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State v. George Zimmerman (Pre-Trial) => Zimmerman: Police Investigation => Topic started by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 06:04:04 PM

Title: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 06:04:04 PM
DiwataMan (http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/mdspd-and-the-george-zimmerman-case-intro/) has a post linking a facsimile of what appears to be a request from Sgt. Randy Smith of the Sanford Police, to a Detective Hadley, dated 2/29/12, for information on Trayvon Martin. DiwataMan thinks Hadley is with 'MDSPD', which I believe is Miami Dade School Police.

The document is said to have been released pursuant to an FOIA request.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: unitron on April 14, 2013, 06:17:36 PM
DiwataMan (http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/mdspd-and-the-george-zimmerman-case-intro/) has a post linking a facsimile of what appears to be a request from Sgt. Randy Smith of the Sanford Police, to a Detective Hadley, dated 2/29/12, for information on Trayvon Martin. DiwataMan thinks Hadley is with 'MDSPD', which I believe is Miami Dade School Police.

The document is said to have been released pursuant to an FOIA request.

Actually the treehouse* is running a multi-part series of FOIA'ed stuff he got on Martin's school system's police force.

Seems they brought their crime stats way down by not recording student crimes as crimes.

And then when Sanford requested Martin's records from them it all hit the fan.

It's a regular soap opera.

*Information is where you find it.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 14, 2013, 07:50:24 PM
Hadley, Tagle, Hurley. We'll be needing another playlist.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: unitron on April 14, 2013, 08:23:46 PM
Hadley, Tagle, Hurley. We'll be needing another playlist.

Programs, programs, git yer programs, can't tell the players without a program.

Programs, programs...

Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 17, 2013, 06:54:21 AM
So far, it seems the reporting by the Miami Herald is holding up well. There are allegations of falsified reports, but it seems the Miami Herald got accurate versions.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 17, 2013, 04:46:27 PM

I forgot to link the Miami Herald report (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html) in question. The reporter is Frances Robles.

 
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 17, 2013, 04:52:02 PM

DiWataman (http://diwataman.wordpress.com/my-posts-parent-page/the-m-dspd-ia-investigation/) has a list of new players.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: RickyJim on April 17, 2013, 05:39:53 PM
This affair may be interesting in  its own right but I can't think of a reason why any new evidence relevant to the Zimmerman case will emerge from it. 
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 17, 2013, 06:03:23 PM
This affair may be interesting in  its own right but I can't think of a reason why any new evidence relevant to the Zimmerman case will emerge from it.

I doubt any such evidence will emerge, but I wouldn't rule it out.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: Evil Chinchilla on April 21, 2013, 09:56:26 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how this doesn't already provide "any new evidence relevant to the Zimmerman case."

Looking at the affidavits that were obtained under FOIA-- and there could be more to come if the next set of requests is fulfilled in time-- it seems like there was a concerted effort to keep Trayvon's actual activities under wraps.

Commander Deanna Fox-Williams and Sgt. William Tagle had some major accusations in their sworn statements that directly touched on how Trayvon's records were handled-- including one high-level official looking at Trayvon's files as a result of Smith's request, saying "Oh, God... Oh, God...", and then ordering that reports be filed "as is" from then on, with no alterations.

This wasn't only about generalized M-DSPD misconduct.

I'm thinking there's some people in M-DSPD that really need to be deposed by MoM about things in Trayvon's record that got swept under the rug-- assuming there's still time to do so.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: RickyJim on April 22, 2013, 08:50:41 AM
So EC, the "new evidence" in the Zimmerman case, is your speculation that the school records that the defense has may have been tampered with?  So far, no sign that O'Mara and West think so.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: DebFrmHell on April 22, 2013, 09:36:22 AM
So EC, the "new evidence" in the Zimmerman case, is your speculation that the school records that the defense has may have been tampered with?  So far, no sign that O'Mara and West think so.
The one thing is does do is confirm the story that Frances Robles wrote for the Miami Herald.  Other than that I can help but to think that other students would be better off if the same set of rules applied to everyone.

TM could have been up for vandalism of school property and for possession of drug paraphernalia. Both minor offenses.  He wasn't exactly "squeaky" clean but there is that tweet from the cousin that has me curious as to the extent of Hurley's practices.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: Evil Chinchilla on April 22, 2013, 12:19:28 PM
So EC, the "new evidence" in the Zimmerman case, is your speculation that the school records that the defense has may have been tampered with?  So far, no sign that O'Mara and West think so.
Have you actually read the FOIA-released documents? Or are you just "speculating" there's nothing relevant to the Zimmerman case in them?

