock up his place when he left?
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 08, 2013, 11:09:26 AM
Have you made sense out of "stop on Rinehart"?

No.

There doesn't seem to be a Walter Reed's Bentley anywhere in Sanford. (Also tried Read's/Reed/Read.) The nearest Bentley dealership of any name is miles away.

On Google Earth overhead, date stamped 1/3/12, at or near the intersection of Rinehart Rd. and Oregon Ave. there's an auto parts store, a motorcycle/ATV shop (Seminole Power Sports), and a used car lot (Evolution Auto) which it seems carries a variety of makes. If one of those was formerly a Bentley dealership, Zimmerman was at least a month behind on the change. If one them became a Bentley dealership between 1/3 and 2/2, it's not there any longer according to AIF.

Bentley or no Bentley, I don't see the sense in suggesting 'stop on Rinehart'. The way to come at Taaffe's building from the back, is from Colonial Village.

I think this is the current favorite for Worst of George Zimmerman's Directions.

Quote
And did Taafe ever explain why he didn't lock up his place when he left?

Not to my knowledge.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: RickyJim on February 08, 2013, 12:05:11 PM
If I told you about a neighborhood watch program run by two guys, one can't remember street names or give coherent directions while the other doesn't lock his house when he leaves, would you believe me?  ;D
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 08, 2013, 12:51:04 PM
If I told you about a neighborhood watch program run by two guys, one can't remember street names or give coherent directions while the other doesn't lock his house when he leaves, would you believe me?  ;D

 ;D ;D

You were setting that up, weren't you?

ETA: I'd believe you if you said it was the neighborhood watch in a neighborhood that had a lot of burglaries.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 17, 2013, 10:40:55 PM
Updating photo project again, with renewed appreciation for AghastInFl for bringing us these pictures. I think they will be a valuable resource throughout the case, and perhaps for future students of it as well.

I think we have finally got the location maps right for the first set. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632691885798/) This set is now complete. I've updated the set description to reflect that it is now the first in a series.

The new description is itself an update on the project, so I'll reproduce it below to complete this post.


This is the first in a series of photo shoots, of The Retreat at Twin Lakes and nearby points of interest. The pictures were taken by a TalkLeft forum poster who lives in the area. He has modestly asked not to be credited here, but some of the photo descriptions have links to his posts at TalkLeft.

Each day's shooting is documented in one or more sets. This is the only set for 1/31/13.

The photos will also be used in themed sets, sometimes in combination with photos from other sources.

When complete, each daily set will have location maps, with and without street names, and an individual description for each photo.

This set, for 1/31/13, is the only one complete at the present time. The others are works in progress. A viewer may wish to check them for updates from time to time.

Completed sets may occasionally have a description updated.

There is currently one theme set, Florida v. Zimmerman, Security Cameras. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632706683444/)

The other daily sets are linked below. No on-scene photos remain to be added to these four sets. Location maps and descriptions are being added.

The Retreat at Twin Lakes and Nearby Points, 2/4/13 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632703088529/)

Colonial Village at Twin Lakes, 2/4/13 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632707250446/)

The Retreat at Twin Lakes, 2/8/13 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632740930083/)

Points of Interest Near the Retreat at Twin Lakes, 2/8/13 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157632746236580/) 
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: RickyJim on February 18, 2013, 07:36:33 AM
Very good.  Is the 7-11 near the Sam's Club?  A thumbtack showing its location would be helpful.  TIA.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: unitron on February 18, 2013, 10:12:04 AM
Very good.  Is the 7-11 near the Sam's Club?  A thumbtack showing its location would be helpful.  TIA.

Sam's Club

1101 Rinehart Rd, Sanford, FL 32771


7-Eleven

1125 Rinehart Rd, Sanford, FL 32771
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 18, 2013, 10:55:17 AM
Is the 7-11 near the Sam's Club?  A thumbtack showing its location would be helpful.  TIA.

Excellent idea. Thank you, and here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8485454443/in/photostream/lightbox/) you are.

The Sam's Club and the strip mall are neighbors, with adjoining parking areas. Sam's Club has a small side parking area in front of the auto center, (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8463233286/in/set-72157632706683444/lightbox/) adjacent to the back lot of the strip mall. The Sam's club cameras look down on both parking areas (N (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8460927989/in/set-72157632706683444/lightbox/), NE (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8450696505/in/set-72157632706683444/lightbox/)). The cupola of the 7-11 is also visible in both views.

As mentioned, I'm behind on giving the photos individual descriptions. The Sam's Club photo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8434549050/in/set-72157632706683444) from the first day does have one.

I'll add another overhead showing a possible path for Martin. That will take a bit of time.
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: RickyJim on February 18, 2013, 05:44:40 PM
Where is Taafe's house in the picture of the new fence (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8434549728/in/set-72157632691885798/)?   The stone fence on our left looks surprising low and it wouldn't be much of a barrier to many teens.  Does the other end of the new fence end in another stone fence?
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: TalkLeft on February 18, 2013, 08:29:49 PM
Here's a street view of 7-11 and Sam's Club (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/711sams_zpsb348f31d.jpg)
Title: Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 18, 2013, 09:26:31 PM
Where is Taafe's house in the picture of the new fence (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8434549728/in/set-72157632691885798/)?

The one with the balcony, at the far end of the building. It's the sixth and last unit. The building is 1410-1460 RVC.

Quote
Does the other end of the new fence end in another stone fence?

We don't know if the fence goes all the way around. If it does, the other end would be at the south end of the wall in this photo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7809177610/in/set-72157630837258338) of the back gate.