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State v. George Zimmerman (Pre-Trial) => Evidence Discussion => Topic started by: nomatter_nevermind on August 16, 2012, 12:37:42 AM

Title: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 16, 2012, 12:37:42 AM
There is already a timeline thread of sorts, but its title suggests a narrower focus.

This thread will be for discussing any evidence bearing on timing of events or movements of the principals.

I'm starting it by updating an argument I made on the blog. (http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2012/6/26/223357/828/157#157)

When Zimmerman and Singleton worked on the map, (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7702299476/in/set-72157630878225642) I think Zimmerman told Singleton that he saw Martin walk down the middle of Twin Trees Lane, then make a sharp left and disappear around the corner of 3251 Retreat View Circle. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7701064132/in/set-72157630878225642)

This is inconsistent with the reenactment, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) in which Zimmerman said he lost sight of Martin because he turned right, around the corner of the clubhouse (2:32-45). Zimmerman's statement to Singleton is more detailed, and so I believe more likely to be accurate.

In the reenactment Zimmerman didn't repeat the explanation he gave Singleton. Maybe he thought it wasn't necessary because it was already in the record, and Singleton understood. It would have been awkward because a truck was blocking the view.

I've traced three of the lines (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7786422512/in/set-72157630878225642) Zimmerman drew, using different colors.

In this transcript I have color-coded what I think Zimmerman was saying about the time he drew each of the lines.

2/26-2, 1:52-2:15
Quote
Singleton: OK. So just draw an arrow where he continues to pass you.

Zimmerman: He continues to pass me through here. And then he goes down here. You want me to [crosstalk]?

Singleton: And then he goes somewhere here where you can’t see him?

Zimmerman: Correct.

Singleton: So, just go to about where he, you think he might have been, to where you lose sight of him.

Zimmerman: He started going here, and then behind these houses.

Singleton: OK. And you could see that from here?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

Singleton: OK. And then when he gets behind the houses, you lose sight?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

More Illustrations (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157630878225642/)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: unitron on August 16, 2012, 12:58:14 AM
So "behind these houses" makes it sound like sneaking around in back yards, but because of the way the houses front on RVC with no other structures to their rear, one can go "behind them" just by walking east down the middle of TTL.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 16, 2012, 02:08:08 AM
So "behind these houses" makes it sound like sneaking around in back yards,

I disagree. In this context, 'behind' just means on the other side from the observer. The expression is used of objects that have no front or back.

Quote
but because of the way the houses front on RVC with no other structures to their rear, one can go "behind them" just by walking east down the middle of TTL.

One can, but Martin didn't according to Zimmerman. The map shows him cutting across the back yards, by making a sharp left before he reached the bend of TTL.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: unitron on August 16, 2012, 03:11:43 AM
I disagree. In this context, 'behind' just means on the other side from the observer. The expression is used of objects that have no front or back.

One can, but Martin didn't according to Zimmerman. The map shows him cutting across the back yards, by making a sharp left before he reached the bend of TTL.

So by that point he supposedly already knows that Zimmerman is watching him, which you'd think would discourage "casing the joint" if that were what he had been doing, but he chooses to walk through the wet grass instead of on the street.

I wonder how prone those streets are to flooding.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 16, 2012, 03:32:30 AM
If Martin 'sneaking around in back yards' is of no significance, why did you bring it up?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: leftwig on August 16, 2012, 08:25:43 AM
Following TM's steps according to information not coming from TM's "side".  There are clubhouse videos that show lights passing at various times, but I'm not sure anything can be definitively established as being GZ's path and timing of actions from those videos.

6 sumpin - TM leaves his home to go to the store to pick up tea and skittles for Chad.

6:20ish - TM enters the store

6:24ish - TM exits the 711 store after buying watermelon drink and Skittles (He is on the phone with Dee Dee while in the store)

6:29ish - he walks past the front window of the 711 and is headed in the direction of RTL.

6:3? - Chad calls TM who tells him he is on his way back from the store

6:53ish - TM runs into RTL to get under shelter because it was about to rain and/or started raining.  Dee Dee loses connection.

6:54ish -  She re-establishes a phone connection with TM and he has set up camp under the mail thing.
 
7:09ish -  Timing here is vague because Dee Dee says it was a few minutes later that TM says he notices a man watching him.  I am going to guess that this correlates to about the time GZ started his NEN call.  Dee Dee does not mention TM moving from the mail shelter before this, so the assumption is this has been TM's position for the last 15 minutes and where he notices GZ watching him.  TM tells her he sees this man sitting in his car watching him.  IF TM is still under the mail shade, GZ would be on TTL.

7:11ish - TM starts walking from under the mail thing.  She says right after he starts walking, the phone hangs up.  She re-establishes a phone connection at 7:12.

7:12ish - TM has passed GZ's car and GZ was following behind him.  TM put his hoodie up because it started drippin a little bit again. 

7:13ish - We don't know that a minute passed before the next action, but Dee Dee does have him walking for a little bit.  TM then tells Dee Dee he his about to run from the back.  He runs, loses GZ and is by his fathers house.  TM is "out of breath, excited and scared".

7:14ish - TM started walking back.  ITs up for debate whether she literally meant walking back from the direction he just ran, or back to a walking pace because she tells him to keep running.  I'd suggest the former because he states he doesn't need to run because he's right by his house.  IF he's at his house and starts walking and ends up at the 'T', then it seems he was walking back to where he came from.

7:16ish - Dee Dee says a couple of minutes later GZ is following him again.  Dee Dee urges him to run, he says he's not going to, she guesses he's too tired to run because he's talking low, whispering.  GZ is getting close, TM and GZ are involved in a verbal exchange and it turns physical.

7:17 and later - Dee Dee tries to call TM back a couple of times but no answer.  She doesn't try to contact anyone else.  Chad doesn't contact anyone about TM not coming home until 10:30ish.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: unitron on August 16, 2012, 06:09:30 PM
If we give "right by" as much flexibility as "near",  then just being inside the neighborhood and within a few hundred feet of the house could be "right by" compared to being at the 7-11.

We're going on our interpretation of her interpretation of what he actually said.

Yeah, no room for confusion there.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 16, 2012, 06:13:24 PM
If we give "right by" as much flexibility as "near",  then just being inside the neighborhood and within a few hundred feet of the house could be "right by" compared to being at the 7-11.

We're going on our interpretation of her interpretation of what he actually said.

Yeah, no room for confusion there.
Jeebus Crispy!  Give it a rest with the freaking "near"  Honest to Pete...  start a language thread or something.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 17, 2012, 03:25:54 AM
Following TM's steps according to information not coming from TM's "side".

Good work.

I would quarrel with Dee Dee not being on Martin's side.
 
Quote
TM started walking back.
 
You left out the word 'again'. What do you make of that word?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: leftwig on August 17, 2012, 07:39:41 AM
If we give "right by" as much flexibility as "near",  then just being inside the neighborhood and within a few hundred feet of the house could be "right by" compared to being at the 7-11.

We're going on our interpretation of her interpretation of what he actually said.

Yeah, no room for confusion there.

Well, I'd suggest we a little more information in this situation.
1.  Dee Dee tells him to run to his dad's house and TM tells her he's about to "run from the back".  TM doesn't explicitly say where he's going to run or that he agreed to run to his dad's house, but he doesn't say thats not where he's headed.  Matched with GZ's description of the direction TM disappeared, it would indicate he was moving in the direction of his dad's house.
2.  Dee Dee describes him running long enough to be out of breath, though doesn't give an estimate for how long he was running.  I'm guessing you'd have to run full sprint for at least 15-20 seconds to be as out of breath as she describes.  A decent athlete even in street clothes would cover at least 300-400 feet in that time.  IF TM is somewhere between GZ's parked car on TTL and the 'T', that would put him somewhere between 250-350 feet from his dad's house before he ran. 
3.  Dee Dee tells TM to keep running after he had stopped, but said he didn't need to because he was right by his fathers house.  TM was scared according to Dee Dee, but felt safe enough in being right by his fathers house to not run or go inside.
4.  He lost GZ.  GZ had gotten out of his car and headed toward the T.  TM was far enough away from the 'T' that he said he lost the man who was somewhere around the 'T'.

We have a lot more detailed information than just a statement that he's "right by" a certain location.  I can't think of another location TM would have been given the totality of the information.

AS for Dee Dee's statement, "he started walking back again".  She's confusing enough and the statement is vague enough to be open to interpretation.   BDLR also doesn't help the situation by giving her a statement to agree with instead of asking what she meant by it.  I think it was asked what I make of the word "again".  I think in context it could mean just walking again, or it could mean headed to the 'T' again.  I think most people describing someone who is simply changing the pace of their movement would have said, "started walking again" or "went back to walking".  She doesn't have a very good command of the English language, so that could explain the redundant use of both "back" and "again" together, or it could be (and more likely I think) that the word "back" was added to describe a direction.   I think given the other evidence that TM ran/skipped away from the 'T', was out of breath enough to be a significant distance away, was right by his fathers house and then ended up back at the 'T' where the face to face confrontation occurs, I think its pretty clear he did walk back to that area again.  BDLR didn't bother asking Dee Dee how he ended up there, but Dee Dee describes TM by his dad's house, then walking somewhere else while keeping his voice low.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: JoeMenardo on August 17, 2012, 08:36:21 AM
Well, I'd suggest we a little more information in this situation.
1.  Dee Dee tells him to run to his dad's house and TM tells her he's about to "run from the back".  TM doesn't explicitly say where he's going to run or that he agreed to run to his dad's house, but he doesn't say thats not where he's headed.  Matched with GZ's description of the direction TM disappeared, it would indicate he was moving in the direction of his dad's house.
2.  Dee Dee describes him running long enough to be out of breath, though doesn't give an estimate for how long he was running.  I'm guessing you'd have to run full sprint for at least 15-20 seconds to be as out of breath as she describes.  A decent athlete even in street clothes would cover at least 300-400 feet in that time.  IF TM is somewhere between GZ's parked car on TTL and the 'T', that would put him somewhere between 250-350 feet from his dad's house before he ran. 
3.  Dee Dee tells TM to keep running after he had stopped, but said he didn't need to because he was right by his fathers house.  TM was scared according to Dee Dee, but felt safe enough in being right by his fathers house to not run or go inside.
4.  He lost GZ.  GZ had gotten out of his car and headed toward the T.  TM was far enough away from the 'T' that he said he lost the man who was somewhere around the 'T'.

We have a lot more detailed information than just a statement that he's "right by" a certain location.  I can't think of another location TM would have been given the totality of the information.

AS for Dee Dee's statement, "he started walking back again".  She's confusing enough and the statement is vague enough to be open to interpretation.   BDLR also doesn't help the situation by giving her a statement to agree with instead of asking what she meant by it.  I think it was asked what I make of the word "again".  I think in context it could mean just walking again, or it could mean headed to the 'T' again.  I think most people describing someone who is simply changing the pace of their movement would have said, "started walking again" or "went back to walking".  She doesn't have a very good command of the English language, so that could explain the redundant use of both "back" and "again" together, or it could be (and more likely I think) that the word "back" was added to describe a direction.   I think given the other evidence that TM ran/skipped away from the 'T', was out of breath enough to be a significant distance away, was right by his fathers house and then ended up back at the 'T' where the face to face confrontation occurs, I think its pretty clear he did walk back to that area again.  BDLR didn't bother asking Dee Dee how he ended up there, but Dee Dee describes TM by his dad's house, then walking somewhere else while keeping his voice low.

Or, we can use the easier explanation that she meant to convey that he started walking again, which fits into her narrative.  i.e.  I told him to run but he wouldn't. 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 17, 2012, 09:01:12 AM
Except that she uses the word "back" which in its context, most people would imply that is in regards to a direction, since she also uses the word "again" which denotes a "repeated action".  Its entirely possible she is being redundant and both words were used to describe repeating an earlier action. 

As for her telling him to run, where would he run to if, as Dee Dee tells it, TM had already lost GZ and was by his fathers house?  She says he walks for a couple of minutes.  He could have walked from the 'T' to his dad's house in less than a couple of minutes, so whats the simplest explanation as to why he walks a couple of minutes and ends back at the 'T' face to face with GZ?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on August 17, 2012, 09:09:12 AM
She use "back" to mean resume. Where does she say TM walked for minutes after he initially ran?
To me her account seems to support the theory that TM ran around the corner, ducked into a yard
and hid. GZ says TM popped up out of the bushes.  Bill Lee's theory was that TM was just staring to head back to the Greens' when Z reappeared at the T so TM turned around to confront Z. Dee Dee's acct was similar.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 17, 2012, 11:53:56 AM
If she used "back" to mean resume, then what did she use "again" for?

We have a very different reading of Dee Dee's account. 
- She says after TM stops running, he's right by his house (misinterpreted as "ass" by BDLR)
- TM says he lost him
- She says he "started walking back again"
- She tells him to run, but he says he isn't going to because he's by his fathers house
- Its after this where she says "a couple of minutes later" the man was following him again.   

She says he ran long enough to be out of breath and was still out of breath minutes later and was no longer able to run.  I don't think running 50 feet and ducking around the corner would result in what she describes.   He notices GZ watching him while at the mail area and walks from there on the same path he would have traveled with or without GZ being present.  Why would he calmly walk a couple of hundred feet and check out what GZ was up to, then duck around the corner, stop and hide?  He had a big lead on GZ who was still sitting in his car.   If TM were afraid, he'd want to get as far away as possible, so why stop right by where GZ last saw him and allow him to catch up?  The only way that would make sense to me would be if he were setting up for an ambush.  IT doesn't fit with Dee Dee's description because she says after he ran long enough to be out of breath, then he started walking after realizing he had lost GZ and getting by his fathers house.   IT was a couple of minutes later, after he "started walking back again" that he says GZ is following him.


Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on August 17, 2012, 12:13:02 PM
She also says GZ has a deep voice. ;)


Dee Dee's use of idioms might be unfamiliar to some but
it's not like she invented it.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120518092601AAkdL34 (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120518092601AAkdL34)
She speaks in a regional dialect. So do I.
Double negatives are perfectly correct in other languages. Many English speakers use them all the time.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 17, 2012, 12:39:07 PM
No question she is hard to understand and I don't discount several other factors that would affect her narrative (not the greatest memory, event occurred 5 weeks earlier, lots of public statements and conjecture on the subject).  I was just commenting from the perspective that she offers a timeline and activities that can be compared and contrasted with GZ's account as well as the other witnesses.  The prosecution seems to want to accept her narrative as the most accurate evidence available.  They seem to accept her version that there was following and a chase without giving weight to her statements that TM lost GZ and was by his fathers house, but stayed outside and walked back to the 'T'.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: TalkLeft on August 17, 2012, 12:40:45 PM
She also says GZ has a deep voice. ;) Dee Dee's use of idioms might be unfamiliar to some but
it's not like she invented it.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120518092601AAkdL34 (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120518092601AAkdL34)
She speaks in a regional dialect. So do I. Double negatives are perfectly correct in other languages. Many English speakers use them all the time.

Your example doesn't reflect what she said,

She said  he started walking back again.

Your example is someone saying "started back walking."  "started back" is used to describe resuming an activity.  What Dee Dee said, "started walking back again" is not. 

I think her use of "back" is indicating a direction or place he was headed.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on August 17, 2012, 12:53:37 PM
No question she is hard to understand and I don't discount several other factors that would affect her narrative (not the greatest memory, event occurred 5 weeks earlier, lots of public statements and conjecture on the subject).  I was just commenting from the perspective that she offers a timeline and activities that can be compared and contrasted with GZ's account as well as the other witnesses.  The prosecution seems to want to accept her narrative as the most accurate evidence available.  They seem to accept her version that there was following and a chase without giving weight to her statements that TM lost GZ and was by his fathers house, but stayed outside and walked back to the 'T'.
True,
But close is relative. Closer than 7-11 maybe but how close? Only TM would know. We can only speculate.(and debate.  ;) :D)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: IgnatiusJDonnelly on August 17, 2012, 12:55:16 PM
Your example doesn't reflect what she said,

She said  he started walking back again.

Your example is someone saying "started back walking."  "started back" is used to describe resuming an activity.  What Dee Dee said, "started walking back again" is not. 

I think her use of "back" is indicating a direction or place he was headed.

I'm guessing MOM will ask her what she meant and we will all be certain.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 17, 2012, 01:24:51 PM
True,
But close is relative. Closer than 7-11 maybe but how close? Only TM would know. We can only speculate.(and debate.  ;) :D)

Dee Dee never mentions the word "close" that I recall, but says "right by", but I agree it could still be used for a range of distances that are relative in nature.  TM doesn't say he's right by his father's house when he's at the mail area.  He doesn't say he's right by his fathers house after walking past GZ's truck or before he's about to "run from the back".  He only mentions being right by his fathers house after running for a period of time that leaves him out of breath and according to Dee Dee, unable to run and out of sight of GZ.   TM then walked somewhere for a couple of minutes before ending up in a face to face confrontation at the 'T' which happens to be the place he  last saw GZ and a location he ran away from a few minutes earlier.

I didn't address this earlier, but Lee didn't have Dee Dee's account when he proposed his theory.  I believe Lee's theory was that TM ducked around the corner and lay in wait to ambush GZ, not that he was cowering in fear unable to run away from the pudgy Peruvian. 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 17, 2012, 02:12:21 PM

7:16ish - Dee Dee says a couple of minutes later GZ is following him again.  Dee Dee urges him to run, he says he's not going to, she guesses he's too tired to run because he's talking low, whispering. 

This is confusing two different parts of the narrative. Martin's voice being low was before the 'couple of minutes'.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 17, 2012, 03:26:53 PM
I think it was asked what I make of the word "again".  I think in context it could mean just walking again,

She said 'walking back again', not 'walking again, back'. Whatever she meant by 'back', it was also being repeated.

I think she meant 'back home', as in 'back home from the store', as opposed to 'out to the store'.

Quote
or it could mean headed to the 'T' again.

Dee Dee never said anything about the 'T', by any label or description. The only geographical locations she mentioned were 'his dad's house', the store, and the mail shelter. There was no apparent reason for Martin to be going back to the 7-11 or the mail shelter.

Quote
Dee Dee describes TM by his dad's house, then walking somewhere else while keeping his voice low.

Dee Dee didn't say he was walking somewhere else. That's your interpretation.

I think 'walking back again' most likely meant that Martin was walking on the route to 'his dad's house', as he had been before he briefly ran along the same route.

Dee Dee also didn't comment on the volume of Martin's voice during the 'couple of minutes' that he was presumably continuing to walk. His voice being low may have applied only to the moment that he told her he thought he had lost the man following him.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 17, 2012, 03:47:31 PM
He could have walked from the 'T' to his dad's house in less than a couple of minutes,

There's no evidence that Dee Dee knew that.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Redbrow on August 17, 2012, 04:00:35 PM
There's no evidence that Dee Dee knew that.

Whether DeeDee knew of the T is irrelevant. She confirms Trayvon was out of sight which fits in with GZ losing sight of TM. The area where GZ lost sight is the T.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 17, 2012, 04:02:36 PM
Bill Lee's theory was that TM was just starting to head back to the Greens' when Z reappeared at the T so TM turned around to confront Z. Dee Dee's acct was similar.

It is not.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 17, 2012, 04:05:04 PM
They seem to accept her version that there was following and a chase without giving weight to her statements that TM lost GZ and was by his fathers house, but stayed outside and walked back to the 'T'.

Again you are presenting your interpretations as if they are exactly what Dee Dee said.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 17, 2012, 04:08:01 PM
I'm guessing MOM will ask her what she meant and we will all be certain.

If Dee Dee's next statement includes the "T", I will think she added it to conform with expectations, as I think she did before with the mail shelter.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: annoyedbeyond on August 17, 2012, 05:24:11 PM
Again you are presenting your interpretations as if they are exactly what Dee Dee said.

He said "seem to", which is different from "they do".
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on August 17, 2012, 05:51:10 PM
If Dee Dee's next statement includes the "T", I will think she added it to conform with expectations, as I think she did before with the mail shelter.

What expectations are connected to the mail kiosk?

Did anyone other than her mention Martin being there?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 17, 2012, 06:35:52 PM
What expectations are connected to the mail kiosk?

I don't have a cite from before April 3 offhand. My recollection is that the blogs were full of speculation about the mail shelter being the place Martin sheltered from the rain.

We were discussing it on the TalkLeft blog in May, just before the first evidence release.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 17, 2012, 07:06:38 PM
Where does she say TM walked for minutes after he initially ran?

I don't take Dee Dee's 'couple of minutes' literally. It seems to be an expression she uses for an indefinite amount of time. It could have been longer or shorter.

It happens, though, that Zimmerman's police call disconnected almost exactly two minutes after he said Martin was running.

Dee Dee didn't explicitly say that Martin was walking during the 'couple of minutes'. But that is the most natural interpretation of her narrative.

Martin 'started walking', then 'a couple of minutes' passed, then Martin was being followed. Dee Dee didn't say Martin kept walking, but she didn't say he stopped.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on August 17, 2012, 08:10:39 PM
I don't have a cite from before April 3 offhand. My recollection is that the blogs were full of speculation about the mail shelter being the place Martin sheltered from the rain.

We were discussing it on the TalkLeft blog in May, just before the first evidence release.

But wasn't all talk around the 'net about the mailbox area after it was known that she mentioned it?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 17, 2012, 08:32:01 PM
But wasn't all talk around the 'net about the mailbox area after it was known that she mentioned it?

If that's so, then those people knew that Dee Dee mentioned it long before I did.

Wasn't the de la Rionda interview part of the May 17 evidence release?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: leftwig on August 18, 2012, 07:48:19 AM
This is confusing two different parts of the narrative. Martin's voice being low was before the 'couple of minutes'.

Granted, I used a transitive application to Dee Dee's statements.  She gives two possible reasons for why he started talking low, scared and being out of breath.  A couple of minutes later she's still telling him to run, but she knows he's not going to because he's still out of breath and presumably no less scared than before.  I make the assumption that since he's still of breath and still scared, he's talking in the same manner she described before, which also assumes Dee Dee has any idea what she's talking about.  I really don't think she knows, but I am examining this from her perspective. IF TM is not talking low later under the same circumstances, then her explanation for why he was talking low initially is suspect.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 18, 2012, 07:49:25 AM
There's no evidence that Dee Dee knew that.

Dee Dee wouldn't, but we do.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 18, 2012, 08:30:05 AM
She gives two possible reasons for why he started talking low, scared and being out of breath.

Dee Dee didn't say Martin being out of breath was a reason for his voice getting low.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: leftwig on August 18, 2012, 02:10:29 PM
She said 'walking back again', not 'walking again, back'. Whatever she meant by 'back', it was also being repeated.

I think she meant 'back home', as in 'back home from the store', as opposed to 'out to the store'.

Why would she mean walking back from the store, if she says TM is already by his fathers house?  I could see this being an explanation if she was describing an event before re-entering the RTL community, but not at the point she makes the statement.

Quote
Dee Dee never said anything about the 'T', by any label or description. The only geographical locations she mentioned were 'his dad's house', the store, and the mail shelter. There was no apparent reason for Martin to be going back to the 7-11 or the mail shelter.

Of course she doesn't, but we know the 'T' exists.  I am using other known information to match her timeline.   She does say TM is about to run from the back.  I'd guess this either means from the back of GZs vehicle or she meant to the back of his house.  Since GZ's truck was presumably parked in a direction that would place TM in front of it, I'd guess her account would be consistent with the later.

Quote
Dee Dee didn't say he was walking somewhere else. That's your interpretation.

TM was either walking in circles, or he walks to a different location.  I'd assume the later to be more likely.

Quote
I think 'walking back again' most likely meant that Martin was walking on the route to 'his dad's house', as he had been before he briefly ran along the same route.

Dee Dee also didn't comment on the volume of Martin's voice during the 'couple of minutes' that he was presumably continuing to walk. His voice being low may have applied only to the moment that he told her he thought he had lost the man following him.

Dee Dee says he was under the mailbox shade when he first notices GZ.  She then says he starts walking and is being followed by GZ.  She doesn't mention TTL because she doesn't know anything about the area, but I again think the logical assumption is TM is walking down TTL and if GZ is following in his car, he'd be behind TM.  If TM is on TTL walking in the direction of his home, he wouldn't be very far from home.  If we try to match up Dee Dee's account with GZ's, then TM is anywhere form 250-350 feet from his home when he takes off running "from the back" and down the dog walk area and when he stops running he's by his fathers house.  How long/far do you think he ran in order to be out of breath to the point where he couldn't run anymore?  To me, it seems most logical he ran to the back of his fathers house, since thats what Dee Dee seems to be most likely saying and he had plenty of time to do so in the timeilne supplied by Dee Dee and GZ.

(Edited by TL to correct coding for quotes. There was an improperly placed "/" in the opening quote which prevented the quotes from showing as such. To quote if you aren't going to use the button, the quoted material should be prefaced with quote in  brackets with no slashmark.   The slashmark preceding quote  is used at the end.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 18, 2012, 08:44:00 PM
Why would she mean walking back from the store, if she says TM is already by his fathers house? 

I obviously disagree with you on what Dee Dee meant by 'right by'. Do you have anything new on this point? It's already been batted around.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 19, 2012, 08:39:44 AM
"He lost him; he was breathin’ hard. An…by the sound his voice…voice kinda
change"

She mentions being scared and being out of breath for the reason his voice changes.  Dee Dee isn't full of logic, but she doesn't mention talking low while GZ is watching TM, she doesn't mention him talking low as he passes his car or about to run from the back.   She only mentions talking low after he lost the guy and was breathing hard.  Does it make sense he all of the sudden gets scared after he lost the guy?

Now personally, I believe TM was talking low because he didn't want GZ to hear him, not because he was scared or out of breath, but Dee Dee most definitely using his being out of breath for a reason his voice changes.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 19, 2012, 09:18:48 AM
Dee Dee most definitely using his being out of breath for a reason his voice changes.

She said both things happened. She didn't say one was the reason for the other.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on August 19, 2012, 09:35:27 AM
"He lost him; he was breathin’ hard. An…by the sound his voice…voice kinda
change"

She mentions being scared and being out of breath for the reason his voice changes.  Dee Dee isn't full of logic, but she doesn't mention talking low while GZ is watching TM, she doesn't mention him talking low as he passes his car or about to run from the back.   She only mentions talking low after he lost the guy and was breathing hard.  Does it make sense he all of the sudden gets scared after he lost the guy?

Now personally, I believe TM was talking low because he didn't want GZ to hear him, not because he was scared or out of breath, but Dee Dee most definitely using his being out of breath for a reason his voice changes.

Did Martin want to avoid having Zimmerman hear what he had to say, or just avoid Zimmerman being able to determine his location by hearing him?

It wasn't until Zimmerman got out on foot that either would have been a problem.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 19, 2012, 06:28:03 PM
I agree with you, in that I think he was talking low to avoid detection.  Dee Dee however says TM's voice changes (clarified to talking low) in the same sentence that he lost the man and gives reasons of being out of breath and scared for why his voice changed.

I still don't see how "start walking back again" after he was by his father's house results in TM continuing walking to his dad's home, especially since he ends up back at the 'T".  Dee Dee says TM was at the mail area, notices GZ, starts walking, the phone hangs up, then GZ is following TM in the car as he's walking.  Dee Dee deosn't know where TM is walking, but I think its a pretty safe assumption he's walking down TTL and GZ is still in his car.  IF GZ is behind him, then TM is between GZ and the 'T' before he starts running. 

How far is he from home before he starts running? 

How far does he have to run to be completely out of breath and far enough away to have lost GZ who is probably somewhere around the 'T'? 

Is Dee Dee wrong that he ran "from the back" and ended up by his fathers house? 

How would TM be continuing on a path home when he "started walking back again" and end up back at the 'T'?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 20, 2012, 06:29:40 AM
Is Dee Dee wrong that he ran "from the back" and ended up by his fathers house?

I don't know.

I consider the accuracy and the interpretation of Dee Dee's narrative to be open questions. 

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 20, 2012, 11:44:22 AM
I don't know.

I consider the accuracy and the interpretation of Dee Dee's narrative to be open questions.

We agree here.  I'd really like to hear her first interview with Crump with better audio quality.   The defenses depo of her could be interesting as well, but she could also stonewall that interview.  Her one with Crump early on would be the most interesting to me.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 21, 2012, 07:54:42 PM

Responding to comment on another thread.

Trayvon reaches the mailboxes (after which George lost sight of him, prompting his statement to the dispatcher, “these as*sholes, they always get away.”)

Dee Dee implied to de la Rionda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=relmfu) that Martin was caught in the rain outside 'the gated place', and entered the complex already running to the mail shelter (5:33-53).

As an aside, this would make more sense if Martin came in the front entrance. That would also fit better with Crump's version. (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html)

Quote
He runs into the apartment complex and runs to the first building he sees to try to get out of the rain.

Dee Dee told de la Rionda the phone call disconnected about this time, putting it about 15 minutes before the police call began recording (5:54-58).

Zimmerman never said he lost sight of Martin at the mail shelter. When he worked on the map for Singleton, he explained in detail how he lost sight of Martin 'behind these houses'. (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2161.msg101424.html#msg101424)

I've done some research on whether Zimmerman would have been able to see Martin walk down the middle of TTL and round the corner of 3251 RVC, as he seems to have told Singleton. I think he could have.

The same research leads me to think Martin could not have walked eastward on TTL from the mail shelter without Zimmerman seeing him.

From 'These a*holes' to 'he's running' is about 30 seconds.

The drive from the clubhouse to parking on TTL took 41 seconds in the reenactment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) (2:55-3:36).

Martin would have to run to cover the 380 feet from the mail shelter to the backyard area in 30 seconds. He's supposed to loiter for 'a couple of minutes', and then Dee Dee said he was 'walking'.

How did Martin have time to double back and circle the truck? How did Zimmerman have time to be circled?

Why didn't Zimmerman say a word about this second approach on the police call? Why is all the drama, the hand in the waistband, part of the first pass in the police call, and part of the second pass in the interviews, whenever there is a second pass? Why hasn't Dee Dee said that Martin doubled back and circled the truck?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: amateur on August 21, 2012, 08:19:15 PM
For some reason, I always thought she was talking about him sheltering in the apartment complex next to RTL and not the mailbox shelter next to the clubhouse.  I'll have to listen to her statement again to find exactly why I had that impression, but I think it might have been the timeline of the phone calls that made me think that part happened before he entered RTL.  He could have sheltered in the apartment complex near the cut through.

I don't think there's enough time for him to pass GZ at the clubhouse, shelter at the mailboxes, walk to the cut through and then come back out and circle the truck during the time that GZ is observing him on the NEN call.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: spectator on August 22, 2012, 01:52:11 AM
I've done some research on whether Zimmerman would have been able to see Martin walk down the middle of TTL and round the corner of 3251 RVC, as he seems to have told Singleton. I think he could have.

The same research leads me to think Martin could not have walked eastward on TTL from the mail shelter without Zimmerman seeing him.


Your right !

Unless you believe George is mistaken seeing TM walking east on TTL before he left the clubhouse, the "mail thing" has been debunked.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 22, 2012, 07:51:11 AM
Responding to comment on another thread.

Dee Dee implied to de la Rionda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=relmfu) that Martin was caught in the rain outside 'the gated place', and entered the complex already running to the mail shelter (5:33-53).

As an aside, this would make more sense if Martin came in the front entrance. That would also fit better with Crump's version. (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html)

Dee Dee told de la Rionda the phone call disconnected about this time, putting it about 15 minutes before the police call began recording (5:54-58).

Zimmerman never said he lost sight of Martin at the mail shelter. When he worked on the map for Singleton, he explained in detail how he lost sight of Martin 'behind these houses'. (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2161.msg101424.html#msg101424)

I've done some research on whether Zimmerman would have been able to see Martin walk down the middle of TTL and round the corner of 3251 RVC, as he seems to have told Singleton. I think he could have.

The same research leads me to think Martin could not have walked eastward on TTL from the mail shelter without Zimmerman seeing him.

From 'These a*holes' to 'he's running' is about 30 seconds.