The sworn statements made as part of the Internal Affairs investigation launched by Chief Hurley make it clear that the documents on Trayvon Martin that were given by M-DSPD to Sgt. Randy Smith of the Sanford Police Dept. had been written in such a manner that an upper-level figure* looked at the files on his computer, responded "Oh, God... Oh, no... Oh, God..." and on the spot ordered Commander Fox-Williams to tell the men under her to from that point on write all incident reports "as is," countermanding Chief Hurley's directive.

(And when she told them, one of them responded "Oh, so now they want them written 'as is'?")

This isn't "speculation", it's what was stated under oath by the M-DSPD staff under investigation as a result of Robles' article.

The statements make it clear that M-DSPD policies at the time caused Trayvon's records that were given to Sgt. Randy Smith to have been written in some way so that they did not describe the incident(s) "as is".

If the school records Smith received downgraded or omitted Trayvon's offenses, this could potentially have biased Smith's opinion of whether George "wrongly profiled" Trayvon and whether he was entitled to "stand your ground" protection from being charged.

And IIRC, Smith was the dissenter when the estimation was made that SPD didn't have the evidence to charge George, and IIRC, he was one of the ones who pressed Serino to write a capias charging George.
 
While the testimony that's been released doesn't spell out the content of Trayvon's records, it's clear things weren't being fully reported; there was testimony involving the school officer** in the "graffiti" incident and the way he dealt with the jewelry in Trayvon's backpack, including officers in charge of the M-DSPD property room being called to testify.

It's also not known what was in the file that triggered the "Oh, God" response, but it was enough to result in an immediate countermanding of Hurley's policy.

It could've been either something concerning the marijuana or the jewelry-- since those things had been mentioned by Robles-- or it could have been something attached in some way that was not part of the official report (thus the order to write reports of incidents "as is"). If the latter is true, the "something attached" could have been related to "the tweet we can't discuss".

And yes, this last part IS just "speculation".


------

* (not sure I can say here who this was, since his own sworn statement hasn't yet been released under FOIA)

** (same applies here, since his sworn statement also hasn't yet been released under FOIA)
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: leftwig on April 22, 2013, 01:10:49 PM

If the school records Smith received downgraded or omitted Trayvon's offenses, this could potentially have biased Smith's opinion of whether George "wrongly profiled" Trayvon and whether he was entitled to "stand your ground" protection from being charged.

While I think the school records have some relevance to the case, I doubt whether TM being a jewelry thief (speculation based on being found with jewelry not belonging to him) or not has anything to do with GZ's self defense claim.  I could see it maybe playing a role in the murder 2 charge in showing that TM had engaged in suspicious activity before, so GZ wasn't just out to get someone that night.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: annoyedbeyond on April 22, 2013, 08:21:44 PM
What's the ruling from The Boss about what can and can't be talked about RE this issue? Seems like it could easily veer into no no land? Or have the no no rules been relaxed?


And TM's school record might not have anything to do with his interaction with GZ, but it might well have something to do with GZ's interaction with a jury of his peers, no?
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: FromBelow on April 22, 2013, 09:13:18 PM
What's the ruling from The Boss about what can and can't be talked about RE this issue? Seems like it could easily veer into no no land? Or have the no no rules been relaxed?


And TM's school record might not have anything to do with his interaction with GZ, but it might well have something to do with GZ's interaction with a jury of his peers, no?

Can't speak for Jeralyn, but since the defense has requested Trayvon's school records they would seem to have been brought into play. IANAL, but I doubt much of it will be relevant at trial unless it shows a history of aggression or violence. We can speculate that because M-DSPD was 'cooking the books' there might be such evidence, but until it shows up it's just speculation. If it ever existed it might be gone for good. Unless some M-DSPD officers testify.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: leftwig on April 23, 2013, 07:40:17 AM
I could see school records being relevant if the prosecution puts on character witnesses that call TM a good kid/student.  I could also see issues such as trespassing, vandalism and possible theft being relevant to why GZ called NEN in the first place (for GZ's credibility, not anything to do with what caused the confrontation).
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: TalkLeft on April 23, 2013, 08:46:42 PM
Just saw this thread. I've been following the Boston case.

Since someone asked, here's the policy.

There is a difference between school records and police records. O'Mara requested and received school records which are not being made public. The police records were obtained by an FOIA request, not O'Mara. They have become part of an internal affairs investigation. O'Mara  has not filed any pleadings about them or indicated he will seek to introduce them. If they weren't in possession of the state's attorney, or an agency that participated in the Zimmerman  investigation, he's under no duty to disclose them.

