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State v. George Zimmerman (Pre-Trial) => Evidence Discussion => Topic started by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:29:04 AM

Title: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:29:04 AM
I am trying to do a copy paste from the Dee Dee (W8) thread so if I screw it up...there is always the edit tool.  LOL.

(Title of thread edited by TalkLeft at request of Deb .)
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:31:53 AM

Quote
Diwata, do you have a time stamp video for the clubhouse videos?  The East Pool cam is the one I am interested in.  I am interested in the rain patterns.  TIA

From Diwata Man:
Quote
Well, sort of. It's kind of a long story, sorry.

It's been quite a long time since I looked at the actual timestamped video. The reason why is because the only way to view the actual timestamp is through the download from the State website;

https://sao4th.egnyte.com/

I have forgotten how now but from there you have to correctly download the file(s) to view the clubhouse tapes with the timestamp on it. You have to use the proprietary CCTV software they provide called NetVu ObserVer.

I no longer have access to that website but I have the software downloaded but something must have happened since, maybe because I moved files around or something, because I can't find the proper videos to load into it. You can't load the the avi files, rather the other video files that are of the correct format for the software.

The only other options are to look online for a copy someone may have uploaded or perhaps download the avi version which I uploaded here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb74bZhXDkI

and add a time stamp to it. I can do that part but it will take me some time to get to it.

From what I recall and what I have noted is the video timestamp begins at 6:30pm and ends at 7:15pm. Applying the eighteen minute discrepancy, the true time of the timestamp then would be 6:48pm to 7:33pm.

The clubhouse video records continuously unlike the 711 or bank videos which are motion activated. The frame rate from what I recall and have noted of the clubhouse video is one shot every 1.5 seconds.
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:34:47 AM
From DFH:
Quote
Are you sure that there is really an 18 min discrepancy?  I have been watching the video and off and on you can see cars driving down TTL.  Since officers were starting to arrive at The Retreat after 7:17 you would think that some of those patrol cars would end up on TTL also instead of all of them turning onto RVC.  But maybe not.  I just don't see anything in the was of flashing emergency lights.

From Diwata Man:
Quote
Page 87 of the 284pdf
"the video recording system was 18 minutes slow at the time of the shooting incident"
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:36:34 AM

Quote from: DiwataMan on January 27, 2013, 11:52:48 AM

@0:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFOrPYD0Q0

Too bad they couldn't just pan to the right a bit ay? We might have seen George's truck.


Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:37:56 AM
From Diwata Man:
Quote
That would take me a while to explain but I'm glad we looked back at that video because I believe we can actually see George's truck. So I made this video real quick. Of course I can't say it is because the quality is so bad but I think it's likely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hzd3cquaZs
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:40:09 AM
From NoMatter:
Quote
Quote from: DiwataMan on January 26, 2013, 09:15:42 PM

It's somewhat difficult to ascertain but from the bank video marked "S Delivery Dr." it is clearly obvious that by 6:34 the ground is saturated and it is raining lightly.



Quote
I think that's "5 Delivery Dr."

How can you tell that rain is falling? Those videos are too grainy for me to read a license plate. I'm skeptical of anyone claiming to discern raindrops.

The Delivery Dr. camera makes an abrupt jump, from dry pavement at 1:14:23 to wet at 6:34:59.

Just before 5:00 there is a vehicle at the ATM, operating windshield wipers on an intermittent setting.

At 5:40 there is a vehicle at the ATM with inactive windshield wipers.

At 6:36 Mark Osterman or his look-alike is at the ATM, with windshield wipers going steadily.

I've assumed that Delivery Dr. could have been wet from the earlier rain, making 6:36 the first time we can be sure of rain after 5 PM.
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:41:11 AM
From Diwata Man:
Quote
You have to put the video in an editor so you can scroll back and forth through it to get a better idea of what's going on. Below is an example I quickly put together for you. You can see the puddle form and dissipate a bit in the bank and clubhouse video. You can see drops hitting the puddles. And you can see rain passing by the lens more clearly in the clubhouse video. If we ever get more video perhaps we can be more certain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ErdtQD6bFI
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:43:47 AM
From Diwata Man:
Quote
Here's one I have that's been sped up 4x.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcUO0t0TZfE

RE: East Pool Video
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:46:40 AM
Quote
from: DebFrmHell on Today at 12:05:17 AM

That is so much better!!!!  Thank you a thousand times over.  I am all kinds of fascinated by the things you can do.  For a conservative, you are the tops!  8-)  You, Obi-Wan and Chip.

Okay.  You can see cars going south on TTL.  There are a couple of them around the 7:07 mark.  As they go around the last bend near W11/20's TH you can see them pass if you are looking at the street lamp. (middle light)  There is a definite void as they pass behind it.

At 7:11:29 a vehicle goes down TTL but you don't see him pass behind the street lamp.  Could that be Zimmerman?

Seriously.  This needs it's own thread.  Perhaps in the evidence thread?



From Diwata Man:
YW. I would think it would need it's own thread considering it's not DeeDee rather CCTV evidence we are talking about. This particular clubhouse shot, among all the other videos of the clubhouse, has always been a topic of discussion around the nets. But let me say this while we are here.

nomatter_nevermind recently posted a link to a long 45 minute video in where they discuss this and other clubhouse video.
http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2161.msg105716.html#msg105716

In the video they believe that is George's truck. I once believed it to be as well for just the reason you mention "At 7:11:29 a vehicle goes down TTL but you don't see him pass behind the street lamp"

They also mention other video where one can see a vehicle pass the front of the clubhouse and it does look like a truck and the timing is very close.

The biggest problem in all of this will always be that we can't say definitively that is George's truck, the quality of the video is just too bad. Also I think it may be possible for a vehicle to pass the front of the clubhouse and even park without being seen on the camera. I also think it may be possible for a car to travel South then East down Twin Trees and not be seen if it stays on the North side of the street because of the blown out area. Of course I can't say with certainty without actually going there and conducting some tests.

In the end I think that no matter what one side or the other brings up regarding the video the other side can say the same to the other. The quality is just to bad to discern much of anything. Also, just how accurate was the time accounted for? Did the investigator merely look at his watch? Was it checked against NIST? If that's what they used? You get the idea. ;)
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 09:55:57 AM
From NoMatter's Link:
HUGE Credit Whonoze @BBCList since I believe that he is the person that compiled this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pw4utMiNido

I do think this is interesting though I have only gone thru a third of it.  It gives a very good representation of what the cameras are seeing.  I like that it has all four cameras and is set to time.  I plan to finish it up today.

This is what NoMatter has to say about the video...

Quote

I think there is a good mix of factual presentation and commentary. Much of the factual material will be familiar. I learned a lot about the clubhouse videos, which is an area I've neglected.

There is some music, but I didn't pay much attention to it.

The level of factual accuracy is pretty high, especially in comparison to most of what has been said and written about the case.

I think they have Zimmerman's residence in the wrong building, but I could be the one mistaken. I'm just relying on Google Earth. Only off by one, so an inconsequential error if it is one.

They attribute to Zimmerman the claim that Martin entered by 1460/1510, which is one of my pet peeves.

In a segment labeled speculative, the video has the confrontation begin where the body was found. All the evidence that it happened near the T is ignored, not addressed.

I'm sure there are other errors, but those are the ones I noticed and recall. There's also a fair amount of opinions stated as facts. Probably the worst fault of the video is treating Dee Dee's assertions as if they were uncontested facts.

I don't know what to make of the conclusions drawn from the clubhouse videos. I'm very interested in hearing from people who are knowledgeable about video.
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DiwataMan on January 29, 2013, 09:56:39 AM
Ah, very good. I think perhaps the title of the thread should indicate that it's the Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse video and possibly an indication of which camera.
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 29, 2013, 10:01:30 AM
Ah, very good. I think perhaps the title of the thread should indicate that it's the Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse video and possibly an indication of which camera.

I will send a PM to Jeralyn and see if she can edit it.  Got a good suggestion for a title so I don't come off as a dope?   :D
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: DiwataMan on January 29, 2013, 10:38:13 AM
I will send a PM to Jeralyn and see if she can edit it.  Got a good suggestion for a title so I don't come off as a dope?   :D

I would think The Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse videos would be good enough or some variation thereof to help differentiate it from the other videos, i.e. Bank Videos, Lake's Edge Apartment videos, etc.

edit: unless you want the thread to be about all the videos regarding the case, though I think that might get cluttered.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 30, 2013, 06:31:49 AM
The vehicle that I see on the East Pool cam at 7:11:29 is showing at 7:09:40.

From Lee M's transcript:
http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf
Quote
1:34:25- Okay [turns in seat]. These assholes, they always get away. Yep [power window switch or gear
shift and four footsteps/fade].
1:45:65 - When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you'd – would
go past the clubhouse— [he's trying to explain his location on Twin Trees, southeast of the clubhouse,
not at the clubhouse itself].
1:54:26 - Okay, it's on the left-hand side from the clubhouse?
1:57:62 - No, you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left. Uh, yeah, you go straight
in, don't turn and make a left – [2:06:89] sh*t, he's running. [in real time this is at 7:11:41 PM].
2:08:82 - He's running? Which way is he running? [truck door opens, door open chime/alarm]
2:10:24 - Uh [grunts while exiting truck] down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood [door
closes].

In the NEN, Zimmerman is sounding preoccupied and I believe that is because he is driving at the time.  I also believe that is the Ridgeline going around that corner going east but doesn't appear to make the bend to turn south on TTL. 

This is why I think the time that DiwataMan's time is correct.

I do like that video because of the split screens but I had to mute it.  I thought it was kind of silly that they have him making two 3-point turns.

((I apparently need to go to school to translate a minute.  If it isn't happening at the :50 mark where I know they are talking about 30 seconds, it just isn't' happening for me.  I am a dolt.))
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on January 30, 2013, 10:08:46 AM
I am posting this dialogue from youtube here in the hope that DiwataMan will comment on whether Teeslaw's deductions about the movements of Zimmerman's car can be justiied.
Quote

rickyjim2001 1 hour ago

What was the shutter speed of the clubhouse cameras and how were they synched with each other? I am not sure one can base conclusions on where Zimmerman's car was based on 1 frame per second video without knowing the answers to those questions. I also doubt that Zimmerman, from the driver's side of his vehicle traveling east on RVC, would have noticed Martin in the mail kiosk and decided he was worthy of investigation. Zimmerman's story about Taafe's house is more believable than yours. .
·
Teeslaw

Teeslaw 28 minutes ago

The security videos were taken from the discovery files posted by DiwattaMan. They were supposed to be in sync; we checked and determined that they were based on how vehicles move from one camera to another.

FWIW, most of out group agrees that GZ could not have seen TM under the kiosk from RVC. The speculation is that someone had told him a suspicious person was there, and he was looking for them. There is enough light under the awning for GZ to see there from the intersection, on the 2nd pass.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on January 30, 2013, 10:27:30 AM
I am posting this dialogue from youtube here in the hope that DiwataMan will comment on whether Teeslaw's deductions about the movements of Zimmerman's car can be justiied.

I'm not exactly sure what you would like me to comment on. That may be George's truck passing the front of the clubhouse then later going down Twin Trees but it certainly is not definitive. I actually don't mind a lot of speculation and hypothesizing as long as one keeps in mind that's all it is.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on January 30, 2013, 10:36:31 AM
Teeslaw claims that based on the kitchen and game room videos, he has the goods that the Ridgeline never parked in front of the clubhouse as shown in the reenactment video.  Do you understand and/or agree with him? 
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on January 30, 2013, 10:45:48 AM
Teeslaw claims that based on the kitchen and game room videos, he has the goods that the Ridgeline never parked in front of the clubhouse as shown in the reenactment video.  Do you understand and/or agree with him?

I understood it sure. And no, I don't agree one can definitively say that George did not park in front of the clubhouse.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 30, 2013, 12:45:52 PM
I am posting this dialogue from youtube here in the hope that DiwataMan will comment on whether Teeslaw's deductions about the movements of Zimmerman's car can be justiied.

The one glaring thing on that video is that they have Martin at the mail kiosk, Zimmerman driving forward at the stop sign to make a Uturn on RVC and reappoaching that intersection before turning left/south on TTL.  They have 45 minutes of the hall cam showing maybe a third to a half of the mail area but no glimpse of Martin at any time. Their opinion is that he never moved to an area where he could be seen but no one wants to account for the fact that he may not have been there at all and that is why he is not seen. Paraphrasing their wording "unfortunately, he never moved into camera range."  They are speculating things to fit their narrative rather than the other way around.

Have you ever watched someone talk on a cell phone and not pace about in the space they have to move around?

Still am only about 2/3rds through it.

I appreciate that they take the time to do these things.  They are biased in their commentaries so that is why I choose to mute.  I am old enough to form my own opinions.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: TalkLeft on January 31, 2013, 03:06:10 AM
Again you are bringing Anti-Zimmerman biased posters comments here and asking to refute them. We're not interested in doing that.

Bring a journalistic, unbiased account here, fine. But I'm not going to credit biased reports and ask people to respond. You can do that at their sites.

Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 31, 2013, 08:16:01 AM
Again you are bringing Anti-Zimmerman biased posters comments here and asking to refute them. We're not interested in doing that.

Bring a journalistic, unbiased account here, fine. But I'm not going to credit biased reports and ask people to respond. You can do that at their sites.
I'm sorry.  I didn't think I was doing that.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on January 31, 2013, 08:33:39 AM
Jeralyn was bawling me out, Deb.  Maybe there was a better way we could have discussed whether or not the clubhouse videos tell us anything about what Zimmerman did there without referring to tslaw's youtube one.  It wouldn't have been as easy, however.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on January 31, 2013, 08:57:32 AM
Jeralyn was bawling me out, Deb.  Maybe there was a better way we could have discussed whether or not the clubhouse videos tell us anything about what Zimmerman did there without referring to tslaw's youtube one.  It wouldn't have been as easy, however.

It should be easy to discuss it though. I've been looking back at the tapes again and something is happening with that truck that becomes difficult to explain without visual aid. But looking at the other cars travel East in front of the clubhouse the headlights don't shine through the windows as that one does. The headlights from that truck also appear to move away from the clubhouse giving the impression that it is moving away from it almost as if pulling out instead of merely moving consistently down the street. But I can not say with certainty that is what's happening.

If we are to say this is George's truck, it in one sense appears consistent with his story in that he at least stopped somewhere near the clubhouse for the call and later went forward down Twin Trees but I again wonder if it's possible for a vehicle to travel down Twin Trees, if it stays on the North side of the street, and not be seen because of the light blowing out that area.

So it still remains and will always remain with just too much uncertainty because of the bad quality, slow frame rate, not enough seen and possible timing problems of the video.

Also, I know nothing of the legal world but I can't imagine the defense or the state bringing this tape up in court or if they do I doubt either side would try to affirm anything and if they do it'll easily be challenged, and rightly so, by the other side.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on January 31, 2013, 10:36:35 AM
I was more interested in the rain patterns and how they coincide with the phone calls received/made by Martin and W8.  At around 6:40 is was raining steadily, even up to hard.  In that 10 min time frame, with Martin leaving the 7-Eleven at 6:30 he could have gotten into the Lake's Edge or the Colonial.  I really believe that he went into Lake's Edge.  The rain seems steady up until about 6:55-58.  That would get him time to travel to TRATL and through the shortcut. 

There is a part where Zimmerman says something about not getting connected to the NEN immediately so there is a few seconds of hang time before the start of that call.  I thought originally that there was no way that would happen until I had to call the Bike Patrol, which is a NEN, from work.  I had to hold for a few seconds before I was connected.  Here at home I fall under county services, not city, so I get shuffled around in the NEN.  I had to call 911 one time and that was not transferred.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 05:47:38 AM
I again wonder if it's possible for a vehicle to travel down Twin Trees, if it stays on the North side of the street, and not be seen because of the light blowing out that area.

"Teeslaw" here.

There is no way for a vehicle to make the turn at the first bend without appearing to pass through the middle light blob. But once it gets onto the West-East leg a ways, the bloom from the light on the Pool wall would obscure it. For example, if the vehicle that parks facing the mailboxes had backed up toward the cut-through sidewalk without turning its lights on, that would not have been visible.