The drive from the clubhouse to parking on TTL took 41 seconds in the reenactment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) (2:55-3:36).

Martin would have to run to cover the 380 feet from the mail shelter to the backyard area in 30 seconds. He's supposed to loiter for 'a couple of minutes', and then Dee Dee said he was 'walking'.

How did Martin have time to double back and circle the truck? How did Zimmerman have time to be circled?

Why didn't Zimmerman say a word about this second approach on the police call? Why is all the drama, the hand in the waistband, part of the first pass in the police call, and part of the second pass in the interviews, whenever there is a second pass? Why hasn't Dee Dee said that Martin doubled back and circled the truck?

I think these are all very valid questions.  I am of the impression that TM was never under the mail shade once Zimmerman spots him and places his NEN call.  I don't know if Dee Dee was mistaken and he took shelter somewhere else, or that maybe TM took shelter there first, then went somewhere that wasn't towards his home.  She has about an 18 minute gap with little to nothing going on while taking shelter from the rain.

I'm of the impression from GZ's multiple accounts and sounds on the NEN, that TM passed GZ the first time while he was sitting in his car at the clubhouse calling NEN which would explain not mentioning the first pass to the dispatcher (it had happened before or just as he began talking to him.  I base this mainly on GZ's statements to the dispatcher saying "the best address I can give you is" and other descriptions of where he is.  If GZ was sitting parked at the clubhouse talking to the dispatcher, I'd expect he would have said so instead of saying its the best address I've got.   I certainly don't discount that some of the things GZ describe either happened in a different order or didn't happen exactly as he describes, but I feel pretty comfortable that GZ wasn't parked at the clubhouse as he was talking to the dispatcher, or at most was there only a few seconds before moving to TTL and that TM had already passed that location. 

I guess another possibility would be that GZ is lying and that he never stopped at the clubhouse to place the call and never spotted TM at the bend by Taffe's house and instead spotted TM standing under the mail shade talking to Dee Dee. 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: amateur on August 22, 2012, 09:26:42 AM
For some reason, I always thought she was talking about him sheltering in the apartment complex next to RTL and not the mailbox shelter next to the clubhouse. 

I had a look at google maps and there is what looks like a mail shelter in the apartment complex next to RTL right off of Oregon Ave that would be very easy to duck under and is very close to the cut through.  I listened to DD's recording with BDLR and she does say he is already in the gated place when he goes under the mail shelter, but she may have just assumed that.  Remember that she's probably never been there and never seen the neighborhood, so if he said he was under a mail shelter she probably assumed it was in his complex.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 22, 2012, 09:36:46 AM
I had a look at google maps and there is what looks like a mail shelter in the apartment complex next to RTL right off of Oregon Ave that would be very easy to duck under and is very close to the cut through.  I listened to DD's recording with BDLR and she does say he is already in the gated place when he goes under the mail shelter, but she may have just assumed that.  Remember that she's probably never been there and never seen the neighborhood, so if he said he was under a mail shelter she probably assumed it was in his complex.

Since it was over a month before she made any statement to the SAO, I don't give her any leeway as to how she had never been there.  She could have very well gone up to Sanford or even googled the area to see what it was like.  With Crump et al on the news and access to the information she would have had negates that to me.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: amateur on August 22, 2012, 11:08:34 AM
Since it was over a month before she made any statement to the SAO, I don't give her any leeway as to how she had never been there.  She could have very well gone up to Sanford or even googled the area to see what it was like.  With Crump et al on the news and access to the information she would have had negates that to me.

That's all well and good, but I still think it's likely that she made an assumption based on what he was telling her.  It seems unlikely that she would make up the bit about the mail shelter or that it's important enough to have been planted in her testimony.  It doesn't really help either side.  It makes sense that he spent some time sheltering from the rain on the way back and it helps to fill a very big gap in time between the 7-11 video and the NEN call.  It doesn't fit the timeline that he spent any time at the mailboxes in RTL nor does it fit GZ's narration.  So, IMO, it makes more sense if he was not yet at RTL when he stopped by the mailboxes. 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Lousy1 on August 22, 2012, 12:04:50 PM
That's all well and good, but I still think it's likely that she made an assumption based on what he was telling her.  It seems unlikely that she would make up the bit about the mail shelter or that it's important enough to have been planted in her testimony.  It doesn't really help either side.  It makes sense that he spent some time sheltering from the rain on the way back and it helps to fill a very big gap in time between the 7-11 video and the NEN call.  It doesn't fit the timeline that he spent any time at the mailboxes in RTL nor does it fit GZ's narration.  So, IMO, it makes more sense if he was not yet at RTL when he stopped by the mailboxes.

Unless it was an attempt to account for the missing time after the 7-11 with a sanitized version.

Who ducks under shelter during a rainstorm and specifically mentions the type of shelter in their phone conversation. It is probably not  relevant to any other part of the discussion. It seems contrived. So does  does the mention of a  hood being donned.  Unless the events were somehow significant for other reasons who would say , or remember, such mundane, insignificant details?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 22, 2012, 12:37:08 PM
Unless it was an attempt to account for the missing time after the 7-11 with a sanitized version.

Who ducks under shelter during a rainstorm and specifically mentions the type of shelter in their phone conversation. It is probably not  relevant to any other part of the discussion. It seems contrived. So does  does the mention of a  hood being donned.  Unless the events were somehow significant for other reasons who would say , or remember, such mundane, insignificant details?

This is from a locked thread.  MJW did a lot of work putting together the call log from Tracy Martin's cell.  I am trying to find the rest because this one is not exactly accurate.  I seem to remember I made a mistake but I don't know if it is corrected on this one...

6:45-6:50 (5 min. - from Martin to DeeDee)
6:46-6:48 (2 min - from Martin to non-T-Mob.)
6:49-6:53 (4 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)
6:53-6:54 (1 min. - from Martin to DeeDee?)
6:54-6:55 (1 min. - from Martin to DeeDee?)
6:54-7:12 (18 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)
7:04-7:05 (1 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mob.)
7:08 text from DeeDee
7:12-7:16 (4 min. - to Martin from DeeDee

Should  we start a new thread?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on August 22, 2012, 02:18:05 PM
Should  we start a new thread?

I'll be happy to start a thread on the call times.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 22, 2012, 02:26:13 PM
That's all well and good, but I still think it's likely that she made an assumption based on what he was telling her.  It seems unlikely that she would make up the bit about the mail shelter or that it's important enough to have been planted in her testimony.  It doesn't really help either side.  It makes sense that he spent some time sheltering from the rain on the way back and it helps to fill a very big gap in time between the 7-11 video and the NEN call.  It doesn't fit the timeline that he spent any time at the mailboxes in RTL nor does it fit GZ's narration.  So, IMO, it makes more sense if he was not yet at RTL when he stopped by the mailboxes.

I don't discount this theory entirely, but Dee Dee says TM rain into the gated community and took refuge under the mail shed.  She has TM standing around somewhere (presumably under the same mail area since she doesn't detail him moving) when he spots GZ watching him. Its then TM decides to start walking from under the mail area according to her.  Its possible TM goes from a mail area in one community to a mail area in another and Dee Dee just leaves that part out.  Or, it could be that TM left the neighboring apartment mail area and was loitering somewhere else when GZ and TM notice each other as GZ never mentions anything about seeing TM near the mailboxes on TTL.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 22, 2012, 03:48:36 PM
Since it was over a month before she made any statement to the SAO, I don't give her any leeway as to how she had never been there.  She could have very well gone up to Sanford or even googled the area to see what it was like.  With Crump et al on the news and access to the information she would have had negates that to me.

You're talking about Dee Dee as if she were a student being graded on an assignment instead of a witness in a case.

If you or I lost a friend in a homicide, we might feel that getting obsessive about the case was the best way to deal with the grief. Many people would do the opposite, and avoid the subject as much as possible.

It's also questionable if it's the right thing for a witness to do. Researching the case might contaminate her recollections more than it clarifies them.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Lousy1 on August 22, 2012, 04:12:07 PM
You're talking about Dee Dee as if she were a student being graded on an assignment instead of a witness in a case.

If you or I lost a friend in a homicide, we might feel that getting obsessive about the case was the best way to deal with the grief. Many people would do the opposite, and avoid the subject as much as possible.

It's also questionable if it's the right thing for a witness to do. Researching the case might contaminate her recollections more than it clarifies them.

Do we know that Dee Dee was a close friend of TM?
I think the nature of their relationship has yet to be explored.  Certainly texts and social media would help establish the truth. Some of her actions and testimony seem at odds with being a close friend and there seems to be a motive for her to 'play a role' in the Tom Swift, romantic narrative invented by Crump.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: annoyedbeyond on August 22, 2012, 05:10:45 PM
You're talking about Dee Dee as if she were a student being graded on an assignment instead of a witness in a case.

If you or I lost a friend in a homicide, we might feel that getting obsessive about the case was the best way to deal with the grief. Many people would do the opposite, and avoid the subject as much as possible.

It's also questionable if it's the right thing for a witness to do. Researching the case might contaminate her recollections more than it clarifies them.

And yet you pore over ever syllable--not just word--that GZ has said and discount anyone who says the same about him.

And we really don't know anything about her, as Lousy1 said.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 22, 2012, 07:18:32 PM
Do we know that Dee Dee was a close friend of TM?

Response (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2022.msg101890.html#msg101890) on W-8 thread.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 22, 2012, 07:33:57 PM
You're talking about Dee Dee as if she were a student being graded on an assignment instead of a witness in a case.

If you or I lost a friend in a homicide, we might feel that getting obsessive about the case was the best way to deal with the grief. Many people would do the opposite, and avoid the subject as much as possible.

It's also questionable if it's the right thing for a witness to do. Researching the case might contaminate her recollections more than it clarifies them.

I just don't think she much intended to be a witness, if you listen to Team Crump.  First there was the story of the investigator from Natalie Jackson tracking her down.  From Crump, it was Tracy Martin who called her Sunday (3/18?), he called her on Monday and Tuesday he has the presser.

Then why the delay if he was her friend?  She is so upset that she has to go to the hospital on the day of his memorial (either the viewing on March 2nd or the service/internment on the 3rd) but she still doesn't tell anyone what has happened?  This was her good friend.  She knows the family has been crying out for answers.  Not only is it a statewide story, the nationals have picked it up also.  Still, nothing from Dee Dee.  His father tracked her down from looking at the bill.  (Sorry, I don't believe any investigator found her.)

I can understand her reluctance with LE.  But there was not some friend or some adult she could have trusted enough?   I don't find that plausible.

I also question when Tracy Martin actually contacted her.  On March 5th, he declined to allow access to TM's cell phone as per request from Officer Santiago.  He said he "would contact his lawyer" before releasing that information.  Crump implies that the first contact with Mr. Martin was Sunday the 18th.

Considering that she was under the wings of Crump for over a week before the meeting with de la Rionda, "Student" might very well be a good description of her, IMO.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: ding7777 on August 22, 2012, 08:00:08 PM

Considering that she was under the wings of Crump for over a week before the meeting with de la Rionda, "Student" might very well be a good description of her, IMO.

When Dee Dee says  You want that too? it does sound like she was coached
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 23, 2012, 04:39:16 AM
Considering that she was under the wings of Crump for over a week before the meeting with de la Rionda, "Student" might very well be a good description of her, IMO.

 :)

Longer response (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2022.msg101937.html#msg101937) on W-8 thread.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 23, 2012, 06:54:20 AM
For some reason, I always thought she was talking about him sheltering in the apartment complex next to RTL and not the mailbox shelter next to the clubhouse.

I think that is consistent with Crump's version, (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html) not so much the SAO. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=relmfu)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on August 23, 2012, 08:54:30 AM
Crump does say TM runs into the "apartment complex" and under the first building he see's to take shelter from the rain.  Now, RTL isn't an apartment complex, but many people in the community rent (including BG) so it does have a bit of an apartment complex feel.  Also, Crump says TM does this at 6:54 and says that "unbeknownst to TM", he's being watched as he is taking shelter.  Crump says TM stands under the apartment building for a while, puts his hoodie up and starts walking again and tells Dee Dee he thinks he's being followed.  I think Crump is just calling RTL an apartment complex, not that TM ran for shelter in the adjacent apartments.

Many of Crumps early statements are incredibly inaccurate now that we look back on them. 

-  Dee Dee and TM were dating and in "puppy love" (not according to Dee Dee or his mother)
- TM weighed 140-150 soaking wet
- TM went to the store to get some snacks when his little step-brother asked for skittles and something to drink (Chad is not TM's step brother as Tracy was never married to Brandy and was still married to Alicia Martin at the time.  Also, what snacks did TM buy for himself?  Looked to me like he went straight for the watermelon drink and Skittles and didn't shop around for any snacks for himself, assuming the Skittles and drink were for Chad).
- TM runs under shelter to avoid the heavy rain at 6:54, but starts walking from shelter around 7:12 (according to the weather reports and witness statements the heaviest rain occurred from 7:00-7:30 and peaked around 7:15)
- TM says GZ is following him, but TM slows down so he can look into the car (I'm having trouble visualizing how TM is being followed by someone in a car, but slows down so he can look inside the car.  Could be that they noticed each other, GZ drives past and watches while placing a call, then TM is passing him and slows down his walking pace to check out GZ).
- GZ pursues TM because you can hear GZ breathing hard (I don't hear GZ breathing hard at any point during the NEN and after GZ responds "OK" to the dispatchers statement that he doesn't need to follow TM, it sounds like he just standing around the next couple of minutes.)
- Police instructed GZ to something other than what GZ did, like get back in his truck or meet by the mailboxes (Obviously police never instructed GZ to do anything).
- Dee Dee tells TM to run, so he runs once and thinks he lost GZ.  GZ is now in sight again, following TM and she tells him to run, but TM says he's not going to run, just going to walk fast (he ran once, why is he not going to run again and just "walk fast")
- After TM asks why he's being followed Dee Dee hears the "other boy" say "what are you doing around here" (Other "Boy"?  I thought Dee Dee said the other person had a deep, old man voice?)
- Dee Dee says she can hear a bump, the ear piece fall out and faint noises, but no other specifics until the phone cuts out (She now hears a little bit of "get off" from TM)
- George gets off the phone with the dispatcher (The dispatcher is the one that wraps up the conversation with George and I think George would have liked to have stayed on the phone.  This however doesn't fit the Crump narrative that GZ had to get off the phone to begin pursuit of TM).
- The stuff about TM being high is preposterous (We don't know for certain TM's physical state, but we know he's been busted for pot and had THC in his blood stream.  We still don't have the full tox report available, so we don't know if TM was high or not, but it doesn't seem preposterous to think he may have been).
- All of TM's teachers have given information about what kind of good kid TM was (I recall reading something from a man who coached him 5 years earlier, but not anything from current teachers).
- Says there are three witnesses who claim to know it was TM screaming for help (I know there are a couple who think it was a young boy yelling/crying, none that identified TM as the source to police).
- GZ killed TM in cold blood (don't really have to say more).

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 23, 2012, 09:09:32 AM
In response to the "young boy" yelling for help.  I think that is a direct influence from the media that continued to show, and still continues to this day, pictures of Martin at age 12 or 13. 



Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 23, 2012, 09:10:24 AM
Also, Crump says TM does this at 6:54

Crump's version has Martin leaving the shelter before he gets Dee Dee's 6:54 call.

Quote
and says that "unbeknownst to TM", he's being watched as he is taking shelter.

Good point. That is inconsistent, unless Zimmerman left RTL and followed Martin back to it.

Quote
Many of Crumps early statements are incredibly inaccurate now that we look back on them. 

Many of them have looked inaccurate for a long time. Some looked inaccurate as soon as they were made. For example, you only had to put together a couple of news reports to see that Martin was shot before the NBA All-Star game began, and so couldn't have been going to the 7-11 at halftime.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 23, 2012, 09:26:20 AM
Crump's version has Martin leaving the shelter before he gets Dee Dee's 6:54 call.

Good point. That is inconsistent, unless Zimmerman left RTL and followed Martin back to it.

Many of them have looked inaccurate for a long time. Some looked inaccurate as soon as they were made. For example, you only had to put together a couple of news reports to see that Martin was shot before the NBA All-Star game began, and so couldn't have been going to the 7-11 at halftime.

If he took shelter on someone's patio, I can see why it would get changed to a mail shed.  While I can see the innocence of trying to get out of the rain on a patio, I don't think a homeowner would see it the same way.  But in the same thought, if a homeowner had detected him, why wouldn't they be the ones calling 911?   Or at least be a witness?

He could have been anywhere getting out of the rain.  I don't think it was the mail kiosk, however.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on August 23, 2012, 09:32:07 AM
He could have been anywhere getting out of the rain.

Or it could have been made up, to counter Zimmerman saying Martin wasn't trying to get out of the rain, and account for Martin's time.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on August 23, 2012, 09:49:48 AM
Or it could have been made up, to counter Zimmerman saying Martin wasn't trying to get out of the rain, and account for Martin's time.

Too true.  I think I have a personality defect.  I keep expecting people to tell the truth.

TM finished his purchases at 6:24pm.  It really does make me wonder what he was doing for roughly 45 minutes.  I wouldn't even hazzard a guess but why would Crump be so threatened that he would have to make up something.  He zealously guards the image of TM.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on September 28, 2012, 11:10:46 PM
I've posted two pictures (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157631453946968/) illustrating possible partial timelines. I will add more in the future.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on September 29, 2012, 06:52:44 AM
I've posted two pictures (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157631453946968/) illustrating possible partial timelines. I will add more in the future.

Quote
The timeline is based on Zimmerman's statements to Sanford police investigators, ignoring most of the issues raised by Zimmerman's police call. With that caveat, I think this is the most plausible timeline.

BBM
I don't understand how you can ignore most of the NEN since that was happening in real time.

I do want to thank you for the illustrations.  You put a lot of work into those and it is appreciated.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on September 29, 2012, 08:44:00 AM
I've posted two pictures (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157631453946968/) illustrating possible partial timelines. I will add more in the future.

Where are the timelines?  Sorry but I only see pictures.  I assumed you meant you had two columns, one for EST and the other what was going on.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on September 29, 2012, 09:05:24 AM
Sorry but I only see pictures.

There is text for each picture. Click one of the thumbnails, or right click and choose one of the 'open' options.

Quote
I assumed you meant you had two columns, one for EST and the other what was going on.

No. As I said, they are partial timelines. Both start from the moment Zimmerman put the truck in reverse to back out of the clubhouse parking lot. I didn't try to estimate EST.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on October 19, 2012, 10:03:04 AM
I do want to thank you for the illustrations.  You put a lot of work into those and it is appreciated.

Thanks, but it was mostly fun. I'm learning to use an image editor, and I'm like a kid with a new toy. If not for the Zimmerman case, I would be doing similar projects on some other subject.

Quote
I don't understand how you can ignore most of the NEN

I said I ignored 'most of the issues raised by' the call.

2/26-2, 1:59-2:15
Quote
Singleton: And then he goes somewhere here where you can’t see him?

Zimmerman: Correct.

Singleton: So, just go to about where he, you think he might have been, to where you lose sight of him.

Zimmerman: He started going here, and then behind these houses.

Singleton: OK. And you could see that from here?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

Singleton: OK. And then when he gets behind the houses, you lose sight?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

On the police call there is no mention of Zimmerman losing sight of Martin 'behind the houses'. There is no mention of Zimmerman losing sight of Martin at all until after Zimmerman got out of the truck.

Zimmerman claims to have gone in search of Martin, driving from the clubhouse parking lot to a place where he parked on the left side of Twin Trees Lane. I think the best source for this is to watch that part of the reenactment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) (2:33-3:42).

On the police call Zimmerman never mentioned moving his truck.

2/27R, 3:33-42
Quote
Zimmerman: And I saw him walking back that way, and then cut through the back of the houses. He looked back, and he noticed me, and he cut back through the houses.

These events are not mentioned on the police call.

Very little that Zimmerman claimed in his SPD statements is reflected in the police call. Were that not so, the recording would be a powerful tool for constructing a timeline. Instead, we cannot even say what part of Zimmerman's narrative falls within its four minutes.

Perhaps the greatest source of disagreement on that question, is that some of Zimmerman's statements claim that Martin approached and passed the truck twice. Only one such episode is evident from the police call.

Martin passed the truck twice in 2/26-2, 2/27R, and 2/27V. Only one passing is mentioned in 2/26-1, 2/26W, (http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/40ZK_written_statement_0226.pdf) and 2/29-3.

The last interview, 2/29-3, differs from all the others. It is only a partial narrative, covering the periods of the police call and W-11's 911 call. There is no mention of the circling of the truck, which is in every one of the other narratives.

In 2/29-3, Zimmerman was parked in front of the clubhouse when Martin approached with his hand in his waistband. To be precise, Zimmerman said 'I think I'm still at the clubhouse, yes.' (3:15-24)

It happened on Twin Trees Lane in 2/26-2, 2/27R, and 2/27V, (http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/statements/video_interview_cvsa_0227.asf) the three narratives that have two passings of the truck. In all of them the hand in the waistband and the circling of the truck were part of the second passing, on Twin Trees Lane.

In 2/26-1 and 2/26W, the other two narratives in which only one passing of the truck is mentioned, the location is unclear and the hand in the waistband is not mentioned.

Later in 2/29-3, Zimmerman passed on an opportunity to describe a second approach and an associated circling.

2/29-3, 4:46-5:08 
Quote
Call:
Quote
Zimmerman: Yeah. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left.

Serino: What's happening now? Are you guys walking now? Is he walking?

Zimmerman: No, that's, I was parked where I could see him now.

Singleton: So you're definitely not in front of the clubhouse anymore, at this point.

Zimmerman: No. Hmm-mm. No.

Serino: So you're ahead of him?

Zimmerman: No, I was behind him.

To me this seems like the moment for Zimmerman to say something like this: 'I had just parked on Twin Trees Lane, and he was starting to walk towards me. Soon he was circling the truck, and he even put his hand in his waistband again. I was so over that. This time I didn't even tell the dispatcher. I just kept giving him gold-plated directions, which the dimwit somehow couldn't follow.'

Except that I don't really think there is time for this. If the police call recording describes Martin passing the truck at the clubhouse, both Martin and Zimmerman needed to hustle to get to their places, for Martin to start running and for Zimmerman to spring from the truck. In this scenario, the circling of the truck on Twin Trees Lane just has to be dispensed with in my opinion.

I'm not quite done, but I fear this comment is already too long. I will take the subject up again later.

Audio of Zimmerman's SPD interviews here (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) and here. (http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on October 19, 2012, 12:10:33 PM
Good stuff.  Just a quick personal take, I think the "circling" of the truck occurred while he was parked at the clubhouse but I question exactly what he meant by "circling".  To me it means walking around completely at least once, but others might use it if someone walked from one side, around the front and past the other side.  I also think this happened before the NEN connected.  GZ doesn't seem clear whether he was connected to the dispatcher while parked at the clubhouse or not.  So not to go into too much detail, but here is what I think.

Before starting to talk to the dispatcher:
1) pulled over to park at the clubhouse with TM coming towards him from down the street.
2) as he was waiting for the connection, TM approached his car and passed it.  Not sure what actions TM took exactly, but probably is the time GZ relays the circling happening. 
3) after TM passes his parked car, GZ the connection is made with the dispatcher and TM disappears. 
4) GZ starts the conversation with dispatcher as he pulls out of clubhouse parking and starts describing the situation.  Some things had happened earlier, some are just happening. 
5) moves onto TTL and finds a parking spot as TM appears again.

The only issue I see with this timeline is the dispatcher asking where TM is and if he' at or near the clubhouse now and GZ says he is then is starting walking towards him.  The only way I can make this foot is if GZ sees his position as being near the clubhouse since he's just a few hundred feet away and that TM isn't any closer to the clubhouse than he is (ie, he's not walking from the clubhouse towards him, they are just both near the clubhouse as TM approaches).  If we can make that leap (that GZ wasn't describing TM walking from the clubhouse to his parked location on TTL), then I think we can make the NEN fit most of his testimony if we accept that he didn't begin talking with the dispatcher as he was parked in front of the clubhouse.  I think the NEN provides us with that detail when GZ first begins to talk and says "the best address I can give you is 111 RVC [the clubhouse]".  I think that phrasing indicates he doesn't know the address of where he currently is, but is giving the closest address he knows and I don't think he would have phrased it that way if he were sitting in the clubhouse parking.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on December 09, 2012, 04:58:40 PM

Responding to comment on another thread

In my opinion, the evidence slightly favors Martin entering through the front gate rather than a shortcut.

Are you referring to time constraints?

No. I don't even know what you mean by that. Martin's time isn't constrained between the 7-11 and Zimmerman calling to report him. There is time unaccounted for.

Quote
Dee Dee doesn't mention TM coming through the gate. 

Not that we know of. Crump implied (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2022.msg103545.html#msg103545) that she did in her first statement, but I'm not counting that as evidence.

The record doesn't show that Zimmerman or Dee Dee ever mentioned the shortcut, so in that respect the evidence is even.

The record doesn't show Zimmerman ever saying anything about how Martin entered the complex. He didn't claim to know anything bearing on that. He didn't speculate about it. He just didn't mention it at any time in his SPD interviews.

Dee Dee's  SAO interview, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=relmfu) 5:38-53
Quote
De la Rionda: It started raining. And did he go somewhere?

Dee Dee: Yeah, he ran to the mail thing.

De la Rionda: Like, I'm sorry, what?

Dee Dee: Like a mail -

De la Rionda: Like a mail -

Dee Dee: shed. Like a shed.

De la Rionda: -like a shed, like a mail area -

Dee Dee: Yeah.

De la Rionda: - like a covered area -

Dee Dee: Yeah.

De la Rionda: - because it was raining?

Dee Dee: Yeah.

De la Rionda: So did he tell you he was already inside, like, the gated place?

Dee Dee: Yeah, he ran in there.

To me this suggests Martin entering through the front gate, more strongly than anything Zimmerman said suggests that he came in near 1460 RVC.

I put some weight on Tracy Martin's opinion. Tracy either didn't know about the shortcut, or didn't think Martin would use it.

Tracy had spent more time at the complex than Martin. If he didn't know about the shortcut, it's likely Martin wouldn't.

It's even more likely that Martin wouldn't have used the 'shortcut' to get from Oregon Ave. to the clubhouse area, even if he did know about it. It isn't really a shortcut for that purpose.

In a couple of comments, I have said that 1460/1510 would have been a longer way around for Martin. That was a misrecollection on my part. I looked at my earlier comments, and I had actually concluded that the difference is too close to call. But it would have meant walking across unpaved, rain-soaked ground, for no perceptible reduction in walking distance.

I think the 'shortcut' is so called because people walking north on the western leg of RVC use it to get to Oregon Ave. before following it westward. That would save a thousand feet or more over going out the front gate. This would explain why the shortcut is 1460/1510, and not 1350/1410.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on December 09, 2012, 05:35:13 PM
Tracy would have known the neighborhood, and stuff like shortcuts, from a grownup's perspective of driving.

Trayon would have known it from a kid's perspective of walking and bike riding, and hearing other kids in the neighborhood talk about how to get to the store.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on December 09, 2012, 05:56:46 PM
Trayvon would have known it from a kid's perspective of walking and bike riding, and hearing other kids in the neighborhood talk about how to get to the store.

Brandy said that Trayvon 'don't know anybody here.' (Video, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w47eL_jTieI) 1:12).

Austin and Sierra McLendon lived in the next building, and apparently didn't know Trayvon.

Investigation of the last two days of Martin's life showed him spending time with his cousin, who was not a resident of the neighborhood.

Other than Chad, is there any evidence of Martin speaking to one of the 'kids in the neighborhood'?

Press reports indicate that the shortcut was known to residents generally. I have seen no evidence it was a secret the teenagers were successfully keeping from the adults.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on December 09, 2012, 06:47:19 PM
Brandy said that Trayvon 'don't know anybody here.' (Video, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w47eL_jTieI) 1:12).
Other than Chad, is there any evidence of Martin speaking to one of the 'kids in the neighborhood'?

There was (perhaps it is still there) a youtube video of three boys in that development of approximately Chad's age saying they played touch football with Trayvon.  The only thing I can remember about it that two of the boys were brothers.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Redbrow on December 09, 2012, 07:28:16 PM
Brandy said that Trayvon 'don't know anybody here.' (Video, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w47eL_jTieI) 1:12).

Austin and Sierra McLendon lived in the next building, and apparently didn't know Trayvon.

Investigation of the last two days of Martin's life showed him spending time with his cousin, who was not a resident of the neighborhood.

Other than Chad, is there any evidence of Martin speaking to one of the 'kids in the neighborhood'?

Press reports indicate that the shortcut was known to residents generally. I have seen no evidence it was a secret the teenagers were successfully keeping from the adults.

According to the teens in this article, Trayvon visited several times and played football with them. Not only that, they actually looked forward to his visits. It would surprise me if Austin McLendon, Chad Green and these other teens did not know each other, since they are all around the same age and probably went to the same school.

Quote
Trayvon Martin lived with his dad, who resides in the Miami area, and had visited his dad's girlfriend at the Retreat several times before. The kids in the neighborhood always looked forward to playing football with him. But to George Zimmerman, he was a stranger.

Just then, three teenage males walked through the unlocked side gate, down the walkway toward Ransburg. T.J. Jones and his twin brother, T.Y., 14, and their cousin James Young, 13, have lived in the complex for two years. Their moms moved here from apartments to give the boys more room and a safe place to play.

The boys, who are black, used to play football with Trayvon Martin "right there on that grass where he died," said T.Y.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on December 09, 2012, 11:06:39 PM
Responding to comment on another thread

Are you referring to time constraints?

No. I don't even know what you mean by that. Martin's time isn't constrained between the 7-11 and Zimmerman calling to report him. There is time unaccounted for.

Not that we know of. Crump implied (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2022.msg103545.html#msg103545) that she did in her first statement, but I'm not counting that as evidence.

The record doesn't show that Zimmerman or Dee Dee ever mentioned the shortcut, so in that respect the evidence is even.

The record doesn't show Zimmerman ever saying anything about how Martin entered the complex. He didn't claim to know anything bearing on that. He didn't speculate about it. He just didn't mention it at any time in his SPD interviews.

Dee Dee's  SAO interview, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=relmfu) 5:38-53
To me this suggests Martin entering through the front gate, more strongly than anything Zimmerman said suggests that he came in near 1460 RVC.

I put some weight on Tracy Martin's opinion. Tracy either didn't know about the shortcut, or didn't think Martin would use it.

Tracy had spent more time at the complex than Martin. If he didn't know about the shortcut, it's likely Martin wouldn't.

It's even more likely that Martin wouldn't have used the 'shortcut' to get from Oregon Ave. to the clubhouse area, even if he did know about it. It isn't really a shortcut for that purpose.

In a couple of comments, I have said that 1460/1510 would have been a longer way around for Martin. That was a misrecollection on my part. I looked at my earlier comments, and I had actually concluded that the difference is too close to call. But it would have meant walking across unpaved, rain-soaked ground, for no perceptible reduction in walking distance.

I think the 'shortcut' is so called because people walking north on the western leg of RVC use it to get to Oregon Ave. before following it westward. That would save a thousand feet or more over going out the front gate. This would explain why the shortcut is 1460/1510, and not 1350/1410.

And I don't believe he went to any mail thing. 

I believe that he most likely took shelter under a porch or a patio, and not necessarily at The Retreat.  I think time wise it is just as likely that he was at Colonial Village.  That community is not gated.  W8 doesn't mention TM entering the gate.  BdlR does.  Zimmerman see him down by Taafe's in the grass and makes no mention of how he got there, gate or otherwise.

I was looking over Google maps at Colonial for the thousandth time and I can see nothing that resembles a formal mail kiosk.  ((Those buildings are also 3 story which is mentioned somewhere, I cannot remember where but it was a sticking point))  I am thinking that the mail boxes are within the space occupied by the stairways and run front to back in each building.

Anyway it is just IMO.  So not a big deal.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Kyreth on December 10, 2012, 01:22:22 AM
In regards to the Capehsrt articles...he ignores the fact that there is no record of DNA tests being done on Trayvon's hands....only fingernail scrapings were tested.  Therefore as outside observers we can only guess what was or wasn't on his hands and so for a journalist to continue claiming a lack of DNA on his hands is a problem for George is misleading.