If I'm not mistaken, the 8 pages of reports on Martin were not released. Only documents with school officers talking about them were released. So no one knows what they said.

The issue in this case is whether GZ's actions in shooting Martin were justified. We already know he was hit first. Unless the  police records show a propensity by Martin for unprovoked violence, and I'm not aware that they do, they remain irrelevant to any issue in GZ's legal case and serve only to attack Martin's character. Just as does his reported drug use.

If you think that the actions of the police in handling the Martin reports affected the decision of Sanford to charge, or they deliberately withheld them from the FDLE or the state's attorney's office, or something along those lines, you can discuss that without referring to the specific actions of Martin contained in the reports.

It's been over a week since I looked at this, so if new information contradicts what I've written here, please PM me and point it out. I will be happy to make any corrections.

I haven't read through the responses on this thread, but when I do, I will delete any that attack Martin's character. If you have posted in the thread, and want to preserve your comments, copy them to your computer, so if I delete them, you won't be out your work.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: leftwig on April 24, 2013, 12:15:28 PM
I understand where you are coming from and will try to stay within the parameters of your request.

I do have a legal question though related to this information and whether it could be relevant to the case.  If the prosecution calls witnesses who detail how TM was a good student and never got into trouble, would his school suspensions, attendance reports and other reports be allowed to be introduced?  I would have to think so. 

To go a step further, the prosecution is sure to present/argue that TM wasn't doing anything wrong when GZ profiled him and called NEN (walking on Taffe's property and looking at all the houses).  Wouldn't a report of an incident that occurred just a few weeks prior, detailing TM being caught [deleted by TalkLeft](whether investigated or not) be relevant to bringing into question whether TM may have been up to something when GZ observed him?

I can totally see why the defense wouldn't be able to introduce this information on their own, but I'd think they would be able to in dispute of prosecution testimony. 
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: TalkLeft on April 24, 2013, 04:41:38 PM
Here's a good answer (http://www.ckcattorneys.com/character-evidence-in-civil-and-criminal-cases/) to your questions and please stop repeating the details implying criminal activity. Further comments in which you do so will be deleted. I am going to edit the details out of your last comment.

Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: unitron on April 24, 2013, 04:55:39 PM
... (walking on Taffe's property and looking at all the houses)...

I'm reasonably certain there's no law, even in Florida, against looking at houses, but was Martin on Taaffe's property or on the common area between buildings?
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 24, 2013, 05:32:00 PM
was Martin on Taaffe's property or on the common area between buildings?

Is the area between those two buildings common? I wouldn't think so, since there's no sidewalk there.

Zimmerman said a few times that Martin was in front of the house. He was most specific in the reenactment. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4)

1:24-35
Quote
Smith: Where did he, where was he standing at when you, when he stopped? 

Zimmerman: Right there. Right in front of 1460. 

Smith: By the sidewalk, or in the grassy area?

Zimmerman: No, in the grassy area.

Smith: Right in the grassy area?

Zimmerman: Yes.

Smith: OK. That's about right in front of where the car is.

Zimmerman: Yes, sir.

Still. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/81587998@N06/7807621840/in/set-72157630837258338)

 
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: unitron on April 24, 2013, 05:46:58 PM
They didn't have sense enough to make Zimmerman go over and stand and walk exactly where Martin supposedly did, and the way that car is pointed puts the entire grassy area in "front" of it.

Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 24, 2013, 05:57:45 PM
The misdemeanor of 'trespassing' is defined by Fla. Stat. 810.09. (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0800-0899/0810/Sections/0810.09.html)

The yard wasn't posted, fenced, or cultivated, so it seems a person would only be guilty of trespassing if they refused to leave after being asked to. That's how I read the statute.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on April 24, 2013, 05:59:13 PM
They didn't have sense enough to make Zimmerman go over and stand and walk exactly where Martin supposedly did, and the way that car is pointed puts the entire grassy area in "front" of it.

It's not all 'in front of 1460'.
Title: Re: Correspondence Between Sanford and Miami Police
Post by: unitron on April 24, 2013, 06:03:10 PM
It's not all 'in front of 1460'.

That's my point.  The entire grassy area south of Frank's place and north of the next building to the south is "in front" of the car because of the way the car is parked parallel to the street instead of at right angles to it.

Which makes " That's about right in front of where the car is." vague enough to be of little value.