I conclude GZ turned his truck around because I believe he left it where and how he told the police he did. I conclude he turned around in the manner i illustrated because a) that's the easiest way to turn around a vehicle on a narrow street, b) a forward U-turn would have created a more distinct light event, c) there is a subtle change in the light patterns at that point that would correspond to the tail markers or reverse lights of a vehicle moving toward the South side of the street.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 01, 2013, 06:34:38 AM
Teeslaw, I find your claims about Zimmerman's movements just as unintelligible here as I did on youtube.  Perhaps a large collection of diagrams with explaining text is a better method of explanation than a long video, filled with obviously unjustified a priori assumptions, or text alone.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 06:48:30 AM
Sorry RickyJim. I did the best I could. Diagrams and text wouldn't maintain coherence in time, which i think is crucial.

BTW, I am removing posts on the YT page that contain insults and/or ad hominem attacks. If you re-post your comment about the GPS data without the insult, I will let it stand (e.g. something like "if we the get a GPS fix on TM we'll know more about what happened and which hypotheses hold water, and which don't" would be fine. "Idiotic", no.)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 07:09:07 AM
I want to address the determination of the clock time used in the clubhouse cam video. We were aware of the official document stating the time stamps were 18 minutes off, and we tried that. However, it did not create plausible sync between the time Timothy Smith's squad car arrives on scene, and the time W3 reports seeing it. I assume that if the security vid clock was incorrect, it's not going to record just how incorrect it is, and the '18 minutes' figure was a rough guess. tchoupi, willis, amsterdam and I spent days parsing the time cues between the footage, the NEN call and the 911 calls to arrive at our conclusion.

That is to say, the clock came from the evidence, not any hypothesis of the events. For example, I think initially we all believed GZ called 311 after parking his car somewhere, but the timing evidence indicates he called while driving away from the mailbox area down TTL. It seems counter-intuitive, but there it is.

Time and space are not easily bent. In the process of creating little sprites for the truck, TM and GZ, and getting even rough approximations of their movements to work out in time and space, a lot of specific ideas about where and how things happened had to be discarded. A change of a few seconds or a few yards in position will throw the whole thing impossibly out of whack. (E.g. we know GZ didn't run over Martin with his SUV...) I would have thought GZ parked closer to the first bend when facing the mailboxes, but it just doesn't fit the time and space constraints.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 01, 2013, 10:04:08 AM
Sorry RickyJim. I did the best I could. Diagrams and text wouldn't maintain coherence in time, which i think is crucial.
As a former academic and documentary film maker, you should know very well the importance of clear, careful exposition in presenting your ideas.  Something as complicated as deducing a car's trajectory from poor quality images of lights moving against different backgrounds deserves a presentation as good, say, as expected in a refereed scientific journal.  Bringing in irrelevant assumptions about DeeDee, Martin and Zimmerman should be kept to the barest minimum.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 11:36:24 AM
I don't agree one can definitively say that George did not park in front of the clubhouse.

I note, with appreciation DiwataMan's careful and limited wording here. I contend we can definitively say that GZ did not park in front of the clubhouse where and when he said he did in the 're-enactment.' He has Randy Smith pull in to the parking area right in front of the window seen in a direct view from the gameroom camera.

Furthermore, by any calculation, Zimmerman's truck was on TTL, not in front of the clubhouse, when he called 311.

However to elaborate on my previous comment, it is physically impossible for the clubhouse time stamps to be 18 minutes off. If they were, that would mean W3 sees Timothy Smith before he even enters RATL. We determined the videos are 16:32 off, not that much difference from 18:00 if you look at it casually, but quite significant when you try to correlate the video footage with the 311 and 911 calls.

So if Zimmerman ever did park in front of the clubhouse, it wasn't in the spot he told Smith he had been in, and he didn't call 311 from there either.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: ding7777 on February 01, 2013, 12:07:50 PM

However to elaborate on my previous comment, it is physically impossible for the clubhouse time stamps to be 18 minutes off. If they were, that would mean W3 sees Timothy Smith before he even enters RATL. We determined the videos are 16:32 off, not that much difference from 18:00 if you look at it casually, but quite significant when you try to correlate the video footage with the 311 and 911 calls.


How do know that the timestamp did not lose/gain  1, 2 3, or  nth  seconds during the 45 minute duration?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 01, 2013, 12:15:53 PM
For example, I think initially we all believed GZ called 311 after parking his car somewhere, but the timing evidence indicates he called while driving away from the mailbox area down TTL. It seems counter-intuitive, but there it is.

He probably had the number on speed-dial.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: AghastInFL on February 01, 2013, 12:48:52 PM
I note, with appreciation DiwataMan's careful and limited wording here. I contend we can definitively say that GZ did not park in front of the clubhouse where and when he said he did in the 're-enactment.' He has Randy Smith pull in to the parking area right in front of the window seen in a direct view from the gameroom camera.

Furthermore, by any calculation, Zimmerman's truck was on TTL, not in front of the clubhouse, when he called 311.

However to elaborate on my previous comment, it is physically impossible for the clubhouse time stamps to be 18 minutes off. If they were, that would mean W3 sees Timothy Smith before he even enters RATL. We determined the videos are 16:32 off, not that much difference from 18:00 if you look at it casually, but quite significant when you try to correlate the video footage with the 311 and 911 calls.

So if Zimmerman ever did park in front of the clubhouse, it wasn't in the spot he told Smith he had been in, and he didn't call 311 from there either.

I have to ask, you have stated now at least twice as absolute "Timothy Smith" car... what identifies Timothy Smith's patrol car? have you identified all other subsequent arriving vehicles similarly?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 01, 2013, 01:50:10 PM
Well one thing I have to give whonoze is at least he's willing to discuss what he believes and why he believes it with the "opposition" so to speak.

I'll reiterate these points again though. As interesting as the clubhouse videos may be to some, in the end I find them virtually useless and uninteresting. I'm willing to discuss them and even present what I believe I see in them but again, at the end of the day there is just too much uncertainty involved. It's a simple test of basic epistemology.

Look, just take any part of the video that anyone says is George's truck, or any vehicle for that matter, and show it to someone, preferably someone who knows nothing about the case. Ask them to identify the make and model of the car. They won't be able to do it. That's really the end of the discussion right there. Now we may all agree, with the knowledge of the case, that one vehicle may more than likely be George's truck but again at the end of the day we can not say definitively that it is. And that's just the first and foremost problem. Once you get into the particulars of movement and such it becomes worse.

Then we have the basic standard of burden of proof and the scientific method. It's the burden of the person who makes the claim to prove that claim. It's fine to speculate, hypothesize and so on regarding what we see in the videos but again at the end of the day it will always remain in the realm of hypothesis and never move beyond that. Though I will say one could do some further observation by going there and doing some tests but I seriously doubt anyone is going to do that and none of us have access to preform tests so the point stands.

As much fun as we can have with that and arguing differing aspects, in the end that's all it will be, fun.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 01, 2013, 02:51:03 PM
I'm not convinced that the 18 minute error is accurate, but I'm even more skeptical of an analysis that disregards it and fits the video's timing to whatever seems to work out best, based on fuzzy flashes of light. If the video's timing were accurately known, I think some valuable information could be deduced; but without knowing the actual timing, there are too many variables and too little information.

I wonder if comparing the rain patterns between the different videos and the bank video might help nail down the timeline, or at least help confirm or refute the 18 minute timing error.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 03:15:04 PM
How do know that the timestamp did not lose/gain  1, 2 3, or  nth  seconds during the 45 minute duration?
All video systems in the US are locked into a 60 cycle clock. They record at 59.94 fields per second, which works out to 29.97 full frames per second. In order to match time code to actual running time a system called "drop frame" time code is used. This doesn't actually remove frames from the video, but rather skips a frame number every few minutes. So the counter will go from say 9:59:29 to 10:00:02. I do not know what kind of timing system was used in the raw videos DiwataMan obtained from the discovery site. Since the videos only advance one frame per second, the counter may only record seconds, not frames.

@DiwataMan, when you examined the raw videos did you see any evidence of timing slippage, or did the advance of the counter correspond to the duration of the running time?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 03:17:53 PM
I have to ask, you have stated now at least twice as absolute "Timothy Smith" car... what identifies Timothy Smith's patrol car?
He was the first officer on scene, he drove down TTL, and the clock time of the squad car showing up in the EPH means it has to be Smith. None of the other officers had arrived by then.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 03:30:33 PM
I'm not convinced that the 18 minute error is accurate, but I'm even more skeptical of an analysis that disregards it and fits the video's timing to whatever seems to work out best

It's not "whatever seems to work out best" but what is physically possible. If the security footage timing is 18 minutes off, that puts the first squad car inside RATL BEFORE the shot was fired.

The only possibility is that the security cam timestamps are off by even LESS than the 16:32 we deduced. W3 simply could not have seen the squad car any earlier than we placed it. Had she not seen it until it got closer to her home, that would reduce the error, not lengthen it. So we stayed as close to the 18 minute mark as is possible, given the limits imposed by W3's call.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 01, 2013, 03:52:59 PM
All video systems in the US are locked into a 60 cycle clock. They record at 59.94 fields per second, which works out to 29.97 full frames per second. In order to match time code to actual running time a system called "drop frame" time code is used. This doesn't actually remove frames from the video, but rather skips a frame number every few minutes. So the counter will go from say 9:59:29 to 10:00:02. I do not know what kind of timing system was used in the raw videos DiwataMan obtained from the discovery site. Since the videos only advance one frame per second, the counter may only record seconds, not frames.

@DiwataMan, when you examined the raw videos did you see any evidence of timing slippage, or did the advance of the counter correspond to the duration of the running time?

I'm not even sure if bothering with all that helps. You can see each frame shift. You could count every frame and see if they are the same from minute to minute, should only take about forever, ;D. But as far as raw video goes I'm not sure what you mean. There are two types on the state's website; the video with the software and the avi files. Frankly I'm surprised no one from your side has bothered to gain access to the State's discovery site. You can get the video with the timestamp from there.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 01, 2013, 04:30:49 PM
I understand the 60 cycles per minute shutter speed.  Within each second, is it known what the firing order of the different cameras is?  Or do they simultaneously take pictures withing say .001 second of each other?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 01, 2013, 04:49:14 PM
It's not "whatever seems to work out best" but what is physically possible. If the security footage timing is 18 minutes off, that puts the first squad car inside RATL BEFORE the shot was fired.

I'm not convinced you know which is the first squad car.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 01, 2013, 08:14:37 PM
Then we have the basic standard of burden of proof and the scientific method. It's the burden of the person who makes the claim to prove that claim. It's fine to speculate, hypothesize and so on regarding what we see in the videos but again at the end of the day it will always remain in the realm of hypothesis and never move beyond that. Though I will say one could do some further observation by going there and doing some tests but I seriously doubt anyone is going to do that and none of us have access to preform tests so the point stands.

To be accepted in a Florida court, such an analysis would need to pass a Frye hearing. That usually means the methodology needs to be based on peer-reviewed research. That's not a formal requirement, but I think it's how courts have usually interpreted and applied the Frye standard.

Frye v. United States, 293 F. 1013 (D.C. Cir. 1923) (http://www.law.ufl.edu/_pdf/faculty/little/topic8.pdf)

Quote
Just when a scientific principle or discovery crosses the line between the experimental and demonstrable stages is difficult to define. Somewhere in this twilight zone the evidential force of the principle must be recognized, and while the courts will go a long way in admitting experimental testimony deduced from a well-recognized scientific principle or discovery, the thing from which the deduction is made must be sufficiently established to have gained general acceptance in the particular field in which it belongs.

This is what will exclude those 'voice experts' who were lionized by media outlets that almost completely ignored the admissibility question.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 08:28:48 PM
Within each second, is it known what the firing order of the different cameras is?  Or do they simultaneously take pictures withing say .001 second of each other?
I have no knowledge of the specifics of security camera recordings. I would guess, for efficiency's sake, all the cameras at the clubhouse are recorded onto a single device, and some kind of device can extract the individual views and duplicate the frames to put the output into proper clock time. If that is indeed the case, one might guess the cameras fire sequentially rather than simultaneously. However, since they're synced to the same clock, they might fire simultaneously with the images going into a frame buffer so they're just recorded sequentially. A video frame is captured one pixel at a time starting at the top and moving toward the bottom. So the pixel at the bottom is captured 1/29th of a second after the one at the top anyway.

Based on the bloom of the lights, I would guess the shutter speed is 1/30 second, but it could be 1/15th.

None of these differences really make a difference. I don't know why you're hung up about them.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 08:39:36 PM
This is what will exclude those 'voice experts' who were lionized by media outlets that almost completely ignored the admissibility question.
But that's how those guys make their living, as 'expert witnesses,' so courts have accepted their testimony on a fairly regular basis. In the case of Ed Primeau, whose method is 'critical listening' that means the courts have pretty low standards. (I find Primeau to be an utter bozo.) Tom Owen at least has an approach that could be put to the rigors of the scientific method, not that he came anywhere near that in his quickie workup on the 911 screams for the newspaper.

I doubt a study by Owen (or similar) would be ruled inadmissable, but i also highly doubt the prosecution will attempt to introduce any voice analysis. Unless they're hiding a surprise audiologist somewhere, they only put the two guys from the newspaper story in the witness list, which means they didn't do their own research into experts on the topic, which means they don't plan to go there at trial.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 08:43:08 PM
I'm not convinced you know which is the first squad car.
So you think there was another squad there BEFORE that, like before the fight started??

CONSPIRACY! The cops were in on the shooting! (What's your handle on FLLB?)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 01, 2013, 09:17:16 PM
But that's how those guys make their living, as 'expert witnesses,' so courts have accepted their testimony on a fairly regular basis.

I don't know how Owens and Primeau make their livings. But the issue isn't the person, it's the methodology.

I wouldn't doubt Owens has often testified in cases with adequate voice samples for accepted methods to be used. That's not so in this case, so Owens had to resort to experimental methods. These methods have been accepted in court only once, in Connecticut, not Florida. This is according to Owen himself, in a 4/2/12 interview (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-last-word/46934308/#46934308) with Lawrence O'Donnell.

I have to give O'Donnell credit for raising the admissibility issue, although he tried to spin it his way. It's the only time I recall it being mentioned in the MSM.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 01, 2013, 09:23:26 PM
None of these differences really make a difference. I don't know why you're hung up about them.
You seem to be making conclusions about whether one car or two went by, and in what direction depending on the sequence of lights appearing in different cameras.  I would think this would depend on the relationship between the different shutter times and speed or the cars.  Have you worked out what lights would fire in which order for the four possibilities of cars going in either direction on TTL and RVC?  And just what conclusions are you certain of from all this work besides Zimmerman didn't park at the clubhouse in the spot he said he did on the reenactment?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 01, 2013, 09:32:01 PM
So you think there was another squad there BEFORE that, like before the fight started??

CONSPIRACY! The cops were in on the shooting! (What's your handle on FLLB?)

Without being rude...Where am I missing that Smith came down TTL and not RVC?  Can you link back to that please?  TIA.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 01, 2013, 09:40:26 PM
I wouldn't doubt Owens has often testified in cases with adequate voice samples for accepted methods to be used. That's not so in this case, so Owens had to resort to experimental methods. These methods have been accepted in court only once, in Connecticut, not Florida. This is according to Owen himself, in a 4/2/12 interview (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-last-word/46934308/#46934308) with Lawrence O'Donnell.

I have to give O'Donnell credit for raising the admissibility issue, although he tried to spin it his way. It's the only time I recall it being mentioned in the MSM.
Owen never has testified in court, and never will, about comparing a scream with a normal voice sample to determine if they came from the same person.  Let alone the fact the FBI says that original 9-11 call exemplar isn't good enough for comparing with anything.  The only one who made any sense on that program about the audio was Charles Blow who cast doubt on the entire enterprise.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 10:07:09 PM
Without being rude...Where am I missing that Smith came down TTL and not RVC?  Can you link back to that please?  TIA.
I don't know what TIA stands for (other than Transient Ischemic Attack).