Frances Robles interviewed several DNA experts who all agreed nothing in the DNA results demonstrates proof of murder.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Kyreth on December 10, 2012, 01:25:10 AM
And I think that went in the wrong thread.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: cashmere on December 10, 2012, 09:21:42 AM
Thanks -- Even in the wrong thread, I saw it.  I will check out Robles and the interviews.  Thanks again!
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on December 12, 2012, 05:47:00 PM
W8 doesn't mention TM entering the gate.  BdlR does. 

I don't think de la Rionda did either. He used the expression 'gated place' to describe the complex. That may be what you are thinking of.

In this picture, (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8137418130/in/photostream/lightbox/) you can see the gate and the mail shade. A person going in the gate would see the mail shade before they reached the gate. After they passed through the gate, the mail shade would be directly ahead.

Don't you feel Dee Dee's story sounds more like a person doing that, than like a person coming in a block away, and running that block before they even see the mail shade?

Maybe that feeling is too subjective to call 'evidence'. And Dee Dee did telescope Martin's walk from the 7-11 to the complex. It's likely enough she would telescope his running that block.

In a few days we should have the long awaited clear recording of Dee Dee's  statement to Crump. That may settle the question of whether Dee Dee claims that Martin told her how he entered the complex.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 22, 2013, 11:52:02 PM
Responding to post on another thread.

And I think he was at Lakes Edge when he took shelter from heavier rains.  It coincides with the bank videos at 6:39 where the windshield wipers were not on intermittent but consistently moving IIRC.

That's 6:36.

You are correct on wiper movement. I just checked.

There was also a vehicle at the ATM at 5:40 with no wiper movement. And in the 7-11 video, there is a car pulling into a parking space with no wiper action. So no rain at all until after Martin left the 7-11, consistent with Dee Dee.

All of this is contingent on the time stamps being correct. Have the time stamps on the 7-11 video ever been confirmed?

I'm looking at some Google Earth street views of the north side of Lakes Edge. They were taken in April of 2011, so almost a year before the shooting.

The entrance to Lakes Edge is about 900 ft. east of the 7-11. An average walking pace is about 300 ft./minute, so Martin might be reaching the entrance around 6:32.

The vehicle gates were open at the time of the photo. They are set well back from Rinehart Rd. The fencing here is well hidden by bushes, but it must bend to follow the entry road as far as the gates. The entry road is flanked by sidewalks on both sides. There must be pedestrian gates hidden by palm trees.

There's a little structure between the lanes of the entry road. It could be a shack for a human guard.

This place is prettier than RATL, and I'll bet more expensive. I wonder how its Neighborhood Watch is doing.

The fence doesn't look very high, maybe chest or shoulder height, and I don't see barbed or razor wire. There's a gap in the fence about 300 ft. east of the entrance, leading to a carport. Martin might be reaching it around 6:33.

After another 80-90 ft. the fence angles away from the road. After another 80 ft. or so there is another gap in the fence, then a 40-50 ft. section of fence. Another 60 ft. on, and there is a perpendicular row of bushes that may be hiding a fence between Lakes Edge and Colonial Village. 

By this point, Martin might have another minute or two before the rain started, more if he was walking faster than I've conjectured. Colonial Village would be as accessible as Lakes Edge.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 23, 2013, 12:31:57 AM
Follow Rinehart along side Lakes Edge and you will see there is no fencing.  Just hedges with breaks.  All of the fencing is up at the entrance.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 23, 2013, 12:59:43 AM
Follow Rinehart along side Lakes Edge and you will see there is no fencing.  Just hedges with breaks.  All of the fencing is up at the entrance.

I think I see fencing.

I could be wrong.

ETA: I think the purpose of the hedges is to conceal the fencing. So, not surprising it's hard to see.

ETA 2: I think you're right. What I identified as a break in the fence, about 300 ft. east of the entrance, is actually where the fence ends altogether.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on January 23, 2013, 01:30:38 AM
All of this is contingent on the time stamps being correct. Have the time stamps on the 7-11 video ever been confirmed?

If the time stamps have been confirmed, I haven't heard about it. I doubt the surveillance video from a major retailer like 7-Eleven would be too far off. It's intended to be used as evidence in court, and the correct time is easy to obtain these days. I did compare the time stamps between several different views, and as far as I could tell, they appeared to match.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 23, 2013, 02:50:19 AM
If the time stamps have been confirmed, I haven't heard about it. I doubt the surveillance video from a major retailer like 7-Eleven would be too far off. It's intended to be used as evidence in court, and the correct time is easy to obtain these days. I did compare the time stamps between several different views, and as far as I could tell, they appeared to match.

I agree also.  We have "eye-in-the-sky" cameras inside my place of work.  When there have been instances where we have had to lock a portion for later use, the time stamps are correct.  We only have two weeks to go back and lock in the portions that we need to save because it will overwrite with new video.  We capture what we need and send the DVD to home office.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 23, 2013, 03:12:02 AM
Responding to post on another thread.

And I think he was at Lakes Edge when he took shelter from heavier rains.  It coincides with the bank videos at 6:39 where the windshield wipers were not on intermittent but consistently moving IIRC. If you add 15min it gets you to 6:54.

I'm not getting the point of the last sentence.

Now I'm looking at Martin's phone records, (http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf) from 6:30 on (pp. 6-7).

At 6:30, just after passing out of the view of the 7-11 cameras, Martin called North Dade. The connection lasted 13 minutes, to 6:43. Must be Dee Dee. She didn't mention the 6:43 connection break to de la Rionda.

At 6:41 Martin took an incoming call, that lasted 4 minutes. Three way? Or was he juggling them? Or did Martin take more than a  minute to sweet talk Dee Dee off the phone, until he could finish his business with Caller X? Either way, Dee Dee hasn't spoken a known word about any of the other calls Martin received.

Have investigators identified Caller X? I doubt it was Chad. I think his call would have been one of the under-a-minute ones, which I'm ignoring.

De la Rionda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfVTM8sqz4k&feature=relmfu) told Dee Dee 'We've got all the phone records' (5:02), but he never asked who else Martin was talking to.

At 6:45 Martin was done with Caller X, and called North Dade. The call lasted 5 minutes.

At 6:49 Martin got another incoming call, which lasted 4 minutes. This time Dee Dee was off the phone before the end of the next minute.

To me it looks like two of the disconnections that Dee Dee implied were the phone 'acting up' (4:59), might have been Dee Dee clearing the line for Martin to talk to someone else.

At 6:53 and 6:54 Martin made calls to North Dade that were billed at 1 minute. These may have been calls to Dee Dee that were aborted for some reason, maybe because the phones were 'acting up'. If one or both of these calls were to Dee Dee, then Martin may have told her he was done with his other call.

At 6:54 Martin got an incoming call that lasted 18 minutes. It would end at 7:12, roughly in the middle of Zimmerman's call reporting Martin to the Sanford Police Department.

At 7:12 Martin got an incoming call that lasted 4 minutes.

The last two calls would be the ones on which Dee Dee claimed that Martin gave her a play-by-play of his encounter with Zimmerman.

Dee Dee told de la Rionda that the phones disconnected about the time that Martin ran to the mail shade, and that it was re-established by Dee Dee calling Martin (5:38-58).

If the rain started at 6:36 or earlier, that would have been in the first half of the 6:30-6:43 call. It could not have been coincident with a lost connection.

So, if we conjecture that the rain started at such a time, that Martin took shelter somewhere in Lakes Edge or Colonial Village, and that Dee Dee was mistaken about the coincident timing of the rain and the phone disconnection, what then? What can we say next about the timeline?

I meant to explore this question, but wrestling with the phone records has already made a longer post than I expected. I'll leave it there for now.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on January 23, 2013, 07:29:20 AM
When speaking timeline, also consider when Dee Dee specifically mentions being disconnected with TM.   There are three specific occurrences she details of being disconnected and ties them to events that she remembers.  I'll detail them in reverse order of mention.

1.  She mentions being disconnected when TM ran from GZ.  This disconnection clearly seems to coincide with the 6:54 call ending (it lasted 18 minutes) and the getting reconnected at 7:12 (final call that lasted 4 minutes).  This matches GZ's timeline for when he said TM ran/skipped down the dog walk.

2.  Dee Dee says her call gets disconnected as TM leaves the shelter of the mail thingy.  This occurs after TM notices GZ.  "He was telling me like…like he a man watching him, so he like started walking .... And then…the phone hung up. And I call him back again. And then, I say ‘What you
doin’?’ and he say he walkin’ and he said this man still following him, behind the car".  The description of this disconnection and call back doesn't fit any timeline because this call would have had to start before 6:54.  It could be that she just isn't remembering correctly and that the call didn't get disconnected at this time.  I guess its also possible that this disconnection wasn't a disconnection, but her being put on hold for TM to take a 7:04 incoming call.  That call lasted a minute, so that would put TM leaving the mail thingy around 7:05, three to four minutes before GZ details seeing him.  Could be that TM hadn't seen GZ yet and went walking around the neighborhood and then GZ sees TM near Taffe's snooping around.   The issues with believing this happened are that Dee Dee says she called him back and that she says TM had already made contact with GZ before he left shelter.

3.  Her call got disconnected when TM made a mad dash to get out of the rain and under the mail thingy.  Given that she mentions 2 disconnects occurring after this one, this would have occurred before 6:54.   To have an idea when this dash for shelter occurred, we have to look at the call timeline which NMNM supplies.  AS NMNM details, there is no call end time that coincides with when it started raining harder.  It could be that TM didn't go take shelter immediately, but decided to take shelter at some point after the rain continued. 

We obviously don't have enough information to nail down where TM was and when.  Dee Dee details that she called him back the last 3 calls (after running to get out of the rain, after leaving the mail thingy and after TM runs from GZ), but it looks like TM only had 2 incoming calls from Dee Dee during this time.  Unless, one or more of the calls to North Dade weren't to Dee Dee and some of those earlier incoming calls were from Dee Dee while TM was talking to someone else in North Dade.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 23, 2013, 08:54:52 AM
The 15 minutes TM was under shelter and talking on the phone fit the Crump narrative better if he is at The Retreat.  Not somewhere else.

Those phone records...I question when they were accessed originally but TO ME, if the police ask for a password to the account, I would be on my computer sooner than a couple of weeks later to look.  I would have looked that same day or even sooner since I would know they have the phone in evidence.  I would be looking for anything if my child had been shot.

Crump had access to the phone records.
Crump had access to the NEN by apprx (March 13th v 16th) a week before it was released.
Crump produces W8, not to SAO, but to ABC's Matt Gutman.

If Crump had taken her to the SAO immediately, her sworn statement wouldn't have been released for weeks/months later in Discovery and that didn't fit his agenda.

Tracy and Sybrina approached W8 to beg her assistance with LE.
FDLE had to go look for her when she missed her scheduled appointment.
Why the reluctance?  This was her good friend since kindergarden and potential suitor.   IMO, that young woman didn't want to talk.  Period.


Sorry.  I went off on a tangent, probably better suited to the W8 thread.  ((blushes))
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on January 23, 2013, 09:31:33 AM
Have investigators identified Caller X? I doubt it was Chad. I think his call would have been one of the under-a-minute ones, which I'm ignoring.

Not sure we should just ignore the Chad call and time.  There was only one incoming call to TM after leaving the 7-11 that was less than 4 minutes in length and that was the 1 minute call at 7:04.  If Chad called TM, this would have to be the call.  That Chad said he was on his way home and not waiting the rain out at the mail thingy or that a creepy white man was watching him could be relevant.  Not sure if BDLR didn't ask him any followup questions to that phone conversation or that this is all Chad remembered since all we have is a synopsis of that interview.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on January 23, 2013, 01:23:45 PM
I added some, perhaps relevant, comments (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2166.msg105562.html#msg105562) on the Martin phone record thread.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 23, 2013, 03:24:54 PM
Not sure we should just ignore the Chad call and time. 

I didn't say we should ignore it for all time. I said that I was ignoring the short calls, meaning that I was ignoring them for the moment, for the purposes of that post. The post was long enough as it was.

Context, people, please.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on January 23, 2013, 08:17:37 PM
I believe when Chad's call occurred is important to the timeline and route and we'd be remiss not to include it.  Chad says TM said he was on his way home from the store and it was raining.  It seems likely that Chads call is the 1 minute incoming call at 7:04.  I would think if TM was standing at the mail thingy, he would have let Chad know that he was there and he was waiting out the rain not that he was on his way home.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 28, 2013, 05:40:02 AM
Some BccList contributors have a new video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pw4utMiNido) on YouTube. It's 47 minutes. From a first viewing, I would say it is a valuable contribution to the discussion.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 28, 2013, 09:03:32 AM
NMNM is joking again.   The video is worthless so don't bother.  It accepts that the mail thingy under which Trayvon sought shelter is the one at The Retreat at Twin Lakes.  It ends with the speculation that Zimmerman's path on foot was TTL to RVC on the cut through, RVC south to TTL, right on TTL to the dog path and then Zimmerman chased Martin, who for unknown reasons hadn't returned home, north to W#6's lawn.  Definitely not for people as knowledgeable as those who regularly read this forum; the credits at the end show the handles of people who have been banned from posting here.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 28, 2013, 08:14:26 PM
NMNM is joking again.
   

I wouldn't recommend a 47 minute video for a joke. I don't think I would recommend any video as a joke in that way. Rickrolling always struck me as a dumb and pointless prank.

When I have time I will discuss the video in more detail. 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on January 28, 2013, 09:26:13 PM
Some BccList contributors have a new video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pw4utMiNido) on YouTube. It's 47 minutes. From a first viewing, I would say it is a valuable contribution to the discussion.

How much of it, especially any added music, falls under the heading of "editorializing"?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 28, 2013, 11:23:51 PM
How much of it, especially any added music, falls under the heading of "editorializing"?

I think there is a good mix of factual presentation and commentary. Much of the factual material will be familiar. I learned a lot about the clubhouse videos, which is an area I've neglected.

There is some music, but I didn't pay much attention to it.

The level of factual accuracy is pretty high, especially in comparison to most of what has been said and written about the case.

I think they have Zimmerman's residence in the wrong building, but I could be the one mistaken. I'm just relying on Google Earth. Only off by one, so an inconsequential error if it is one.

They attribute to Zimmerman the claim that Martin entered by 1460/1510, which is one of my pet peeves. (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2132.msg103860.html#msg103860)

In a segment labeled speculative, the video has the confrontation begin where the body was found. All the evidence that it happened near the T is ignored, not addressed.

I'm sure there are other errors, but those are the ones I noticed and recall. There's also a fair amount of opinions stated as facts. Probably the worst fault of the video is treating Dee Dee's assertions as if they were uncontested facts.

I don't know what to make of the conclusions drawn from the clubhouse videos. I'm very interested in hearing from people who are knowledgeable about video.
   
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 29, 2013, 02:35:39 AM
I learned a lot about the clubhouse videos, which is an area I've neglected.

Quote
I don't know what to make of the conclusions drawn from the clubhouse videos. I'm very interested in hearing from people who are knowledgeable about video.

I have realized that the analysis of the clubhouse videos is a development of the one discussed on this post, (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2017.msg96642.html#msg96642) by unitron, in answer to one by RickyJim.

Quote
I'll be curious to see what the site author does upon getting access to time-stamped versions of those clubhouse videos and doing the 18 minute correction, instead of having to work backwards from when the blue and red flashing lights show up.

The answer to that is on the video, if unitron is still interested. From the little I know about the earlier work, I don't see any revision.

I don't recall seeing this line of work discussed on the forum since that post. Have any pro-defense people taken it seriously enough to criticize it? DiwataMan? 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 29, 2013, 05:00:29 AM
How much of it, especially any added music, falls under the heading of "editorializing"?

Hey, what are you asking me for? I just found out you were almost in the credits. (http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/diaspora2/#comment-366)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DiwataMan on January 29, 2013, 06:56:34 AM
I have realized that the analysis of the clubhouse videos is a development of the one discussed on this post, (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2017.msg96642.html#msg96642) by unitron, in answer to one by RickyJim.

The answer to that is on the video, if unitron is still interested. From the little I know about the earlier work, I don't see any revision.

I don't recall seeing this line of work discussed on the forum since that post. Have any pro-defense people taken it seriously enough to criticize it? DiwataMan?

http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2022.msg105676.html#msg105676

http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2022.msg105730.html#msg105730

http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2022.msg105747.html#msg105747
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 29, 2013, 07:41:12 AM
Maybe I was too harsh on the bcclist video.  There might be some value in the first part which I will watch again.  IIRC, they make the claim that Zimmerman never parked in the space in the front of the clubhouse, as he said he did in the reenactment.  They suggest he drove back and forth in front of the clubhouse.   To be in sync with the way I interpret the NEN call, Zimmerman's car trip to the cut through should be at about 7:11 PM and last maybe 10 to 15 seconds.  I think they had it start earlier and last longer with the close encounter between Martin and the Ridgeline happening during that journey.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on January 29, 2013, 01:07:03 PM
Hey, what are you asking me for? I just found out you were almost in the credits. (http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/diaspora2/#comment-366)

Thanks for the heads up.  I haven't actually posted in that particular thread yet (though now I guess I have to), so I wasn't getting emails about it the way I was about the previous one of which this was a continuation.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: TalkLeft on January 29, 2013, 04:07:16 PM
Some BccList contributors have a new video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pw4utMiNido) on YouTube. It's 47 minutes. From a first viewing, I would say it is a valuable contribution to the discussion.

I disagree. It's by a biased source. It is filled with assumptions and personal observations rather than fact, and bases its conclusions on suppositions.  I didn't watch the whole thing but the little I saw claims George didn't pull in front of the clubhouse,  based on the author's subjective interpretation of the clubhouse videos.

I'll ask again  that you not bring material from biased internet speculators here.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: TalkLeft on January 29, 2013, 04:24:15 PM
On Chad's phone call. I think it's the 7:04 call because you can make out the 407 area code in the photo displayed by ABC News (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/phonerecords22_zps7f755ac7.jpg).

Here's another view (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/shortcut9_zps8f2ce2eb.jpg) of the shortcut by Taafe's house. I believe this is the shortcut Trayvon would have used, and that's why when George first saw him, he was standing in the grass in the front portion of Taafe's -- he had entered through the shortcut. The photo also shows the other shortcut.


(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/firstview.jpg)

The first shortcut is  here (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/1350rvc.jpg).

See also here (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/shortcut9_zps8f2ce2eb.jpg) and here  (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/shortcutview856.jpg).


Added: This also shows the two shortcuts. (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/shortcut8_zps67484566-1_zps789023af.jpg)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 29, 2013, 07:14:14 PM
Maybe I was too harsh on the bcclist video.  There might be some value in the first part which I will watch again. 
No, I was right the first time.  Their basic assumption is that it all started when Zimmerman, driving east past the clubhouse on RVC, saw Martin in the mail kiosk and eventually turned into TTL past Martin in the kiosk.  I doubt Zimmerman, from the driver's side of his car on RVC, would have even noticed Martin in the kiosk and concluded he was suspicious.  Their claim that video evidence shows that Zimmerman was not in the clubhouse parking lot at 7:09:34 when the NEN call started needs much more documentation before I would accept it. 

The narrator said that the cameras only took one frame a second.  I would like to know the shutter speed these cameras were set at and how they were synched with each other.  The entire premise of using them to determine what traffic passed by the clubhouse may be faulty.  We can discuss these issues without referring to the video again.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 29, 2013, 08:21:44 PM
From the other direction here (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/1350rvc.jpg).

Uh, Jeralyn, you do realize that is 1350/1410?

Part of the back of the 1400 building is visible, including the sliding doors of 1410, 1420, and 1430, and the fence between 1430 and 1440. The back door of 1440 is obscured by a tree, and the last two units are also behind the tree or out of the frame. In short, not a bit of 1460 is visible, much less the gap between 1460 and 1510.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 29, 2013, 09:01:34 PM
To be in sync with the way I interpret the NEN call, Zimmerman's car trip to the cut through should be at about 7:11 PM and last maybe 10 to 15 seconds.

Sgt. Smith took 41 seconds in the reenactment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) (2:55-3:36). He was backing out of the clubhouse for the first 7 seconds. After 15 seconds he was just starting to turn onto TTL.

If Zimmerman parked at the clubhouse, I think he would have to be backing out within a few seconds after the NEN call began recording. He would need to round the bend on TTL by about 7:10:15, to get Martin in his headlights and say 'He's here now, and he's just staring.'

I don't see any reason Zimmerman couldn't have been parked on TTL before the NEN call began recording.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 29, 2013, 09:22:43 PM
I don't see any reason Zimmerman couldn't have been parked on TTL before the NEN call began recording.
I think it is clear he was on RVC at the clubhouse at the start.
Quote
0:04:38 - Hey, we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. Uh, it’s
Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is one-eleven Retreat View Circle.
He still seems to be there a minute into the call.
Quote
0:55:82 - He's near the clubhouse right now?
0:58:01- Yeah, now he's coming towards me [possible door lock].
But after a minute and a half you hear noises suggesting car movement, a complaint about assholes always getting away (implying he was not just going to let this asshole get away by sitting in the clubhouse parking lot) and 10 seconds later he does try to give directions to the where the car (presumably) was parked on TTL.
Quote
1:34:25- Okay [turns in seat]. These assholes, they always get away. Yep [power window switch or gear
shift and four footsteps/fade].
1:45:65 - When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you'd – would
go past the clubhouse— [he's trying to explain his location on Twin Trees, southeast of the clubhouse,
not at the clubhouse itself].
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on January 29, 2013, 10:15:45 PM
What's the point of having a gated community where you can walk into half of the back yards right off the main drag?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 30, 2013, 04:22:02 AM
I think it is clear he was on RVC at the clubhouse at the start.

Nonsense. Zimmerman didn't say a word about his own location.

Look at Zimmerman's earlier suspicious person calls.

Logs (http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/911CallHistory.pdf)

8/3/11 (http://www.seminolesheriff.org/administration/SiteData/MediaFiles/Zimmerman%2020112152298.mp3) P. 39. One burglary suspect. 

8/6/11 (http://www.seminolesheriff.org/administration/SiteData/MediaFiles/Zimmerman%2020112182271.mp3) P. 40. Two burglary suspects.

10/1/11 (http://www.seminolesheriff.org/administration/SiteData/MediaFiles/Zimmerman%2020112740087.mp3) P. 42. Two men loitering in a car.

2/2/12 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490588/data/3/-/oq9q6s/-/Call-6.null) P. 45. Suspicious man at 1460 RVC.

Zimmerman gave the clubhouse address for all of these calls except the last one. (The Event Report for the first one, 8/3/11, has 1110, but that wasn't Zimmerman's error. On the audio you can hear him give the correct address.)

The 8/3/11 call was the first suspicious person call Zimmerman made after he and Shellie moved into RATL. Zimmerman explained why he used the clubhouse address.

Quote
Dispatcher: OK. And what's your address out there?

Zimmerman: I'd rather not give out my address, because he's obviously in the neighborhood. But it's Retreat View Circle. You can use one one one one, which is the clubhouse.

In later calls Zimmerman gave the clubhouse address without the explanation.

The address was the first question the dispatcher asked on the first three calls. On the fourth call, 2/2/12, Zimmerman volunteered the address the first time he spoke, as he did on 2/26.

The 2/2 call is the incident Zimmerman mentioned in his SPD interviews as contributing to his suspicion of Martin, because he saw Martin in front of the same house. On that call he decided to give the address of the residence he was concerned about.

Why didn't Zimmerman give 1460 RVC as the incident location on 2/26? I can think of two reasons.

One would be that Zimmerman made up the story of sighting Martin in front of that house.

On the NEN call, Zimmerman never said anything about a house that was sensitive because of a previous incident. He didn't mention houses at all when he first explained to the dispatcher what had aroused his suspicions. This was the entire indictment:

Quote
It's raining, and he's just walking around, looking about.

No one need remind me that Zimmerman also said Martin looked like he was 'on drugs'. Zimmerman explained that in his last SPD interview. It was an inference from the 'looking about', not a distinct observation (2/29-3, 1:32-41).

In the story of first sighting Martin at 1460 RVC, Zimmerman seems to have gotten a good look at him. As he drove past, he fortuitiously had to slow down for a vehicle backing out (2/29-1, 8:22-25). And Martin looked at him (2/26-1, 4:10-26; 2/27R, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) 0:51-1:01; 2/27V, (http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/statements/video_interview_cvsa_0227.asf) 25:36-26:02, 6:44:13-39, 2/29-1, 8:03-53; 2/29-3, 0:51-1:18).

Martin would have been standing under a streetlight. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7893973242/in/set-72157631083078146)

On the NEN recording, to me it sounds for all the world as if Zimmerman got his first close look at Martin during the call.

If Zimmerman told the truth about the first sighting at 1460 RVC, the only reason I can see for him not giving that address to the dispatcher would be if he knew Martin wasn't there anymore. (That wouldn't explain why he didn't mention the sensitive house at all.)

This would be consistent with Zimmerman's statements, but not with the popular hypothesis that Martin was coming from 1460 RVC when Zimmerman said 'Now he's coming towards me'.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) of SPD interviews.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 30, 2013, 04:42:00 AM
I think it is clear he was on RVC at the clubhouse at the start.

He still seems to be there a minute into the call.

But after a minute and a half you hear noises suggesting car movement, a complaint about assholes always getting away (implying he was not just going to let this asshole get away by sitting in the clubhouse parking lot) and 10 seconds later he does try to give directions to the where the car (presumably) was parked on TTL.

Your interpretation of a recording doesn't change the laws of physics.

Backing out of the clubhouse, turning right on TTL, and following TTL around the next bend, is not a 15 second drive.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 30, 2013, 05:04:42 AM
I'll ask again  that you not bring material from biased internet speculators here.

I would have to stop posting here myself.

If you do not want that link on your site, please delete it.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 30, 2013, 06:13:49 AM
It's by a biased source.

Of the blogs that follow the Zimmerman case, which are the unbiased ones? Point them out to me, please.

I recall someone, not so long ago, claiming that you were biased. Who could that have been? Who would be so imperinent? I shall rack my brain.

I am not neutral or unbiased.  I view all cases  through the lens of the defense.  I strive for factual and legal accuracy, but I am not unbiased in how I view the facts and interpret the law.

I didn't watch the whole thing but the little I saw claims George didn't pull in front of the clubhouse,  based on the author's subjective interpretation of the clubhouse videos.

I agree. The video presents subjective interpretations of the clubhouse videos, much like certain subjective interpretations (http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf) of the non-vocal noises on the NEN recording, 'published with permission by TalkLeft.com'.

Quite a lot of speculation on this forum has been based on subjective interpretation of those noises.

Of the two, the videos seem more promising to me. I don't know if there is one of those noises that hasn't been interpreted at least two ways, and in any case I don't feel qualified to have an opinion myself. On the videos, I have no doubt that the moving lights, or most of them, are the lights of passing vehicles.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on January 30, 2013, 07:39:08 AM
Nonsense. Zimmerman didn't say a word about his own location.

Look at Zimmerman's earlier suspicious person calls.

Logs (http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/911CallHistory.pdf)

8/3/11 (http://www.seminolesheriff.org/administration/SiteData/MediaFiles/Zimmerman%2020112152298.mp3) P. 39. One burglary suspect. 

8/6/11 (http://www.seminolesheriff.org/administration/SiteData/MediaFiles/Zimmerman%2020112182271.mp3) P. 40. Two burglary suspects.

10/1/11 (http://www.seminolesheriff.org/administration/SiteData/MediaFiles/Zimmerman%2020112740087.mp3) P. 42. Two men loitering in a car.

2/2/12 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490588/data/3/-/oq9q6s/-/Call-6.null) P. 45. Suspicious man at 1460 RVC.

Zimmerman gave the clubhouse address for all of these calls except the last one. (The Event Report for the first one, 8/3/11, has 1110, but that wasn't Zimmerman's error. On the audio you can hear him give the correct address.)

The 8/3/11 call was the first suspicious person call Zimmerman made after he and Shellie moved into RATL. Zimmerman explained why he used the clubhouse address.

In later calls Zimmerman gave the clubhouse address without the explanation.

The address was the first question the dispatcher asked on the first three calls. On the fourth call, 2/2/12, Zimmerman volunteered the address the first time he spoke, as he did on 2/26.

The 2/2 call is the incident Zimmerman mentioned in his SPD interviews as contributing to his suspicion of Martin, because he saw Martin in front of the same house. On that call he decided to give the address of the residence he was concerned about.

Why didn't Zimmerman give 1460 RVC as the incident location on 2/26? I can think of two reasons.

One would be that Zimmerman made up the story of sighting Martin in front of that house.

On the NEN call, Zimmerman never said anything about a house that was sensitive because of a previous incident. He didn't mention houses at all when he first explained to the dispatcher what had aroused his suspicions. This was the entire indictment:

No one need remind me that Zimmerman also said Martin looked like he was 'on drugs'. Zimmerman explained that in his last SPD interview. It was an inference from the 'looking about', not a distinct observation (2/29-3, 1:32-41).

In the story of first sighting Martin at 1460 RVC, Zimmerman seems to have gotten a good look at him. As he drove past, he fortuitiously had to slow down for a vehicle backing out (2/29-1, 8:22-25). And Martin looked at him (2/26-1, 4:10-26; 2/27R, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) 0:51-1:01; 2/27V, (http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/statements/video_interview_cvsa_0227.asf) 25:36-26:02, 6:44:13-39, 2/29-1, 8:03-53; 2/29-3, 0:51-1:18).

Martin would have been standing under a streetlight. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7893973242/in/set-72157631083078146)

On the NEN recording, to me it sounds for all the world as if Zimmerman got his first close look at Martin during the call.

If Zimmerman told the truth about the first sighting at 1460 RVC, the only reason I can see for him not giving that address to the dispatcher would be if he knew Martin wasn't there anymore. (That wouldn't explain why he didn't mention the sensitive house at all.)

This would be consistent with Zimmerman's statements, but not with the popular hypothesis that Martin was coming from 1460 RVC when Zimmerman said 'Now he's coming towards me'.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right) of SPD interviews.

Thanks for this information.  I had always believed that from the information given by GZ on the NEN that he wasn't parked at the clubhouse when the call started.  I had always assumed this meant that he had already pulled out of the clubhouse.  From what you show here, giving out the clubhouse address doesn't really tell us much about his exact location.  IT could be he hadn't gotten there yet.  It could be that he was there.  It could be that he had already left there. 

As for the video provided, I think they are interesting, but inconclusive.  The vehicle captured from the clubhouse camera facing RVC doesn't appear to be a Ridgeline to me.  There is no window where their should be a window, there doesn't appear to be enough body between the top of the back tire and the bed and the back wheel well appears rounded, but on the Ridgeline it is square.  The lights and when they appear on various videos is interesting, but we can't tell whether they came from one vehicle, multiple vehicles or if any of the vehicles are GZ's. 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 30, 2013, 09:00:10 AM
What's the point of having a gated community where you can walk into half of the back yards right off the main drag?
My impression is that before the housing bubble burst, TRTL was an expensive place which was well maintained.  Can anybody confirm or refute?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 30, 2013, 09:10:13 AM
My impression is that before the housing bubble burst, TRTL was an expensive place which was well maintained. 

I've seen a number of news reports saying The Retreat was hit hard by the housing collapse. So, yes, the units were more expensive before then. I don't recall anything about quality of maintenance.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: annoyedbeyond on January 30, 2013, 10:12:17 AM
I think it is clear he was on RVC at the clubhouse at the start.He still seems to be there a minute into the call.But after a minute and a half you hear noises suggesting car movement, a complaint about assholes always getting away (implying he was not just going to let this asshole get away by sitting in the clubhouse parking lot) and 10 seconds later he does try to give directions to the where the car (presumably) was parked on TTL.

There was no such implication, only an inference by a biased listener. Kindly refrain.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on January 30, 2013, 11:22:31 AM
I disagree. It's by a biased source. It is filled with assumptions and personal observations rather than fact, and bases its conclusions on suppositions.  I didn't watch the whole thing but the little I saw claims George didn't pull in front of the clubhouse,  based on the author's subjective interpretation of the clubhouse videos.

I'll ask again  that you not bring material from biased internet speculators here.

Is it even possible for any interpretation of the clubhouse videos to be non-subjective?

It seems pretty much unavoidable that it's a Plato's Cave situation.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 30, 2013, 11:55:24 AM
Nonsense. Zimmerman didn't say a word about his own location.

True, but what would be the advantage to lie about it later?  Similarly lying about seeing Martin acting suspiciously in front of Taafe's house?  Zimmerman gives the following on the third Serino tape when they played the NEN call for him:
Quote
(plays tape 0:39 to 0:48)
Singleton: Can you just pause that for a minute? OK, when you explained it to me, you said you had pulled over initially at the clubhouse, correct?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: Now you’re saying he’s coming up to your car. Does that mean you’ve already, at this point in the tape, you’re already on Twin Tree, the street you didn’t know the name of at the time?
Zimmerman: Um, no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
Singleton: OK, but he’s walking up to your car now, right?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton:  On the tape. Cause you’re saying he’s walking up.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re on the corner.
Zimmerman: No, ma’am. I’m at the clubhouse.
...
(plays tape 1:03 to 1:16)
Singleton: Have you moved yet?
Zimmerman: I don’t think so.
Singleton: You’re still in front of the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: I think so.
...
(plays tape 1:20 to 1:28)
Singleton: OK, where are you at now? Are you still in front of the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: I don’t remember.
...
(plays tape 1:34 to 1:50)
Serino: What’s happening now? Are you guys walking now, is he walking?
Zimmerman: No, that’s, I was parked where I could see him now.
Serino: So you’re…
Singleton: OK, so you’re definitely not in front of the clubhouse any more, at this point?
Zimmerman: No.
The last No means, I am not in front of the clubhouse.  Do the laws of physics allow him to get from parking lot to cut through between 1:16 and 1:50?

I listened to his previous NEN calls with amazement.  There is no sign of the him acting impulsively and trying to keep the supposed perps in view.  He seems to be quite content in meeting the cops at the back entrance and letting them do the searching.  So what got into him on 2/26/12?  :o
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on January 30, 2013, 11:59:01 AM
My impression is that before the housing bubble burst, TRTL was an expensive place which was well maintained.  Can anybody confirm or refute?

You can't maintain a fence that was never installed in the first place.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on January 30, 2013, 12:04:37 PM
I have not listened to any of the GZ's other NEN calls.  Was he in his vehicle when he made these other calls?  Did the dispatcher make requests asking GZ to let him know if the suspect does anything or ask which whey they were running?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: AghastInFL on January 30, 2013, 12:13:07 PM
What's the point of having a gated community where you can walk into half of the back yards right off the main drag?
The gates are intended to limit public access and vehicular traffic, they are not meant as a secure lockdown; Secure neighborhoods have guards. Many neighborhoods here in Florida are similarly built and in most pedestrians have unrestricted access it is common to see unfenced areas such as TRATL.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 30, 2013, 12:22:30 PM
I have not listened to any of the GZ's other NEN calls.  Was he in his vehicle when he made these other calls?  Did the dispatcher make requests asking GZ to let him know if the suspect does anything or ask which whey they were running?
They are all much shorter than the 2/26 call.  It is not clear if he was in his car or not.  Are you trying to blame Sean Nofke for this incident?  >:( I think "We don't need you to do that." should have abrogated any silly idea that Zimmerman might have had in his head that he was supposed to run into the dark to keep Martin in view.  There was nothing about hunting for an address on the previous tapes.  Zimmerman was very take charge about where the cops should meet him.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on January 30, 2013, 12:58:13 PM
I don't blame the dispatcher for anything that occurred (though I'd bet  that team Crump will do just that at some point after GZ's case is closed).  Sean was doing what good dispatchers should do which is gather as much information as he can and keep the caller calm.  I merely suggest that GZ was asked to help the police on this call and I wonder if previous dispatchers asked for such help. 

I'm sure we are all aware of this, but the "we don't need you to do that" comment came after GZ was out of his vehicle and presumably somewhere around the 'T'.  IS there any evidence that GZ ran into the dark to keep view on TM after this statement was made?  Sure doesn't sound like it for the last 2 minutes of the NEN call.

On the other calls with GZ agreeing to meet cops by the back entrance, were the suspects still in view or had they already fled? 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 30, 2013, 01:52:57 PM
"We don't need to do that." came 15 seconds after Zimmerman left the truck, probably not enough time to have reached the T.  After that he kept moving ahead in the dark to the T and RVC to get the address the dispatcher hadn't asked for, etc.   I would be interested in hearing opinions from others on whether they, like me, find a totally different Zimmerman, as far as what a neighborhood watchman is supposed to do, on the 2/26 call as compared to the previous ones.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 30, 2013, 01:56:18 PM
I have not listened to any of the GZ's other NEN calls.

I suggest you listen to the four suspicious person calls I linked. As RJ says, they aren't long.

Quote
Did the dispatcher make requests asking GZ to let him know if the suspect does anything or ask which whey they were running?

10/1/11 (http://www.seminolesheriff.org/administration/SiteData/MediaFiles/Zimmerman%2020112740087.mp3) Two men loitering in a car.
Quote
Dispatcher: Can you still see them?

Zimmerman: No, ma'am. I didn't want to attract attention.

2/2/12 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490588/data/3/-/oq9q6s/-/Call-6.null) Suspicious man at 1460 RVC.

The dispatcher asked 'And what is he doing?' Zimmerman gave a long reply, in the middle of which he said 'I don't want to approach him, personally.'

Listening to the 2/2 call, I feel it's a very different story from the one Zimmerman told Serino and Singleton about the same incident. It's like the NEN call that way.

Zimmerman told the investigators he was walking his dog at time of the 2/2 call (2/29-1, 4:36-5:02).
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 30, 2013, 02:05:17 PM
I would be interested in hearing opinions from others on whether they, like me, find a totally different Zimmerman, as far as what a neighborhood watchman is supposed to do, on the 2/26 call as compared to the previous ones.

2/26-1, 9:51-10:03
Quote
Zimmerman: I had called before, and the police had come out. But, these guys know the neighborhood very well, and they would cut in between buildings and lose -

Singleton: You're saying "these guys." Who are "these guys"?

Zimmerman: The people coming in, the burglars.

I think Zimmerman felt that doing it by the book wasn't working. Maybe he decided, even before that night, to try a new approach.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 30, 2013, 02:16:11 PM
2/26-1, 9:51-10:03
I think Zimmerman felt that doing it by the book wasn't working. Maybe he decided, even before that night, to try a new approach.

I doubt that.  Once a leopard, always a leopard.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 30, 2013, 02:28:37 PM
Once a leopard, always a leopard.

Old dogs can learn new tricks. The adage is a myth.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on January 30, 2013, 02:41:20 PM
"We don't need to do that." came 15 seconds after Zimmerman left the truck, probably not enough time to have reached the T.  After that he kept moving ahead in the dark to the T and RVC to get the address the dispatcher hadn't asked for, etc.   I would be interested in hearing opinions from others on whether they, like me, find a totally different Zimmerman, as far as what a neighborhood watchman is supposed to do, on the 2/26 call as compared to the previous ones.

About 19 seconds if you count until GZ says OK.  Depends how close he was to the corner in TTL.  At an average walking pace, he would have covered about 55 feet.  Walking briskly maybe 90-100 feet.  I did say around the 'T", not at the 'T".  If I had to try and nail it down, I think he got to the T and got his first good look down the dog walk about the time he says "He ran" which is 8-9 seconds later.

I think the top of the 'T' was somewhat illuminated by his truck lights (until they shut off automatically) and the lights on TTL.  I personally wouldn't call walking along the top of the 'T'  running into the dark after TM, since according to GZ, TM ran down the dog walk, not to RVC.

As for the address, GZ and the dispatcher were discussing directions to where he was when the conversation was interrupted by TM running.  Then before hanging up, the dispatcher asks "where are you going to meet them at" and asked "what address are you parked in front of".  The dispatcher did ask for an address and GZ didn't have one for his vehicle.  He says he decided to get the nearest one he had.

I don't have the chance to listen to the calls now, but will when I can.  From the responses I've gotten, GZ wasn't in his vehicle on the other occasions and there weren't any instructions from dispatchers to let them know if the suspects did anything or asking him where they were running.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 30, 2013, 03:14:56 PM
From the responses I've gotten, GZ wasn't in his vehicle on the other occasions and there weren't any instructions from dispatchers to let them know if the suspects did anything or asking him where they were running.

I don't believe Zimmerman's actions on the night of 2/26 were motivated by the distinction between 'Just let me know if this guy does anything else,' and 'What is he doing?'

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 30, 2013, 04:16:45 PM
2/26-1, 9:51-10:03
I think Zimmerman felt that doing it by the book wasn't working. Maybe he decided, even before that night, to try a new approach.
During the third 2/29 tape:
Quote
Singleton: Didn’t you just tell us in there that a week earlier they made an arrest?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: So they don’t always get away.
Zimmerman: No.
Serino: Good point.
I can't find Zimmerman talking about an arrest the previous week.  Was it off mike?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 12:44:28 AM
I can't find Zimmerman talking about an arrest the previous week. 

Zimmerman said the man he saw at 1460 RVC on 2/2 committed a burglary a week later, and was eventually arrested for it (2/29-1, 7:18-40). I think that's what Serino had in mind.

Zimmerman might have been more specific about the arrest date off mike, but I think Serino just had a jumbled recollection of Zimmerman using the word 'week'. It didn't really matter if the arrest was a week before or two weeks before.

This part is interesting.

2/29-1, 7:31-38
Quote
But one of the maintenance guys saw him, and was able to give the police a direction of where he was going.

Inspiration?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 03:23:02 AM
From the responses I've gotten, GZ wasn't in his vehicle on the other occasions and there weren't any instructions from dispatchers to let them know if the suspects did anything or asking him where they were running.

It sounds like you think Zimmerman is a Manchurian Candidate, who is triggered into action by an exact set of words.

I think the best analogy for 2/26/12 is 10/1/11 (http://www.seminolesheriff.org/administration/SiteData/MediaFiles/Zimmerman%2020112740087.mp3) (p. 42 of the logs (http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/911CallHistory.pdf)), the two men loitering in a car. Before the dispatcher asked if Zimmerman could see the men, she asked if had gotten the plate number, which he had not.

If Zimmerman's disposition on 10/1/11 had been the same as on 2/26/12, he would have gone to get the plate number, and 'keep an eye' on the loitering men.

I suppose we must agree to disagree on whether 'Which way is he running?' is reasonably interpretable as 'follow him and report on future changes in direction'. I can only say that in 50+ years before now, I've never heard such an expression interpreted in such a way.

But if the dispatcher saying those particular words was the crucial motivating factor, why didn't Zimmerman ever say so? Zimmerman didn't mention Martin running until Singleton asked him about it. Even then, Zimmerman stuck to the story of the Great Address Hunt.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on January 31, 2013, 07:21:56 AM
I think the dispatchers words played a part in GZ's actions that evening (you forgot to mention "which way is he running" right before GZ exited his vehicle).  I also think that crime was an issue in the neighborhood and that guys were getting away also played a part in GZ's actions.  I don't believe GZ wanted any sort of confrontation with TM or he would have gotten out of his vehicle as TM approached or walked near by, not after TM ran out of sight.  I think its possible GZ strayed from the top of the 'T' to try to locate TM, though I see no evidence to contradict his assertion that he didn't.  I find the narrative that GZ prevented TM from returning home or that he was able to force a confrontation with him in an open area impossible to believe unless TM was impaired by drugs.

On the 10/1 incident, was GZ in a vehicle or on foot and did the dispatcher ask him to get a plate number?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 31, 2013, 08:28:33 AM
But if the dispatcher saying those particular words was the crucial motivating factor, why didn't Zimmerman ever say so? Zimmerman didn't mention Martin running until Singleton asked him about it. Even then, Zimmerman stuck to the story of the Great Address Hunt.

Do you have a picture showing Zimmerman's most probable location when he told the dispatcher "Okay" in reply to "We don't need you to do that."?  If he parked where he told Singleton, I think he would be only a few feet in from TTL on the cut through, not even near yet to the front of the houses of the witnesses who lived on TTL, let alone the T.  This makes his story of having to go to RVC to get an address or leftwig's belief that he still felt obligated to the dispatcher to look for Martin, even more ridiculous.

And this from the first 2/29 interview where he was describing the 2/2 incident:
Quote
Zimmerman: And, ah, so I walked past him and I called non-emergency, and, ah, I got under a streetlight, and they asked me if I could see where he went, where he went inside the house and I said, no. And they said,  can you get to where you can see and I said, I really don’t want to move closer. Um, oh, and they needed the address. And I don’t know why, adrenalin was rushing, a thousand things went through my mind. I gave them what I thought was my address

He got it right when he said he told the dispatcher Rene, on 2/2 that he didn't want to move closer.  He might have given his address early in the second redacted part of the audio.  But this clearly shows a different Nightwatch Captain Zimmerman.  And the fact that the perp was arrested between 2/2 and 2/29 makes the change in behavior even harder to understand.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 31, 2013, 09:35:54 AM
On the 2/2 call, I think I hear some interesting Zimmerman directions:
Quote
If you have an officer available, I'd probably have him stop on Reinhardt across the street from Walter Reed's Bentley and go around the back".
Does this accurately describe the street outside TRTL near Taafe's house?  Apparently Zimmerman was also better at remembering street names three weeks earlier.   :D
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on January 31, 2013, 10:09:42 AM
On the 2/2 call, I think I hear some interesting Zimmerman directions:Does this accurately describe the street outside TRTL near Taafe's house?  Apparently Zimmerman was also better at remembering street names three weeks earlier.   :D

Those directions are interesting, in that if some guy named Walter Reed has a Bentley dealership in Sanford Google doesn't seem to find it.

Also, the street outside RaTL closest to ol' Frank's place is Oregon Ave.

Reinhart doesn't get all that close to the neighborhood, especially not the back gate part, at least if I can believe the Google map.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 11:13:56 AM
On the 10/1 incident, was GZ in a vehicle or on foot

I don't know. Why would that matter?

He indicated that before calling he had moved to a place out of sight from the loiterers. He may have gone into the clubhouse.

Quote
and did the dispatcher ask him to get a plate number?

She did not, just as Noffke did not ask Zimmerman to get out of his truck and follow Martin.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 11:30:07 AM
Those directions are interesting, in that if some guy named Walter Reed has a Bentley dealership in Sanford Google doesn't seem to find it.

There's Evolution Auto, 1300 Rinehart Rd.

It's a long way from RATL.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on January 31, 2013, 11:56:35 AM
It sounds like you think Zimmerman is a Manchurian Candidate, who is triggered into action by an exact set of words.

If I said that, you'd accuse me of using a strawman.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 11:57:41 AM
On the 2/2 call, I think I hear some interesting Zimmerman directions:
Quote
If you have an officer available, I'd probably have him stop on Reinhardt across the street from Walter Reed's Bentley and go around the back".

Does this accurately describe the street outside TRTL near Taafe's house? 

It seems like Zimmerman was directing the officer to enter by cutting across Colonial Village Apts., which is between RATL and Rinehart Rd. There are two businesses across Rinehart Rd. from Colonial Village, a Car Max Auto Superstore, and a motorcycle shop called Seminole Power Sports. One of them could have replaced the Walter Reed's.

If Zimmerman meant what he said, he was setting that cop up for a long walk.

The only business in the area on Oregon Ave. is Kohl's. Across Oregon Ave. from Kohl's would be in Colonial Village, fairly close to Taaffe's home.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 12:37:09 PM
If Zimmerman meant what he said, he was setting that cop up for a long walk.

Zimmerman might have meant for the officer to drive into and through Colonial Village. There's a Colonial Village parking area close to Taaffe's home. See here (http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/shortcut9_zps8f2ce2eb.jpg) and here. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7698710884/in/set-72157630845830014/lightbox/)

But the entrance to Colonial Village is on Oregon Ave. The businesses across Rinehart Rd. are opposite the back of the complex.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 01:05:53 PM
He might have given his address early in the second redacted part of the audio.

Zimmerman didn't give his own address, 1950, on that occasion. He gave an address one digit off from his, 1960, and later called again to correct it to 1460. Audio of the second call doesn't seem to be available, but it is included in the same Event Report (http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/911CallHistory.pdf) (p. 45).

The Event Report has 1960 as the incident location.

The last time we discussed these calls, Jeralyn posted an unredacted transcript of 2/2. Later I'll take the time to find it.

I'm puzzled at what the point of your statement is. It seems like an irrelevant observation dropped into the middle of the paragraph.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 01:11:25 PM
Reinhart doesn't get all that close to the neighborhood, especially not the back gate part, at least if I can believe the Google map.

This is the Taaffe incident, 2/2/12 (http://www.wesh.com/blob/view/-/15490588/data/3/-/oq9q6s/-/Call-6.null). The one involving the back gate is the one about two suspects from a previous burglary, 8/6/11 (http://www.seminolesheriff.org/administration/SiteData/MediaFiles/Zimmerman%2020112182271.mp3).
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on January 31, 2013, 01:31:23 PM
I'm puzzled at what the point of your statement is. It seems like an irrelevant observation dropped into the middle of the paragraph.
Zimmerman told Serino he had given out his address on the 2/2 call.  I didn't hear it there so I guessed it my be on a redacted portion.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 01:48:03 PM
Zimmerman told Serino he had given out his address on the 2/2 call. 

That's not what he said.

I had to listen to that part several times, and check the Event Report, before I was sure I had the story straight.

Zimmerman said he gave the dispatcher 'what I thought was my address'. He meant 1960 RVC. Zimmerman's address is 1950 RVC.

In the audio of the call, the first redaction is Zimmerman giving the 1960 address, and the second redaction is the dispatcher reading it back.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on January 31, 2013, 02:16:29 PM
I don't know. Why would that matter?

You are suggesting that he acted differently on 2/26.  Maybe its just me, but following in a vehicle or getting out of that vehicle after the suspect flees would be much different than walking up to an occupied vehicle to get plates.  Do we really have to wonder why his actions may have been different?

Quote
She did not, just as Noffke did not ask Zimmerman to get out of his truck and follow Martin.

Never said he did.  He did however ask for information that could only be obtained by GZ getting out of his truck to see where Martin went.   I still see no explanation for why someone would think GZ went looking for a confrontation with TM when he could have had that at several other moments prior to TM running.

We are both speculating, but our speculation is irrelevant, because whatever prompted GZ to get out of his vehicle doesn't matter. 

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on January 31, 2013, 03:27:56 PM
I still see no explanation for why someone would think GZ went looking for a confrontation with TM when he could have had that at several other moments prior to TM running.

Maybe no one has rushed to explain that because it's a point you dropped gratuitously into a discussion about something else.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: whonoze on January 31, 2013, 09:59:39 PM
I still see no explanation for why someone would think GZ went looking for a confrontation with TM when he could have had that at several other moments prior to TM running.

I, for one, do not think GZ went looking for a 'confrontation' when he left his truck. I doubt he had any concrete plan other than finding out what his 'suspect' was up to. I also think he was afraid of Trayvon, thinking him to be some sort of dangerous hoodlum, until the point where Trayvon ran away from him, which led him to feel empowered as to having the upper hand in the situation. All speculation of course, but it is an explanation.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 01, 2013, 01:27:18 AM
Whonoze.
Quote
"until the point where Trayvon ran away from him, which led him to feel empowered as to having the upper hand in the situation."

How do you have the upper hand on a person when that person has run away from you?  That seems kind of contradictory.  IMO, of course, but TO ME the person who has successfully evaded a person would be the one with the upper hand.

And I suspect that both of our posts will be deleted for speculation.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 05:28:41 AM
How do you have the upper hand on a person when that person has run away from you?  That seems kind of contradictory.

Perhaps "upper hand" was not the right phrase. I meant that GZ was initially afraid of TM, and that fear dissipated when TM ran, leading GZ to conclude that TM was afraid of him.

The question I answered was necessarily speculative. I'm not trying to break the rules, just offer an explanation where one was requested.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Kyreth on February 01, 2013, 06:31:26 AM
That's pretty much my thought.  George would have been more nervous of Trayvon when he had his hand in his waistband, circling George's vehicle...but once Trayvon was running away, there's really no reason to assume George would remotely expect (or intend) to meet up with him face to face.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on February 01, 2013, 06:52:21 AM
Try as we may, Zimmerman's actions defy explanation.  He didn't want to identify himself to Martin, when the latter was "checking him out" out of "fear" but unlike his behavior on previous incidents, discussed here recently, he followed somebody he thought suspicious into a dark area where he could be ambushed.  Late in the NEN call, when he said he thought Martin might be nearby, he refused to wait on well lit RVC for the cops (even though he later implied that was his reason for going there), but headed back on the dark cut through.  I don't regard these things in the slightest as proving guilt, just severe incompetence and stupidity.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Kyreth on February 01, 2013, 07:02:57 AM
Late in the NEN call, when he said he thought Martin might be nearby

Just to clarify here, he at no point says he thinks Martin might be nearby.  He says he doesn't know where he is.

The difference in meaning is subtle but distinct and important enough to be clear on what he said IMO.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on February 01, 2013, 07:11:38 AM
As far as this discussion goes, there is no real difference in saying he doesn't want to give out his home address because he does not know where the guy is with saying he might be near.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: annoyedbeyond on February 01, 2013, 07:49:29 AM
RJ, you stated something that's flatly not true, then tried to weasel out of it.

There's a difference between not knowing (which is what GZ actually said, isn't it?) and you saying he knew TM was nearby.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 01, 2013, 08:37:03 AM
There's a difference between not knowing (which is what GZ actually said, isn't it?) and you saying he knew TM was nearby.

That's not what RJ said.

RJ was right. In context, 'I don't know where this kid is,' meant that Zimmerman didn't feel sure that Martin wasn't close enough to overhear him speaking on the phone.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on February 01, 2013, 09:16:48 AM
RJ, you stated something that's flatly not true, then tried to weasel out of it.

There's a difference between not knowing (which is what GZ actually said, isn't it?) and you saying he knew TM was nearby.
Of course my point was that by the end of the call, Z wasn't sure at all that Martin had fled but he still decided to risk another traversal of the cut through - much different than he was on 2/2/12.  It is easier to attack me for a quite reasonable paraphrase rather than actually address the issues raised.  Are you Robert Zimmerman, Jr.?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: annoyedbeyond on February 02, 2013, 07:04:19 AM
Of course my point was that by the end of the call, Z wasn't sure at all that Martin had fled but he still decided to risk another traversal of the cut through - much different than he was on 2/2/12.  It is easier to attack me for a quite reasonable paraphrase rather than actually address the issues raised.  Are you Robert Zimmerman, Jr.?

Okay.

I just went back through your posts for 4 days and can't find the original post in question, must have missed it. The only one on point was an edited post.

So, since I can't find the evidence you said what I'm fairly certain you said, I'm forced to concede the point and I apologize for getting it wrong.

Still...edited posts...next time I'll reply with a copy. This won't happen again.


And no, I'm not related to George at all. Why, are you related to BDLR?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on February 02, 2013, 07:14:40 AM
And no, I'm not related to George at all. Why, are you related to BDLR?
Except that we are both bald, no connection between me and BDLR.  I pegged you as a type 3 poster who takes the extreme position that Zimmerman did his job perfectly that night.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 07:16:28 AM
Okay.

I just went back through your posts for 4 days and can't find the original post in question, must have missed it. The only one on point was an edited post.

So, since I can't find the evidence you said what I'm fairly certain you said, I'm forced to concede the point and I apologize for getting it wrong.

Still...edited posts...next time I'll reply with a copy.

This is the post in question. It wasn't edited.

Try as we may, Zimmerman's actions defy explanation.  He didn't want to identify himself to Martin, when the latter was "checking him out" out of "fear" but unlike his behavior on previous incidents, discussed here recently, he followed somebody he thought suspicious into a dark area where he could be ambushed.  Late in the NEN call, when he said he thought Martin might be nearby, he refused to wait on well lit RVC for the cops (even though he later implied that was his reason for going there), but headed back on the dark cut through.  I don't regard these things in the slightest as proving guilt, just severe incompetence and stupidity.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: whonoze on February 02, 2013, 08:35:22 AM
This was an odd tiff over RJ's wording. It's obvious Rickey and i are hardly BFFs, but I took his meaning and agree. The problem seems to be that RJ wrote "he said he thought Martin might be nearby," rather than "he indicated he thought Martin might be nearby." But, gosh, this is the Web and we're all typing quickly, so it just seems unproductive to get into a snit over something like this. Just MHO.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 08:57:04 AM
This was an odd tiff over RJ's wording.

Not odd. It's a certain poster's characteristic behavior toward those who stray from Zimmermanian orthodoxy.

I would say that I am pleased that he has found another target beside myself, if I cared.

[I just told my spell-checker that 'Zimmermanian' is a word. Think it will believe me?]
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Kyreth on February 02, 2013, 10:26:37 AM
This was an odd tiff over RJ's wording. It's obvious Rickey and i are hardly BFFs, but I took his meaning and agree. The problem seems to be that RJ wrote "he said he thought Martin might be nearby," rather than "he indicated he thought Martin might be nearby." But, gosh, this is the Web and we're all typing quickly, so it just seems unproductive to get into a snit over something like this. Just MHO.

It's not really a tiff.  There's just an implication of expectation that exists in one statement that doesn't exist in what George actually said, so I just added the clarification of what George actually said.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Kyreth on February 02, 2013, 10:29:30 AM
And to demonstrate, I see a difference between:

"We might die tonight."

and

"I don't know if we'll die tonight."
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 02, 2013, 10:55:19 AM
And to demonstrate, I see a difference between:

"We might die tonight."

and

"I don't know if we'll die tonight."

I am lighting votives for all of us...just in case.  8-) 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 10:59:10 AM
I am lighting votives for all of us...just in case.  8-)

Thank you kindly.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Kyreth on February 02, 2013, 12:31:06 PM
I am lighting votives for all of us...just in case.  8-)

Hehe much appreciated. ;)

That said, I did think of a better example.

If I "don't know" if my house is getting broken into tonight, I'll do the usual... just keep the doors locked, etc.

Someone tells me "I think your house is getting broken into tonight", and I'd be asking someone to keep an eye out, house sit, or something.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 19, 2013, 08:17:44 PM
About 7:23:33, the dispatcher speaking to W-18 suggested that she 'step away from the window' because watching events was making her too emotional. Shortly after, she indicated she had done so. The next, and last, time she gave what might be a  visual report on something outside, was about 7:26:29: '[Crosstalk] I just heard them say something. Oh, all the cars are outside my house right now, in the front.'

W-18's last visual report on the back yard area was at 7:23:21, 'they're looking at the person'. W-18 had noted the arrival of one more officer after Smith, so this may correspond to the period when Alaya 'attempted to get a response' from Martin by speaking to him, before Sgt. Raimondo arrived (14/184 (http://www.axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf), 2/284 (http://axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon_Martin_George_Zimmerman_Documents_given_to_the_Defendant_R.pdf)).

When Raimondo arrived, he checked for a pulse, and then he and Ayala began CPR. A bystander brought a plastic bag to seal Martin's wound. Sgt. McCoy arrived, got a respirator mask from her car and gave it to Raimondo, and relieved Alaya on chest compressions. It seems the plastic bag was applied after McCoy arrived. (14-17/184)

Raimondo estimated the time he and McCoy did CPR as 'approximately six minutes' (16/184).

Martin was pronounced at 7:30. This time is on the death certificate (133/184), and a number of other places in the discovery. The Event Reports indicate death (S-07) (http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/seminolecodesredacted.pdf) confirmed by 7:30:34 (pp. 11, 14, 7th Supplemental (http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/GZ-States-7th-Supp-Discovery_Redacted.pdf)).

W-18 was still on the phone. Her call ended about 7:31:32.  She never mentioned hearing a siren.

EMT Kevin O'Rourke, who made the call that Martin was deceased, said 'I think, I think like within a minute of us being on scene, making contact, I called it' (FDLE interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TJLgR1DyLM), 7:49; unredacted in wav (http://media2.abcactionnews.com/html/zimmermanevidence/audio/ORourkeFDLE03242012.wav)).

Is there anything else in the discovery that goes to the arrival time of SFD 38?

These events easily account for the time between 7:23:21 and 7:30:34. Raimondo's six minute estimate seems a little high.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 19, 2013, 09:29:26 PM

Responding to post on another thread.

I've considered the possibility that this was when GZ pulled out from the CH. That TM had 'skipped' past him to the East and then South onto TTL and that GZ had lost sight of him. So he pulled out to follow and try and get a line of sight on him again. It also matches what GZ said in the re-enactment while parked at the CH.

1:34:25- Okay [turns in seat]. These assholes, they always get away. Yep [power window switch or gear shift and four footsteps/fade]

That's the Lee M. transcript. (http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf)

For the record, I don't hear a non-vocal noise at 1:34, and I do hear noises that aren't mentioned in the transcript. But I'm not a noise analyst, so I'll leave aside what I hear and don't hear and talk about the transcript.

The 1:34 noise is the last one identified as a possible gear shift, in fact the last non-vocal noise mentioned in the transcript, until the door opens. If that's the truck being put in gear before it starts moving, when is it returned to park after it stops moving? If that's the truck being put in reverse to back out of the clubhouse parking lot, when is it put in drive? If one gear shift is audible, wouldn't others be?

Maybe Zimmerman put the truck in park and opened the door at the same time. I leave it to the vehicle experts to decide if that is plausible. What about the shift from reverse to drive? In the reenactment, the second gear shift is about 7 seconds after the first.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 05, 2013, 09:55:17 PM
Responding to post on another thread.

George was where he should have been if his story about returning to his truck is true.

If Zimmerman started walking back from RVC about the time the NEN call ended, he would have reached the truck by the time of the confrontation, even at a slow walk.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on March 06, 2013, 02:12:12 AM
Responding to post on another thread.

If Zimmerman started walking back from RVC about the time the NEN call ended, he would have reached the truck by the time of the confrontation, even at a slow walk.

Did he ever say how long he hung around RVC before turning and beginning the walk back?  It is probably just me but if he went to get a street number and he was expecting the police to call back for his location, he may have waited for some period of time before deciding to return to the truck.

Sorry, I don't remember and am feeling too lazy to go back over the reenactment tape. 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 06, 2013, 02:41:01 AM
Did he ever say how long he hung around RVC before turning and beginning the walk back? 

Zimmerman never said he hung around at all after the NEN call ended.

In the last of the SPD interviews, he said he started walking back while he was still on the phone.

2/29-3, 10:35-51
Quote
[Recording]
(D) Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
(Z) Yeah.
(D) Alright, where are you gonna meet with them at?
(Z) If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse -

Serino: What are you doing right now?

Zimmerman: Walking back to my car.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on March 06, 2013, 04:25:46 AM
if he went to get a street number and he was expecting the police to call back for his location, he may have waited for some period of time before deciding to return to the truck.

Waiting for the police to call wasn't part of Zimmerman's story.

Zimmerman always said that he reached RVC while he was still on the phone. Just as he was about to give the dispatcher the address, the dispatcher implied the police might as well be called off, and asked Zimmerman to make the decision.

Zimmerman never explicitly explained his thinking at this point, but he seems to have assumed that, with the dispatcher handing this authority to him, it was also up to him to decide on whether the police were to be guided by an address or by directions. So Zimmerman dispensed with the address and gave directions. Then he started walking to his truck, and about that time he got off the phone and put it away.

Here's the reenactment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) version.

6:12-23
Quote
Zimmerman: I actually walked all the way to the street. And I was gonna give them this address. And they said, "Well, if he's not there, do you still want a police officer?" And I said "Yes."

At this point Zimmerman realized he had skipped the part about the dispatcher asking if he was following the suspect. He filled that in and continued.