There is no official documentation of Smith's route. His woefully wretched written report only states that he parked in front of W19's home on RVC. However, his path can be deduced from the response times listed in the police reports, the squad car passing the EPH, W3s 911 call, and W18 and W6s 911 calls. Had he gone directly down RVC he would have arrived at the site of the shooting much sooner than he did.

I certainly don't consider your query rude, but I fail to see how Smith's route is a matter of controversy.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 01, 2013, 10:13:29 PM
You seem to be making conclusions about whether one car or two went by, and in what direction depending on the sequence of lights appearing in different cameras.  I would think this would depend on the relationship between the different shutter times and speed or the cars.

Not really. If you scan through the videos in fast forward the directionality is obvious.

Quote
And just what conclusions are you certain of from all this work besides Zimmerman didn't park at the clubhouse in the spot he said he did on the reenactment?
**sigh** I'm too tired to type it all out now. Maybe later...
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 01, 2013, 10:20:47 PM
But that's how those guys make their living, as 'expert witnesses,' so courts have accepted their testimony on a fairly regular basis. . . . I doubt a study by Owen (or similar) would be ruled inadmissable

The level of critical reasoning on display here, doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the methods used in the making of the video.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 01, 2013, 10:22:43 PM
I don't know what TIA stands for

'Thanks In Advance'
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: TalkLeft on February 02, 2013, 12:24:14 AM
I don't know how Owens and Primeau make their livings. But the issue isn't the person, it's the methodology.

I wouldn't doubt Owens has often testified in cases with adequate voice samples for accepted methods to be used. That's not so in this case, so Owens had to resort to experimental methods. These methods have been accepted in court only once, in Connecticut, not Florida. This is according to Owen himself, in a 4/2/12 interview (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-last-word/46934308/#46934308) with Lawrence O'Donnell.

I have to give O'Donnell credit for raising the admissibility issue, although he tried to spin it his way. It's the only time I recall it being mentioned in the MSM.

I discussed the admissibility, the methodology and detailed the CT case here (http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/4/3/03733/45115). The CT case is quite  different. For one thing, the defendant was pro se and probably didn't know how to mount an effective challenge. For another, there was DNA evidence --her DNA was found in a blood stain on a bathroom sink handle in the victim's condo.  And for yet another, the software he used is new and he is apparently the owner of it. See my post.

I've worked with Owen, he was my expert for the audio/video in McVeigh (the OKC bombing case.) I spent many hours/days at his office in New York as he analyzed audio and video. I like him personally. But I don't put any stock in the biometric analysis he did at the request of the Orlando Sentinel. He wasn't working off the original, and  you can't compare a scream to speaking voice and as the FBI experts said in Zimmerman, the quality of the original is just too poor to make any comparison.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 02, 2013, 05:15:32 AM
We're getting OT here, but I think my comment on the audiologists was misunderstood. I don't think what either Primeau or Owen did for the Sentinal is worth beans. As IANAL, I can't say that as a judge I would rule their testimony inadmissible. But as someone who knows a lot about audio, I am confident that as a defense council I could rip any testimony similar to what they offered the OS into teeny tiny shreds on cross.

So my post was not an endorsement of either fellow, merely my admittedly anecdotal impression of how well the legal system seems to adhere to rigorous scientific standards in the category of expert testimony (i.e. not very).

And as I said, I doubt the prosecution will call any voice analysis expert. They don't have to. They have GZ "Help me! Help me!" exemplar recording whch is so obviously different from the screams on W3's 911 that no expert testimony is required for the jury to draw conclusions from it.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 02, 2013, 05:22:28 AM
I don't know what TIA stands for (other than Transient Ischemic Attack).

There is no official documentation of Smith's route. His woefully wretched written report only states that he parked in front of W19's home on RVC. However, his path can be deduced from the response times listed in the police reports, the squad car passing the EPH, W3s 911 call, and W18 and W6s 911 calls. Had he gone directly down RVC he would have arrived at the site of the shooting much sooner than he did.

I certainly don't consider your query rude, but I fail to see how Smith's route is a matter of controversy.

I don't consider it to be a controversy except for the fact you are making an assumption that is not true.
He says that he "responded to 2831 Retreat View Circle and exited my marked Sanford police vehicle and began to canvas the area."  I would think that is pretty concise, not a "woefully wretched written report."

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf
page 14

ETA:  Link.  Sorry I forgot.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 02, 2013, 05:29:49 AM
To get back to stuff that's in the video, I want to note that the security footage is only part of it. There's also a lot of evidence that comes from synching the NEN and 911 calls to the video, and to each other. One little bit I find interesting:
At 7:18:39 JohnW6 tells the 911 operator "There's two guys in the backyard with flashlights." This more than a minute before Smith arrives on scene and arrests GZ. So we know one of the guys with a flashlight is W13. The only other person there is Zimmerman. His 'tactical' flashlight wasn't working. So he had to be using his mini-key-chain light. Which means he dropped it at the T AFTER the struggle, probably because he didn't want anything in his hands when he surrendered to the officer... And there goes the one piece of physical evidence supporting the idea that the physical struggle began at the T. (Now, you're not going to question John's powers of observation, are you :D.)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 02, 2013, 05:48:50 AM
Whonoze, have you looked over the transcript that a business associate of Jeralyn's did for her concerning the audio transcript of the NEN?

It is interesting and I think you might like reading it...or maybe not.  Who knows?  8-)
http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf

The one thing I don't understand about your compilation is all of the UTurns.  You have one on RVC early on and one or two others on TTL.  ((Sorry working from memory))  In the lower screen, you have the truck making a solid U-turn every time.  Considering the turning radius for a truck that size and the width of the street, I would think a three point turn would be more appropriate or accurate.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 02, 2013, 07:24:21 AM
They don't have to. They have GZ "Help me! Help me!" exemplar recording whch is so obviously different from the screams on W3's 911 that no expert testimony is required for the jury to draw conclusions from it.
Are you saying that the jury will conclude that that exemplar proves that Zimmerman wasn't the person screaming on the 9/11 call?  The FBI had the exemplar and didn't make such a conclusion.  Only through extreme incompetence on the part of the defense would the jury be allowed to make such a comparison. 
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 02, 2013, 07:38:32 AM
At 7:18:39 JohnW6 tells the 911 operator "There's two guys in the backyard with flashlights." This more than a minute before Smith arrives on scene and arrests GZ. So we know one of the guys with a flashlight is W13. The only other person there is Zimmerman. His 'tactical' flashlight wasn't working. So he had to be using his mini-key-chain light. Which means he dropped it at the T AFTER the struggle, probably because he didn't want anything in his hands when he surrendered to the officer... And there goes the one piece of physical evidence supporting the idea that the physical struggle began at the T. (Now, you're not going to question John's powers of observation, are you :D.)
Is your claim is that Zimmerman ran back up to the T to drop the keychain there?  Strange that nobody mentioned it.  He could have just put it in his pocket.  I would more readily believe that John only saw one flashlight and misspoke rather than believe anything as bizarre as what you are saying.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 08:00:14 AM
Is your claim is that Zimmerman ran back up to the T to drop the keychain there?  Strange that nobody mentioned it.

Why would he have to run? 

W-18 said on her 911 call that she saw Zimmerman walking.

I don't know of anything in the discovery that is inconsistent with Zimmerman walking to the T before Officer Smith arrived. None of the statements or police reports were specific about where Zimmerman was standing when he was taken into custody.

Early in the discussion of the discovery I conjectured that Zimmerman might have dropped the keychain when he raised his hands to surrender.

W-18 didn't overhear the conversation between Zimmerman and W-13, but she did hear Zimmerman admit to the shooting. To me that suggests Zimmerman might have moved closer to her window before Smith appeared.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 02, 2013, 08:10:34 AM
The one thing I don't understand about your compilation is all of the UTurns.  You have one on RVC early on and one or two others on TTL.  ((Sorry working from memory))  In the lower screen, you have the truck making a solid U-turn every time.  Considering the turning radius for a truck that size and the width of the street, I would think a three point turn would be more appropriate or accurate.
I agree. The animation is an approximation. The video states that, and specifically notes we do not know where or how exactly the vehicle turned. Not knowing, I just put the solid U-turns in because they're easier to animate. (I'm not an animator, and the work is quite difficult and time consuming). I did put in a two-step turnaround for the vehicle moving from facing the mailboxes to GZ's final position, because it matches the visual evidence, and it seemed important to show that. I put the time into the things that were important, and where I could match the animation to the videos with accuracy. For example, those U-turns are three key-frames each, and there's probably a dozen or more keyframes getting GZ past the mailbox and around the bend.

The second turn on RVC could have been a genuine U-turn if the vehicle used the parking area in front of the clubhouse for extra radius. But without tests that would match the 2/26 footage to known paths of a Ridgeline there's no way to know for sure.

As the video states, we can't say definitively that the first two passes are the same vehicle as the third (which does have to be Zimmerman), but the probablity is pretty good.

--

The transcript looks a little 'biased' to me. I got a laugh out of 'f-ing puddles'.  He said 'coons', not that that means anything different than 'punks' in that context, or is evidence of bigotry (i elaborate on this at http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/why-coons-or-punks-doesnt-really-matter/).
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 02, 2013, 08:12:42 AM
Is your claim is that Zimmerman ran back up to the T to drop the keychain there?
No.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 02, 2013, 08:55:12 AM
Why would he have to run? 

W-18 said on her 911 call that she saw Zimmerman walking.

I don't know of anything in the discovery that is inconsistent with Zimmerman walking to the T before Officer Smith arrived. None of the statements or police reports were specific about where Zimmerman was standing when he was taken into custody.

Early in the discussion of the discovery I conjectured that Zimmerman might have dropped the keychain when he raised his hands to surrender.

W-18 didn't overhear the conversation between Zimmerman and W-13, but she did hear Zimmerman admit to the shooting. To me that suggests Zimmerman might have moved closer to her window before Smith appeared.
Using Occam's razor, the best explanation for the keychain being found were it was is that it dropped out of Zimmerman's hands during the initial struggle with Martin.  We know he was using the light on it to navigate the cut through.   I can't see any reason for Zimmerman going from John's lawn towards the T except to retrieve his keychain and if he did that, he would have put it in his pocket.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 09:20:38 AM
Using Occam's razor, the best explanation for the keychain being found were it was is that it dropped out of Zimmerman's hands during the initial struggle with Martin.  We know he was using the light on it to navigate the cut through.

How do we know that?

If we assume Zimmerman dropped the keychain at the start of the struggle, then it's overwhelmingly likely he was using it as you say. Absent that assumption, which for this discussion is circular, what else is there to even suggest that?

Listening to the recordings of Zimmerman's SPD interviews after we had been discussing the other discovery for a few days, I found it striking that the keychain was never mentioned, by Zimmerman or the investigators.

It may be that Zimmerman, with his 'terrible memory', only recalled the keychain flashlight after the shooting. That would explain why he never mentioned it in the interviews. It would have seemed much less relevant than if he had used it before the shooting.   

Quote
I can't see any reason for Zimmerman going from John's lawn towards the T except to retrieve his keychain and if he did that, he would have put it in his pocket.

He might have wanted to stretch his legs for a last time before being arrested. He had some sitting to look forward to.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 02, 2013, 09:25:51 AM
I would more readily believe that John only saw one flashlight and misspoke ...
Actually it is not hard to believe that refraction from the raindrops on John's second floor window caused the flashlight image to double. I see things like that all the time.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 02, 2013, 09:36:24 AM
How do we know that?

If we assume Zimmerman dropped the keychain at the start of the struggle, then it's overwhelmingly likely he was using it as you say. Absent that assumption, which for this discussion is circular, what else is there to even suggest that?

Listening to the recordings of Zimmerman's SPD interviews after we had been discussing the other discovery for a few days, I found it striking that the keychain was never mentioned, by Zimmerman or the investigators.

It may be that Zimmerman, with his 'terrible memory', only recalled the keychain flashlight after the shooting. That would explain why he never mentioned it in the interviews. It would have seemed much less relevant than if he had used it before the shooting.   

He might have wanted to stretch his legs for a last time before being arrested. He had some sitting to look forward to.
He certainly made a big deal over the non working larger flashlight during the interviews and said he was trying to get it to work so he wouldn't have to go back in the dark.  It would make sense for him to use the only flashlight he could get to work.   Do you have any doubts that the fight started where W#11 says she first heard noises? 

I would feel crushed is there is no GPS data from any of the phones to be had and we will continue in the same vein during the year.   :( ???
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 02, 2013, 10:51:37 AM
I agree. The animation is an approximation. The video states that, and specifically notes we do not know where or how exactly the vehicle turned. Not knowing, I just put the solid U-turns in because they're easier to animate. (I'm not an animator, and the work is quite difficult and time consuming). I did put in a two-step turnaround for the vehicle moving from facing the mailboxes to GZ's final position, because it matches the visual evidence, and it seemed important to show that. I put the time into the things that were important, and where I could match the animation to the videos with accuracy. For example, those U-turns are three key-frames each, and there's probably a dozen or more keyframes getting GZ past the mailbox and around the bend.

The second turn on RVC could have been a genuine U-turn if the vehicle used the parking area in front of the clubhouse for extra radius. But without tests that would match the 2/26 footage to known paths of a Ridgeline there's no way to know for sure.

As the video states, we can't say definitively that the first two passes are the same vehicle as the third (which does have to be Zimmerman), but the probablity is pretty good.

--

The transcript looks a little 'biased' to me. I got a laugh out of 'f-ing puddles'.  He said 'coons', not that that means anything different than 'punks' in that context, or is evidence of bigotry (i elaborate on this at http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2012/05/27/why-coons-or-punks-doesnt-really-matter/).

I find it laughable that you would say that anything is a little biased. 

The reason I pointed out that transcript is that Lee is an audio specialist.  The important thing in that to consider is that only once does he mention what could be a gear shift.

The point is all about the times.  You "see" Smith's car arriving on Twin Trees when that is not credible.  For some reason, I read what you wrote is that it took well over a minute for Smith to arrive.  Going just from memory, I think he was there between 20-40 seconds after the shot.  I would have to go back and view the Event Log to be certain. In the meantime, I am using this one until I have time to go get one I can reference for you with a link.

1916:43 911 call placed by (redacted) where Zimmerman is heard screaming for help
1917:20 Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease
1917:40 Officer T. Smith arrives on scene


What you think is Zimmerman's truck, and I believe time wise that I can spot it too, neither of us can say without any doubt that it is the Ridgeline because there are no distinguishing factors that confirm it to be true.  I don't agree with your timeline.  If you were doing the animation correctly and making that three point turn it would chew up valuable seconds and that goes against your narrative.  The turning radius for that truck is greater than 21 ft.  21.3ft  IIRC.  That makes it nothing but speculation.

I applaud that you put in the split screens for the clubhouse and pool.  I thought that was very interesting because of the rain patterns.  Since that is way out of my paygrade, I appreciate the hard work.

I just am not convinced you have made your case.  Call it beyond reasonable doubt.

And it is a funny thing about the word you say he used.  When it was first played, I had read about it beforehand.  I heard the same as you.  I was shocked.  When it came out about the punks, I listened again and I could hear that word too.  IMO, you are going to hear what you need or want to hear.  Since the State has said/agreed it was "Punks," I will stay with that.

In the end, you are right.  It won't matter.  What I find to be...well...something...is that in both of the words and the phraseology, they were pluralized.  That would be a generalization.  Yet many think that it is directed solely at Trayvon Martin instead of considering the situation in general.

And since I  have noticed that you were complaining about your comments being deleted from here at another site, this has not happened.  There has been relatively good discourse about the video.  I have thought there were a couple of times both of our posts would be deleted and they weren't.  I also believe the statement RE: The Other Offensive "C" Word will has crossed the line here.  I suspect it will be gone along with this one.  We have already had stern warnings that if we wanted to discuss this in detail, we should go to the site from which it originated.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 11:08:12 AM
Do you have any doubts that the fight started where W#11 says she first heard noises? 

Yes.

I doubt Zimmerman and Martin ever had a fight, because I doubt they exist. The information I've received about them could be computer-generated signals fed into my vat-enclosed brain, or hallucinations produced by Descartes's Demon.

I chose my handle for a reason.

I hope I'm not the only solipsist on the forum. That would be lonely.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 11:15:00 AM
It would make sense for him to use the only flashlight he could get to work.

He forgot he was packing a double-action semi-automatic pistol. Why do you think he would remember he had a flashlight on his keychain?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 02, 2013, 11:22:54 AM
I  have noticed that you were complaining about your comments being deleted from here at another site...

I think you mistake me for someone else. I do not recall having a comment deleted here, so I certainly don't recall complaining about it. Until I discovered you were talking about the video I haven't posted anything on TalkLeft in at least 9 months. Back in the Stone Age I may have once posted something that breached rules I was not fully aware of, and had it deleted. If so I certainly wasn't upset about it.

I shall not respond to the fact that you prefer vague and proven-to-be inaccurate official documents over physical evidence. Res ipsa loquitor.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 02, 2013, 11:28:11 AM
1916:43 911 call placed by (redacted) where Zimmerman is heard screaming for help
1917:20 Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease
1917:40 Officer T. Smith arrives on scene
Thanks Deb.  So one of the two flashlights S#6 reporgts seeing on his 911 call could have been Officer Smith's?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 02, 2013, 11:30:20 AM
Occam's razor would say the best explanation for a guy clearly saying he was seeing two flashlights is that he saw two flashlights.

But then Occam razor would say the best explanation for someone being prosecuted for murder making a long string of "mis-statements" about the facts of the case is that he's lying his ass off.

BTW, I think Team Z fails to realize that GZ's comment to Sean perfectly explains 'why Trayvon just didn't go home.'

'I don't want to reveal my address. I don't know where this creepy guy is at.'

He was, after all, being stalked no matter how you look at it...
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 02, 2013, 11:36:39 AM
So one of the two flashlights S#6 reporgts seeing on his 911 call could have been Officer Smith's?
No.
That timeline has long since been proven BRD to be erroneous. It's pathetic that anyone claiming to be up on the evidence would post it here. Anyway, "on scene" refers to when Smith's car pulled into RATL. He wandered around for ~ two minutes before getting to the actual crime scene, his arrival clearly documented by multiple 911 calls with fixed time stamps. I know these times backwards and forwards. John made his comment over a minute and a half before Smith got there. Period. End of story.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 02, 2013, 11:50:17 AM
I think you mistake me for someone else. I do not recall having a comment deleted here, so I certainly don't recall complaining about it. Until I discovered you were talking about the video I haven't posted anything on TalkLeft in at least 9 months. Back in the Stone Age I may have once posted something that breached rules I was not fully aware of, and had it deleted. If so I certainly wasn't upset about it.

I shall not respond to the fact that you prefer vague and proven-to-be inaccurate official documents over physical evidence. Res ipsa loquitor.

I went wading through a bunch of comments and I am afraid that I have mistaken you for someone else.  I am deeply sorry.  I shouldn't do something like that from memory.  I apologize.

Can you link to physical evidence you are citing?

I have to leave for work.  I will be late this evening and I will look for the link with time lines.  Those are computer generated.   I think it is in the 284 doc dump but will have it for you by morning.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 02, 2013, 12:37:08 PM
No.
That timeline has long since been proven BRD to be erroneous. It's pathetic that anyone claiming to be up on the evidence would post it here. Anyway, "on scene" refers to when Smith's car pulled into RATL. He wandered around for ~ two minutes before getting to the actual crime scene, his arrival clearly documented by multiple 911 calls with fixed time stamps. I know these times backwards and forwards. John made his comment over a minute and a half before Smith got there. Period. End of story.

Wrong.  I have shown you where Officer Smith arriving via RVC is a documented fact.  I went so far as to give you the link and page number.  You have him arriving on TTL and you are using W6's 911 to prove something fictional speculative just to fit your own timeline.  I don't know what officers came in through TTL.  On the  video there is a marked increase in traffic towards the end and after the 7:19 approx mark on your frames.

None of which are Officer Smith.  Period.  End of story.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: Kyreth on February 02, 2013, 12:58:57 PM
He was, after all, being stalked no matter how you look at it...

"Stalking" in Florida has a specific definition that doesn't remotely apply to what happened that night.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: TalkLeft on February 02, 2013, 01:13:14 PM
He was, after all, being stalked no matter how you look at it...

WhoNoze,  this is not accurate, it is your opinion. You may not state your opinion as undisputed truth. You said you would follow the rules if I allowed you to post here. You may not use profanity without asterisks (and yes, saying someone is lying his as* off is included.) And you may not insult other members or their posts or get into sniping exchanges. You may disagree with the content of someone else's post, you cannot denigrate the person.

I do not agree with your views on the case. You asked to be allowed to post to refute criticism of your video.  I agreed. But you cannot use these forums to  continually post your biased views against Zimmerman, and you cannot claim your speculation is fact. Please either follow the rules or return to the forum from which you came.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 02, 2013, 01:22:52 PM
To get back to stuff that's in the video, I want to note that the security footage is only part of it. There's also a lot of evidence that comes from synching the NEN and 911 calls to the video, and to each other. One little bit I find interesting:
At 7:18:39 JohnW6 tells the 911 operator "There's two guys in the backyard with flashlights." This more than a minute before Smith arrives on scene and arrests GZ. So we know one of the guys with a flashlight is W13. The only other person there is Zimmerman. His 'tactical' flashlight wasn't working. So he had to be using his mini-key-chain light. Which means he dropped it at the T AFTER the struggle, probably because he didn't want anything in his hands when he surrendered to the officer... And there goes the one piece of physical evidence supporting the idea that the physical struggle began at the T. (Now, you're not going to question John's powers of observation, are you :D.)

I don't recall W13 mentioning that Zimmerman had a flashlight.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 02, 2013, 07:06:02 PM

BTW, I think Team Z fails to realize that GZ's comment to Sean perfectly explains 'why Trayvon just didn't go home.'

'I don't want to reveal my address. I don't know where this creepy guy is at.'

He was, after all, being stalked no matter how you look at it...
You seem to be drifting away from your video where you have Zimmerman running south on RVC to TTL while Martin spends that time close to Brandy's house doing nothing.  In just about any version, Martin had plenty of time when Zimmerman was out of sight in which he could have gone home.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 07:09:27 PM
I don't recall W13 mentioning that Zimmerman had a flashlight.

He didn't.

No one said he did.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 07:50:02 PM
For some reason, I read what you wrote is that it took well over a minute for Smith to arrive.  Going just from memory, I think he was there between 20-40 seconds after the shot.  I would have to go back and view the Event Log to be certain. In the meantime, I am using this one until I have time to go get one I can reference for you with a link.

1916:43 911 call placed by (redacted) where Zimmerman is heard screaming for help
1917:20 Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease
1917:40 Officer T. Smith arrives on scene

That is Singleton's timeline, 39-40/184. (http://www.axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonMartinFiles/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf)

It is discredited.

Event Reports for the 911 calls are in the 7th Supplemental. (http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/GZ-States-7th-Supp-Discovery_Redacted.pdf)

W-11's call is Event 1669, pp. 8-9, connection time 7:16:11.

The gunshot was at 7:16:56
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 02, 2013, 11:24:18 PM
Here's a timeline, assuming that 911 and NEN call recordings begin at the Connection time on the Event Reports. I've quoted callers directly or indirectly as convenient.

7:13:41  Zimmerman NEN call ends.

7:15:01-16:59 Martin call ends.

7:16:11  W-11 Connects 

7:16:41  W-3 Connects 

7:16:56  Gunshot

7:17:06  W-18 Connects
   
7:17:15  W-6  Connects

7:17:46  W-3 reports an officer on TTL.

7:17:52-55  W-18: "There's a man coming out. There's people coming out with flashlights."
   
7:17:54  W-5  Connects 
 
7:18:00  W-19 Connects

7:18:00-01 W-18: "There's a man walking out with a flashlight right now."

7:18:05  W-5 relays report from W-16 of a black guy standing over the body.

7:18:18   W-6 reports a guy with a flashlight.

7:18:19   W-5 reports people coming with flashlights.

7:18:25   W-6 reports flashlights.

7:18:40  W-11 Ends.

7:19:04   W-6 Ends.

7:19:08-12  W-18:  "There's a man out here with a flashlight, with a man who had been wrestling."

7:19:09  W-5 reports "people coming out".

7:19:23  W-5: "Police are here."

7:19:29-33 W-18: "People are coming, I think, with another gentleman with a flashlight. I don't know if it's a policeman."

7:19:36-39   W-18: "He shot the person. He's just saying he shot the person."

7:19:44-46  W-18: "A guy is raising his hands up."

7:19:45 W-5 Ends

7:21:17  W-19 Ends

7:21:49  W-3 Ends
 
7:21:56  W-18 reports another officer arriving.

7:31:32 W-18 Ends
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 03, 2013, 12:28:16 AM
An FBI report on 111/284 (http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15490330/data/1/-/kligxm/-/Zimmerman-documents.pdf) states that a resident of RATL 'would see ZIMMERMAN drive around the neighborhood with his car lights off.'

One of the inconsistencies in Zimmerman's SPD interviews, is on whether he could see Martin in the cut-through area. In the the earliest statements he indicated he could not. In later statements he claimed that he could, and sometimes said explicitly that his headlights were on.

I'm thinking the most likely explanation for this pattern, is that Zimmerman was driving without lights. He began to claim otherwise when he realized it undermined his claim to be afraid of Martin.

On the video, I note that the camera view diagrams suggest that for a car parked in the Zimmerman space, only its left front corner would be visible to the game room camera. Next, I note that the window affording this view is almost in the opposite corner of the room from the camera, and angled away from it. Add that the cameras are low resolution to begin with, and I'm doubting that a vehicle parking in that space without lights would be detected.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 03, 2013, 12:38:41 AM
He was the first officer on scene, he drove down TTL, and the clock time of the squad car showing up in the EPH means it has to be Smith.

What does 'EPH' mean? If it is explained in the video, I missed it.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 03, 2013, 01:31:04 AM
However, it did not create plausible sync between the time Timothy Smith's squad car arrives on scene, and the time W3 reports seeing it.

When did W-3 report seeing a squad car?

On the 911 call she said she saw 'a policeman'. She didn't say anything about a car.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 03, 2013, 06:14:35 AM
7:18:00-01 W-18: "There's a man walking out with a flashlight right now."

7:18:05  W-5 relays report from W-16 of a black guy standing over the body.

7:18:18   W-6 reports a guy with a flashlight.

7:18:19   W-5 reports people coming with flashlights.

7:18:25   W-6 reports flashlights.

So is there any compelling reason to conclude that one of these guys with a flashlight was Zimmerman with his keychain light?  Thanks for the timeline. 
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 03, 2013, 06:16:51 AM
I'm thinking the most likely explanation for this pattern, is that Zimmerman was driving without lights. He began to claim otherwise when he realized it undermined his claim to be afraid of Martin.
Why would it undermine that claim?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 03, 2013, 07:48:38 AM
What does 'EPH' mean? If it is explained in the video, I missed it.
It's the security camera labeled 'East Pool Hall'. It's the one that sees the back of the mailbox area, and has the small window to the street where GZ's headlamp and Smith's roof flashers appear.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 03, 2013, 07:51:16 AM
I have mistaken you for someone else.  I am deeply sorry.  I shouldn't do something like that from memory.  I apologize.

NP Deb. Apology accepted. I was pretty sure it was an innocent mistake when you posted it. Lots of verbiage flying around. Easy to mix things up.

Be well.

w.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 03, 2013, 07:55:25 AM
NMNM:

I just looked at your pics from RATL on Flickr. The stills saying they match where GZ had Smith park in the 're-enactment' don't. Their position is too far to the East. Look carefully at the re-enactment vid. GZ is right in front of the large window.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 03, 2013, 08:03:46 AM
It's the security camera labeled 'East Pool Hall'.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 03, 2013, 10:18:53 AM
So is there any compelling reason to conclude that one of these guys with a flashlight was Zimmerman with his keychain light?   

I don't know about compelling, but whatever the reason W-6 indicated there were multiple flashlights, I agree with whonoze that it wasn't because Officer Smith was already there.

The first time W-6 said 'flashlights', plural, was 7:18:25.

Digressing for a moment, I'm not assuming these times are accurate to the second. There might be a delay between the connection time and the start of the recording, but I don't think it would be more than a few seconds for a 911 call. I don't think 911 callers get put on hold, absent major disaster.

Digressing within digression, I don't know that it has been established that time on hold creates a gap between Event Report connection time and recording start. That's another speculation. For all I know, connection time and recording start might match to the second, regardless of the type of call.

Returning to the 911 recordings (pop), if there is a gap between connection time and recording start, it might be similar for all the calls, and in any case it's in the same direction. Recording can't start before there is a connection. So I would expect the intervals to be at least a little more accurate than the absolute times.

Back to the timeline (pop).

W-6 said 'I think, there is flashlights' about 7:18:25, and 'There's two guys in the backyard, with flashlights,' about 7:18:41. I omitted the second one before, because I just wanted to mark the first time W-6 indicated multiple flashlights.

About 7:19:23 W-5 (Mary Cutcher) said 'Police are here.' She didn't say how she knew, and in my opinion Cutcher is the least reliable (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2284.msg105140.html#msg105140) of the witnesses. But this is the first indication of police on the scene.

About 7:19:29, W-18 said  'People are coming, I think, with another gentleman with a flashlight. I don't know if it's a policeman.' Around the time she finished saying that, she heard Zimmerman admit to the shooting, and passed that to the dispatcher about 7:19:36.

W-18 isn't a great witness either, but her real-time account is consistent with Zimmmerman's SPD interviews and Smith's report, and gives us a marker for when Smith contacted Zimmerman and began the process of taking him into custody. And that time is about a minute after the first time W-6 indicated multiple flashlights, and over half a minute after the second time.

The W-6 call ended about 7:19:04, so he would have been off the phone by the time Smith reached Zimmerman.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 03, 2013, 10:44:01 AM
I just looked at your pics from RATL on Flickr. The stills saying they match where GZ had Smith park in the 're-enactment' don't. Their position is too far to the East. Look carefully at the re-enactment vid. GZ is right in front of the large window.

Thanks for raising the issue. If there is an error, we want to correct it.

I think AghastInFl parked in the right space, just a bit to the left of where Smith parked. Those spaces are roomy.

Did you compare with the part of the reenactment when the camera pans left? That's closer to the angle AIF was shooting, and the big window is also out of frame.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 03, 2013, 11:04:09 AM
I don't know about compelling, but whatever the reason W-6 indicated there were multiple flashlights, I agree with whonoze that it wasn't because Officer Smith was already there.
Do we really know when the neighbors went outside?  There are both neighbors who are numbered witnesses and those who aren't, like the Asian gentleman.  Zimmerman's keychain flash might make only a tiny bit of light compared to a regular flashlight and not be noticeable from W6's upstairs window. 
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 03, 2013, 11:06:59 AM
I just looked at your pics from RATL on Flickr. The stills saying they match where GZ had Smith park in the 're-enactment' don't.

The photo descriptions don't actually say 'match'. They say the vehicle parked in the same space.

Sgt. Smith on 2/27 didn't try to exactly match the location that Zimmerman parked on 2/26. That means there is no reason to try to exactly match where Smith parked.

I know I'm being fussy, but I think the point is worth making.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 03, 2013, 11:39:27 AM
There are both neighbors who are numbered witnesses and those who aren't, like the Asian gentleman.
The Asian gentleman is W13. He's Filipino.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 03, 2013, 11:47:07 AM
Quote
I don't recall W13 mentioning that Zimmerman had a flashlight.

He didn't.

No one said he did.

If "No one said he did" means "No witness said Zimmerman had a flashlight." I agree, and that was my point. If Zimmerman had a flashlight, it's a trifle odd that no one who saw Zimmerman just after the shooting mentioned that fact, including W13.

If "No one said he did" means "No person said Zimmerman had a flashlight." Whonoze did.