6:42-7:08
Quote
Zimmerman: So I, that's when I walked straight through here, to get the address, so  -

Sgt. Smith: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: - that I could meet the police officer. And then they said, I said "He's not here." They said "Do you still want them to come?" And I said "Yes." And they said "Where do you want him to come to?" And I said, "You know what, just tell him to meet me at my truck, next to the clubhouse. If you go straight in through the clubhouse and makes [sic] a left, I have a Honda Ridgeland, a silver Honda Ridgeland, it's parked right there, I'll meet him right there." So then I started walking back.

Of course the above is a fairy tail. The dispatcher didn't say any such thing. It's not likely he would hand such authority to a civilian, especially one who might have been taken hostage by the suspicious person. As usual, what Zimmerman attributed to the dispatcher was neither true nor plausible.

Zimmerman didn't mention asking for a call on arrival until Singleton asked him about it, after that part of the recording had been played.

2/29-3, 15:40-16:03
Quote
Singleton: Why, why did you tell them, "Nevermind, just have them call me when they get here, and I'll tell them where I'm at?"

Zimmerman: I was frustrated that I couldn't think of the street name [crosstalk].

Singleton: But you were gonna be back in your car, from that distance, in less than fifteen or twenty seconds. So why would they need to call you?

Zimmerman: I felt like I didn't give them an adequate description of where I was from the clubhouse.

Zimmerman didn't say he wanted to give the police an address on RVC and meet them there. He implied that he intended to meet them at his truck, and wanted a call so he could give them better directions.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on March 06, 2013, 12:02:14 PM
Thanks for the clarification.  Appreciate it.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 07, 2013, 02:59:22 AM
Does anybody have any more information on how long GZ was on hold, in queue, or otherwise delayed in getting through directly to the non-emergency dispatcher upon first calling them?

I think that plays a very significant role in the timeline of things.  GZ appears to claim that he pulled into the clubhouse first before even dialing the non-emergency number.  He then details that he doesn't get through right away, and that TM actually passes him and "looks into his vehicle" while he's parked at the clubhouse, and then "loses contact" (visual?) with TM as I assume his view of TM is blocked by the foliage and/or the mailbox structure there at the clubhouse.  I'll link the contents of a post I made at another forum.

Quote
Go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAwukvlNc2U&t=26m15s

Listen to that til about the 30:00 mark.

Take special note of the exchanges at the following timestamps.

26:58 - DS - "When do you start calling the police; where are you?"

Remember that when he started calling the police, parked at the clubhouse, with TM still covering ground towards the clubhouse (and subsequently towards home, past GZ), he did not get through immediately. Perhaps they can look back in the logs to see how long he was in queue, if that's the case (unless he had to manually redial the number til he got through).

27:34

    DS - "You said he comes and he circles your car?"

    GZ - "No, ma'am, I lost contact with him (at the clubhouse), as I was trying to get through, cuz you have to..."

    DS - "So does he continue past you?"

    GZ - "Yes, ma'am"

    DS - "So he continues past you and you lose sight of him over here?"

    GZ - "Yes, ma'am"

28:10

    DS - "You said at some point he comes back and circles your car? Has he already done that?

    GZ - "He looked into my vehicle, but he didn't circle it at that point in time"

    DS - "You're still in the car talking to 911, right?"

    GZ - "I'm trying to get through"

In other words, while GZ is parked at the clubhouse ("at that point in time"), and TM walks past him, he still hadn't gotten through to dispatch.

28:24 - 30:00 - GZ continues to explain how he drove his car from the clubhouse to where he eventually parks, and that's where TM circles his vehicle. So, it appears that at some point while GZ is driving between the clubhouse and where GZ parks his car on TTL, or maybe even after he parks his car, is when he finally gets through to dispatch. He explains further about what happened after TM disappears again "into the darkness" of the T, and when GZ gets out of his vehicle.

Anyway, the point is, GZ isn't at the clubhouse when the call to dispatch begins recording. Where he is at that point isn't certain, just that it's somewhere between the clubhouse and where GZ's vehicle ended up on TTL.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 07, 2013, 03:43:49 AM
Zimmerman never said he hung around at all after the NEN call ended.

In the last of the SPD interviews, he said he started walking back while he was still on the phone.

2/29-3, 10:35-51

Quote

    [Recording]
    (D) Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
    (Z) Yeah.
    (D) Alright, where are you gonna meet with them at?
    (Z) If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse -

    Serino: What are you doing right now?

    Zimmerman: Walking back to my car.


Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

If he's walking back to his car/truck at the point where he starts to give the directions to his truck that were of a quality such that the dispatcher tried to get an address in front of which the truck was parked instead, then that means he already has the RVC address he crossed through the T to get.

But it was the request for the truck address that supposedly triggered the walk over to RVC to get an address in the first place.

Not to mention if he's already walking back at that point, he'd have plenty of time to get back to and through the T before the end of the call, and the "ambush" at the T is still something like 2 to 2.5 minutes in the future.

So the obvious explanation is that a localized temporal anomaly swept through the area, resulting a reversal of the usual order of cause and effect and causing time to pass a rate for Zimmerman different from the rate for Martin and perhaps for both in comparison with the rest of the world.

Glad we got that straightened out.

 ;D
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 07, 2013, 04:04:24 AM
Does anybody have any more information on how long GZ was on hold, in queue, or otherwise delayed in getting through directly to the non-emergency dispatcher upon first calling them?

I think that plays a very significant role in the timeline of things.  GZ appears to claim that he pulled into the clubhouse first before even dialing the non-emergency number.  He then details that he doesn't get through right away, and that TM actually passes him and "looks into his vehicle" while he's parked at the clubhouse, and then "loses contact" (visual?) with TM as I assume his view of TM is blocked by the foliage and/or the mailbox structure there at the clubhouse.  I'll link the contents of a post I made at another forum.


"Quote

    Go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAwukvlNc2U&t=26m15s

    Listen to that til about the 30:00 mark.

    Take special note of the exchanges at the following timestamps.

    26:58 - DS - "When do you start calling the police; where are you?"

    Remember that when he started calling the police, parked at the clubhouse, with TM still covering ground towards the clubhouse (and subsequently towards home, past GZ), he did not get through immediately. Perhaps they can look back in the logs to see how long he was in queue, if that's the case (unless he had to manually redial the number til he got through).

    27:34

        DS - "You said he comes and he circles your car?"

        GZ - "No, ma'am, I lost contact with him (at the clubhouse), as I was trying to get through, cuz you have to..."

        DS - "So does he continue past you?"

        GZ - "Yes, ma'am"

        DS - "So he continues past you and you lose sight of him over here?"

        GZ - "Yes, ma'am"

    28:10

        DS - "You said at some point he comes back and circles your car? Has he already done that?

        GZ - "He looked into my vehicle, but he didn't circle it at that point in time"

        DS - "You're still in the car talking to 911, right?"

        GZ - "I'm trying to get through"

    In other words, while GZ is parked at the clubhouse ("at that point in time"), and TM walks past him, he still hadn't gotten through to dispatch.

    28:24 - 30:00 - GZ continues to explain how he drove his car from the clubhouse to where he eventually parks, and that's where TM circles his vehicle. So, it appears that at some point while GZ is driving between the clubhouse and where GZ parks his car on TTL, or maybe even after he parks his car, is when he finally gets through to dispatch. He explains further about what happened after TM disappears again "into the darkness" of the T, and when GZ gets out of his vehicle.

    Anyway, the point is, GZ isn't at the clubhouse when the call to dispatch begins recording. Where he is at that point isn't certain, just that it's somewhere between the clubhouse and where GZ's vehicle ended up on TTL.
Okay so that puts

Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?*
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

after Martin disappears from view for the first time before returning to circle the truck.

I suppose that fits in with the "Martin taunted him into following him into the dark" theory, but if he just got through being concerned that the kid might have a gun in his waistband, why in the holy hockey sticks does he jump out to go chasing after him on foot into the dark?

Is he totally nuts?

If he thinks the kid is headed for the back gate, why not use the truck to get there ahead of him?

Let's even examine the "other side's" theory that he deliberately intended to hunt him down and shoot him.  How would chasing after him on foot after he's already out of sight help him do that?  If the kid is really running  for the back entrance, then by the time George hustles over as far as the T, the kid is most of the way down the long sidewalk and about to be able to get onto that short east west stub of TTL that goes to the gate, which means after he turns left he's out of sight again.

I can't figure out from which "side" Zimmerman getting out of the truck makes no sense whatsoever more.


*And nearly forgot to mention, if that's the start of the coming back and circling, then Martin is not near the clubhouse, he's near the T.

(although I seem to remember a previous conversation where it was argued that since he was close to the clubhouse compared with his distance to Alpha Centauri that he was "near" it)

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 07, 2013, 04:49:57 AM
I suppose that fits in with the "Martin taunted him into following him into the dark" theory, but if he just got through being concerned that the kid might have a gun in his waistband, why in the holy hockey sticks does he jump out to go chasing after him on foot into the dark?

Is he totally nuts?

GZ describes the "hand in his waistband" maneuver as an attempt to "look tough", or a bluff.

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/

#4 - 29:50

Quote
Singleton: He’s reaching in his waistband?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: So what do you think there’s a possibility that he has?
Zimmerman: Well, the guy 3 weeks, 2 weeks prior, did the same thing when he saw me, like put his hand in his jacket and watched me walk by and then he lit a cigarette. So I thought that he was just trying to, um, look tough or intimidate….
Singleton:  So, you didn’t think he had a weapon?
Zimmerman: No, no. I didn’t….
Singleton: You thought he was just trying to bluff you.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1025

Okay so that puts

Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?*
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

after Martin disappears from view for the first time before returning to circle the truck.

*And nearly forgot to mention, if that's the start of the coming back and circling, then Martin is not near the clubhouse, he's near the T.

(although I seem to remember a previous conversation where it was argued that since he was close to the clubhouse compared with his distance to Alpha Centauri that he was "near" it)

Sure, but is he going to tell the dispatcher "He's near the T"?  If anything GZ may have called it "a cut through", but I imagine the clubhouse was the closest landmark that GZ had a memorized address for (even though he recited it incorrectly) in which to relay to the dispatcher for an approximate location.  Maybe had he been closer to his own house he could have given that address.  "The best address I can give you is 111 RVC" (which to me implies he's not literally at the club house at the time).

Regarding it not being "near" the clubhouse:  Listen to this exchange where GZ is trying to recall what he said to the NEN dispatcher during the walk-through

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_2NeMrGCvg&t=9m17s

GZ describes his truck as "next to the clubhouse", when his truck was parked much closer to the T or cut-through.  He continues to describe how they would drive straight in through the clubhouse, and take a left (onto TTL) and they would find his truck "parked right there", where "right there" was very close to the west end of the T.  So in GZ speak, "next to" or "near" the clubhouse would be near the T as well.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: cboldt on April 07, 2013, 05:34:09 AM
I suppose that fits in with the "Martin taunted him into following him into the dark" theory, but if he just got through being concerned that the kid might have a gun in his waistband, why in the holy hockey sticks does he jump out to go chasing after him on foot into the dark?

Is he totally nuts?

If he thinks the kid is headed for the back gate, why not use the truck to get there ahead of him?

To the first conjecture, I would say that it's unlikely he expected to get close to the suspicious person.  Martin appears to be attempting evasion, not confrontation.  So, he gets out of the truck in an effort to discover the direction of flight.  I know he said otherwise, that he got out of the truck to get an address, but that doesn't square with the words and actions that are heard on the NEN call.

As between proceeding on foot and driving, Zimmerman must have thought that his best chance at observation was from on foot.  Likely didn't give it much thought, seems to have been a quick choice.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Lousy1 on April 07, 2013, 06:56:45 AM
To the first conjecture, I would say that it's unlikely he expected to get close to the suspicious person.  Martin appears to be attempting evasion, not confrontation.  So, he gets out of the truck in an effort to discover the direction of flight.  I know he said otherwise, that he got out of the truck to get an address, but that doesn't square with the words and actions that are heard on the NEN call.

As between proceeding on foot and driving, Zimmerman must have thought that his best chance at observation was from on foot.  Likely didn't give it much thought, seems to have been a quick choice.

I agree that its is likely that GZ thought another one had got away. ( 'They always run') It is easier to interpret his actions if we adopt the perspective that he was resigned to dutifully waiting to file a vague report to a (most likely), less than enthusiastic police officer.

It is unlikely that George believed that he would observe TM again. While the initial exit from the truck was probably and instinctual effort to observe the fleeing suspect for a few more seconds it must have soon dawned on George that he didn't really have a chance to maintain that observation.

Once George accepted that disappointing realization, dawdling to find and exact address to his current location makes perfect sense. At some point it may have dawned on George that meeting at that exact point had small and diminishing utility and reasonably he decided to return to his nearby, dry truck.






Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 07, 2013, 07:07:14 AM
Well, since he never even got absolute confirmation that the other guy with his hand in his waistband did not have a gun, that's a pretty slim reed on which to assume that the guy who turned out to be Martin did not have one, either.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: cboldt on April 07, 2013, 07:31:09 AM
Well, since he never even got absolute confirmation that the other guy with his hand in his waistband did not have a gun, that's a pretty slim reed on which to assume that the guy who turned out to be Martin did not have one, either.

My point was that even if Zimmerman thought the guy had a gun, he doesn't have to be nuts to get out of his truck, under the circumstances or thinking they guy (with a gun) is running away and making a (what Zimmerman thinks is a likely successful) attempt to evade detection.  Now, if Zimmerman had gotten out of his truck while being taunted, that's a horse of a different color.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 07, 2013, 03:19:55 PM
If anything GZ may have called it "a cut through", but I imagine the clubhouse was the closest landmark that GZ had a memorized address for (even though he recited it incorrectly) in which to relay to the dispatcher for an approximate location.

I'm quite convinced that GZ was referring to Twin Trees as the "cut-through," not the dog walk.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 07, 2013, 03:47:18 PM
I'm quite convinced that GZ was referring to Twin Trees as the "cut-through,"

As I recall, this theory depends on the assumption that Zimmerman would expect the dispatcher to understand that in RATL, the major road circles the complex, so the street that 'cut's through' would be secondary. There's no reason for Zimmerman to expect that, and no reason to assume that Zimmerman was referring to a street when he used the phrase 'cut-through'.

Why would you be 'quite convinced' of such a speculation?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 07, 2013, 05:42:12 PM
I'm quite convinced that GZ was referring to Twin Trees as the "cut-through," not the dog walk.

In a way, it makes more sense, because he had just been asked where his truck was parked, not where his feet were walking.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 07, 2013, 05:44:32 PM
As I recall, this theory depends on the assumption that Zimmerman would expect the dispatcher to understand that in RATL, the major road circles the complex, so the street that 'cut's through' would be secondary. There's no reason for Zimmerman to expect that, and no reason to assume that Zimmerman was referring to a street when he used the phrase 'cut-through'.

No more than the alternate theory depends on the assumption that Zimmerman would expect the dispatcher to understand he was referring to the walkway that connects Twin Trees Lane to Retreat View Drive. In neither case does Zimmerman expect the information to aid the dispatcher. He's just explaining why he can't provide an address.

Quote
Why would you be 'quite convinced' of such a speculation?

Because it would fit the exchange with Sean:

Quote
Sean: Okay, what-what address are you parked in front of?
GZ: Um, I don't know. It's a cut-through so I don't know the address.

GZ didn't claim to be parked at the entry to the dog walk. He said he was parked down the street, near a townhouse.

Because of how he described Twin Trees Lane to Singleton:

Quote
Zimmerman: Um, and, dispatch asked me where he went. I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on, I
Singleton: So you’d come off your street and gotten to another street
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: at some point? OK.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am. Goes in, cuts through the middle of my neighborhood.
Singleton: OK.

Because in the Singleton interview he refers to the walkway connecting the streets as the "dog walk" not the "cut through."
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on April 07, 2013, 06:09:49 PM
As I recall, this theory depends on the assumption that Zimmerman would expect the dispatcher to understand that in RATL, the major road circles the complex, so the street that 'cut's through' would be secondary. There's no reason for Zimmerman to expect that, and no reason to assume that Zimmerman was referring to a street when he used the phrase 'cut-through'.

Why would you be 'quite convinced' of such a speculation?

I dunno, maybe because he mentions "cut through" when asked what address his truck was parked in front of.  I assume his truck was not parked on the dog walk, but I guess its possible GZ interpreted the question "what address are you parked in front of" with "whats the address of where you are now". 

I don't know how to reconcile GZ's response to Serino's question that he was walking back to his truck as he was ending the call.  Clearly there is at least 90 seconds from the time GZ hangs up the phone until TM surprises him (his version).   It could be he started back towards his truck then when he hung up (maybe even got there to retrieve his keys), considered that he had never gotten the address he was looking for (or maybe forgot it and went to get it again) and walked back to RVC to get it.  IF he was walking back to his truck at the end of the call, he probably had enough time to walk from it to RVC, get the address and encounter TM on the way back.  It could be that he just doesn't remember exactly what he was doing at that time as evidenced by other versions that seem to be contradictory.  IT could be that he's lying and leaving out that he was walking somewhere else looking for TM.

I tend to think he didn't go looking for TM after the exchange with the dispatcher about following TM.  He appears to be able to see his truck and after giving step by step instructions about TM's movements, he doesn't mention anything again after this point. 

Man, wouldn't it be great to have GZ's GPS data.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 07, 2013, 07:10:03 PM
No more than the alternate theory depends on the assumption that Zimmerman would expect the dispatcher to understand he was referring to the walkway that connects Twin Trees Lane to Retreat View Drive.

Total misunderstanding.

I'm assuming Zimmerman expected the dispatcher would understand 'cut-through' to mean a place where there was no house number.

The situation (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157630981402972/detail/) indicated in the interviews was a little more complicated. (Left click a photo to enlarge, or right click for a menu.)

The truck was parked roughly between two buildings on the north side of TTL. But these buildings face RVC, so they have no unit numbers visible from TTL.

The cut-through is on the south side of TTL, where another sidewalk passes between two buildings.

Of course Zimmerman was being over-literal, since the address of one of the units of the nearest building on the south side of TTL would have sufficed. And at that moment he couldn't have read one of those numbers because he wasn't there, by his own account. He was on RVC, or walking back from there.

Quote
Because of how he described Twin Trees Lane to Singleton

Zimmerman told Singleton 'I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on'. That is exactly what he did not say to Noffke.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on April 07, 2013, 07:38:15 PM
An address would require more than a house number.  It would require the street name, which GZ has said repeatedly he could not remember that night.  Also, the houses to the north wouldn't have visible house numbers and he may not have been able to see the house numbers on the south side, depending on where his car was actually parked.   When initially connecting with the dispatcher, he's asked for his location.  He responds with the best address I can give you which appears to be a clear indication that he's not at that address and on TTL.  Later when asked what address he's parked in front of, he says he doesn't know because its a cut through.  Its possible he means something else, but the most likely use front he NEN is that he's referring to TTL as the cut through.   
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 07, 2013, 07:40:30 PM
I assume his truck was not parked on the dog walk

Zimmerman said 'it's a cut-through', not 'on a cut-through'.

Quote
He appears to be able to see his truck

Why do you say that?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 07, 2013, 07:44:58 PM
...

Because in the Singleton interview he refers to the walkway connecting the streets as the "dog walk" not the "cut through."

If he called the east-west stretch of TTL the cut-through, and the east-west sidewalk that comprises the top cross-bar of the "T" the dog walk, what did he call the long north south sidewalk that's the riser of the "T"?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 07, 2013, 07:49:38 PM
It would require the street name, which GZ has said repeatedly he could not remember that night.

Not to Noffke.

Quote
When initially connecting with the dispatcher, he's asked for his location.

He was not. He volunteered the address of the clubhouse.

Quote
He responds with the best address I can give you which appears to be a clear indication that he's not at that address and on TTL.

I don't think it's any indication of his own location.

 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on April 07, 2013, 09:31:22 PM
Not to Noffke.
Implied in "best address I can give you", which seems pretty clear that its not where he's at or he wouldn't have supplied the qualifier.  When someone asks me the address of my house or another location of where to meet them, I don't say "well, the best address I can give you is ...   Also would be implied in the response to the question of what address his car is parked in front of and when giving directions to his truck, does not mention the name of the street he's on.

Quote
He was not. He volunteered the address of the clubhouse.

Good correction.  It actually shows more clearly that GZ doesn't know the address of where he is as it wasn't a response to a dynamic question, but his own offering that he had time to consider and felt was an important fact.  That GZ doesn't say he's at the clubhouse and gives the indication that the address he is giving out is his current location, to me is an indication that he was at a different location at that time.  It would seem to make sense that if he didn't know the address of his current location, that he would give the clubhouse address (which he is near) as the best address he can provide.  Personally, I believe he wasn't at his final stopping place yet, but had moved from the clubhouse when providing this description of his location.

Quote
I don't think it's any indication of his own location.
See above.  Have you ever heard anyone say "the best address I can give you is", then supply the actual address as their answer?  I would suspect if he was at the clubhouse, he would have said as much.  I don't contend to know whether he was just pulling out of the clubhouse, moving around the corner, following the turn on TTL or at his final resting place.  I think its clear he's not at the clubhouse at that time.

Why do I think GZ can see his truck as he's talking to dispatch?  Because when Sean first asks about meeting officers, GZ is describing directions to his truck (again giving no street name seeming to validate he doesn't know the street to Sean) and says thats my truck, then something else that isn't entirely intelligible.  The statements and context (along with the unintelligible statement that appears to be centered on the truck) lead me to believe he can see his truck at this moment.  Then of course there is his testimony that he never veered from the top of the 'T', which would mean his vehicle would have been visible at all times.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 07, 2013, 10:23:48 PM
When someone asks me the address of my house or another location of where to meet them, I don't say "well, the best address I can give you is ...   

Zimmerman wasn't asked where he wanted to meet the police until later in the call.

On the recordings of Zimmerman's earlier calls, an address was the first thing the dispatcher asked for. They need one for the report. Zimmerman didn't like to give his own address, and often gave the clubhouse address.

He might have said 'best address' because Martin wasn't there, or because Martin was in motion and Zimmerman couldn't anticipate where he would be by the time the police arrived.

I just don't see any reason to associate the address Zimmerman volunteered at the start of the call with his own location. He might have said the same thing, regardless of where he himself was located.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 07, 2013, 10:32:48 PM
The statements and context (along with the unintelligible statement that appears to be centered on the truck) lead me to believe he can see his truck at this moment.

Zimmerman knew where he left the truck. He didn't have to see it to give directions to it.

Btw, I hear 'They'll see my truck' instead of 'That's my truck'.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 07, 2013, 11:12:00 PM
The dispatcher needed an address to enter into the report or log or whatever they call it and to give to whoever he dispatched.

I'm pretty sure Zimmerman would know that.

Which means it makes sense that he'd include one early on in the call, and if he were no longer parked at the clubhouse but didn't know where "the suspect" would be when the police did arrive that he would include the qualifier of "best I can give you".
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: AJ on April 08, 2013, 12:16:09 AM
"the suspect"

Call me pedantic, politically correct, etc, etc, etc... but there wasn't a "suspect", there was a "subject" :)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 08, 2013, 12:23:16 AM
Call me pedantic, politically correct, etc, etc, etc... but there wasn't a "suspect", there was a "subject" :)

You know that and I know that, but it seems George didn't, hence my wrapping it in quotation marks.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 08, 2013, 12:31:14 AM
NM_NE: Zimmerman told Singleton 'I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on'. That is exactly what he did not say to Noffke.

In the Singleton interview, GZ says of Twin Tree: "Goes in, cuts through the middle of my neighborhood." That seems like a pretty strong indication that he might think of the street as a "cut-through." The fact that he said he didn't know the street name when interviewed by Singleton, but not when talking with Noffke counts for almost nothing, in my estimation. He wasn't being interviewed by Noffke. He chose a different way of saying it. Perhaps it was just how he happened to express himself at that moment, perhaps it was to somewhat avoided admitting he couldn't think of the street name.

unitron: If he called the east-west stretch of TTL the cut-through, and the east-west sidewalk that comprises the top cross-bar of the "T" the dog walk, what did he call the long north south sidewalk that's the riser of the "T"?

My guess is he just called the whole walkway the "dog walk," without necessarily thinking of it as separate components. That he at least referred to the east-west portion as the dog walk is apparent from the interview:

Quote
Zimmerman: Um, then, dispatcher told me, ah, where are you? and I said I’m trying to find out where he went. And he said we don’t need you to do that. And I said OK. Ah, he said we already have a police officer en route. And I said alright, I, I had gone where, through the dog walk where I normally walk my dog, and walked back through to my street, the street that loops around. And he said we already have a police officer on
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 08, 2013, 12:37:27 AM
I knew we should have all waited for Zimmerman to produce a glossary before anyone ever discussed this case in public.

 ;D

And I'm only half-way joking.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 08, 2013, 12:45:29 AM
Because of how he described Twin Trees Lane to Singleton:

Quote
Zimmerman: Um, and, dispatch asked me where he went. I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on, I
Singleton: So you’d come off your street and gotten to another street
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: at some point? OK.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am. Goes in, cuts through the middle of my neighborhood.
Singleton: OK.

The very next line from the exchange was this:

Quote
Zimmerman: I didn’t know the name of the street. Um, or where he went. So I got out of my car to look for the street sign, and to see if I could see where he cut through so that I could tell the police where…

He seems somewhat liberal with his use of the term "cut through", so I'm not sure if the portion of the transcript you provided really clarifies much.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 08, 2013, 01:01:45 AM
The very next line from the exchange was this:

He seems somewhat liberal with his use of the term "cut through", so I'm not sure if the portion of the transcript you provided really clarifies much.

I admit that does somewhat weaken my argument, but I'll also mention that though GZ does use the word "cut" fairly often,  I believe those are the only uses of "cut through" in the Singleton and Serino interviews, and I've notice when people use a term they seem to have it on the "tip of their brain" and often repeat it.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 08, 2013, 01:04:13 AM
there wasn't a "suspect", there was a "subject" :)

Webster's Third International, 2002

suspect n : one who is suspected

suspect vb 2 : to imagine (one) to be guilty or culpable on slight evidence or without proof
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 08, 2013, 01:32:53 AM
In the Singleton interview, GZ says of Twin Tree: "Goes in, cuts through the middle of my neighborhood." That seems like a pretty strong indication that he might think of the street as a "cut-through."

It doesn't seem that way to me. For that, I would at least need some indication that Zimmerman, or anyone, uses the expression 'cut-through' to mean a street.

Quote
perhaps it was to somewhat avoided admitting he couldn't think of the street name.

Are you suggesting that Zimmerman was using a private code that he expected the dispatcher not to understand?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: AJ on April 08, 2013, 01:58:33 AM
It doesn't seem that way to me. For that, I would at least need some indication that Zimmerman, or anyone, uses the expression 'cut-through' to mean a street.

Quote
Verb   1.   cut through - travel across or pass overcut through - travel across or pass over; "The caravan covered almost 100 miles each day"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cut+through

To be certain, I use the term quite often to describe a road that .. cuts through.. my back yard.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: AJ on April 08, 2013, 02:04:05 AM
Webster's Third International, 2002

suspect n : one who is suspected

suspect vb 2 : to imagine (one) to be guilty or culpable on slight evidence or without proof

Who imagined Mr. Martin to be guilty of anything? Last I checked, Mr. Zimmerman said Mr. Martin looked suspicious...
Quote
sus·pi·cious
adjective \sə-ˈspi-shəs\
Definition of SUSPICIOUS
1: tending to arouse suspicion : questionable <suspicious characters>
2: disposed to suspect : distrustful <suspicious of strangers>
3: expressing or indicative of suspicion <a suspicious glance>

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 08, 2013, 02:32:44 AM
It doesn't seem that way to me. For that, I would at least need some indication that Zimmerman, or anyone, uses the expression 'cut-through' to mean a street.


Try Googling (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22+cut-through+street%22&hl=en&ei=rX5iUZLWCoPnqQGg_oCYDg&start=10&sa=N&biw=1353&bih=879) "cut-through street"


Or read this article (http://thecabin.net/stories/052600/loc_0526000001.html):

Quote
The city says it receives the most complaints from residents on motorists' use of these four cut-throughs:
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 08, 2013, 02:49:27 AM

Try Googling (https://www.google.com/search?q=%22+cut-through+street%22&hl=en&ei=rX5iUZLWCoPnqQGg_oCYDg&start=10&sa=N&biw=1353&bih=879) "cut-through street"


Or read this article (http://thecabin.net/stories/052600/loc_0526000001.html):

Quote
The city says it receives the most complaints from residents on motorists' use of these four cut-throughs:

Quote
A cut-through street is a local street used by motorists to cut through from one main thoroughfare to another to avoid traffic lights or congestion.

That's a different definition than just a street that itself cuts through.

From googling, my impression is that the usual expression is 'cut-through street', rather than just 'cut-through' as a noun meaning a street of that kind. The sentence you quoted is a summarizing blurb, shortened like a headline.

The expression is often defined in the articles, suggesting that it is not in common usage.

ETA: Reading further down the article, I see this writer does frequently use 'cut-through' as a noun meaning 'cut-through street'.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 08, 2013, 03:22:59 AM
My guess is he just called the whole walkway the "dog walk," without necessarily thinking of it as separate components.

Zimmerman more often referred to the N/S sidewalk as the surface on which his head was banged, rather than a route.  He called it 'the concrete', 'the cement', 'the sidewalk', or 'a sidewalk'. He also said 'dogwalk', but I think only before the reenactment, when he seemed to recall for the first time that the action moved south of the T.

One time he did refer to the N/S sidewalk as a route, he called it 'the sidewalk here, between this row of houses' (2/26-1, 20:46).
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on April 08, 2013, 01:31:01 PM
Zimmerman wasn't asked where he wanted to meet the police until later in the call.
I didn't say he was.  I am saying when someone asks me for my address or I give it out voluntarily, I don't say, "the best address I can give you", unless I don't know the address where I am at and am giving one to a nearby location.

Quote
He might have said 'best address' because Martin wasn't there, or because Martin was in motion and Zimmerman couldn't anticipate where he would be by the time the police arrived.
If the reason was because Martin wasn't there, that would convince me that GZ wasn't there either.  In interviews, GZ said he went around the corner after TM disappeared, so if TM wasn't at the clubhouse, he would have been passed it and GZ would have gone to follow.  After giving the address, GZ provides some present tense description of TM's actions, then Sean's first question was of the suspects race.  GZ again answers in the present tense of "he looks black", not "he looked black" as in I can't see him right now, but thats what I noticed earlier.  In a few seconds, he also says that TM is staring at him which is more evidence that TM is in sight.

Quote
I just don't see any reason to associate the address Zimmerman volunteered at the start of the call with his own location. He might have said the same thing, regardless of where he himself was located.

Its an important element to the case given GZ's story.  I think the words used by GZ during the NEN show it most likely he wasn't at the clubhouse when he connected with Sean.  People just don't use the phrase "the best address I can give you" if thats where they are actually located.  Its a phrase you use when you don't know exactly where you are and give the closest point of reference that you are aware of.  ITs akin to saying I am near this location, not at this location.  ITs not a guarantee of course because anything is possible, but I can't think of a reason for him not to say either he or TM were at the clubhouse when giving out that address if thats where either of them were. 

Clearly what happens after GZ gets out of his vehicle is more important than what happened before it, but if it can be shown that the timing of his narrative fits with the NEN prior to exiting, his statements about what happens after, become more believable.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on April 08, 2013, 02:12:16 PM


The very next line from the exchange was this:

He seems somewhat liberal with his use of the term "cut through", so I'm not sure if the portion of the transcript you provided really clarifies much.

In this reference, he is talking about a persons actions, not an inanimate object like a sidewalk or street.  IF he had said he got out to see which cut through TM had used, then I think it would muddy its use. 

Like a lot of things, we could say we don't know for sure which he meant, but its seems much more logical that his use of "cut through" in answering a direction question as to what address he is parked in front of, is in reference to the street that his vehicle was parked on.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 08, 2013, 03:04:44 PM
its seems much more logical that his use of "cut through" in answering a direction question as to what address he is parked in front of, is in reference to the street that his vehicle was parked on.