If, as I think is likely, "No one said he did" means "No one said W13 mentioned Zimmerman had a flashlight." I guess I made my point too indirectly. I was drawing attention to the fact that the person who was with the supposedly flashlight-carrying Zimmerman either didn't notice or didn't thing it was worth mentioning to the police. Neither of which seems likely.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: AghastInFL on February 03, 2013, 02:06:21 PM
NMNM:

I just looked at your pics from RATL on Flickr. The stills saying they match where GZ had Smith park in the 're-enactment' don't. Their position is too far to the East. Look carefully at the re-enactment vid. GZ is right in front of the large window.
The spaces are not marked/ striped for parking there are however two signs at the eastern end of the parking area which designate the centerline of at least the first two spaces. I knew this before arrival. I was careful to first park in the second space from the E as GZ stated, I made no effort to hide or alter that view, you see what I saw.

The second photo was taken by moving the vehicle left (east) and splitting the difference between those designated spaces. I did this because it was obvious if I moved farther over I could in fact view the kiosk... that is the second view and it is directly in front of the window.
In the reenactment the officers could not park in the exact spot... I have no map for GZ exact parking orientation on the 26th... but I did what he said ("there next to that green truck"), then I tried to show a what if... what if he parked a little farther over.

Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: TalkLeft on February 03, 2013, 02:54:10 PM
w-13 took a photo of the flashlight. He took three photos, one of GZ, one of TM and one of the flashlight. It's in the 6th Supplemental discovery. released August 2012. He also said so in his March interviews.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8504/8441794991_706c9e2030_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/talkleft/8441794991/)
 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/talkleft/8441794991/)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 03, 2013, 02:59:53 PM
w-13 took a photo of the flashlight.

That's the non-working 'tactical' flashlight, yes?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 03, 2013, 06:31:04 PM
 8)
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/clubhouse-video-and-discussion/
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 04, 2013, 12:56:03 AM
8)
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/clubhouse-video-and-discussion/

I have stared at that for so long that I am seeing hubcaps and people moving around...LOL.  This is like the flashback the government promised me back in 1968.

Can you tell me what I am seeing at 7:08:52?  Is that a vehicle pulling into the clubhouse?  Or pulling past?  I swear I cannot tell.  I am trying to remember the floorplan for the clubhouse.  I saw it in the Taafe walk around the neighborhood that he did with Dave(?)  I thought as they entered the rear of the clubhouse from the pool, there was a seating area to the left and to the right was a game room then the kitchen.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: spectator on February 04, 2013, 01:46:10 AM
I contend we can definitively say that GZ did not park in front of the clubhouse where and when he said he did in the 're-enactment.' 
.

There's quite a few oddities out there that think GZ never parked at the clubhouse, but aside from the obvious, if you look at the 2 windows in the game room vid, you can clearly see them illuminate after he obviously pulls in at about 20:46.

Those 2 windows nearly double in output for about a minute or so, it is very subtle but clear as day when you look for the change(use the slider).

Aside from passing cars, the 2 windows stay consistent for the entire tape, except when GZ pulls in for that brief stay.

If you don't notice it, darken the room your in and click randomly back or forward in time on the slider, you can't miss it.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 04, 2013, 02:13:05 AM
Is there a map somewhere showing the camera locations and the directions they're pointed? I know what the east pool camera shows, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 04, 2013, 06:05:59 AM
Is there a map somewhere showing the camera locations and the directions they're pointed?
In the video that shall not be linked. Also on tchoupi's Imgur page.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 04, 2013, 07:28:16 AM
Is there a map somewhere showing the camera locations and the directions they're pointed?

In the video that shall not be linked. Also on tchoupi's Imgur page.

I don't recall the video showing a map of all the cameras, just the locations of a few selected ones. Maybe it went by fast.

The link to the video that I posted in the 'Timelines' thread is still there. I suggested Jeralyn remove it, but she has seen fit to leave it be so far.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 07:34:55 AM
I have stared at that for so long that I am seeing hubcaps and people moving around...LOL.  This is like the flashback the government promised me back in 1968.

Can you tell me what I am seeing at 7:08:52?  Is that a vehicle pulling into the clubhouse?  Or pulling past?  I swear I cannot tell.  I am trying to remember the floorplan for the clubhouse.  I saw it in the Taafe walk around the neighborhood that he did with Dave(?)  I thought as they entered the rear of the clubhouse from the pool, there was a seating area to the left and to the right was a game room then the kitchen.

The impression I have is that it's a vehicle actually pulling out from in front of the clubhouse. It's the only one that passes in front of the clubhouse traveling East to West where the headlights shine into the clubhouse, illuminating the bushes and frames of the windows, then moves to the street.

I'm updating that blog of mine as time goes on. I added some screenshots of the angles of the cameras.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 10:33:55 AM
Here's a quick demonstration of what I believe I'm seeing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAQz5DwhySo

More here:
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/clubhouse-video-and-discussion/
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 04, 2013, 10:49:49 AM
The impression I have is that it's a vehicle actually pulling out from in front of the clubhouse. It's the only one that passes in front of the clubhouse traveling East to West where the headlights shine into the clubhouse, illuminating the bushes and frames of the windows, then moves to the street.

I'm updating that blog of mine as time goes on. I added some screenshots of the angles of the cameras.

Those screen shots are very helpful.  And the video with varying speeds.  ((MUAH))

I see what you are saying about it pulling out while I thought it was pulling in but then I have to question if he was traveling without his lights on when pulling into the space.  That opens up a whole nuther can of worms, IMO. 

I am getting Marty Feldman eyes. 
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 04, 2013, 10:53:17 AM
Here's a quick demonstration of what I believe I'm seeing.

Do you think that light event could be Zimmerman, leaving the clubhouse over half a minute before the NEN call connected?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: FromBelow on February 04, 2013, 11:08:29 AM
Do you think that light event could be Zimmerman, leaving the clubhouse over half a minute before the NEN call connected?

I've considered the possibility that this was when GZ pulled out from the CH. That TM had 'skipped' past him to the East and then South onto TTL and that GZ had lost sight of him. So he pulled out to follow and try and get a line of sight on him again. It also matches what GZ said in the re-enactment while parked at the CH.

1:34:25- Okay [turns in seat]. These assholes, they always get away. Yep [power window switch or gear
shift and four footsteps/fade]

Maybe it's a different vehicle pulling out from the CH a couple minutes (didn't do the math) prior to GZ parking there?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 04, 2013, 11:19:40 AM
There's quite a few oddities out there that think GZ never parked at the clubhouse, but aside from the obvious, if you look at the 2 windows in the game room vid, you can clearly see them illuminate after he obviously pulls in at about 20:46.

Here's a quick demonstration of what I believe I'm seeing.

Are these posts referencing the same event?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 04, 2013, 11:34:49 AM
Maybe it's a different vehicle pulling out from the CH a couple minutes (didn't do the math) prior to GZ parking there?

The math is what I said. DiwataMan's video has the truck backing out of the clubhouse at 7:08:48, and driving east on RVC at 7:08:53.

The NEN call connected at 7:09:34.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: leftwig on February 04, 2013, 12:07:15 PM
I'm not sure exactly what I see in those videos, but I can certainly believe from the content of the NEN call that GZ wasn't parked at the clubhouse when the call connected.  I don't know if he pulled over and dialed a few times, or got a busy signal, or maybe waited to see TM come and pass by before deciding to call.   I'm not sure what to make of the light movement captured after he leaves the kiosk.  IF we can assume his was the only vehicle on TTL at this time, then it sure looks like he did a u-turn.  I'm not sure why he'd do a u-turn if he had a visual of TM out in front of him.  I guess its possible he stopped at the mail kiosk because he saw TM, got a good visual then decided to move on down TTL and turn around to observe him.  That doesn't seem to fit Dee Dee's narrative of GZ trailing behind TM in his car as he left the mail kiosk or the description GZ gave during the walk thru.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: FromBelow on February 04, 2013, 12:17:25 PM
Couldn't the bright light be GZ turning into a parking space with the lights momentarily pointed directly at the window and the lesser light be a reflection off of CH when he finished parking? If we reverse the movement of the car, with it finally parked with the head lights not shining directly into the window, it seems to me like it would look the same.

And what's that at 22:26 in upper left of Diwataman's composite video. Right after GZ says he's coming towards him.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 04, 2013, 12:18:01 PM
The math is what I said. DiwataMan's video has the truck backing out of the clubhouse at 7:08:48, and driving east on RVC at 7:08:53.

The NEN call connected at 7:09:34.
Actually, it is just a vehicle.  There is no determining factor that points to that being the truck.  ((And yes, you would point that out to me if I said that...LOL))

I see on the East Pool Cam at 7:11 approx. where I think it is a vehicle pulling over to the north side of the curb on TTL.  It doesn't pass behind the street light where TTL bends to the south.  That time wouldn't jive 7:08 either but would be closer in alignment to the NEN.

Could be this is part of the reason, LE couldn't use these videos for any conclusive truth of where GZ was in his truck?  Got to admit, I do love sleuthing these videos though.  I think I am just a little odd.  And now a wee bit cross-eyed.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 04, 2013, 12:43:34 PM
Actually, it is just a vehicle.  There is no determining factor that points to that being the truck. 

I didn't say 'the truck'. I said 'DiwataMan's video has the truck backing out . . .', meaning the truck in the video.

ETA: I meant this video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAQz5DwhySo)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 04, 2013, 01:09:25 PM
The math is what I said. DiwataMan's video has the truck backing out of the clubhouse at 7:08:48, and driving east on RVC at 7:08:53.

The NEN call connected at 7:09:34.

Is the video timing supposed to be exactly 18 minutes off, or is that an approximate error?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 01:37:24 PM
In my opinion the 18 minute adjustment in near exact to the second. That's why I put a few events in the video to see how well they match. The calls were placed at the exact time they say on the event reports.

31:25 (7:19:36) W18 Saying she hears George say he shot the person, this is George telling Smith that.
34:45 (7:22:56) GSW Is unresponsive
41:32 (7:29:43) Asks for how much time CPR has transpired
42:18 (7:30:29) Confirmed Signal 07

I find the event at 31:25 particularly compelling because W18 calls it perfectly, then Smith calls in the radio he has George at gunpoint, then the call taker says to W18 Smith has George at gunpoint. There's more I could do but I think what I have should suffice.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 04, 2013, 01:44:26 PM
One thing we can perhaps agree on: DeeDee and Zimmerman cannot both be telling the truth.*

If Trayvon was under the RATL mail awning at 6:54, then GZ did not see him in Taaffe's yard, and he did not pass GZ near the clubhouse. Conversely, if GZ's version is correct, TM was not under the mail awning at 6:54.

I hope there is GPS data from Trayvon's phone for 2/26. I know nothing about cell phones or GPS. I have read posts that suggest there may not have been any data recorded for that day if the phone died before midnight. Other posts have disagreed on the accuracy of GPS location data - anywhere from 2 meters to 100 meters.

If there is reasonably accurate GPS location data, that will go a long way towards resolving the questions arising here. So I hope there is, and it gets disclosed.

I also hope Judge Nelson orders ABC to release any recordings it has of DeeDee's interview with Attny. Crump, as i am positive Matt Gutman made an intelligible audio recording of it using a professional telephone tap, independent of Crump's little personal voice recorder. I doubt anything on it is earthshaking, and if it has any effect at all it might be an aid to either side (or perhaps both in different ways). I just want to be able to hear it and judge for myself.

* (I do not aver here that either party  is 'lying,' as I take that to mean the deliberate and knowing utterance of falsehoods, and it's possible both DeeDee and GZ may believe their own statements...)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 04, 2013, 01:49:03 PM
In my opinion the 18 minute adjustment in near exact to the second.

Then how do you account for 'the W3 problem'? (With an 18 minute offset, W3 says "I see a police officer now" before Smith's car could possibly have been in her line of sight.)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 02:00:35 PM
Then how do you account for 'the W3 problem'? (With an 18 minute offset, W3 says "I see a police officer now" before Smith's car could possibly have been in her line of sight.)

Right around that same time W18 says "there's a man coming out, there's people coming out with flashlights" 29:36 - 29:45. I'm guessing W3 took W13 for a police office given he had a flashlight.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 04, 2013, 02:25:34 PM
Right around that same time W18 says "there's a man coming out, there's people coming out with flashlights" 29:36 - 29:45. I'm guessing W3 took W13 for a police office given he had a flashlight.

As much as I hate to take whonoze side on this (sorry about that, whonoze), W3 was concerned that the police officer was behind the houses, yet W13's house is east of the dog walk, so W3 wouldn't see him until he was moving in the right direction toward  the scene of the shooting.

To put it another way, with the relative locations of W3's and W13's houses, I don't think W3 would ever see W13 in a position that she would describe as "behind the houses."
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 04, 2013, 02:41:50 PM
I see DiwataMan has some very informative diagrams of the camera locations on his clubhouse video blog (http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/clubhouse-video-and-discussion/).
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 02:43:00 PM
As much as I hate to take whonoze side on this (sorry about that, whonoze), W3 was concerned that the police officer was behind the houses, yet W13's house is east of the dog walk, so W3 wouldn't see him until he was moving in the right direction toward  the scene of the shooting.

To put it another way, with the relative locations of W3's and W13's houses, I don't think W3 would ever see W13 in a position that she would describe as "behind the houses."

She's telling the dispatcher where the shooting happened at that point in the call. Have you looked at the blog? I'll make the point even stronger if need be but like I said, what I have ought to be enough. Negating everything else because W3 happened to say "police" would be folly I would think.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 04, 2013, 03:07:00 PM
Negating everything else because W3 happened to say "police" would be folly I would think.

Always a shame when a beautiful theory is murdered by an ugly little fact.

911 call
Quote
Dispatcher: OK, and, do you, you see the officer?
W-3: Yeah, but, like, he, in, it's behind the houses. It's like five or, it's, it's not the front entrance. It's like, oh my God!
Dispatcher: Near what? Tell me, so I can tell them.
W-3: Like, if you're looking at my house, [redacted], it's behind, it's like, by my, my back porch.

To me it sounds like W-3 was upset because the trouble was behind her house and the officer was in front of it.

FDLE interview, 3/19/12
Quote
Batchelor: After you heard the gunshot, did you look back out the window?
W-3: I stayed in the other rooms until the police were there.

W-3 couldn't see W-13 if she didn't look out her back window.

If W-3 didn't look out her back window until she knew police were there, then the officer she mentioned seeing on the 911 call must have been visible through her front window.

Maybe she mistook someone or something else for a police officer. I don't think it was W-13.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 03:16:11 PM
Always a shame when a beautiful theory is murdered by an ugly little fact.

911 call
To me it sounds like W-3 was upset because the trouble was behind her house and the officer was in front of it.

FDLE interview, 3/19/12
W-3 couldn't see W-13 if she didn't look out her back window.

If W-3 didn't look out her back window until she knew police were there, then the officer she mentioned seeing on the 911 call must have been visible through her front window.

Maybe she mistook someone or something else for a police officer. I don't think it was W-13.

Okay so then at 29:36 (7:17:46) when W3 says “I see a police right now” she's talking about something else other than what's behind her house. Which may in fact be police. I don't see how that's a problem for anything else though.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: Cylinder on February 04, 2013, 03:40:14 PM
There may be two sources of confusion here. At almost the same time that W13 was being misidentified as a police officer, Ofc. Smith was near the scene and trying to find (http://www.axiomamnesia.com/Audio/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-Sanford-Dispatch-Audio/Dispatch-Audio-20120571671_11A_1/George-Zimmerman-Trayvon-Martin-Evidence-Police-Dispatch-Audio-11A_7.mp3) the exact location via the dispatcher. Since the addresses are redacted from the radio traffic, we don't exactly know where he was located at that point.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 03:53:32 PM
There may be two sources of confusion here. At almost the same time that W13 was being misidentified as a police officer, Ofc. Smith was near the scene and trying to find (http://www.axiomamnesia.com/Audio/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-Sanford-Dispatch-Audio/Dispatch-Audio-20120571671_11A_1/George-Zimmerman-Trayvon-Martin-Evidence-Police-Dispatch-Audio-11A_7.mp3) the exact location via the dispatcher. Since the addresses are redacted from the radio traffic, we don't exactly know where he was located at that point.

Who is confused? If W3 is looking out her front window who knows what she's really seeing. Could just be lights coming in the front entrance, a car, who knows, but what I do know is that it doesn't effect the 18 minute thing no matter which way one looks at it.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: Cylinder on February 04, 2013, 04:04:18 PM
Who is confused? If W3 is looking out her front window who knows what she's really seeing. Could just be lights coming in the front entrance, a car, who knows, but what I don know is that it doesn't effect the 18 minute thing no matter which way one looks at it.

I agree. I was addressing the who could see what bit. Some of them misidentified W13 as LEO. Some of them could have seen Ofc. Smith, his car or even his lights. The point is that there was some delay in Smith's arrival and the time in which he made it to the actual scene.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 04, 2013, 04:09:27 PM
If Officer Smith was in his car on TTL, and got word that there was a disturbance behind the row of buildings, why wouldn't he get out of the car and investigate from the TTL side? Why would he drive around to RVC?

To be clear, I'm not arguing for any conclusion at the moment. I'm just poking at the puzzle pieces. Something doesn't fit.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 04, 2013, 04:10:21 PM
Some of them misidentified W13 as LEO.

Which ones?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 04:13:30 PM
I agree. I was addressing the who could see what bit. Some of them misidentified W13 as LEO. Some of them could have seen Ofc. Smith, his car or even his lights. The point is that there was some delay in Smith's arrival and the time in which he made it to the actual scene.

I agree there was a delay from when Smith reached the Retreat at Twin Lakes to when he had George at gunpoint. I'm guessing a bit over two minutes.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 04:19:23 PM
If Officer Smith was in his car on TTL, and got word that there was a disturbance behind the row of buildings, why wouldn't he get out of the car and investigate from the TTL side? Why would he drive around to RVC?

To be clear, I'm not arguing for any conclusion at the moment. I'm just poking at the puzzle pieces. Something doesn't fit.

I think it's an assumption that W3 sees Smith, the man himself, at 7:17:46. Could it not be police lights she sees reflecting off buildings? Is she upstairs? Can she see Smith's car heading in through the front gate? Can she see it heading East down Retreat View Circle?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 04, 2013, 04:40:07 PM
None of the witnesses mistake W13 for a police officer. When they see W13's flashlight they say something like "I don't know if that's a police officer." They're expecting an officer to arrive because they've called 911, and they've told an officer is on the way, or already in the area.

In contrast, W3 is sure "I see a police officer now." Her front window has a view down the E-W leg of TTL and just a bit around the corner towards the mailboxes. Unless T. Smith is lying, she has to have seen his vehicle, because according to his report he didn't get out of his car until he parked on RVC. It's possible she could have seen reflections of the light flashers a few seconds before seeing the car itself, but not a minute and a half earlier.

I think the reason Smith didn't get out of his car and go around back from TTL is that the communication system between 911 and the officer in the field has a significant time lag. Multiple 911 call-takers are entering data in shorthand at the same time. That can't go directly to the field; it would be too confusing. So it all must appear, in that shorthand text form, on the screen of the actual dispatcher, who has to parse it, make a decision about what to tell the officer to do, and then relay instructions. The woman taking W3's calls was also disturbingly dense (or possibly baked, based on the way she spoke...). So i don't think Smith got the message to go to the backyard until AFTER he exited his car on RVC and was looking for the cause of the commotion on foot — otherwise he wouldn't have parked in front of W19's but would have driven up closer to the cut-through sidewalk.

@MJW: Don't worry, you're not taking 'my side' by concluding I got some of the facts right. DiwataMan gets some of the facts right, and we're hardly on the same 'side'.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 05:03:00 PM
None of the witnesses mistake W13 for a police officer. When they see W13's flashlight they say something like "I don't know if that's a police officer." They're expecting an officer to arrive because they've called 911, and they've told an officer is on the way, or already in the area.

In contrast, W3 is sure "I see a police officer now." Her front window has a view down the E-W leg of TTL and just a bit around the corner towards the mailboxes. Unless T. Smith is lying, she has to have seen his vehicle, because according to his report he didn't get out of his car until he parked on RVC. It's possible she could have seen reflections of the light flashers a few seconds before seeing the car itself, but not a minute and a half earlier.

I think the reason Smith didn't get out of his car and go around back from TTL is that the communication system between 911 and the officer in the field has a significant time lag. Multiple 911 call-takers are entering data in shorthand at the same time. That can't go directly to the field; it would be too confusing. So it all must appear, in that shorthand text form, on the screen of the actual dispatcher, who has to parse it, make a decision about what to tell the officer to do, and then relay instructions. The woman taking W3's calls was also disturbingly dense (or possibly baked, based on the way she spoke...). So i don't think Smith got the message to go to the backyard until AFTER he exited his car on RVC and was looking for the cause of the commotion on foot — otherwise he wouldn't have parked in front of W19's but would have driven up closer to the cut-through sidewalk.

@MJW: Don't worry, you're not taking 'my side' by concluding I got some of the facts right. DiwataMan gets some of the facts right, and we're hardly on the same 'side'.

Yeah but what is your point? We don't know what W3 sees. She's upstairs and unless you have been in the same room she was you have no idea what she can see. She thinks they were 5 seconds too late, right after the gunshot, but we know that's not true.

7:16:56 Gunshot
7:19:43 (Event Report) 1 At Gunpoint

7:16:41 (ER#1671) Witness 3 911 Call
29:36 (7:17:46) W3 says “I see a police right now”
29:36 (7:17:46) W18 says “oh my god I see the person right now. I see him like walking.”
29:42 (7:17:52) W18 says “There’s a man coming out, there’s people coming out with flashlights.”
29:49 (7:17:59) W18 says “There’s a man walking out with a flashlight right now.”
30:01 (7:18:11) W18 says “The man is up right now. Someone’s coming over.”
30:09 (7:18:19) W5 says “Now there’s people coming with flashlights.”
7:19:43 (Event Report) 1 At Gunpoint
7:19:51 W3 Says “And the guy, the guy on top had a white T-Shirt.”
7:20:06 Dispatcher says “Do you see what kind of pants?”
7:20:08 W3 says “No”
7:20:20 (Event Report) Complainant ADVD “Said guy was on top wearing a whitshirt/unknown pants”

Given that everything shows the accuracy of the 18 minute thing I see no problem here with W3.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: unitron on February 04, 2013, 05:27:19 PM
In my opinion the 18 minute adjustment in near exact to the second. That's why I put a few events in the video to see how well they match. The calls were placed at the exact time they say on the event reports.

31:25 (7:19:36) W18 Saying she hears George say he shot the person, this is George telling Smith that.
34:45 (7:22:56) GSW Is unresponsive
41:32 (7:29:43) Asks for how much time CPR has transpired
42:18 (7:30:29) Confirmed Signal 07

I find the event at 31:25 particularly compelling because W18 calls it perfectly, then Smith calls in the radio he has George at gunpoint, then the call taker says to W18 Smith has George at gunpoint. There's more I could do but I think what I have should suffice.

I'm confused.

All of that happened after the first officer on the scene showed up where the body was (which was not the same as the time when he first entered the neighborhood) and it all happened where the body was, none of which would have been seen by any of the clubhouse cameras.

Wouldn't the only way to assign the real time to the clubhouse cameras be from the flashing gumball machine lights of the first police car to come in the front gate?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 04, 2013, 05:29:31 PM
I'm confused.

All of that happened after the first officer on the scene showed up where the body was (which was not the same as the time when he first entered the neighborhood) and it all happened where the body was, none of which would have been seen by any of the clubhouse cameras.

Wouldn't the only way to assign the real time to the clubhouse cameras be from the flashing gumball machine lights of the first police car to come in the front gate?

An investigator accounted for the time. The rest of what I'm talking about is either on previous comments I've made here or on my blog:
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/clubhouse-video-and-discussion/
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: leftwig on February 04, 2013, 08:13:30 PM
One thing we can perhaps agree on: DeeDee and Zimmerman cannot both be telling the truth.*

If Trayvon was under the RATL mail awning at 6:54, then GZ did not see him in Taaffe's yard, and he did not pass GZ near the clubhouse. Conversely, if GZ's version is correct, TM was not under the mail awning at 6:54.

* (I do not aver here that either party  is 'lying,' as I take that to mean the deliberate and knowing utterance of falsehoods, and it's possible both DeeDee and GZ may believe their own statements...)

Maybe, maybe not.  TM could have been under the mail kiosk at 6:54 and after a few minutes went walking elsewhere.  Dee Dee doesn't detail anything he did from the time he came into the complex around 6:54 until he see's GZ watching him. 

We do know that Dee Dee is certainly off in her timing.  Her last call begins after 7:12 according to the phone records and she says it started just after TM left the mail kiosk and has GZ trailing TM in his car.  On the NEN, TM takes off running/skipping around 7:11:40.

Like you, I don't know that either Dee Dee or GZ are relaying information they know to be false.  Expecting them to remember exact timings and sequence of details is unrealistic.

Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: TalkLeft on February 05, 2013, 12:42:22 AM
(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/second911callstarts_zps9fdaabd2.jpg)

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/911secondgunshot_zpsdf0eeda2.jpg)

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/911policearrive_zpsb1734994.jpg)

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/911wronglocaton_zpsa3977986.jpg)

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/911disptocops_zpsde0a5944.jpg)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: TalkLeft on February 05, 2013, 12:45:05 AM
(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/second911nosee_zps5e878827.jpg)

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/second911hurry_zpsf0581810.jpg)

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/second911copsthere_zps5a768286.jpg)

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/second911calledwhite_zps3a94dad0.jpg)

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/second911norace_zps86788f30.jpg)

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/secondcallends_zpsec32b365.jpg)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 05, 2013, 06:42:18 AM

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/zimmerman/second911copsthere_zps5a768286.jpg)

W-3 said that in response to the dispatcher saying 'we do have several officers there, and one officer is there'. I don't see any reason to think it was based on a personal observation, or that W-3 was looking out her back window at that point.

In her FDLE interview, W-3 said that she didn't look out her back window until after the police arrived. I think she would have waited until she felt the scene was secure, not that she rushed to her back window as soon as she thought she saw the policeman.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: TalkLeft on February 06, 2013, 12:05:25 AM
Diwataman has a new post up on his blog (http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/clubhouse-video-and-discussion/#more-3427) on the clubhouse videos with excellent pictures.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 06, 2013, 02:48:39 AM
Diwataman has a new post up on his blog (http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/clubhouse-video-and-discussion/#more-3427) on the clubhouse videos with excellent pictures.

I'm probably being dense, but I still don't understand DiwataMan's basis for saying the 18 minute correction is accurate. I don't see anything visually in the the clubhouse video that's precisely related to an event in the audio.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 06, 2013, 07:02:46 AM
I am even denser than MJW.  What probative conclusions can be drawn about the Martin Zimmerman case from these videos?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 06, 2013, 08:54:33 AM
I'm probably being dense, but I still don't understand DiwataMan's basis for saying the 18 minute correction is accurate. I don't see anything visually in the the clubhouse video that's precisely related to an event in the audio.

The basis is actually the timestamp, that's what you have to look at. I'm not sure how else to explain it other than I have on my blog. If the 18 minute correction were off then the information provided from 911 calls, event reports and radio transmissions would all be out of sync with the timestamp but they're not, as a matter of fact they align nearly perfectly. Don't get me wrong though. I'm willing to say there is still some room for error but how much would it be? +-30? Just guessing. I don't think it's that much.

I'm not sure how else to explain that might help folks. Perhaps just pick from the things I've listed on the blog and find which makes the most sense to you. Let's try this one.

35:35 (7:23:52) (Event Report/Radio Transmission) Chest wound/Unresp male/Starting CPR Per SO2023
42:18 (7:30:34) (Event Report/Radio Transmission) Confirmed Signal 07

Both in the Event Report and the Radio Transmission we are given the time CPR was started and ended. The original timestamp in the video starts at 6:30. Looking at the original timestamp for the time CPR was started it is 7:05:52. 7:05 + 18 = 7:23. At 7:12:34 of the original timestamp there is a radio transmission and time given for time of death. 7:12:34 + 18 = 7:30:34.

If the timestamp that I have added which accounts for exactly 18 minutes is off then that timestamp would say something else other than 7:23 and 7:30 for those events. But they don't. I hope that helps. :)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 06, 2013, 09:36:49 AM
If the 18 minute correction were off then the information provided from 911 calls, event reports and radio transmissions would all be out of sync with the timestamp...

Not so for the 911 calls. They are fixed on the clock. I don't know about event reports and radio transmissions, but I assume they are fixed on the clock as well. All the 911 call events in the BCCliist video are at the same time as you have them.

The issue is the sync between the camera videoas a whole and the audio events as a whole. The only way to establish that is by comparing something that happens in the video to something matching in the audio. If you know of something other than W3's remarks that do so, do let us know.

MJW: you're not being dense, just honest.

RickeyJim: The value of the security videos is less in the camera images alone, and more in the combination of the camera images and the audio, especially GZ's NEN call.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 06, 2013, 09:41:13 AM
The value of the security videos is less in the camera images alone, and more in the combination of the camera images and the audio, especially GZ's NEN call.
So combining the video and audio, your conclusions with degree of certainty are ......
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 06, 2013, 09:54:52 AM
Not so for the 911 calls. They are fixed on the clock. I don't know about event reports and radio transmissions, but I assume they are fixed on the clock as well. All the 911 call events in the BCCliist video are at the same time as you have them.

The issue is the sync between the camera videoas a whole and the audio events as a whole. The only way to establish that is by comparing something that happens in the video to something matching in the audio. If you know of something other than W3's remarks that do so, do let us know.

MJW: you're not being dense, just honest.

RickeyJim: The value of the security videos is less in the camera images alone, and more in the combination of the camera images and the audio, especially GZ's NEN call.

You know going over this again made me realize you may be right in a sense. I think my method is flawed or I'm just explaining it wrong, a bit of both I think.

I think you are and other are right that it would have to be something seen in the video.

Now I have to go back to the drawing board. :o
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 06, 2013, 10:45:44 AM
Okay so one thing we know for sure is that Smith said in his report that he arrived at 2821 Retreat View Circle, canvassed the area, walked between the buildings and found George. However we don't know for sure what entrance he came in or what street(s) he took when he entered. We also don't know what buildings he walked in between. Is that right so far?

I also looked back through the comments and couldn't find where whonoze believes Smith drives down Twin Trees. I'm thinking he's thinking it's the vehicle at 31:00 of my video. Is that right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtSkAEfza40
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: TalkLeft on February 06, 2013, 12:32:17 PM
the radio transmissions might provide some clues. Here is Diwataman's You Tube of them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqgVup7Qqn4&feature=player_embedded#!).

1:25 dispatch people screaming and gunshot
1:48 right outside
1:56 he’s out front, no one’s out here
2:05 she’s saying its behind that location
2:16 we’ve got 2 calls, just got a third and 4th

It's at 4:07 seconds in when Smith tells Cresswe he needs somebody, he's got 1 down with a gunshot wound and 1 secured.
where you at
I'm on Retreat View
which complex is this
where's your car
I'm behind the address on Retreat View
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 06, 2013, 12:52:29 PM
Okay so one thing we know for sure is that Smith said in his report that he arrived at 2821 Retreat View Circle, canvassed the area, walked between the buildings and found George. However we don't know for sure what entrance he came in or what street(s) he took when he entered. We also don't know what buildings he walked in between. Is that right so far?

I also looked back through the comments and couldn't find where whonoze believes Smith drives down Twin Trees. I'm thinking he's thinking it's the vehicle at 31:00 of my video. Is that right?

Yeah, I think it's your 31:00. It looks a little different in your video than in the AVIs you had posted.

As for Smith's walking path: W18 sees him as he turns from RVC onto the cut-through sidewalk. She drew his path on her sketch. So he didn't cut-through the buildings in the sense of walking through the grassy gaps.