The truck was parked on the street, not in front of the street.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 11, 2013, 09:15:14 PM
I'm much less confident in my opinion that "cut-through" refers to the street after listening to the voice-stress interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY&feature=player_embedded#!). GZ at least twice refers to the dog path as a "cut-through." He does once again mention that Twin Trees Lane cuts through the neighborhood, saying as best I recall, that he didn't know the street's name because it's a side street that cuts through his neighborhood. I still think "cut through" may refer to the street, and GZ may as, Departure suggested, use the term liberally.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on April 11, 2013, 09:25:19 PM
The truck was parked on the street, not in front of the street.

I don't think streets have addresses or Sean asked what street he was parked in front of (I checked, he instead asked what address he parked in front of).  I am pretty sure GZ parked on a street and in front of an address.  Unfortunately the house faced the other direction and didn't have a and address that matched the street he was parked on.  There were other houses on that street that he could could easily find the numbers for, but an address with a house number is worthless without the name of the street.  I'm assuming GZ wasn't referring to a particular house as a "cut-through" in his answer to what address his SUV was parked in front of.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 11, 2013, 09:45:51 PM
I am pretty sure GZ parked on a street and in front of an address.  Unfortunately the house faced the other direction . . .

That means the truck wasn't parked in front of the house. It was parked in back of the house.

There is one building on the south side of that stretch of TTL. It faces north, toward TTL.

East of that building is a cut-through, and Zimmerman's truck was parked in front of that cut-through.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 11, 2013, 10:40:38 PM
I'd really love to hear any/more thoughts/info on this:

Does anybody have any more information on how long GZ was on hold, in queue, or otherwise delayed in getting through directly to the non-emergency dispatcher upon first calling them?

Depending on the length of delay, this could potentially allow GZ's apparent implication that TM first passes him at the clubhouse, then later returns from near the T area to circle his car (while he's parked on TTL), to make sense.  If there was a significant delay (1-2+ minutes) in getting through to the dispatcher/Sean, it would allow GZ's story to make sense.  If not... then...
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 11, 2013, 10:45:49 PM
I agree with you about the significance of the issue.

I haven't seen anything, in the discovery or elsewhere, that sheds any light on it.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on April 12, 2013, 08:09:00 AM
Am I correct that Zimmerman was not questioned about, nor did he volunteer, his interaction with Martin from the first observation at Taafe's house to the time that he pulled into the clubhouse parking lot?  Zimmerman, contrary to his stated behavior in previous incidents, didn't try to avoid Martin noticing that he was being noticed by Zimmerman.  In fact Zimmerman must have annoyed him enough to cause the later confrontation.  One might guess that Zimmerman left Martin at Taafe's and then Martin caught up to him at the clubhouse but it could be that Zimmerman tailed him at least part of the way.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 12, 2013, 11:22:12 AM
Zimmerman, contrary to his stated behavior in previous incidents, didn't try to avoid Martin noticing that he was being noticed by Zimmerman.

Had GZ ever called the non-emergency number or 911 from his vehicle before?  If he hadn't, the circumstances of this instance would be somewhat unique when compared to the others previous.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on April 12, 2013, 11:42:23 AM
That means the truck wasn't parked in front of the house. It was parked in back of the house.

There is one building on the south side of that stretch of TTL. It faces north, toward TTL.

East of that building is a cut-through, and Zimmerman's truck was parked in front of that cut-through.

NEN wouldn't have known anything about where GZ parked, but I think its common vernacular to ask the question in this manner.  Sean wouldn't have had any clue that houses along TTL could be front or rear facing.   GZ didn't explicitly provide that he was parked behind houses (though he was parked in front of some others), but he provided the information that he couldn't give an address because its a cut through.  He didn't mention to Sean that he didn't know the street name, which we found  out later, but it is a reason that precluded him from providing an address.

Yes, there is also a building on the east side of TTL after it bends.  We don't know the exact location of GZ's parked SUV, but GZ also could have potentially provided this address as one he was parked in front of.  Alas he didn't know the street name which is an essential part of an address.

How far in front of the sidewalk cut through was GZ parked?  I thought you believed he parked where they stopped during the re-enactment some 50-60 feet away, so is that consistent with GZ being parked in front of that sidewalk?  Isn't that sidewalk within about 10 feet of W11/W20's house?  Are you suggesting GZ knew the street name (making it easy to relay the address for W11/W20's house), but chose instead to say he parked in front of a sidewalk, some 60 feet from it, without providing any other bearings to his location? 

I don't view GZ as the sharpest tool in the shed, but he's not an idiot either.  Given that the sidewalk "cut through" is about 10 feet from an actual house on TTL, I doubt he would have said he can't provide an address for the sidewalk he parked in front of, with a house sitting right next to it.  Occam's Razor seems applicable in this discussion.





Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on April 12, 2013, 11:58:55 AM
Bienvenido Sr. Departure.  Have you seen the thread on Previous NEN Calls?  The question you raised has been discussed there.  I think reading and listening to the previous calls and pondering the differences with the last is worthwhile. 

We know he was on foot, walking his dog, on 2/2/12.  It is not clear on the previous ones where he was.  On the second NEN call, 8/26/2011, he actually told the dispatcher to have the cops meet him at the back entrance where he would let them in, which suggests he might have been in his car at the time.  Regardless, why he decided to get out of the car on 2/26/12 and head for the very dark dog walk, which he had used to walk his dog on earlier occasions, rather than stay in his car and drive to where he thought Martin was heading, remains a mystery. 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 12, 2013, 09:14:48 PM
I think its common vernacular to ask the question in this manner.  Sean wouldn't have had any clue that houses along TTL could be front or rear facing.

Agreed.

I don't see how either point is relevant. It seems much of this discussion is at cross purposes.

Quote
I thought you believed he parked where they stopped during the re-enactment

I'm not convinced Zimmerman told the truth about where he left the truck, but I have been assuming that for this discussion.

Three maps. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157630981402972/detail/)

[Left clicking a photo enlarges it. Right clicking calls up a menu.

Once enlarged, a photo can be enlarged again by clicking the magnifying glass icon in the upper right, and enlarged again by clicking 'Fullscreen', also upper right.]

There are two cut-throughs at the bend in TTL. One is northeast of the bend, its sidewalk leading east to RVC. The other is southwest of the bend, with a sidewalk leading south and west to another sidewalk, which rings the central pond.

The parking spot Zimmerman indicated is in front of the southwest cut-through.

Quote
Are you suggesting GZ knew the street name

Certainly not. Where do you get that idea?

I thought Zimmerman had forgotten the street name before his statements were released, and we found that he had admitted as much. It was discussed on the blog, (http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2012/5/29/04041/8193/237#237) before the forum opened.

Neither you nor MJW have addressed the issue that I think is decisive.

It is quite common for a street that 'cuts through' a neighborhood to be the neighborhood's major artery. I think that arrangement is more common than one like RATL, with the main street encircling the neighborhood. Even if such a layout is very common in the gated communities of Sanford, I doubt it is so predominate that someone would expect 'cut-through' to be automatically understood as equivalent to 'secondary street'. Without such an expectation, saying the street is 'a cut-through' is no explanation for not knowing an address.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 12, 2013, 09:28:21 PM
It is quite common for a street that 'cuts through' a neighborhood to be the neighborhood's major artery. I think that arrangement is more common than one like RATL, with the main street encircling the neighborhood. Even if such a layout is very common in the gated communities of Sanford, I doubt it is so predominate that someone would expect 'cut-through' to be automatically understood as equivalent to 'secondary street'. Without such an expectation, saying the street is 'a cut-through' is no explanation for not knowing an address.

In the voice-stress interview, GZ refers to Twin Trees and a "side street," which I would take as equivalent to a "secondary street." He either says directly or implies (I don't recall which) that that's why he didn't know its name.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 12, 2013, 09:29:06 PM
Why didn't he parked further (farther?) east, even closer to the bend and the west end of the sidewalk that forms the top of the "T"?

He drove over that way to keep an eye on Martin, correct?

Martin, prior to coming back to circle the truck before taking off running, had disappeared into the darkness somewhere around the "T", right?

Why not get his headlights closer to that area before Martin re-appeared?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Cylinder on April 12, 2013, 09:46:13 PM
I'm not convinced Zimmerman told the truth about where he left the truck, but I have been assuming that for this discussion.

It's not very likely that Zimmerman lied about where he left his truck since SPD ran the tags on his parked vehicle. I think this fact would have been mentioned at some point in the narratives.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 12, 2013, 09:57:13 PM
It's not very likely that Zimmerman lied about where he left his truck since SPD ran the tags on his parked vehicle. I think this fact would have been mentioned at some point in the narratives.

He could have left it not exactly where he said/indicated but still in the same general area and they'd still have found it to run the tags.

They were looking for "outsider" vehicles, so when it came back registered to a resident it wasn't considered a big deal, so apparently the location wasn't made note of at the time, any more than was the location of the white Honda.

I certainly hope someone got up with Office B within a few days and got that info, including which way the truck was pointed, but there's no record of whether or not that was done.

One thing that seems strange to me is the considerable time in between finding the white Honda and the silver Honda truck.

Has it ever been absolutely established that the white Honda was Shellie's?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 12, 2013, 10:04:22 PM
They were looking for "outsider" vehicles, so when it came back registered to a resident it wasn't considered a big deal, so apparently the location wasn't made note of at the time, any more than was the location of the white Honda.

I don't think that's been established. The officer who radioed in the tag number may have written down the location in his field notes. He certainly should have realized that it might be significant once he heard the vehicle was registered to Zimmerman.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 12, 2013, 10:07:22 PM
Has it ever been absolutely established that the white Honda was Shellie's?

I'm not suggesting it wasn't Shellie's, but I didn't know there was any reason to think it was.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 12, 2013, 10:13:21 PM
In the voice-stress interview, GZ refers to Twin Trees and a "side street," which I would take as equivalent to a "secondary street." He either says directly or implies (I don't recall which) that that's why he didn't know its name.

CVSA, 2/27, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI) 27:04-31, 6:45:41-46:07 
Quote
So I pulled out, and I drove adjacent to the clubhouse. And, I was unfamiliar with the street name. The operator asked me what street I was on. And it's not the street that I live on. It's a side street that cuts through the neighborhood. And I told him I didn't know. And, they said, "We need to know - " When I was at the clubhouse, I gave them the clubhouse address.

On the NEN recording we never hear Zimmerman admit to Noffke that he didn't know the street name. This is the only time in the SPD interviews that he claimed to have done so.

I included the part about the clubhouse because it's pertinent to an earlier discussion. Zimmerman's recollections are clearly unreliable, but I know of no evidence that he was not at the clubhouse when he gave Noffke an address for it.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 12, 2013, 10:16:45 PM
I don't think that's been established. The officer who radioed in the tag number may have written down the location in his field notes. He certainly should have realized that it might be significant once he heard the vehicle was registered to Zimmerman.

I forget the rest of Officer B's last name but he might not have known at that point that the name of the shooter was Zimmerman, or even if he did he might not have realized the part played by the truck in that night's saga and that there was anything special about "exactly" where it was found.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 12, 2013, 10:18:46 PM
I'm not suggesting it wasn't Shellie's, but I didn't know there was any reason to think it was.

I've seen it said a few places that it was, but without a reference to a log or recording attached.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 12, 2013, 10:22:14 PM
I forget the rest of Officer B's last name but he might not have known at that point that the name of the shooter was Zimmerman, or even if he did he might not have realized the part played by the truck in that night's saga and that there was anything special about "exactly" where it was found.

I think it would be very unlikely that the officers canvassing the area wouldn't know the name of the shooter.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Cylinder on April 12, 2013, 10:22:36 PM
He could have left it not exactly where he said/indicated but still in the same general area and they'd still have found it to run the tags.

I agree with the caveat that if had been in some location/position that indicated deception (as opposed to Zimmerman being off by a few yards which would be immaterial margin of error) someone would have mentioned it in a narrative or interveiw. That is, of course, IMHO.

They were looking for "outsider" vehicles, so when it came back registered to a resident it wasn't considered a big deal, so apparently the location wasn't made note of at the time, any more than was the location of the white Honda.

Are we certain of that? It sounded to me as if they were looking for Zimmerman's vehicle at the specific time of the tag request.

Quote
SPD: [unintelligible] Delta 28
DIS: Go ahead with your plate
SPD: Alpha Tango Tango 0 6 8
DIS: [unintelligible] Honda [unintelligible] expires 6/19/2012
SPD: Thank You
SPD: 2312 Bravo
DIS: I’m sorry?
SPD: Run a tag for me
DIS: What’s the tag
SPD: Florida tag 816 Kilo Lima Papa, tell me if it’s registered anywhere in Twin Lakes
DIS: Zimmerman
SPD: Thank You


Radio Traffic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EDfVVES7h5E) listen around 9:15.

One thing that seems strange to me is the considerable time in between finding the white Honda and the silver Honda truck.

15 minutes. I had not noticed that.

Has it ever been absolutely established that the white Honda was Shellie's?

At first, I put the two tags close in time together which made it seem unlikely that the two were related since the dispatcher only uses the last name. Now that seperation is apparent, that argument becomes less persuasive.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 12, 2013, 10:31:49 PM
CVSA, 2/27, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI) 27:04-31, 6:45:41-46:07 
On the NEN recording we never hear Zimmerman admit to Noffke that he didn't know the street name. This is the only time in the SPD interviews that he claimed to have done so.

Noffke asked for the address. That's a request for the street and street number. GZ's doesn't have a built-in tape recorder. As on many other occasions, he recalled his interpretation of the substance of Noffke's request and his response. If anything, this supports the argument that GZ's reply on the NEN call was meant to convey that he didn't know the street name.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 12, 2013, 10:50:52 PM
I think it would be very unlikely that the officers canvassing the area wouldn't know the name of the shooter.

They weren't looking for the shooter.  As I understand it, they were looking to see if any of the cars were from outside the neighborhood to see if that would help in identifying the victim.

Zimmerman looked beat up, the victim didn't (except for that one bullet hole, of course), so at that point the self-defense claim probably was provisionally accepted to a certain extent, and they probably weren't in the "we're going to turn this entire neighborhood upside down and inside out until we figure out exactly what happened here" mode.

And as far as I know, they only had the one guy out there checking plates when he wasn't helping put up the yellow tape or whatever on the periphery of the "crime" scene.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 12, 2013, 10:56:22 PM
I agree with the caveat that if had been in some location/position that indicated deception (as opposed to Zimmerman being off by a few yards which would be immaterial margin of error) someone would have mentioned it in a narrative or interveiw. That is, of course, IMHO.

Are we certain of that? It sounded to me as if they were looking for Zimmerman's vehicle at the specific time of the tag request.
 

Radio Traffic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EDfVVES7h5E) listen around 9:15.

15 minutes. I had not noticed that.

At first, I put the two tags close in time together which made it seem unlikely that the two were related since the dispatcher only uses the last name. Now that seperation is apparent, that argument becomes less persuasive.

As I understand it, they were looking for vehicles which didn't belong in the neighborhood to see if they could maybe find something to help ID the victim, and Officer B was working the periphery of the scene and might not have had all of the then known details.

I guess I'm going to have to listen to all that radio traffic to get a better handle on what was going on.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 12, 2013, 11:00:44 PM
According to the summary of the SAO interview with Bernosky (3/284 (http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf)), he was running tags 'to attempt to identify the victim.'
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 12:28:29 AM
Why didn't he park further (farther?) east, even closer to the bend

Good question, which the investigators never asked.

Closely related, why did he park at that time? He said he was looking for Martin, but he also indicated that he parked before seeing him.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

2/26-2, 3:25-36
Quote
Singleton: OK. OK. You ended up here. And then, is that when he circles your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: He comes out from where?

Zimmerman: I don't know.

Singleton: OK. All of a sudden you just notice he's circling your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

This is one of the more variable parts of Zimmerman's story. In the reenactment, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) he said that he did catch sight of Martin about the time he parked, then Martin disappeared and reappeared before circling the truck. The wind rose and obscured some words when he was talking about seeing Martin, so it's not clear if he said that he saw Martin before or after he parked. (3:21-55)

With the possible exception of the reenactment, Zimmerman never explicitly said that he saw Martin before he parked on TTL, or explained why he parked at that time or that place.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 13, 2013, 12:29:04 AM
They weren't looking for the shooter.  As I understand it, they were looking to see if any of the cars were from outside the neighborhood to see if that would help in identifying the victim.

I didn't say that's who they were looking for. I said I'd be surprised if they didn't know his name. The fact that the dispatcher only gave the last name and nothing more seems to indicate the dispatcher knew who Zimmerman was and expected that the officer would also. I didn't say the officer definitely wrote down the location; I just objected to your assertion that he didn't.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 13, 2013, 12:39:05 AM
Zimmerman's recollections are clearly unreliable, but I know of no evidence that he was not at the clubhouse when he gave Noffke an address for it.

If you believe there is evidence that he was at the clubhouse when he offers the clubhouse address to Noffke, would that evidence be his statements to investigators after the incident?

I agree with leftwig's posts earlier in that by GZ choosing to say "the best address I can give you" seems to indicate the current situation wasn't literally taking place there.  Right after he offers the "best" address, his words seem to indicate he's actually viewing Martin at that time (using present-tense words), but if GZ is parked at the clubhouse, as indicated in the walk-through video, TM would have to have been approaching him from the direction of Taaffe's house, or be standing directly in front of him, like on the clubhouse porch, for GZ to have had a visual.  There was/is an abundance of foliage/trees blocking any view towards Twin Trees from that vantage point.

~25 seconds after giving the address, GZ says - "He's here now, he was just staring, looking at all the houses" (where is here?), ~15 seconds after that "Now he's coming towards me" (Where is GZ at that point?).  The way GZ says "Now he's coming towards me" seems to indicate that this is an alteration of the behavior preceding it, so if GZ is at the clubhouse at that time, TM would be walking towards the clubhouse, but for GZ to be able to see this (based on the foliage blocking his view of TTL), TM could only be coming from the direction of Taaffe's house (or some other random direction that hasn't been considered).

This whole ~45 second, "now he's coming towards me" incident seems to culminate with the "These assholes" comment.  About 5 seconds after that comment, he starts giving directions to Noffke, which includes going "past the clubhouse", and making a left, which to me sounds like directions to the approximate location his truck is at when he leaves his vehicle.

Anyway... I can't seem to make sense of any of GZ's comments on the NEN call if GZ is actually at the clubhouse when the call begins.  If GZ is already somewhere on TTL, with TM somewhere in the vicinity of the T, and within GZ's sights, the comments on the NEN call make a LOT more sense (IMO).

ETA:  I don't feel I fully completed my thought process here, but hopefully I've said enough to make what I'm trying to say understandable.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 01:05:55 AM
If you believe there is evidence that he was at the clubhouse when he offers the clubhouse address to Noffke, would that evidence be his statements to investigators after the incident?

Yes.

Quote
I agree with leftwig's posts earlier in that by GZ choosing to say "the best address I can give you" seems to indicate the current situation wasn't literally taking place there.

The situation was Martin, not Zimmerman.


 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 13, 2013, 01:13:45 AM
The situation was Martin, not Zimmerman.

I understand that, but it appears GZ has a visual of "the situation" (TM) at that very moment.  I tried to break it down with the rest of my post how it doesn't seem to make sense that GZ is at the clubhouse then.  I'm not sure if I was successful in expressing my thought process.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 01:16:53 AM
There was/is an abundance of foliage/trees blocking any view towards Twin Trees from that vantage point.

I don't know of any evidence that the foliage would have prevented Zimmerman from seeing a six foot person walking down the middle of TTL, as he told Singleton. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157630878225642/)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 13, 2013, 01:32:05 AM
I don't know of any evidence that the foliage would have prevented Zimmerman from seeing a six foot person walking down the middle of TTL, as he told Singleton. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157630878225642/)

Sorry, this is a bit long:

Quote
Singleton: OK. And then where do you go from there? This is where you start, when do you start calling the police, where are you?
Zimmerman: I pulled in front of the clubhouse.
Singleton: OK, did you pass him?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK, so he was here and you passed him and went over here.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK, put an “x” there that that’s where he…ah, just, ah, put “911” that that’s where you were when you called 911.
Zimmerman: Well, it was the non-emergency line.
Singleton: OK. Well, what…that’s where you called the police, right?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK, and then he’s behind you? He’s still over here, correct…
Zimmerman: I…
Singleton: Cause you pass him
Zimmerman: Right.
Singleton: OK, you pass him and this is where he’s looking in the houses, OK. And then…where do you go when you realize…you said he comes and he circles your car?
Zimmerman: No, ma’am. I lost contact of him as I was trying to get through cause you have to…

From the above, it sounds to me like he pulls into the clubhouse to "start" calling the police, but he "loses contact of him" (I presume this means he loses a visual), as he's trying to get through (which would still place GZ at the clubhouse, especially if we're entertaining the idea he was still at the clubhouse when he does finally get through, and the NEN call begins recording).
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 01:32:23 AM
~25 seconds after giving the address, GZ says - "He's here now,

Yes, the timeline is tight. I think Zimmerman would have to start backing out of the parking lot before he finished giving the address, maybe even before he started giving it. But it could still be fair to say he was 'at the clubhouse'.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 02:32:16 AM
The fact that the dispatcher only gave the last name and nothing more seems to indicate the dispatcher knew who Zimmerman was and expected that the officer would also.

Why would it indicate that?

I'm not sure she didn't give a first name. It sounds to me like a glitch in the recording at that point.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 02:40:26 AM
Right after he offers the "best" address, his words seem to indicate he's actually viewing Martin at that time (using present-tense words)

Zimmerman didn't say he could see Martin. Zimmerman might have been assuming Martin was still acting as he was when last seen, or just using 'narrative present'. I wouldn't assume Zimmerman could see Martin until he said 'He's here now . . .'
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 13, 2013, 02:48:29 AM
Why would it indicate that?

I'm not sure she didn't give a first name. It sounds to me like a glitch in the recording at that point.

It seems pretty obvious to me. Dispatchers don't normally respond to requests for license plate information by just giving the last name of the owner.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 03:26:13 AM
Dispatchers don't normally respond to requests for license plate information by just giving the last name of the owner.

Probably not, although honestly I don't what dispatchers normally do.

But your explanation makes no sense. If the officer knew George Zimmerman, he still wouldn't know he was the same Zimmerman.


Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 04:18:05 AM
Am I correct that Zimmerman was not questioned about, nor did he volunteer, his interaction with Martin from the first observation at Taafe's house to the time that he pulled into the clubhouse parking lot? 

What interaction?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 13, 2013, 05:15:38 AM
I didn't say that's who they were looking for. I said I'd be surprised if they didn't know his name. The fact that the dispatcher only gave the last name and nothing more seems to indicate the dispatcher knew who Zimmerman was and expected that the officer would also. I didn't say the officer definitely wrote down the location; I just objected to your assertion that he didn't.

Bernosky said "...tell me if it’s registered anywhere in Twin Lakes."

The dispatcher or whoever may not have known why he wanted to know, and perhaps thought he was talking to the driver or someone found near the vehicle and claiming ownership or at least the right to be driving it, and so just gave the registration name as a confirmation of its "neighborhoodness" along with that bit of additional information--or maybe it's SOP to give the registration name when tags are called in--and since the dispatcher did not say, no it's registered at an address elsewhere, it was assumed that the actual answer to the question was "Yes, it's registered in Twin Lakes."
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 05:16:01 AM
It sounded to me as if they were looking for Zimmerman's vehicle at the specific time of the tag request.

How so? I don't see any such indication in that transcript.

Quote
At first, I put the two tags close in time together which made it seem unlikely that the two were related since the dispatcher only uses the last name. Now that seperation is apparent, that argument becomes less persuasive.

I don't understand this.

I think the white Honda is the one that's usually parked there, which is seen in the Fox video from that night, and presumably also the 'big pickup truck' Zimmerman mentioned in the CVSA interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI) (28:46-54, 6:47:23-31).

The radio traffic, the event report (13/33 (http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/2012/09/GZ-Discovery-Redacted-0919.pdf)), and Bernosky's SAO summary (3/284 (http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf)), all converge on two tags being run.

The SAO summary says 'The tags came back to people in the complex'.

I've said before that these summaries are sketchy, and I'm cautious about reading anything into their silences. For what it's worth, there is nothing about Zimmerman, and nothing suggests any interest in the vehicles other than establishing that they were locally owned.

I don't hear any address information in the radio traffic, or the name of the owner of the white Honda. It seems a lot of information is missing from those recordings.

About 8:50 there's 'restrictions, corrective lenses'. Does George Zimmerman wear contact lenses?  I would be surprised I haven't heard of it. Martin had no ID on him. Who else would be getting their driver's license run?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 13, 2013, 05:26:36 AM
Good question, which the investigators never asked.

Closely related, why did he park at that time? He said he was looking for Martin, but he also indicated that he parked before seeing him.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

2/26-2, 3:25-36
This is one of the more variable parts of Zimmerman's story. In the reenactment, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) he said that he did catch sight of Martin about the time he parked, then Martin disappeared and reappeared before circling the truck. The wind rose and obscured some words when he was talking about seeing Martin, so it's not clear if he said that he saw Martin before or after he parked. (3:21-55)

With the possible exception of the reenactment, Zimmerman never explicitly said that he saw Martin before he parked on TTL, or explained why he parked at that time or that place.

It's a bit much to assume that Zimmerman pulled into the clubhouse* to dial or wait for the call to connect and let Martin walk past him and get as far as the "T" before getting back on the road and aiming his headlights east on TTL, so it seems more likely that he would have been moving east on TTL for at least the last part of Martin's eastbound travel to the "T" for the first time before coming back out of the dark to circle the truck, which means he saw Martin leave TTL for the east-west sidewalk the first time, so why didn't he get his headlights closer to the "T"?

*Which he could have reached while driving much sooner than Martin could have gotten there on foot coming from Frank's side yard.

Of course if Martin had taken the east-west sidewalk south of the clubhouse on the swimming pool side he could have been well past the "mail thing" and headed east on TTL before Zimmerman, sitting in his truck in front of the clubhouse, would have had a line of sight to him, but I'd think that would have caused him to drive quickly to catch up, stopping only to keep from going over the curb where TTL turns south in front of W11's house.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 13, 2013, 05:27:24 AM
What interaction?

Giving each other the evil eye?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 13, 2013, 05:33:45 AM

How so? I don't see any such indication in that transcript.

I don't understand this.

I think the white Honda is the one that's usually parked there, which is seen in the Fox video from that night, and presumably also the 'big pickup truck' Zimmerman mentioned in the CVSA interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI) (28:46-54, 6:47:23-31).

The radio traffic, the event report (13/33 (http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/2012/09/GZ-Discovery-Redacted-0919.pdf)), and Bernosky's SAO summary (3/284 (http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf)), all converge on two tags being run.

The SAO summary says 'The tags came back to people in the complex'.

I've said before that these summaries are sketchy, and I'm cautious about reading anything into their silences. For what it's worth, there is nothing about Zimmerman, and nothing suggests any interest in the vehicles other than establishing that they were locally owned.

I don't hear any address information in the radio traffic, or the name of the owner of the white Honda. It seems a lot of information is missing from those recordings.

About 8:50 there's 'restrictions, corrective lenses'. Does George Zimmerman wear contact lenses?  I would be surprised I haven't heard of it. Martin had no ID on him. Who else would be getting their driver's license run?

Are the white Honda and the big pickup both on TTL near the bend that night?

'Cause I think there's something like 15 minutes between calling in the white Honda and George's truck.

And was the big pickup ever called in?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 06:16:31 AM
Are the white Honda and the big pickup both on TTL near the bend that night?

And was the big pickup ever called in?

What I was trying to say is that I think the white Honda ('HOND color WHI') of the event report, the 'big pickup truck' of the CVSA interview, and the truck seen in the Fox video, are all the same vehicle.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 06:23:34 AM
'Cause I think there's something like 15 minutes between calling in the white Honda and George's truck.

The event report has the white Honda about 8:33, the gray one about 8:47.

That's when the information was typed in, so possibly some time after the calls.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 06:34:49 AM
why didn't he get his headlights closer to the "T"?

The average range of high beam headlights is 'about 350 feet'. (http://www.roadtripamerica.com/forum/content.php?31)

Zimmerman's headlights could have been way below average, and he would still be plenty close to the T.

At times Zimmerman explicitly said his headlights illuminated the cut-through, while at others times he seemed to imply the area was dark. (I mean before he got out of his truck. After his headlights would have cut off is another matter.)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 13, 2013, 06:43:09 AM
What I was trying to say is that I think the white Honda ('HOND color WHI') of the event report, the 'big pickup truck' of the CVSA interview, and the truck seen in the Fox video, are all the same vehicle.

Wasn't that big pickup parked near the bend in TTL?

If so, seems the times should be closer.

Or am I getting confused by the one in all of the aerial shots?

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 07:20:38 AM
If so, seems the times should be closer.

I don't see what the one thing has to do with the other. It would take about a minute to walk from the northern T to the southern one.

Quote
Or am I getting confused by the one in all of the aerial shots?

I think that's the same truck, and the one in the reenactment. Yes, at the bend in TTL.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 13, 2013, 07:42:04 AM
I don't see what the one thing has to do with the other. It would take about a minute to walk from the northern T to the southern one.

Wouldn't the southern one be south of Brandy Green's house?

That's more than a one minute walk.


I think that's the same truck, and the one in the reenactment. Yes, at the bend in TTL.

Aren't both the big truck and Zimmerman's truck parked near the bend in TTL by W11's house?

That's far less than a 15 minute walk.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 08:05:08 AM
Aren't both the big truck and Zimmerman's truck parked near the bend in TTL by W11's house?

Yes.

Quote
That's far less than a 15 minute walk.

The 7-11 is a 15 minute walk.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on April 13, 2013, 10:54:56 AM
I think it would be very unlikely that the officers canvassing the area wouldn't know the name of the shooter.

One of the officers, the one that took the cell phone pictures, was showing it to people to see if they recognized either Zimmerman or Martin.

uni, In one of the pictures where the officer is looking westward caught the back end of a Nissan truck.  That is a reason for him to park further back from the E-W sidewalk.  IIRC, he changed the position of his truck on the google map that Singleton supplied to him.  Slightly closer by maybe a cars length.

I have no reason not to think that dash cams in the LE cars arriving on the TTL side would not have picked up the position of the truck.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Kyreth on April 13, 2013, 01:35:44 PM
It's not likely George was at the clubhouse when he connected with Noffke.  George did try and connect and was on hold for some time before getting through, so he probably was at the clubhouse when he first called but parked elsewhere by the time he got through.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: ding7777 on April 13, 2013, 01:41:10 PM
...  In fact Zimmerman must have annoyed him enough to cause the later confrontation.  ...

TM is soaking wet and if TM got to Green's house but could not get in (TM did not have keys on him; Chad was playing a video game w/headphones and did not hear him). Would this have annoyed TM enough to initiate a confrontation without GZ doing anything?

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on April 13, 2013, 02:31:53 PM
IF TM had gotten to BG's and couldn't get in, I would think one of two things (probably both) would have occurred).  He would have told Dee Dee and/or he would have called Chad to let him in.  It appears he did neither.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 13, 2013, 03:04:00 PM
It's not likely George was at the clubhouse when he connected with Noffke.  George did try and connect and was on hold for some time before getting through, so he probably was at the clubhouse when he first called but parked elsewhere by the time he got through.

To the part BBM, how do you know this for certain?

I agree that what you say is likely, but I don't really have anything, which is, IMO, solid to base it on.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on April 13, 2013, 04:53:21 PM
IF TM had gotten to BG's and couldn't get in, I would think one of two things (probably both) would have occurred).  He would have told Dee Dee and/or he would have called Chad to let him in.  It appears he did neither.
Doesn't the Esquire Magazine article say that Trayvon left the patio door unlocked so he could get back in?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on April 13, 2013, 05:15:03 PM
What interaction?
I was asking about Zimmerman's account of his and Martin's movements between Taafe's and the clubhouse.  If you recall Dave Knechel's video interview of Taafe, Frank couldn't understand why Martin didn't take the diagonal shortcut by the pond to get to Brandy's townhouse, as any resident would to get home as quickly as possible in the rain.  He would have avoided having Zimmerman follow him that way.  Maybe Trayvon just didn't know any better.  In order for Martin to get annoyed, Zimmerman must have made his tailing obvious to Martin before the NEN call started since he describes Martin's threatening behavior early in the call, apparently before he drove onto TTL.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 06:27:24 PM
In order for Martin to get annoyed, Zimmerman must have . . .