We concluded the squad car on TTL had to be Smith, after coming through the North entrance, just because he was first on the scene, and the timing is right for him to be seen by the EPH, drive around a bit, then walk a bit, and arrive at the actual scene at the point where W18 sees him. It can't be Ayala's car, because by the time he got there he had a better idea where to go. So if that had been his car in the EPH, then Smith would have already been there, somewhere else, and both Smith and Ayala would have made it to the dog walk well before any of the witnesses see a police officer in the back. W18 sees him first because she can see down the cut-through sidewalk toward RVC from her unit, whereas John and Selma cannot from theirs.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 06, 2013, 01:31:21 PM
W18 sees him first because she can see down the cut-through sidewalk toward RVC from her unit, whereas John and Selma cannot from theirs.

Cutcher said 'Police are here,' about 6 seconds before W-18 started to talk about the person we think is Smith.

Just a data point.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 06, 2013, 02:18:27 PM
Yeah, I think it's your 31:00. It looks a little different in your video than in the AVIs you had posted.

As for Smith's walking path: W18 sees him as he turns from RVC onto the cut-through sidewalk. She drew his path on her sketch. So he didn't cut-through the buildings in the sense of walking through the grassy gaps.

We concluded the squad car on TTL had to be Smith, after coming through the North entrance, just because he was first on the scene, and the timing is right for him to be seen by the EPH, drive around a bit, then walk a bit, and arrive at the actual scene at the point where W18 sees him. It can't be Ayala's car, because by the time he got there he had a better idea where to go. So if that had been his car in the EPH, then Smith would have already been there, somewhere else, and both Smith and Ayala would have made it to the dog walk well before any of the witnesses see a police officer in the back. W18 sees him first because she can see down the cut-through sidewalk toward RVC from her unit, whereas John and Selma cannot from theirs.

You're assuming that's a police car. I agree it's more than likely that Smith entered the North gate although we can't say with absolute certainty. We still have nothing definitive to say if Smith went past the clubhouse then made the left or if he made the immediate left on RVC after entering.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 06, 2013, 02:57:18 PM
Cutcher said 'Police are here,' about 6 seconds before W-18 started to talk about the person we think is Smith.
Just a data point.
Mary was not looking out the window, but relaying things Selma was trying to tell her from some distance. The dialogue between the two resulted in Mary reported a variety of things that were incorrect — e.g. that the person who survived the gunshot was black. I haven't double-checked the timing or context of the remark you note, but if Mary said anything about the police before W18 spotted Smith, I would guess she/Selma had mistaken W13 for an officer. Either that or she saw Smith's lights flashing in front of their home, since Smith parked only one door to the South or Cutcher and Mora's unit.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 06, 2013, 06:01:32 PM
If Smith were on TTL, and the dispatcher told him the incident was behind the houses, why would he drive to RVC and then walk through the buildings on RVC to get to the back of the house? Why not stop on TTL and walk through the buildings on TTL?

I also sort of wonder about W3's comment that she see's a police officer. It's possible she was referring to someone in a police car, but I think she'd more likely say she saw a police car. I'm pretty sure that's what I'd say.

Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 06, 2013, 06:28:12 PM
I haven't double-checked the timing or context of the remark you note, but if Mary said anything about the police before W18 spotted Smith, I would guess she/Selma had mistaken W13 for an officer. Either that or she saw Smith's lights flashing in front of their home, since Smith parked only one door to the South or Cutcher and Mora's unit.

I think the latter is most likely.

The possibility that Cutcher could see out a front window at any point hadn't crossed my mind. I don't think she ever mentioned that in her statements. But since you brought it up, I think it is the most likely explanation.

Cutcher's statement about the police really has no context. She just said it out of the blue, without preliminary or explanation. She doesn't seem to be relaying something told her by Mora, as I agree she does at other times. There is no doubt in her voice or her wording, which to me suggests she was seeing unmistakeable police car lights or markings, not interpreting something doubtful in the darkened backyard. She might have seen the lights flashing on a wall, without actually looking out a front window.

The short time between Cutcher's statement and W-18's observation of Smith approaching, suggests to me that Cutcher didn't see the police car arrive. She must have become aware of it as she walked from room to room.





Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 07, 2013, 09:24:06 AM
@ DiwataMan:

I re-post here a comment for you from Amsterdam, posted to the whonoze blog with a request i pass it along here:

---
I don’t have a user id on Talk Left and registration has been disabled. But I’ve been reading the clubhouse comments and Diawataman is missing some information.

In Smith’s narrative in the policereport, he writes that after he arrived at the complex, he was dispatched to w3′s address on TTL. You can find that dispatch information in the 911 logs in the 7th supp. in the log that was opened for W3. Before he got out of the car he was dispatched to W19′s address on RVC. The dispatch and arrival times coincide with the time W3 says she can see an officer now. W3 had moved from the upstairs room in the back of her house to the upstairs room in the front, facing TTL to call 911.

We had an extensive discussion after we found the report stating that the video was 18 min off. We tried the 6:48 time, but everything seemed out of synch.
We then went back to the 911 logs and the police report to find information about Ayala and Raimondo. Ayala responded to w19′s address on RVC and parked his car next to Smith’s. He has a new dispatch time once he arrived at the complex, he fails to report an arrival time.

Raimondo also is dispatched to a specific address once he arrives at the complex, he asks Smith whether he should turn right or left at the front gate. Smith tells him to go left.

Raimondo’s information had the least ambiguities. His car would’ve been the second car after the car we thought belonged to Smith. Working back from those headlights arriving at the front gate we had a video start time of 6:46:40. That start time put Smith’s car just out of W3′s line of vision when she told 911 she could see the police. We adjusted 4 sec to 6:46:36.

You can find the new dispatch times for Ayala and Raimondo. If you check the video Smith was driving where you would expect him, you will see the headlights of a car arriving at the front gate when Ayala should have been there, and you see the headlights of a car at the front gate when Raimondo should have been at the front gate.

The bonus we got when we tried this start time was W18 saying I can hear the sirens just as the EMV’s are seen near the front gate. After they turn left on RVC and are passing W18′s RVC address, she states that the EMV’s are in front of her house now.

We got the time right on those videos. You move it 20 sec and lights are out of synch. We may be off 4, 5 seconds tops.

---
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 07, 2013, 10:16:34 AM
whonoze, I've already included much of the information on my blog. I'll be including and editing more as I revisit it. It's just tedious is all and in the end really doesn't amount to anything like I said at the beginning of all of this on here, like I also said many months ago elsewhere. I'm sure if I went and looked at whoever that is and their site they'll have plenty of things "missing". Or is that just coming off a comment on your site or something? Doesn't matter but yes I'll include more of what you have in that comment if it makes you all happy.  :P
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 07, 2013, 10:41:36 AM
is that just coming off a comment on your site or something?

Yes. Amsterdam wanted to post it here, but isn't registered.

I relayed because you seem unconvinced Smith went down TTL, and there is apparently official documentation that he did, beyond the visual evidence.

I certainly don't expect you to make me happy DM, but you had expressed some interest in revisiitng the audio/video sync question, and the post supports the 16:34 figure as opposed to 18:00.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 07, 2013, 11:05:05 AM
I certainly don't expect you to make me happy DM,
I don't expect either of you to make me happy by answering the question I keep asking about the videos:  Who cares, and why?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 07, 2013, 11:31:02 AM
Yes. Amsterdam wanted to post it here, but isn't registered.

I relayed because you seem unconvinced Smith went down TTL, and there is apparently official documentation that he did, beyond the visual evidence.

I certainly don't expect you to make me happy DM, but you had expressed some interest in revisiitng the audio/video sync question, and the post supports the 16:34 figure as opposed to 18:00.

I'll just save myself the trouble and screencap the reports and such into the blog. I didn't express interest. Just when I thought I was out but they pulled me back in! ::) And no, I'm not convince that is Smith driving down Twin Trees but it could be.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 07, 2013, 12:57:06 PM
I don't expect either of you to make me happy by answering the question I keep asking about the videos:  Who cares, and why?

Because they are evidence.

I don't know much about them. I feel, rightly or wrongly, that this is a significant gap in my knowledge of the case. Maybe they will ultimately be of no significance. I feel I need to know more about them before making such a conclusion.

I was surprised to find that one of the cameras has a view of the mail shade. I guess I assumed this would be big news if it were true. So when I've seen it mentioned a couple of times, I thought the person was mistaken or joking.

The view of the mail shade refutes a subset of timeline/route theories, which had Martin, after passing Zimmerman at the clubhouse, walk down the sidewalk by the clubhouse and enter the mail shade from the clubhouse side.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 07, 2013, 02:38:30 PM
Is there documentation in the discovery or elsewhere on whether Timothy Smith approached with lights, or lights and siren?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 07, 2013, 04:04:21 PM
Because they are evidence.
We are really starved for some good evidence, aren't we? - like a GPS account where M&Z were during their calls or a competent investigator interview of W#6.  If Matt Gutman actually did one, it would probably be better than what we have so far.  As far as the clubhouse videos, I think the pool one might have something useful to tell us about the rain that evening.  Has anybody checked if it started to rain harder right after Zimmerman finished his NEN call?  This relates to a possible justification for not waiting on RVC for the cops and heading back towards TTL and his truck.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 07, 2013, 04:10:21 PM
We are really starved for some good evidence, aren't we? - like a GPS account where M&Z were during their calls or a competent investigator interview of W#6.

How was Batchelor's interview incompetent?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 07, 2013, 04:33:28 PM
How was Batchelor's interview incompetent?
Meant W#8.  My apologies to Mr. Batchelor, who did the best interviews in the case I have heard.  :-[
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 07, 2013, 06:00:08 PM
Oh god yes rickyjim we are most certainly well beyond past needing some new evidence absolutely no doubt about it. To me it's like getting worse. Just when you think we're going to get some answers about the phone stuff we get more questions! :o >:(

Batchelor is the best! ;D Hell yeah, man he should have done all the interviews. I couldn't imagine him with W8 though, I think he'd break, lol :'( Not only that but we wouldn't have gotten to hear all those nice leading questions and statements by Bernie. ::)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 07, 2013, 06:52:17 PM
Has anybody checked if it started to rain harder right after Zimmerman finished his NEN call?

FYI: here is the wind and rain data for 2/26/12 for the Ravena Park weather station, the measuring point closest to RATL. (I noticed DM had posted data from the airport, which is farther away and a different geography.)

Time    Wind      Speed      Gust      Rainfall Rate/hr
18:27   Calm                      2.5mph   0.00in
18:32   Calm                      3.1mph   0.00in
18:37   Calm                      3.1mph   0.02in
18:42   Calm                      1.6mph   0.03in
18:47   East      1.1mph      1.6mph   0.04in
18:52   East      1.6mph      1.8mph   0.04in
18:57   East      1.1mph      1.8mph   0.04in
19:02   ENE      1.1mph      2.5mph   0.05in
19:07   East      1.3mph      2.5mph   0.07in
19:13   Calm                      2.5mph   0.08in
19:18   Calm                      2.2mph    0.09in
19:23   Calm                      2.2mph   0.09in
19:28   East       1.3mph      1.6mph   0.09in
19:33   ENE       1.1mph      2.2mph   0.09in
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 07, 2013, 07:11:59 PM
FYI: here is the wind and rain data for 2/26/12 for the Ravena Park weather station, the measuring point closest to RATL.

Thanks. That's interesting.

I didn't know any weather station chopped it's rain data so finely over time.

One thing leaps out. It was raining hardest when Dee Dee said (http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2012/6/2/142039/6821/24#24) it had stopped.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: leftwig on February 07, 2013, 08:41:20 PM
FYI: here is the wind and rain data for 2/26/12 for the Ravena Park weather station, the measuring point closest to RATL. (I noticed DM had posted data from the airport, which is farther away and a different geography.)

Time    Wind      Speed      Gust      Rainfall Rate/hr
18:27   Calm                      2.5mph   0.00in
18:32   Calm                      3.1mph   0.00in
18:37   Calm                      3.1mph   0.02in
18:42   Calm                      1.6mph   0.03in
18:47   East      1.1mph      1.6mph   0.04in
18:52   East      1.6mph      1.8mph   0.04in
18:57   East      1.1mph      1.8mph   0.04in
19:02   ENE      1.1mph      2.5mph   0.05in
19:07   East      1.3mph      2.5mph   0.07in
19:13   Calm                      2.5mph   0.08in
19:18   Calm                      2.2mph    0.09in
19:23   Calm                      2.2mph   0.09in
19:28   East       1.3mph      1.6mph   0.09in
19:33   ENE       1.1mph      2.2mph   0.09in

Thats information from the second closest weather tower to RTL (1.5 miles away).  The closest tower (about .75 miles away) has higher wind readings (gusts to 5mph) as well as slightly higher rain averages.  The heaviest rain in the area appears to be around 7:10-7:30.

http://imgur.com/a/bcAII

Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 08, 2013, 06:40:04 AM
The clubhouse pool is closer still.  I thought Deb has checked the video of it for rain information.  I suppose we are interested mostly in the 7:12 - 7:16 time frame as far as Zimmerman's actions.  What was the time Martin supposedly sought shelter from the rain, according to DeeDee?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 08, 2013, 07:12:03 AM
The closest tower (about .75 miles away) has higher wind readings (gusts to 5mph)...
http://imgur.com/a/bcAII

Did you read the explanatory text under tchoupi's charts?

I know the purpose of this site is to support the defense, but if the claim is going to be that there was a wind gust that corresponded exactly with the period when GZ was breathing hard in his pursuit of TM, and stopped to dead calm immediately thereafter, I doubt that would have any value in court. The prosecution would get a meteorologist for rebuttal, and make the defense look foolish. Might as well admit GZ was running. It doesn't go directly to the self-defense claim, and GZ has so many "mis-statements" to explain away that any one of them isn't going to make a difference one way or the other.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 08, 2013, 07:16:10 AM
What was the time Martin supposedly sought shelter from the rain, according to DeeDee?

She gives no indication that would establish when he first sought shelter, but her comments about the dropped calls put TM under the mail awning at 6:54.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 08, 2013, 07:28:57 AM
She gives no indication that would establish when he first sought shelter, but her comments about the dropped calls put TM under the mail awning at 6:54.
In other threads, it is established that a Breezeway in Colonial Village (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/8433464081/in/set-72157632691885798) is a strong candidate for where the sheltering took place.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: leftwig on February 08, 2013, 07:44:44 AM
Did you read the explanatory text under tchoupi's charts?

I know the purpose of this site is to support the defense, but if the claim is going to be that there was a wind gust that corresponded exactly with the period when GZ was breathing hard in his pursuit of TM, and stopped to dead calm immediately thereafter, I doubt that would have any value in court. The prosecution would get a meteorologist for rebuttal, and make the defense look foolish. Might as well admit GZ was running. It doesn't go directly to the self-defense claim, and GZ has so many "mis-statements" to explain away that any one of them isn't going to make a difference one way or the other.

Yes, and they are factually inaccurate.  Wind measurements at 50' are not always higher than surface measurements (the essence of tchoupi's analysis) because structures like buildings can cause a tunneling effect which increases wind speeds.  I work in an area that is relatively open and park in a lot and walk downhill to the building entrance which is flanked by other structures.  There is almost always higher wind gusts at the bottom of the hill where the buildings create a tunnel than there is in the open area at the top of the hill.   RTL has 2-3 story buildings arranged in rows which certainly can cause variances in wind speeds.  In essence, an expert would have no problem rebutting any claim that we know exactly what the wind gusts were in that exact location at the time GZ exited his vehicle.

I didn't really want to get into all of that, my initial comment was on their being a closer weather station that showed slightly higher rain and wind measurements with slightly different timing.

Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 08, 2013, 09:37:51 AM
Oh gosh, let's not get on the wind/chase thing ::) in a clubhouse video section. But if the claim is going to be George ran at that point then that is another claim that would have to be proven. I had fun messing around with it though; taking my phone outside and running with it to see if I could reproduce those wind noises :) Of course to be precise for such a test we would need to know what phone George was using that night. It was a blackberry wasn't it? Did he use a bluetooth or something of that nature?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 08, 2013, 10:33:07 AM
Oh gosh, let's not get on the wind/chase thing ::) in a clubhouse video section. But if the claim is going to be George ran at that point then that is another claim that would have to be proven. I had fun messing around with it though; taking my phone outside and running with it to see if I could reproduce those wind noises :) Of course to be precise for such a test we would need to know what phone George was using that night. It was a blackberry wasn't it? Did he use a bluetooth or something of that nature?