If you know what Zimmerman 'must have' done to annoy Martin, you know something I don't.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 13, 2013, 06:35:21 PM
Yes.

The 7-11 is a 15 minute walk.

The white Honda was parked at the 7-Eleven?

 ;D
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 13, 2013, 06:38:17 PM
One of the officers, the one that took the cell phone pictures, was showing it to people to see if they recognized either Zimmerman or Martin.

uni, In one of the pictures where the officer is looking westward caught the back end of a Nissan truck.  That is a reason for him to park further back from the E-W sidewalk.  IIRC, he changed the position of his truck on the google map that Singleton supplied to him.  Slightly closer by maybe a cars length.

I have no reason not to think that dash cams in the LE cars arriving on the TTL side would not have picked up the position of the truck.


You don't think the dash cams didn't pick up the truck?

If I don't hear differently, I'm going to assume one more negative than necessary to say what you actually meant snuck into your last sentence while you weren't looking.

 :)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on April 13, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
If you know what Zimmerman 'must have' done to annoy Martin, you know something I don't.
It's called process of elimination.  Zimmerman didn't have any opportunities to do anything else to irritate Martin while he was in his truck besides following.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 06:56:09 PM
One of the officers, the one that took the cell phone pictures, was showing it to people to see if they recognized either Zimmerman or Martin.

About 7:30, Serino contacted the duty officer, Lt. Mike Taylor, via Nextel. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nextel_Communications) Taylor's briefing of Serino identified the shooter as 'George Michael Zimmerman'. (37/184 (http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf))

The event report records running the tag for the white Honda about 8:33 (13/33 (http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/2012/09/GZ-Discovery-Redacted-0919.pdf)).

That doesn't have to mean Bernosky knew, but the name was available about an hour or more before the first tag was run.

Quote
IIRC, he changed the position of his truck on the google map that Singleton supplied to him.  Slightly closer by maybe a cars length.

More like the length of a building. (Maps. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157630981402972/detail/))

Quote
I have no reason not to think that dash cams in the LE cars arriving on the TTL side would not have picked up the position of the truck.

Good point.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 13, 2013, 07:03:11 PM
I was asking about Zimmerman's account of his and Martin's movements between Taafe's and the clubhouse.  If you recall Dave Knechel's video interview of Taafe, Frank couldn't understand why Martin didn't take the diagonal shortcut by the pond to get to Brandy's townhouse, as any resident would to get home as quickly as possible in the rain.  He would have avoided having Zimmerman follow him that way.  Maybe Trayvon just didn't know any better.  In order for Martin to get annoyed, Zimmerman must have made his tailing obvious to Martin before the NEN call started since he describes Martin's threatening behavior early in the call, apparently before he drove onto TTL.

The description of "threating behavior" begins 45 seconds into the call.

Quote
Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
Dispatcher: Okay, he's just walking around the area...
Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: Okay...
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: Okay. You said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse... [Note 3, 3rd picture]
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: Okay.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.


so the drive to TTL has to occur during

Quote
Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...
Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: Okay, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

so if Sean answered while George was at the clubhouse, he'd have to have pulled out and gone down TTL very shortly into "Hey, we've had some break-ins...", because the circling supposedly happened beginning with " Yeah, now he's coming towards me."
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 07:04:15 PM
The white Honda was parked at the 7-Eleven?

 ;D

Exactly.

Bernosky walked to the 7-11, found a white Honda there and called it in around 8:30. Then he walked back to RATL, and called in Zimmerman's gray/silver Honda around 8:45.

Mystery solved.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: AJ on April 13, 2013, 07:12:20 PM
The description of "threating behavior" begins 45 seconds into the call.


so the drive to TTL has to occur during

so if Sean answered while George was at the clubhouse, he'd have to have pulled out and gone down TTL very shortly into "Hey, we've had some break-ins...", because the circling supposedly happened beginning with " Yeah, now he's coming towards me."

I still say at the 15 second mark you hear a turn signal indicating he's turning right onto TTL, and at 1:09 you hear him putting his vehicle into park.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 07:14:10 PM
I still say at the 15 second mark you hear a turn signal indicating he's turning right onto TTL, and at 1:09 you hear him putting his vehicle into park.

Many people say many things about the non-vocal noises on the NEN recording.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: AJ on April 13, 2013, 07:16:22 PM
Many people say many things about the non-vocal noises on the NEN recording.

Fair enough. What do you think the tick-tock-tick-tock sound at 0:15 is? I have yet to hear another theory on that sound.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 07:22:33 PM
What do you think the tick-tock-tick-tock sound at 0:15 is?

I don't hear it.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 07:41:09 PM
George did try and connect and was on hold for some time before getting through

I agree that what you say is likely, but I don't really have anything, which is, IMO, solid to base it on.

I don't think it's all that likely. The conjecture stems from a single, ambiguous observation that was interrupted in the middle.

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 08:09:58 PM
Doesn't the Esquire Magazine article say that Trayvon left the patio door unlocked so he could get back in?

No. (http://www.esquire.com/features/americans-2012/trayvon-martin-1212)

Quote
He slid open the glass door of the patio and slipped out into the steamy Florida twilight, an ordinary thing on an ordinary night.

That's all the article says about the patio door. Nothing about whether Trayvon locked it after himself, or whether Chad locked it after he left.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 08:13:44 PM
IF TM had gotten to BG's and couldn't get in, I would think one of two things (probably both) would have occurred).  He would have told Dee Dee and/or he would have called Chad to let him in.  It appears he did neither.

Chad might not have heard the phone. Dee Dee's whole story could be fabricated. I don't know that the phone records released by ABC have been confirmed to be for a phone Trayvon was using that night.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 13, 2013, 09:48:43 PM
Chad might not have heard the phone. Dee Dee's whole story could be fabricated. I don't know that the phone records released by ABC have been confirmed to be for a phone Trayvon was using that night.

Supposedly Chad was just talking with TM minutes before. Wouldn't he have been waiting for TM to arrive?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 13, 2013, 09:52:59 PM
I still say at the 15 second mark you hear a turn signal indicating he's turning right onto TTL, and at 1:09 you hear him putting his vehicle into park.

The sound at the 15 second mark (16 second for my .WAV file), for my money, is his windshield wipers, on an intermittent delay.  The exact same sound (maybe ever so slightly magnified) is heard at the 1:00 mark.  It's heard again at the 1:16 mark.  I think I hear it again at the 1:53/1:54 mark.  I think I may also hear it at the 0:30/0:31 second mark, but Noffke's voice is drowning it out.  I was trying to time the delay between the sounds, to get a set interval in seconds.  It seems they're mostly 15 seconds apart, but the one I think I hear at 1:53/1:54 puts that timing off.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 13, 2013, 09:55:24 PM
I don't know that the phone records released by ABC have been confirmed to be for a phone Trayvon was using that night.

I missed that part. Do you mean the phone found at the scene might not be the phone in the phone records, or that TM might not have been using that phone? The first theory seems to be contradicted by the phone records' entry for the 911 call from the police that was used to determine the phone number.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 13, 2013, 09:56:35 PM
I agree that what you say is likely, but I don't really have anything, which is, IMO, solid to base it on.


I don't think it's all that likely. The conjecture stems from a single, ambiguous observation that was interrupted in the middle.

Which single observation are you referring to?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 10:15:27 PM
Do you mean the phone found at the scene might not be the phone in the phone records, or that TM might not have been using that phone?

Either.

Quote
The first theory seems to be contradicted by the phone records' entry for the 911 call from the police that was used to determine the phone number.

Good point. I had forgotten about that.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 10:40:02 PM
Which single observation are you referring to?

2/26-2, 1:36-47
Quote
Singleton: And then, where do you go, when you realize, you said he comes, and he circles your car?

Zimmerman: No, ma'am. I lost contact of him, as I was trying to get through, because you have to-

Singleton: So does he continue past you?

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 13, 2013, 10:45:03 PM
2/26-2, 1:36-47
Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

Are we discussing whether or not he was at the clubhouse when the call connected, or whether or not there was a delay in getting through to the dispatcher when initially calling?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on April 13, 2013, 10:46:03 PM

You don't think the dash cams didn't pick up the truck?

If I don't hear differently, I'm going to assume one more negative than necessary to say what you actually meant snuck into your last sentence while you weren't looking.

 :)

 ;D ;D ;D  Agreed. Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee!
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 13, 2013, 10:58:04 PM
Are we discussing whether or not he was at the clubhouse when the call connected, or whether or not there was a delay in getting through to the dispatcher when initially calling?

Neither.

George did try and connect and was on hold for some time before getting through

Zimmerman indicated some kind of delay, although he only mentioned it once. He never specifically said he was 'on hold'.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: AJ on April 13, 2013, 11:13:31 PM
The sound at the 15 second mark (16 second for my .WAV file), for my money, is his windshield wipers, on an intermittent delay.  The exact same sound (maybe ever so slightly magnified) is heard at the 1:00 mark.  It's heard again at the 1:16 mark.  I think I hear it again at the 1:53/1:54 mark.  I think I may also hear it at the 0:30/0:31 second mark, but Noffke's voice is drowning it out.  I was trying to time the delay between the sounds, to get a set interval in seconds.  It seems they're mostly 15 seconds apart, but the one I think I hear at 1:53/1:54 puts that timing off.

There is a windshield wiper OVER the sound that I'm speaking of - you have to listen closely to the "silence" between the words of Mr. Zimmerman, and the windshield wiper. If you're not using headphones you probably will not hear it.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 14, 2013, 12:06:47 AM
;D ;D ;D  Agreed. Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee!

Which is entirely his right, but I wish he didn't insist on constantly reminding me of it.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 14, 2013, 12:28:19 AM
Zimmerman indicated some kind of delay, although he only mentioned it once. He never specifically said he was 'on hold'.

I agree that he never specified he was 'on hold', but he mentions a delay at least twice:

From here - Complete Transcript, Singleton Interview, 2nd Tape, 2/26/2012 (https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=996)

Quote
Zimmerman: No, ma’am. I lost contact of him as I was trying to get through cause you have to…
Singleton: So does he continue past you?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK. So he continues past you and you lose sight of him over here.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK, so just draw an arrow where he continues to pass you.
Zimmerman: He continues to pass me through here…and then he goes down here. You want me to (unintelligible)…
Singleton: And then he goes somewhere here where you can’t see him.
Zimmerman: Correct.
Singleton: So just go to about where he, where you think he might have been be.., to where you lose sight of him.
Zimmerman: He started going here and then behind these houses.
Singleton: OK. And you could see that from here?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: And then when he gets behind the houses you lose sight.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK. And you said this, this….at some point he comes back and circles your car? Has he already done that?
Zimmerman: He looked into my vehicle…
Singleton: OK.
Zimmerman: But he didn’t circle it at that point in time.
Singleton: OK, when does he come…you’re still, you’re still in the car talking to 911, right?
Zimmerman: I’m trying to get through, yes ma’am.

He also mentions TM walking past him at the clubhouse in the Serino interview here: Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyzw-UM_WU&t=54m41s), as well as pulling into the clubhouse before calling the NEN.  If TM is approaching GZ, parked at the clubhouse, from the direction of Taaffe's house, TM would have to have been right on GZ's tail if he passes GZ at the clubhouse before the call connects to Noffke, unless there is a delay in the call connecting, or unless, for some reason, GZ didn't call right away when he pulled into the clubhouse (and waited for TM to walk by or something).  I say that because: 1) - Nothing GZ says at the beginning of the NEN call seems to indicate TM is walking past him (or has just walked past him), and 2) - I don't think there is enough time on the NEN call for TM to have passed GZ at the clubhouse (if for some reason GZ didn't mention that on the NEN call), then for GZ to have driven past TM onto TTL (not sure why GZ would have driven past him), and for TM to have paused ("He's here now, just staring", etc.), then to continue walking (from the clubhouse) towards a GZ parked further down on TTL ("Now he's coming towards me"), and to make it to the T ("sh*t, he's running).

http://imgur.com/ubvU2yr

For the above scenario to work out, GZ would have to have driven a good ways past TM on TTL as well, since "Now he's coming towards me", til the point it appears TM is past him is 35 seconds (from 0:55 to 1:30).  If TM is moving at a normal walking pace of 3 miles/hour, GZ would have to have driven approx ~150 feet past him for TM to have taken 35 seconds to reach and pass GZ's vehicle at that 3 m.p.h. speed.

The only way the NEN call and GZ's story makes sense is if there is a delay getting connected with Noffke initially.  If there is a delay, then the NEN call and GZ's story line up.  Things get so incredibly convoluted trying to make sense of it any other way.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 01:13:36 AM
The only way the NEN call and GZ's story makes sense . . .

I am not convinced that the NEN call and Zimmerman's story can be combined in any way that makes sense.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 14, 2013, 01:19:26 AM
I am not convinced that the NEN call and Zimmerman's story can be combined in any way that makes sense.

I'm specifically referring to the parts of his story that he claims happened prior to the circling event (I believe the circling event happens from approx 0:55 to 1:30).

Depending on the length of the delay (if it exists at all) from the time GZ initially dials the NEN til the time he's connected to Noffke, and thus the time the call we're all familiar with begins recording, that part of the story can be quite acceptable/understandable, IMO.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Kyreth on April 14, 2013, 01:51:06 AM
Neither.

Zimmerman indicated some kind of delay, although he only mentioned it once. He never specifically said he was 'on hold'.

Right, George mentioned he was trying to get through during his interview.  I talked with George's brother about it a bit as well, which is where I got that he was on hold.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: AJ on April 14, 2013, 02:37:35 AM
I believe he was placed on "hold". I did work for a short period of time as a 911 dispatcher (less than 6 months on the phones), but not for Sanford so I can't speak of their system specifically. If you recall, Sean Noffke also took the 911 call for W18. This leads me to believe that it is a single center where both non-emergency and 911 calls are dispatched from (it's not like this everywhere - in some places they do have different centers). When you call the non-emergency line you're placed in a queue that progresses based upon the speed of disposing the 911 calls. Again, I didn't work in Sanford, but if they have the same type of set up then that could (and probably does) explain the delay.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 14, 2013, 02:45:25 AM
I thought I remembered thinking that was Noffke's voice on the line with 18 and then reading later a different name on a report somewhere.

You know that old theater/ball game saying about "You can't tell the players without a program"?

Never more true.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: AJ on April 14, 2013, 02:58:01 AM
I thought I remembered thinking that was Noffke's voice on the line with 18 and then reading later a different name on a report somewhere.

You know that old theater/ball game saying about "You can't tell the players without a program"?

Never more true.

After reviewing the W18 call, I'm not so sure it's him either.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 03:15:24 AM
W-18's call was taken by an L. Miller (21/33 (http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/2012/09/GZ-Discovery-Redacted-0919.pdf)).

Noffke may have taken the call from W-15 (Sierra McLendon), but if so it was mislabeled as an NEN call (23/33).

I think it is true that the same dispatchers take both types of call. I think that was mentioned in a profile of Noffke that appeared in the media ages ago.

ETA: In the event reports, an NEN call should have 'TEL' after 'Call Source:'.
 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: AJ on April 14, 2013, 03:24:55 AM
Noffke may have taken the call from W-15 (Sierra McLendon), but if so it was mislabeled as an NEN call (23/33).

That sounds more like him, and yes, it was probably mislabeled as the dispatcher answers the call as "911, do you need police, fire or medical?" and in the non-emergency call he says "Sanford Police Department, the line is being recorded, this is Sean"
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 14, 2013, 04:26:09 AM
That sounds more like him, and yes, it was probably mislabeled as the dispatcher answers the call as "911, do you need police, fire or medical?" and in the non-emergency call he says "Sanford Police Department, the line is being recorded, this is Sean"

Agreed, sounds exactly like him to my ears.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on April 14, 2013, 08:34:09 AM
I'm specifically referring to the parts of his story that he claims happened prior to the circling event (I believe the circling event happens from approx 0:55 to 1:30).

Depending on the length of the delay (if it exists at all) from the time GZ initially dials the NEN til the time he's connected to Noffke, and thus the time the call we're all familiar with begins recording, that part of the story can be quite acceptable/understandable, IMO.
Are you considering the possibility that there were two instances of Martin approaching Zimmerman's truck?  The first was at the clubhouse and is described in real time on the NEN call.  The second happened while Zimmerman was on TTL and Zimmerman didn't describe it then since he was busy, attempting to give an explanation where his car was at that point.  The first was never described as a circling, just an approach to check Zimmerman out.  The second was described as a circling in later interviews including the walk through. 
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: unitron on April 14, 2013, 09:13:12 AM
Are you considering the possibility that there were two instances of Martin approaching Zimmerman's truck?  The first was at the clubhouse and is described in real time on the NEN call.  The second happened while Zimmerman was on TTL and Zimmerman didn't describe it then since he was busy, attempting to give an explanation where his car was at that point.  The first was never described as a circling, just an approach to check Zimmerman out.  The second was described as a circling in later interviews including the walk through.

If he's at the clubhouse for any of that call and the "he's coming to check me out, I don't know what his deal is" bit is a description of a non-circling passing by, that doesn't leave a whole lot of time for Martin to disappear into the dark while Zimmerman drives down TTL and parks and then to come back out and circle before George announces that he's running and jumps out on foot.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 14, 2013, 02:00:01 PM
Are you considering the possibility that there were two instances of Martin approaching Zimmerman's truck?  The first was at the clubhouse and is described in real time on the NEN call.  The second happened while Zimmerman was on TTL and Zimmerman didn't describe it then since he was busy, attempting to give an explanation where his car was at that point.  The first was never described as a circling, just an approach to check Zimmerman out.  The second was described as a circling in later interviews including the walk through.

I just had written a long, detailed explanation of how there wasn't enough time... but this forum likes to log you out after a relatively brief period of time.  Maybe I need to update my forum settings... ugh...

Anyway, like unitron said above, there wasn't enough time for the event that apparently concludes at 1:30 on the NEN call to have taken place at the clubhouse, AND for a circling event to have taken place later, somewhere along TTL, before the "sh*t, he's running" comment is made ~35 seconds afterward.

http://i.imgur.com/EjEQGyh.png
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 02:23:43 PM
The second happened while Zimmerman was on TTL and Zimmerman didn't describe it then since he was busy, attempting to give an explanation where his car was at that point.

I've addressed that before. The timeline rules it out. If a passing at the clubhouse is what's reflected on the NEN recording, there isn't time for another one on TTL.

I think Zimmerman's voice on the NEN recording is at it's most tense on 'get an officer over here,' and at it's most relaxed during the directions. That would make a passing during the latter far-fetched, even without the timeline issue.

Quote
  The first was never described as a circling, just an approach to check Zimmerman out.

In the SPD interviews, Zimmerman said that Martin looked at him as the passed at the clubhouse. The 'coming to check me out' language is from the NEN recording. I don't Zimmerman alluded to it at any time in the SPD interviews.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 02:40:36 PM
I just had written a long, detailed explanation of how there wasn't enough time...

That's been done a few times. RJ just keeps ignoring it.

Unitron, MJW, and I did it in response to a timeline Jeralyn proposed some time ago.

Quote
this forum likes to log you out after a relatively brief period of time.  Maybe I need to update my forum settings... ugh...

I've never had that problem. I don't recall anyone else mentioning it either.

I like to compose long posts in Notepad, saving from time to time. I've been doing that for a long time, not just on this forum.

You might be interested in this (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157631453946968/detail/). (Click a photo to enlarge and see all the text. Right click for a menu.)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on April 14, 2013, 03:26:30 PM
That's been done a few times. RJ just keeps ignoring it.

Unitron, MJW, and I did it in response to a timeline Jeralyn proposed some time ago.
Nobody has posted a timeline along with irrefutable logic that supports it.  That includes specifying exactly what the assumptions are.  I guess nobody believes Zimmerman's commentary on the NEN call during the third interview (https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079) with Serino and Singleton.  He claims to still be at the clubhouse until at least 1:16 on the call and insists the first close encounter with Martin happened before then.  Unfortunately they didn't have the tape of the reenactment to ask him to explain the circling after he had parked on TTL.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 04:18:06 PM
Nobody has posted a timeline along with irrefutable logic that supports it.

Red herring.

Martin seems to be passing the truck about 1:30 on the NEN recording. Zimmerman has him starting to run at about 2:05, at which time Zimmerman was already parked on TTL. That's barely time for Zimmerman or Martin to reach their respective places (unless Martin did some running that Zimmerman didn't mention). Certainly there was no time for a second passing.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: RickyJim on April 14, 2013, 05:09:35 PM
Are you assuming Zimmerman is accurately stating what he is seeing on the NEN call, using the correct tenses?  If so, which of his subsequent statements, describing the situation from seeing Martin by Taafe's up to "Sh*t, he's running.", are not correct?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 14, 2013, 06:03:54 PM
I guess nobody believes Zimmerman's commentary on the NEN call during the third interview (https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079) with Serino and Singleton.  He claims to still be at the clubhouse until at least 1:16 on the call and insists the first close encounter with Martin happened before then.  Unfortunately they didn't have the tape of the reenactment to ask him to explain the circling after he had parked on TTL.

I went into detail about my thoughts on what you're referring to in another GZ/TM thread on another forum.  This is a mostly word-for-word quote.  The 2nd and 3rd paragraphs are the most relevant I think.  You'll have to actually listen to the intonation of how the words are said, in the link I've provided, rather than just read the transcripts:

Quote
GZ has ADD, ADD is known to have a significant effect on memory. He has attempted to detail what he remembers of that night. Many things are consistent from interview to interview; sometimes things aren't totally consistent, or even contradictory. If you actually look at all the statements combined, you can begin to piece together a somewhat coherent story of what likely actually happened. I don't think this is him being intentionally deceitful, I think this is him struggling with his memory, and being a poor communicator in general. Listen to all the times he seems to give absent minded "Yes ma'ams" or things of that nature, when it doesn't even appear that he knows what the investigator is referring to.

Listen to this excerpt here, especially from the beginning (where the link picks up the interview) to about 52:29, and even moreso from 51:52 to 52:02. Listen to how much Singleton stutters/stumbles with her words when she's trying to ask GZ a question. How could he understand what she's saying? At 52:02 he just politely says "Yes ma'am", and in doing so, he's contradicting (apparently absentmindedly) his statements he gave to Singleton two days prior. At 52:13 he seems to answer a question she doesn't even ask. Even she seems to be unsure that he knows what he's saying with the way she says "Ok...." at 52:29.

Continue listening to 54:49 for the entire confusing exchange there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyzw-UM_WU&t=51m40s

Keep in mind that this is the very first time he's heard the NEN call, and he's having to spontaneously make sense of the fact that what he remembers and what actually happened, aren't apparently in sync, all while being questioned by two police investigators over a homicide he's involved in. He says "I don't remember even saying he had a button on his shirt". Listen to the deteriorating confidence in his "I think so's". He ends it with a bewildered "I don't remember..." Is all of that just feigned confusion?

Given the above, I don't think even GZ would "believe" his commentary on the NEN call given during that interview.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 06:56:37 PM
Quote
ADD is known to have a significant effect on memory.

Do you have a link to an authoritative description of how ADD affects memory?

Quote
Quote
Listen to all the times . . . it doesn't even appear that he knows what the investigator is referring to.

Examples?

Quote
Quote
How could he understand what she's saying? At 52:02 he just politely says "Yes ma'am"

This is an arbitrary interpretation. I understand Singleton's question, and it seems you do as well. I see no reason to think Zimmerman didn't.

In a police interrogation, giving a 'polite' affirmative to a question not understood, would be very foolish.

Zimmerman wasn't shy about offering explanations and corrections. If he didn't understand a question, I think he would say so.

Quote
Quote
he's contradicting (apparently absentmindedly) his statements he gave to Singleton two days prior.

What statements did he contradict?

To me Zimmerman sounds fully focused, not the least bit absent minded.

Quote
Quote
Even she seems to be unsure that he knows what he's saying with the way she says "Ok...." at 52:29.

To me it sounds like she doesn't believe him. The subtext of the preceding question might be rendered: You're sticking with that story?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 14, 2013, 09:00:21 PM
Do you have a link to an authoritative description of how ADD affects memory?
Not sure if this will be satisfactory for you, if you're specifically looking for "how" it affects memory.  If you do a basic Google search for "ADHD and memory" there's a large list of results to choose from.  Here's a couple links:

http://www.insideadhd.org/Article.aspx?id=1108
Quote
Memory impairment can often be present in people with ADHD, and could make remembering the rules of the road or complicated directions difficult.

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&UID=2000-05190-004
Quote
Schizophrenia and attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) are both associated with deficits in inhibition and working memory, although in ADHD the working memory deficit is hypothesized to be secondary to the inhibitory deficit.

Examples?
I don't have time to fish up specific time stamps, but it's often when they're asking him things like "You understand why this is a problem, right?" or "You understand why this doesn't make sense, right?".  He seems to oftentimes quickly say "Yes, sir", or "Yes, ma'am", but never offers to further explain, he just nods politely giving them the positive/affirmative response they seem to be seeking.

This is an arbitrary interpretation. I understand Singleton's question, and it seems you do as well. I see no reason to think Zimmerman didn't.
I understand it now with the ability to rewind it and play it back multiple times so I don't get thrown off by all her stuttering, etc.  GZ didn't have that ability in that moment though.

Quote
Singleton: Now you’re saying he’s coming up to your car. Does that mean you’ve already, at this point in the tape, you’re already on Twin Tree, the street you didn’t know the name of at the time?
Zimmerman: Um, no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
Notice here how he isn't even addressing her question.  She's asking him to connect the events he's hearing on tape, for the first time, at that very moment, to his memory of the events of the night in question, and to compare them to what he told her two nights previous as well (before he was able to listen to the tape).  He already seems confused about things he's said on the tape, so it appears he's struggling to make sense of what he's hearing on the tape (what actually happened) with what his memory of the events had been up to that point.

In a police interrogation, giving a 'polite' affirmative to a question not understood, would be very foolish.
I agree.  I think it's abundantly clear, via all the interviews, reenactments, voice examplars, etc., all without legal counsel, that GZ was making no attempts to avoid "foolishness".

Zimmerman wasn't shy about offering explanations and corrections. If he didn't understand a question, I think he would say so.
Well, perhaps he misunderstood her question, without realizing it.  I think the excerpt that I listed above gives an example of that.  Here's another example of GZ not understanding what the investigators (Serino in this example) is asking of him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyzw-UM_WU&t=1h2m25s

Quote
Serino: It’s 84 seconds. From the point where you were walking back to your car from Retreat View to Twin Tree basically.
Singleton: It’s what, about 30 feet.
Serino: That’s a minute and…20 seconds. Did you stop at the “T”?

Here Serino is asking him if he stopped at the T on the way BACK to his truck, from RVC to TTL (when he claims TM attacked him).

Quote
Zimmerman: No, I walked through. I stopped on Retreat View Circle.

Here GZ is explaining that he didn't stop at the T on his way TO RVC.  He obviously doesn't understand what Serino is asking him.

Quote
Serino: That’s where you were standing?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: OK. But you didn’t get back into your car?
Zimmerman: No, sir.
Serino: Why not?
Zimmerman: I was…
Why not?  Duh... because TM attacked him.  Serino is asking him why he didn't get back in his truck, because Serino thinks GZ is explaining that he walked through the T back to his truck, but GZ is describing how he walked through to RVC, from TTL (which happens during the NEN call).

What statements did he contradict?

To me Zimmerman sounds fully focused, not the least bit absent minded.
I'm not sure if I see a contradiction now.  I just think he didn't understand her question.

To me it sounds like she doesn't believe him. The subtext of the preceding question might be rendered: You're sticking with that story?
Fair enough.  I believe it's an "OK....", like "suit yourself..." as in, she tried to get him on the right track, but he's sticking to his guns (which he shortly thereafter falters, with all his "I think so's" and "I don't remember..."

Here's another quote about Serino noticing that GZ seems to be confused:

Quote
Serino: It’s a minute and 20 seconds. It doesn’t sound like you were saying, well it doesn’t sound like you quite recall exactly what happened at that point, OK?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 09:13:21 PM
Here's another quote about Serino noticing that GZ seems to be confused:

I don't disagree that Zimmerman was confused. I just had some questions about specific points.

Thanks for the response.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 10:36:16 PM
Why not?  Duh... because TM attacked him.

That's like saying Martin didn't go home because Zimmerman shot him.

Zimmerman had said that he was walking back to his car while he was giving directions.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

2/29-3, 10:35-51
Quote
[Recording]
(D) Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
(Z) Yeah.
(D) Alright, where are you gonna meet with them at?
(Z) If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse -

Serino: What are you doing right now?

Zimmerman: Walking back to my car.

This was about a minute before the end of the call.

In the reenactment Zimmerman took about 20 seconds to walk from RVC to the place he said Martin attacked him, and he wasn't walking briskly.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on April 15, 2013, 07:34:24 AM
That's been done a few times. RJ just keeps ignoring it.

Unitron, MJW, and I did it in response to a timeline Jeralyn proposed some time ago.

I've never had that problem. I don't recall anyone else mentioning it either.

I like to compose long posts in Notepad, saving from time to time. I've been doing that for a long time, not just on this forum.

You might be interested in this (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157631453946968/detail/). (Click a photo to enlarge and see all the text. Right click for a menu.)

Log out then log back in.   Under the password are two options.  It is automatically set to time out after 60 minutes.  Change it to ALWAYS instead.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on April 15, 2013, 12:02:41 PM
Agreed.

I don't see how either point [that Sean asking what address GZ was parked in front of is common vernacular for an address of your location] is relevant. It seems much of this discussion is at cross purposes.

The relevance is that GZ, like everyone else, wouldn't have interpreted Seans request to be literal in only providing an address of the location that he was was parked directly in front of and that giving the address of a nearest apartment (no more than about 10 feet away) would suffice to answer the request.

Quote
I'm not convinced Zimmerman told the truth about where he left the truck, but I have been assuming that for this discussion.
I think its highly possible his representation of where his SUV was located upon exiting may not have been accurate.  I have no reason to believe he was not being truthful about where he believed the truck to have been parked.

Quote
Certainly not. Where do you get that idea [that GZ knew the name of TTL while talking with Sean, but chose not to mention it]?

Was trying to come up with an explanation for why you believe GZ would have responded to Sean's request for an address location on his SUV with "I don't know, its a cut through" with the "cut through" reference being a sidewalk.  Whether he was parked in front of the SW or NE sidewalk "cut throughs", I can't think of why GZ would have worded his answer this way.  Both cut throughs are located right next to town homes that were within a few feet, which he could have easily used in answer to Seans request.  The more likely explanation for GZ to say "I don't know" would be because he didn't know the address of any landmark that had an actual address to provide Sean.  Since he could have seen the house numbers from several homes, the logical conclusion is that he didn't know the street name and this would be the reason he couldn't provide Sean with an address, not because side walk "cut throughs" don't have addresses.

Personally, I do believe GZ "knew" the name of TTL, but at the moment he was trying to relay it, couldn't pull it from his memory.  Maybe its easy for me to believe it because on occasion, I have the same issue at recalling trivial pieces of information on quick notice.

Quote
Neither you nor MJW have addressed the issue that I think is decisive.