Hey now!  I was fascinated watching that rain.  It kept me amused and out of trouble for hours...   :D

((I think it is because we are in a drought.))
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: whonoze on February 08, 2013, 01:22:39 PM
Did [GZ] use a bluetooth or something of that nature?

I don't think so. He never mentions using a headset. None was found at the scene or logged into evidence. W8 siad Trayvon told her 'the man was on the phone' which he wouldn't have been able to discern unless GZ was holding a phone to his ear.

On another matter, I think Smith approached with flashers on, but without a siren. None of the witnesses mention hearing a siren. And police sirens are LOUD, so you'd think we would hear it in the background of one of the 911 calls if Smith (or Ayala for that matter) had used his.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: AghastInFL on February 08, 2013, 07:00:08 PM
Yes, and they are factually inaccurate.  Wind measurements at 50' are not always higher than surface measurements (the essence of tchoupi's analysis) because structures like buildings can cause a tunneling effect which increases wind speeds.  I work in an area that is relatively open and park in a lot and walk downhill to the building entrance which is flanked by other structures.  There is almost always higher wind gusts at the bottom of the hill where the buildings create a tunnel than there is in the open area at the top of the hill.  RTL has 2-3 story buildings arranged in rows which certainly can cause variances in wind speeds.  In essence, an expert would have no problem rebutting any claim that we know exactly what the wind gusts were in that exact location at the time GZ exited his vehicle.

I didn't really want to get into all of that, my initial comment was on their being a closer weather station that showed slightly higher rain and wind measurements with slightly different timing.
I would like to quash this here and now, since the Esquire article it has been repeated many times and many places but the simple fact is "The Retreat at Twin Lakes" is composed of two story townhomes only, there are NO 3 story buildings of any sort in RATL. "Lakes Edge" and "Colonial Village at Twin Lakes" both have 2-3 story buildings, RATL does not.

*Nothing personal leftwig I just wanted to address that single point.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: TalkLeft on February 09, 2013, 07:28:01 PM
Has anyone seen the photographs that SA Rodriguez took of the camera locations? I don't think they provided them in the public discovery but they are referenced in reports.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on February 09, 2013, 11:17:05 PM
Has anyone seen the photographs that SA Rodriguez took of the camera locations? I don't think they provided them in the public discovery but they are referenced in reports.

None that I have seen.  Anywhere.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 09, 2013, 11:56:41 PM
At 7:18:39 JohnW6 tells the 911 operator "There's two guys in the backyard with flashlights." This more than a minute before Smith arrives on scene and arrests GZ. So we know one of the guys with a flashlight is W13. The only other person there is Zimmerman. His 'tactical' flashlight wasn't working. So he had to be using his mini-key-chain light. Which means he dropped it at the T AFTER the struggle, probably because he didn't want anything in his hands when he surrendered to the officer.

In his FDLE interview, W-13 indicated he saw the keychain flashlight on the ground near the T, just after he went outside.

Quote
Investigator: Did you, after you went outside with your flashlight, and looked around, was it anything laying on the ground that you noticed out of the ordinary?

W-13: No. Along, along with just the kid laying there, I saw, I noticed there was one, it, it looked like one of those tactical flashlights. And then, towards the corner, on the sidewalk, across from where the, that poop station is, was a, like a little flashlight. I don't know if it could have been, like, it looked like a flashlight to me anyways. So it looked like there was two flashlights on the ground.

I haven't found an acceptable link to W-13's FDLE interview. Jeralyn doesn't want any linking to Axiom Amnesia. I spent some time searching in vain on YouTube. This page (http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/24/13951/8773) has SPD and SAO interviews for W-13, but not FDLE.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on February 10, 2013, 03:12:55 PM
In his FDLE interview, W-13 indicated he saw the keychain flashlight on the ground near the T, just after he went outside.

That's quite an interesting interview. I'm surprised it's so hard to find a copy.

Perhaps what W6 saw was W13's flashlight, and the beam of W13's flashlight on Zimmerman. W13 says he shown his flashlight on Zimmerman, which would produce an extra spot of light.  The fact that W13 saw the small flashlight on the ground, and didn't mention Zimmerman having a flashlight at the time W13 was shining his flashlight, pretty much invalidates whonoze's theory.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: TalkLeft on February 10, 2013, 08:25:23 PM
Let's keep this thread to the clubhouse videos and cameras please.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 14, 2013, 02:33:54 PM
There's quite a few oddities out there that think GZ never parked at the clubhouse, but aside from the obvious, if you look at the 2 windows in the game room vid, you can clearly see them illuminate after he obviously pulls in at about 20:46.

Those 2 windows nearly double in output for about a minute or so, it is very subtle but clear as day when you look for the change(use the slider).

Aside from passing cars, the 2 windows stay consistent for the entire tape, except when GZ pulls in for that brief stay.

That light event begins about 26:23 on the Whonoze video, 7:07:13 on his version of the time stamp. A few seconds later there is an even more prominent brightening of the kitchen window. Why do you think this is a vehicle parking instead of passing?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 14, 2013, 03:43:15 PM
8)
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/clubhouse-video-and-discussion/

I don't understand why you think W-3 could see through the gaps between the buildings. They're about 17 feet wide and 40 feet long. You can use Google Earth ruler to see where a person would have to be to see through one, and W-3 would be nowhere close.

I also don't think her being on the second floor would make more than a minor difference in what she could see. All the neighboring buildings are two story. It's not like she could see over them.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: leftwig on February 14, 2013, 04:03:52 PM
So we don't think she could have seen police lights flashing through the 17' gaps between the buildings and reflecting off of other surfaces? 
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 14, 2013, 04:05:28 PM
I don't understand why you think W-3 could see through the gaps between the buildings. They're about 17 feet wide and 40 feet long. You can use Google Earth ruler to see where a person would have to be to see through one, and W-3 would be nowhere close.

I also don't think her being on the second floor would make more than a minor difference in what she could see. All the neighboring buildings are two story. It's not like she could see over them.

I don't know why you think I think that. I have no idea what W3 can see from her window.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 14, 2013, 04:39:04 PM
So we don't think she could have seen police lights flashing through the 17' gaps between the buildings and reflecting off of other surfaces?

Is there any evidence that Smith's flashers were on?

Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 14, 2013, 04:44:11 PM
I have no idea what W3 can see from her window.

I have an idea that W-3 doesn't have X-ray vision.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: leftwig on February 14, 2013, 05:41:31 PM
Is there any evidence that Smith's flashers were on?

If he was driving down RVC, would we have any evidence they were or weren't? 
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 14, 2013, 07:52:30 PM
I don't understand why you think W-3 could see through the gaps between the buildings.

I don't know why you think I think that.

Apologies for the sloppy wording. That should have been 'might have been able to see'.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: spectator on February 14, 2013, 08:14:34 PM
That light event begins about 26:23 on the Whonoze video, 7:07:13 on his version of the time stamp. A few seconds later there is an even more prominent brightening of the kitchen window. Why do you think this is a vehicle parking instead of passing?


How many seconds later, from ?

The game room.avi is interesting, but it's clear a vehicle is parked in front of the clubhouse for about a minute, just by looking at the parking lot illumination.
About 21:40 things start to change, and there does appear to be some traffic about.

As for the kitchen.avi, check the 40:27 vehicle with the one at 20:47(GZ), also notice the shape of the 20:47 tire, those are pretty good hints to what is happening, aside from the lighting events alone.

Happy Valentines. :)
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DiwataMan on February 14, 2013, 08:23:48 PM
I don't know why you think I think that.


Apologies for the sloppy wording. That should have been 'might have been able to see'.

I think what may need to be understood is the context of the entire paragraph and the form I pose the thought. It's essentially rhetorical. Despite some claims I have seen, no one can say what she can see from her window and more specifically no one can say with any certainty what she saw regarding police other than the fact that they arrived and she could see them.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 17, 2013, 05:50:11 AM
That light event begins about 26:23 on the Whonoze video, 7:07:13 on his version of the time stamp. A few seconds later there is an even more prominent brightening of the kitchen window.

How many seconds later, from ?

About 3 seconds earlier.

After comparing with DiwataMan's YouTube versions of the kitchen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYtDr08hLoI) and game room (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czdwBkPZwbs) videos, I realized that I confused the game room event you were talking about with an earlier one, about 20:38. The kitchen event is around 20:44.

Quote
The game room.avi is interesting, but it's clear a vehicle is parked in front of the clubhouse for about a minute, just by looking at the parking lot illumination.

Sorry, I missed the part about the game room LE lasting a minute.

I don't agree. The event you say starts at 20:47 and lasts a minute, I see starting about 20:46 and ending about 20:48/49.

Has anybody else noticed something looking in the western game room window at 20:46? It's got kind of a pointy snout, like a possum, or a baby deer. Could be an extraterrestrial.

Has anyone explained the constant shape(s) in the east game room window? I call them Siamese ghosts.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: RickyJim on February 17, 2013, 07:29:19 AM
I've asked before but no luck so I am trying again.  What does the video taken by the  the pool camera say about the intensity of rainfall between 6:45PM to 7:20PM on 2/16/12?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 17, 2013, 05:12:20 PM
As for the kitchen.avi, check the 40:27 vehicle with the one at 20:47(GZ), also notice the shape of the 20:47 tire, those are pretty good hints to what is happening, aside from the lighting events alone.

Do you mean you think Zimmerman stopped at the clubhouse to change a flat tire?

ETA: Thanks for 40:27.

One frame, clear view of the right rear of a vehicle pointed E on RVC.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: spectator on February 17, 2013, 05:46:52 PM


I don't agree. The event you say starts at 20:47 and lasts a minute, I see starting about 20:46 and ending about 20:48/49.
game room avi
We're not on the same page at all(my fault),  focus on the pavement outside either window after GZ parks (big window is better).

Give the vehicle time to park (20:56 or so), and then use the slider(click) to compare the pavement with any other part of the 45min tape.

As an example, freeze the tape at 21:00, and then click on 34:00 while carefully watching the parking lot outside the larger window,look for the change, it's as obvious as a black out.

Aside from the interruptions by vehicles, the parking lot is always the same for the entire tape (.19 lux), except when GZ is parked, it then nearly doubles to .36 lux.

 At 21:40 changes begin.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: spectator on February 17, 2013, 05:57:51 PM
Do you mean you think Zimmerman stopped at the clubhouse to change a flat tire?

LOL, good one.

No, it clearly shows GZ is lighting up his tires with a ground shaking burn out ... just kidding.

Actually it shows the angle of the truck(pulling in), imho

Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 17, 2013, 06:47:21 PM
game room avi
We're not on the same page at all(my fault),  focus on the pavement outside either window after GZ parks (big window is better).

Give the vehicle time to park (20:56 or so), and then use the slider(click) to compare the pavement with any other part of the 45min tape.

As an example, freeze the tape at 21:00, and then click on 34:00 while carefully watching the parking lot outside the larger window,look for the change, it's as obvious as a black out.

Aside from the interruptions by vehicles, the parking lot is always the same for the entire tape (.19 lux), except when GZ is parked, it then nearly doubles to .36 lux.

 At 21:40 changes begin.

Thanks. I'll check all of that when I have time.

Actually it shows the angle of the truck(pulling in), imho

I don't think that's a tire. It's too big/close, and too high off the ground.

The size, shape, height, and position seem about right to be one of those parking signs.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 17, 2013, 11:49:02 PM
I don't think that's a tire. It's too big/close, and too high off the ground.

The size, shape, height, and position seem about right to be one of those parking signs.

Disregard all of that.

The sign should actually be smaller and lower, and I think I can see it in the lower left corner of the kitchen window.

I think I misinterpreted the photo I linked.

The large image does seem likely to be the fender and tire of a vehicle.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 19, 2013, 08:27:02 PM
Actually it shows the angle of the truck(pulling in), imho

Do you think that is the front or the back of the vehicle?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 19, 2013, 08:40:32 PM
I've considered the possibility that this was when GZ pulled out from the CH. That TM had 'skipped' past him to the East and then South onto TTL and that GZ had lost sight of him. So he pulled out to follow and try and get a line of sight on him again. It also matches what GZ said in the re-enactment while parked at the CH.

1:34:25- Okay [turns in seat]. These assholes, they always get away. Yep [power window switch or gear
shift and four footsteps/fade]

If you want to have Zimmerman at the clubhouse this late in the NEN call, you face a tough choice.

A: Martin circled the truck at the clubhouse, although Zimmerman never said that and twice denied it.

B: The circling didn't happen. After this point, there isn't time for it to happen on TTL.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 19, 2013, 08:47:25 PM
There's quite a few oddities out there that think GZ never parked at the clubhouse, but aside from the obvious, if you look at the 2 windows in the game room vid, you can clearly see them illuminate after he obviously pulls in at about 20:46.

Here's a quick demonstration of what I believe I'm seeing.

Are these posts referencing the same event?

No one answered this. Now I can answer it myself.

They are the same event.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: spectator on February 19, 2013, 09:38:54 PM
Do you think that is the front or the back of the vehicle?

Convinced it's the rear portion of GZ's truck.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on February 19, 2013, 09:49:08 PM
Convinced it's the rear portion of GZ's truck.

How can you tell?
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: spectator on February 19, 2013, 10:47:38 PM
How can you tell?

Hmm?(thinking), i need some coffee to answer that one.
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: Departure on April 07, 2013, 04:59:54 AM
Quote from: DiwataMan on January 27, 2013, 11:52:48 AM

@0:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFOrPYD0Q0

Too bad they couldn't just pan to the right a bit ay? We might have seen George's truck.

From the video above, from approx 0:45-0:48, I believe that view is looking west, across the T, from RVC.  There is a vehicle there just beyond the west end of the T, which could be GZ's vehicle.

Speaking of, I imagine there could be some footage that didn't make that telecast/story that may show GZ's vehicle somewhere.

Here's a screenshot I grabbed that shows the above:

http://i.imgur.com/KSGozDH.png (are embedded photos allowed here?  I don't recall seeing any, so I'm not embedding just in case).

It may be easier to see while watching the video in motion.
Title: Re: CCTV
Post by: AJ on April 07, 2013, 01:30:25 PM
From the video above, from approx 0:45-0:48, I believe that view is looking west, across the T, from RVC.  There is a vehicle there just beyond the west end of the T, which could be GZ's vehicle.

I don't believe that is correct. Based on the image, I'd say that vehicle is on the southern side of the sidewalk going east/west. Mr. Zimmerman has had a few opportunities to tell where his vehicle was, and in none of those did he ever say his vehicle went that far. In his map that he drew for Singleton it was along the east/west section of road. In the reenactment he told them to park on the east/west section of the road. I believe what you're seeing in that image is the other vehicle that one of the officers (Smith?) ran the plates on.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: AJ on April 07, 2013, 01:45:51 PM
Couldn't edit my previous. In at least one statement he also said he parked so his headlights could shine down the sidewalk. The way that vehicle is marked doesn't facilitate this.
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: MJW on April 11, 2013, 09:19:22 PM
In at least one statement he also said he parked so his headlights could shine down the sidewalk. The way that vehicle is marked doesn't facilitate this.

He clearly says that in the voice-stress interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY&feature=player_embedded#!).
Title: Re: Retreat at Twin Lakes Clubhouse Videos
Post by: DebFrmHell on April 11, 2013, 09:48:24 PM
He clearly says that in the voice-stress interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY&feature=player_embedded#!).

From me, DFH, same link about the vehicle...
Quote
I see on the East Pool Cam at 7:11 approx. where I think it is a vehicle pulling over to the north side of the curb on TTL.  It doesn't pass behind the street light where TTL bends to the south.  That time wouldn't jive 7:08 either but would be closer in alignment to the NEN.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcUO0t0TZfE
Diwata's EAST POOL CAM