It is quite common for a street that 'cuts through' a neighborhood to be the neighborhood's major artery. I think that arrangement is more common than one like RATL, with the main street encircling the neighborhood. Even if such a layout is very common in the gated communities of Sanford, I doubt it is so predominate that someone would expect 'cut-through' to be automatically understood as equivalent to 'secondary street'. Without such an expectation, saying the street is 'a cut-through' is no explanation for not knowing an address.
I can't speak as to how common the layout is that you describe.  I can talk to the specific layout of RaTL.  As we are all aware of, there is a road (RVC) that circles the complex and is the address that the clubhouse uses.  Roughly 90 percent of all homes in the complex are located on this outer loop.  As you mention, this is clearly the main road for residents in RaTL.  There is a road that goes through (or cuts through) the middle of the complex that connects the back entrances.  GZ lived on the outer loop and I would guess seldom ever used TTL while driving.  GZ attempted to provide an address earlier to Sean but could only come up with "the best address I can give you".  This is a clear indication that GZ doesn't know the address of the location he's currently at and is providing the closest address to his location that he knows.  His later statements back up the notion that GZ could not remember the name of TTL.  GZ says he got out of his vehicle to look for a street sign.  I don't buy that this was his primary reason, but I do believe he would have been looking for a street sign while sitting in his SUV on the phone with SEAN and couldn't see one.  I think its not unlikely that he did look for a street sign for TTL while outside his vehicle.  He never saw one.  Sean then asks, what address are you parked in front of.  GZ didn't know what street his SUV was parked on, one of two pieces of information necessary for providing an address.  GZ responds, "I don't know [what address my SUV is parked in front of], its a cut through".  I think GZ used this verbiage for 2 reasons.  One, its an explanation for why he couldn't remember the street name because its not one he used.  I also think it was a physical description of the street he was on.  There were only 2 streets in the complex. One that circled the perimeter and one that went through the middle.  If you were to give someone who had no previous knowledge of RaTL a map of the area and asked them asked them which street was the cut through, which one are they going to choose?

To reciprocate the question, what good would it have been for GZ to tell Sean he was parked at a cut through if he was talking about one of the many sidewalk cut throughs in the complex?   IF I said I was  parked at the sidewalk area you are calling the NE cut through, how would you know whether I was on TTL or RVC?  I have a difficult time believing that the person who couldn't remember the name of the street would say he can't give the address his vehicle is parked in front of because it is parked in front of a sidewalk.  It seems much more likely to me he'd be focused on not being able to recall the name of the street and that would be the object of the conversation.  Am I 100% certain?  No, but I think its much more likely than the alternative.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 15, 2013, 05:11:43 PM
It is automatically set to time out after 60 minutes.  Change it to ALWAYS instead.

Now I remember. It's been so long since the forum was launched, I forgot we had to do that.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 16, 2013, 12:55:24 AM

I'm specifically referring to the parts of his story that he claims happened prior to the circling event (I believe the circling event happens from approx 0:55 to 1:30).

I agree that the circling was then if it happened at all.

Some problems.

0:41-55
Quote
Zimmerman: He's here now, and he's just staring -
Dispatcher: OK, just walking around the area?
Zimmerman: - looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: And now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK. [Unintelligible] said it's one one one one Retreat View, or one eleven? 
Zimmerman: That's the, that's the clubhouse. He's -
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: - at the clubhouse now.

0:54-59
Quote
Dispatcher: Do you know what the, he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah. Now he's coming towards me.

In the NEN call, Martin seems to be approaching from the direction of the clubhouse. I know we've been over this before. Some people don't hear Zimmerman saying that through the crosstalk. That's not a satisfactory solution for those of us who do hear it.

Another problem has gotten less attention. There's a period of more than 10 seconds in which Zimmerman seems to observe Martin loitering, and 'looking at all the houses.' This isn't mentioned in any of the SPD interviews. It seems to be directly contradicted, in statements that suggest, more or less strongly, that Martin was already approaching when Zimmerman became aware of him at this point.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

2/26-1, 11:06-34
Quote
Zimmerman:  The dispatcher, or whoever answered the phone, asked me where they went. And I said I wasn't sure because I lost visual of him when he went in between houses. And, he said "Well, can you tell me what direction he went?" And I said "Not really." And then all of a sudden, I see him, circling my car. And then he goes back into the darkness.

2/26 Written Statement, (http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/40ZK_written_statement_0226.pdf) pp. 1-2
Quote
I told the dispatcher what I had witnessed, the dispatcher took note of my location & the suspect fled to a darkened area of the sidewalk, as the dispatcher was asking me for an exact location the suspect emerged from the darkness & circled my vehicle.

2/26-2, 3:19-36
Quote
Singleton: We're just, we're gonna X this one out, because it's not where you meant. You meant that you came around here, and ended up here.

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: OK. OK. You ended up here. And then, is that when he circles your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: He comes out from where?

Zimmerman: I don't know.

Singleton: OK. All of a sudden you just notice he's circling your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Reenactment, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) 3:33-4:00
Quote
Zimmerman:  And I saw him walking back that way, and then cut through the back of the houses. He looked back, and he noticed me, and he cut back through the houses.

Zimmerman: And then he came back, and he started walking up towards the grass, and then came down and circled my car. And I told the operator that. He was circling my car. I didn't hear if he said anything-

Sgt. Smith: Right.

Zimmerman: -but he had his hand in his waistband.

CVSA, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI) 27:28-28:09 , 6:46:05-46
Quote
Zimmerman: When I was at the clubhouse, I gave them the clubhouse address. And, they're like, "We need to know what house you're in front of." And I said, "Listen, if you come to the clubhouse, go straight, and left, and you'll see me there." At this point the guy walked around my car. He had his hand in his waistband. I didn't hear if he said anything. My windows were up. It was raining. And I was on the phone with the non-emergency dispatcher. And, then he disappeared back through a cut-through, between the houses.

Zimmerman said Martin was looking at, or 'into', multiple houses when Zimmerman first saw him, in his first SPD interview (2/26-1, 4:08-4:47; 10:25-52), his written statement (p. 1), and his last SPD interview (2/29-3, 0:51-1:18). In the reenactment he only mentioned Taaffe's house at that point (0:00-1:35). In the CVSA it was a single, unidentified house, presumably Taaffe's (25:39-51).

In the reenactment, Zimmerman mentioned Martin 'looking around at the houses and stuff', when he passed Zimmerman at the clubhouse (2:15-32).

Never in the SPD interviews was Martin's house-looking behavior associated temporally with the moments preceding the approach and circling of the truck, or spatially with the cut-through area.
 
One more issue.

0:54-1:16
Quote
Dispatcher: Do you know what the- He's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah. Now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband.
Zimmerman: [Unintelligible] he's a black male.
Dispatcher: OK. How old would you say he looks [crosstalk]?
Zimmerman: He's got a button on his shirt. Late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens? OK.
Zimmerman: Mmhmm.

The 'black male' and 'button' comments suggest that Zimmerman was getting a close look at Martin for the first time. Listening to Zimmerman's voice on the recording, I feel it is very hard to believe this is not the case.

In the SPD interviews, Zimmerman claimed to have had at least one close look at Martin before he called the police.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 16, 2013, 01:58:01 PM
Some people don't hear Zimmerman saying that through the crosstalk. That's not a satisfactory solution for those of us who do hear it.

I just want to be clear that at least for me it isn't that I can't tell whether GZ says "He's at the clubhouse now" due to the crosstalk; it's that I don't believe that's what he says.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 16, 2013, 05:01:00 PM
I just want to be clear that at least for me it isn't that I can't tell whether GZ says "He's at the clubhouse now" due to the crosstalk; it's that I don't believe that's what he says.

A pure act of faith?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 16, 2013, 05:58:38 PM
A pure act of faith?

Not at all. I've listened to at least a hundred times, at both normal and slow speed. The sounds do not seem to me to be consistent with GZ saying "He's at the clubhouse now."
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 16, 2013, 06:13:32 PM
The sounds do not seem to me to be consistent with GZ saying "He's at the clubhouse now."

Not to be contentious, but for my curiosity, would you like to be more specific about the inconsistencies?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 16, 2013, 06:28:21 PM
I just want to be clear that at least for me it isn't that I can't tell whether GZ says "He's at the clubhouse now" due to the crosstalk; it's that I don't believe that's what he says.

I believe he says "He's at the clubhouse" and he starts to say "Now he's coming towards me", but he cuts himself off (because Sean is speaking over him) after "Now he's..." and repeats himself after Sean speaks again.

So it's:

GZ - "That's the clubhouse, he's at the clubhouse. Now he's..."
Noffke - "He's near the clubhouse now?"
GZ - "Yeah, now he's coming towards me"
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 16, 2013, 06:49:37 PM
Not to be contentious, but for my curiosity, would you like to be more specific about the inconsistencies?

I don't think you're being contentious. I believe the the first three words could easily be "He's at the." The next word sounds like it has two syllables, but the second syllable sounds too clipped to be "house," and the inflection doesn't seem right. The word sounds sort of like "corner" to me. The  vowel in the next accented word doesn't sound like the diphthong in "now." It may be an "a" like the "a" in "cat," but it's hard to tell with Sean talking over him. There may be an unaccented syllable before that word.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 16, 2013, 06:56:05 PM
I believe he says "He's at the clubhouse" and he starts to say "Now he's coming towards me", but he cuts himself off (because Sean is speaking over him) after "Now he's..." and repeats himself after Sean speaks again.

Nothing in the way he says the phrase gives me the impression he's not completing what he means to say
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 16, 2013, 07:15:34 PM
Nothing in the way he says the phrase gives me the impression he's not completing what he means to say

The end of that phrase has the same rhythm and tone/sound, rise/fall (not sure how to appropriately describe it) as the way he says "Yeah, now he's coming towards me" (the bolded part)

ETA:  Sounds a little different actually.  I feel pretty confident that that is what he's saying though (and I know by me saying that gives it a whoooooooole lot more credibility  :P)
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 17, 2013, 04:43:33 AM
I guess nobody believes Zimmerman's commentary on the NEN call during the third interview (https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1079) with Serino and Singleton.

It's not as if there aren't good reasons for doubting it. I think it makes a poor fit with Zimmerman's earlier SPD interviews. Zimmerman often expressed uncertainty during the NEN commentary, more frequently than in the earlier interviews. And there are the timeline issues.

Of the 'waistband' event, Zimmerman said 'I think I'm still at the clubhouse, yes' (2/29-3, 3:04-24). This was the first time in the NEN commentary that Zimmerman qualified a statement about his location.

Before 2/29, the hand in the waistband was invariably associated with Martin circling the truck, and it was never suggested that there were two such incidents. The circling was always on TTL if its location was specified. Zimmerman twice denied that the circling was at the clubhouse.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

Maps (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/sets/72157630981402972/detail/)

2/26-2, 1:33-48
Quote
Singleton: OK. You pass him, and this is where he's looking in the houses. OK. And then, where do you go, when you realize, you said he comes, and he circles your car?

Zimmerman: No, ma'am. I lost contact of him, as I was trying to get through, because you have to-

Singleton: So does he continue past you?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

2/26-2, 2:15-25
Quote
Singleton: OK. And, you said at some point he comes back and circles your car? Has he already done that?

Zimmerman: He looked into my vehicle, but he didn't circle it at that point in time.

2/26-2, 3:19-30
Quote
Singleton: We're just, we're gonna X this one out, because it's not where you meant. You meant that you came around here, and ended up here.

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: OK. OK. You ended up here. And then, is that when he circles your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Reenactment, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) 3:33-4:00
Quote
Zimmerman: And I saw him walking back that way, and then cut through the back of the houses. He looked back, and he noticed me, and he cut back through the houses. I was still on the phone with non- [recording seems to skip].

Sgt. Smith: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: And then he came back, and he started walking up towards the grass, and then came down and circled my car. And I told the operator that. He was circling my car. I didn't hear if he said anything-

Sgt. Smith: Right.

Zimmerman: -but he had his hand in his waistband.

CVSA, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJzKYeX0DLI) 26:56-27:49, 6:45:33-46:26
Quote
Zimmerman: The operator asked me if I could get to somewhere where I could see, or at least give them a direction of where he was headed. 

Erwin: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: And I said "Yes." So I pulled out, and I drove adjacent to the clubhouse. And, I was unfamiliar with the street name. The operator asked me what street I was on. And it's not the street that I live on. It's a side street that cuts through the neighborhood. And I told him I didn't know. And, they said, "We need to know - " When I was at the clubhouse, I gave them the clubhouse address. And, they're like, "We need to know what house you're in front of." And I said, "Listen, if you come to the clubhouse, go straight, and left, and you'll see me there." At this point the guy walked around my car. He had his hand in his waistband.

There is no circling of the truck in the NEN commentary, nor in the earlier parts of the 2/29 interview.

2/29-1, 21:31-51
Quote
Serino: What do you think his mindset was? I'm telling you right now, the kid has no violent background, no violent tendencies that we can find. What made him snap? He's not on drugs. Can you fill in that blank?

Zimmerman: The other thing was, when he walked up to my car, he reached in his waistband, and held his hand there.

On 2/29 it was walking up to, no longer walking around. The investigators didn't ask what happened to the circling. Singleton echoed Zimmerman's language.

2/29-1, 22:32-41
Quote
Singleton: I'm not, I still don't understand. When he walked up to your car, why didn't you say anything to him?

Zimmerman: I guess fear. I didn't want to confront him.

In the NEN commentary, Serino asked Zimmerman what was happening as he gave the dispatcher directions.

2/29-3, 4:46-5:08 
Quote
Call:
Quote
Zimmerman: Yeah. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left.

Serino: What's happening now? Are you guys walking now? Is he walking?

Zimmerman: No, that's, I was parked where I could see him now.

Singleton: So you're definitely not in front of the clubhouse anymore, at this point.

Zimmerman: No. Hmm-mm. No.

Serino: So you're ahead of him?

Zimmerman: No, I was behind him.

Has Martin circled the truck already? Or is he about to reach the 'darkened area of the sidewalk', (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7879890510/in/set-72157631083078146) then quickly turn on his heel to approach and circle the truck?

The darkened area is, I estimate, about 140 to 150 feet from Zimmerman's truck.

A Honda Ridgeline (http://automobiles.honda.com/ridgeline/specifications.aspx?group=dimensions) is about 17 feet long, and about 6 feet wide. Walking around it from the front would be a minimum distance of about 40 feet.

Martin has about 15 seconds before he starts running. He will need to walk at about 12 feet per second to approach and circle the truck in that time. Then he will need to run at close to 30 feet per second, the speed of an Olympic sprinter, to reach and turn the corner so that Zimmerman, having presumably turned on his high-beam headlights, can observe Martin running 'Down toward the other entrance to the neighborhood'.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: spectator on April 17, 2013, 07:26:36 AM
I just listened to that 1 second of tape , and i definitely don't hear GZ saying clubhouse.

It sort of sounds like "i forgot/forget the way i say/said it" or  maybe " that's the way i said/say it",  but it's very hard to make out.

One thing for sure, i only hear Sean's "clubhouse", which overlaps/collides with the first part of GZ's mystery response, and the latter part  is overlapped with Sean's explosive "do you know what the" 

There's no clubhouse from GZ, IMO. 

You have to ask yourself, did GZ recognize his error when Sean pointed it out(1eleven), and then responded to that very clear question, or did he say something(he's at the clubhouse) that conflicts with the timeline and with what he explained the following day ?.


It's even harder to understand what's being said if you keep repeating anymore than that 1 second of tape. so one can always get used to holding down the rewind button(don't click) at axiom to keep repeating that 1 second portion, if you don't have the time or software/program.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 17, 2013, 11:26:26 AM
It's even harder to understand what's being said if you keep repeating anymore than that 1 second of tape. so one can always get used to holding down the rewind button(don't click) at axiom to keep repeating that 1 second portion, if you don't have the time or software/program.

I'll once again recommend the free program Audacity. It allows the same segment to be endlessly repeated, and can also slow it down without altering the pitch.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: DebFrmHell on April 17, 2013, 12:06:55 PM
I just listened to that 1 second of tape , and i definitely don't hear GZ saying clubhouse.

It sort of sounds like "i forgot/forget the way i say/said it" or  maybe " that's the way i said/say it",  but it's very hard to make out.

One thing for sure, i only hear Sean's "clubhouse", which overlaps/collides with the first part of GZ's mystery response, and the latter part  is overlapped with Sean's explosive "do you know what the" 

There's no clubhouse from GZ, IMO. 

You have to ask yourself, did GZ recognize his error when Sean pointed it out(1eleven), and then responded to that very clear question, or did he say something(he's at the clubhouse) that conflicts with the timeline and with what he explained the following day ?.


It's even harder to understand what's being said if you keep repeating anymore than that 1 second of tape. so one can always get used to holding down the rewind button(don't click) at axiom to keep repeating that 1 second portion, if you don't have the time or software/program.

LeeM is a friend of Jeralyn's and he is an audio expert.  This is his transcript, published by permission, from the NEN call.

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 17, 2013, 01:40:45 PM
LeeM is a friend of Jeralyn's and he is an audio expert.  This is his transcript, published by permission, from the NEN call.

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf

I don't trust his interpretation of what GZ said any more than I trust anyone else's. For instance, I still believe GZ says "that's my truck" not "they'll see my truck." In Audacity, the waveform of what's either "that's" or "they''ll see,"  is a single "blip," not two, as I'd expect for two words. I recorded myself saying both phrases, and no matter how hard I tried to slur together "they'll see," it still showed up as two blips.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 17, 2013, 05:37:40 PM
I don't trust his interpretation of what GZ said any more than I trust anyone else's.

I disagree with many things in that transcript as well.

For instance, I still believe GZ says "that's my truck" not "they'll see my truck."

Are you using the 7.65 MB WAV file as your source?  When you believe you hear "that's my truck", is that during crosstalk, or no?  The part you're referring to, I believe I hear GZ say "You'll see my truck", and then as Sean is talking over him, GZ continues with "You'll see my by my truck".
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 17, 2013, 06:35:17 PM
I disagree with many things in that transcript as well.

Are you using the 7.65 MB WAV file as your source?  When you believe you hear "that's my truck", is that during crosstalk, or no?  The part you're referring to, I believe I hear GZ say "You'll see my truck", and then as Sean is talking over him, GZ continues with "You'll see my by my truck".

That's is the file I'm using, along with a mono version. The section I'm referring to is from about 3:17 to about 3:18 and is not covered up with crosstalk. I can't tell what GZ says during the following crosstalk, though I'm pretty sure he doesn't say "The keys are in the ignition" as some claim.

I hope it's okay with TalkLeft to insert an image.

The following image (assuming it works) shows the waveform, pitch, and spectrum for that phrase. It looks to me like there's one, not two, syllables in the disputed section.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8095/8508476222_16b1f4f126_z.jpg)

The image (http://www.flickr.com/photos/_mjw_/8508476222/in/photostream) is from my Flickr page.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 17, 2013, 09:47:24 PM
That's is the file I'm using, along with a mono version.

I'm trying to determine if the file/source you're using is the same as the one I'm using.  The file I'm using is 8,032,066 bytes, and it's a .WAV extension file.  If you're using a .WAV file, and it's the exact same size, then it's almost certainly the same file I'm using.  It's important to make sure we're analyzing/listening to the same source.  The full file name for my source is "ZIMMERMAN-911-0316.wav"

The section I'm referring to is from about 3:17 to about 3:18 and is not covered up with crosstalk. I can't tell what GZ says during the following crosstalk, though I'm pretty sure he doesn't say "The keys are in the ignition" as some claim.

I hope it's okay with TalkLeft to insert an image.

The following image (assuming it works) shows the waveform, pitch, and spectrum for that phrase. It looks to me like there's one, not two, syllables in the disputed section.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8095/8508476222_16b1f4f126_z.jpg

The image (http://www.flickr.com/photos/_mjw_/8508476222/in/photostream) is from my Flickr page.

Honestly, just use your ears.  I think you're overcomplicating this process.  Listen to it, and it's pretty obvious that he's saying "You'll see my truck".  That's why it's important that we're using the same source, so we know we're listening to the same thing (not factoring in the speakers/headphones we're using to listen).

Also, I can't imagine how anybody got "The keys are in the ignition" from the crosstalk section there.  It doesn't sound even remotely like that.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 17, 2013, 10:18:39 PM
I'll once again recommend the free program Audacity.

I know of no evidence that this program is any good. All that I've heard about it suggests that it isn't.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 17, 2013, 10:49:32 PM
Honestly, just use your ears.  I think you're overcomplicating this process.  Listen to it, and it's pretty obvious that he's saying "You'll see my truck".  That's why it's important that we're using the same source, so we know we're listening to the same thing (not factoring in the speakers/headphones we're using to listen).

Also, I can't imagine how anybody got "The keys are in the ignition" from the crosstalk section there.  It doesn't sound even remotely like that.

I did honestly just use my ears, and what I heard was "That's my truck." You honestly used your ears and heard "You'll see my truck." When LeeM honestly used his ears he heard "They'll see my truck." I believe the Audacity waveforms support my ears' version. Audacity is free and easily obtained. You can try for yourself saying "You'll see my truck" in a manner that approximates GZ's rhythm and inflection, and see whether it produces an identifiable blip for both "you'll" and "see." I tried many times and couldn't produce a waveform similar to the one I showed. When I tried "That's my truck," it was similar. 

I agree the next utterance sounds nothing like "The keys are in the ignition," but I don't doubt that's what someone honestly heard.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 17, 2013, 10:55:30 PM
I know of no evidence that this program is any good. All that I've heard about it suggests that it isn't.

Perhaps you can elaborate on what you've heard. I've used it for many purposes, and find it very useful.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 17, 2013, 11:16:10 PM
I'm trying to determine if the file/source you're using is the same as the one I'm using.  The file I'm using is 8,032,066 bytes, and it's a .WAV extension file.

Yes, same file type, same size.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 18, 2013, 12:07:16 AM
Perhaps you can elaborate on what you've heard.

I should have been clearer. I haven't heard anything except what has been said on the forum.

My point is just that I don't have any reason to believe the software is better at identifying sounds than my own ears.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 18, 2013, 12:38:16 AM
I should have been clearer. I haven't heard anything except what has been said on the forum.

My point is just that I don't have any reason to believe the software is better at identifying sounds than my own ears.

I recently mentioned Audacity for two reasons. The first in response to:
Quote
It's even harder to understand what's being said if you keep repeating anymore than that 1 second of tape. so one can always get used to holding down the rewind button(don't click) at axiom to keep repeating that 1 second portion, if you don't have the time or software/program.

I'm sure you'll admit playing a selection in a loop in Audacity is preferable. I assume you'll also admit there's an advantage to being able to slow down the audio without changing the pitch.

The second was to show the waveform of the phrase "? my truck." The program isn't trying to identify sounds; it's showing what the sounds look like. If you read the WAV file into Audacity, you'll see it looks the same, and you can verify that I've correctly labeled each component. If you're experimentally inclined, you can try recording various phrasings of "That's my truck," "You'll see my truck," and "They'll see my truck," to see if any of the versions with two syllables for the disputed section only have a single "blip," or whether, as I've found, both syllables can be clearly seen in the waveform.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 18, 2013, 01:11:18 AM
The program isn't trying to identify sounds; it's showing what the sounds look like.

Yes, strictly speaking, the program itself doesn't identify sounds. It's a tool that is used for that purpose. I was speaking loosely, but the distinction doesn't affect my point.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 18, 2013, 01:30:45 AM
Yes, strictly speaking, the program itself doesn't identify sounds. It's a tool that is used for that purpose. I was speaking loosely, but the distinction doesn't affect my point.

If your point is seeing a visual representation of the sound isn't an aid in determining what was said, I think it's an extremely weak point. Both you and Departure claim that the best approach is to just listen. But just listening has led me to believe GZ says one thing and you to believe he says something else.  That's as far as listening can take us, because your confidence that your version is correct does nothing to change my mind, and vice versa.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 18, 2013, 01:42:16 AM
I'll add that in this instance, I don't think it makes any difference whether GZ said "That's my truck," "You'll see my truck," or "They'll see my truck." They all mean the same thing.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 18, 2013, 02:01:10 AM
If your point is seeing a visual representation of the sound isn't an aid in determining what was said

That isn't my point.

ETA:

Quote
Both you and Departure claim that the best approach is to just listen.

I don't recall saying that.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 18, 2013, 02:09:28 AM
That isn't my point.

Combining:
 
My point is just that I don't have any reason to believe the software is better at identifying sounds than my own ears.

with
Yes, strictly speaking, the program itself doesn't identify sounds. It's a tool that is used for that purpose. I was speaking loosely, but the distinction doesn't affect my point.

lead me to believe that was your point. If not, what is your point?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 18, 2013, 02:23:08 AM
I don't recall saying that.

What you don't recall saying is that the "best approach [to determining what GZ said] is to just listen." You said, "I don't have any reason to believe the software is better at identifying sounds than my own ears." I think my paraphrase was pretty accurate. It certainly summarized what I thought (and think) you meant.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 18, 2013, 02:55:34 AM
If not, what is your point?

I don't know if I can say it any more clearly than I have. I'm content to leave this part of the discussion where it is.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 18, 2013, 07:34:32 PM
My point is just that I don't have any reason to believe the software is better at identifying sounds than my own ears.

I don't feel the software is necessarily better at identifying speech than my own ears.

Also, to MJW.  The audio file of GZ's NEN call is being fed through a cell phone, to the dispatcher's location, undergoing who knows what kind of compression or other modifications before it became the WAV file we have access to.  When you are saying things yourself, I imagine you are not duplicating the recording process that GZ's voice was subjected to that night.  You're using a desktop microphone wired directly into your computer most likely, no?  Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 18, 2013, 08:35:55 PM
I don't feel the software is necessarily better at identifying speech than my own ears.

Also, to MJW.  The audio file of GZ's NEN call is being fed through a cell phone, to the dispatcher's location, undergoing who knows what kind of compression or other modifications before it became the WAV file we have access to.  When you are saying things yourself, I imagine you are not duplicating the recording process that GZ's voice was subjected to that night.  You're using a desktop microphone wired directly into your computer most likely, no?  Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

All true, but that doesn't covert two syllables into one.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 18, 2013, 09:20:55 PM
To see what two one-syllable words, the second with a long "e," look like, consider:

it's raining, and he's just... At about 22:15
staring at me.  At about 48:00
to check me out. At about 1:22:55
them call me? At about 3:49:40

The long "e" is always clearly visible. Long "e" is a "tense" vowel. Tense vowels are longer in duration and more powerful acoustically that other ("lax")  vowels.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 19, 2013, 02:42:54 AM
All true, but that doesn't covert two syllables into one.

Can I just confirm that the selection we're talking about is this one here?

http://www.filethief.com/download/1975/gz_truck_clip.wav.html
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: MJW on April 19, 2013, 12:36:02 PM
Can I just confirm that the selection we're talking about is this one here?

http://www.filethief.com/download/1975/gz_truck_clip.wav.html

That's it.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 19, 2013, 09:15:55 PM
Another problem has gotten less attention. There's a period of more than 10 seconds in which Zimmerman seems to observe Martin loitering, and 'looking at all the houses.' This isn't mentioned in any of the SPD interviews. It seems to be directly contradicted, in statements that suggest, more or less strongly, that Martin was already approaching when Zimmerman became aware of him at this point.

From the reenactment, when they're still in the car, approaching the location where GZ parked his vehicle on TTL, right when the wind kicks up and drowns out most of what GZ is saying, it sounds like he says "And I saw him st....".  I hear a strong "st" sound, like he's either saying "standing" or "staring", though I lean towards "standing".  I believe this may have been GZ describing something similar to the 10 seconds you are referring to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_2NeMrGCvg&t=5m47s

One more issue.

0:54-1:16
The 'black male' and 'button' comments suggest that Zimmerman was getting a close look at Martin for the first time. Listening to Zimmerman's voice on the recording, I feel it is very hard to believe this is not the case.

In the SPD interviews, Zimmerman claimed to have had at least one close look at Martin before he called the police.

I also agree that GZ is getting a particularly clear view of TM at this point in time, and noticing things he hadn't noticed earlier, or wasn't certain of, anyway.  I think this is consistent with GZ parked on TTL, facing east, with TM approaching him head-on, likely being illuminated by GZ's headlights (approaching his SUV, leading up to the circling).  I'm not sure what portion of the SPD interviews you're referring to where he claims he had "at least one close look at Martin before he called the police."

What are you drawing from this "one more issue"?
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 19, 2013, 09:55:33 PM
I believe this may have been GZ describing something similar to the 10 seconds you are referring to.

On the recording, it is immediately after this period that Martin begins approaching.

In the reenactment, Martin walks away from Zimmerman, turns and walks out of sight between buildings, then re-appears before approaching and circling the truck. None of this action is mentioned in the recording, and on the theory you suggest there isn't time for it.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 21, 2013, 12:05:53 AM
I'm not sure what portion of the SPD interviews you're referring to where he claims he had "at least one close look at Martin before he called the police."

Zimmerman said he passed Martin in front of Taaffe's house.

Audio (http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right)

2/26-1, 4:17-26
Quote
Zimmerman: It was raining out, and he was leisurely walking, taking his time, looking at all the houses.

Singleton: OK.

Zimmerman: When I drove by he stopped and looked at me.

2/26-2, 0:27-35
Quote
Singleton: OK. Can you put an "X" on here, where you first saw the guy?

Zimmerman: Right, right about here.

Map (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8195730354/in/photostream)

2/26-2, 1:05-1:13
Quote
Singleton: When do you start calling the police? Where are you?

Zimmerman: I pulled in front of the clubhouse.

Singleton: OK. Did you pass him?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: OK. So he was here, and you passed him and went over here?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Reenactment, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4) 0:10-15
Quote
Zimmerman: He was walking like in the grassy area, like, up towards, kinda between these two poles.

Reenactment, 0:51-1:08
Quote
Zimmerman: I kept driving. I passed him and he was, he kept staring at me, and staring ar-, looking around, to see who else was, I don't know why he was looking, but -

Smith: Did he walk off from there, or did he stop there last night?

Zimmerman: He stopped, and he's, he, he like, looked around.

Reenactment, 1:24-35
Quote
Smith: Where did he, where was he standing at when you, when he stopped? 

Zimmerman: Right there. Right in front of 1460.

Smith: By the sidewalk, or in the grassy area?

Zimmerman: No, in the grassy area.

Smith: Right in the grassy area?

Zimmerman: Yes.

Smith: OK. That's about right in front of where the car is.

Zimmerman: Yes, sir.

2/29-1, 8:19-29
Quote
Zimmerman: He stopped in front of the house. And then, I drove, there was a car, like, backing up, so I, I slowed down. And then I drove around him. And he kept looking at me.

Departure:
Quote
What are you drawing from this "one more issue"?

I am not convinced that the NEN call and Zimmerman's story can be combined in any way that makes sense.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 21, 2013, 08:03:39 AM
Zimmerman said he passed Martin in front of Taaffe's house.

Thanks for the detailed reply.  I don't see where GZ said he had "at least one close look at Martin before he called the police", however; especially the underlined part.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 21, 2013, 08:19:34 AM
I don't see where GZ said he had "at least one close look at Martin before he called the police"

If you watch the reenactment, or examine the map that Zimmerman marked, I think it is clear that he was claiming to have had a close look. I did not say or imply that 'close look' was a verbatim quote.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: leftwig on April 22, 2013, 07:03:03 AM
As we've seen in several instances, "close" is relative (and no cigar).  I'd guess by the verbiage used in the NEN, GZ goes from thinking TM looks black to confirming without question that he is black.  The first look may have been close.  The later look was probably closer and/or with better lighting.  I am not aware of how great the lighting is on RVC or TTL in the locations GZ observed TM, but it would seem to make sense that a look that allows him to confirm the race and relative age of the person wearing a hoodie would more likely occur with that person walking towards him than from following him (GZ's headlights would have also aided if viewing TM in this manner).  If the only time I had ever seen TM was the 7-11 video (grainy video, decent lighting), there is no way I could tell you his age within 20 years.
Title: Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
Post by: Departure on April 27, 2013, 09:15:40 PM
Not sure if this has been shared yet.  NPR interview with RZ Jr.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK_MFDmasQ4

At approximately 6:00 in, RZ Jr. mentions how GZ had been waiting for a person to take his call.  Sounds like he's implying GZ was on hold (without actually using the term "hold").  He also doesn't mention how long he was on hold, or "waiting", but it seems he's at least trying to imply the duration was significant.

Good interview overall too.