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George Zimmerman Trial Coverage => Media Coverage => Topic started by: Cylinder on June 14, 2013, 05:53:26 PM

Title: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: Cylinder on June 14, 2013, 05:53:26 PM
Florida v. Zimmerman: Uncovering the Malicious Prosecution of my Son, George (http://www.amazon.com/Florida-Zimmerman-Uncovering-Prosecution-ebook/dp/B00DE19P3K/ref=sr_1_3?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1371247539&sr=1-3&keywords=Robert+Zimmerman)
 
  This book describes how and why my son, George Zimmerman, has been charged with the crime of murder.
 
Obviously the remarks are being heavily trolled.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: TalkLeft on June 14, 2013, 11:36:56 PM
I think it was a horrible decision to release the book now. He should have waited until the trial is over. It's just fodder for the prosecution. Reports of the book's repeated claim of the reverse race card being played will be picked by anti-Zimmeran sites and spread around, potentially increasing the prejudice to the jury pool.  This is as bad an idea as was Osterman's book and more dangerous, because it's on the eve of trial.

(Please don't discuss the substance of the racial claims here, I've worked too hard to keep these forums and this site free of the social debate on race. There are plenty of other sites to debate that on.)

He should have waited until after the verdict to publish this book. If I were O'Mara, I'd be seething.   
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 15, 2013, 02:09:12 AM
Obviously the remarks are being heavily trolled.

What strikes me is all the 'reviewers' who wrote one or two sentences about the book, then commenced prattling about their own theory of the case.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 15, 2013, 03:13:29 AM
The 'reviews' are overwhelmingly 5 star and 1 star. Almost nothing in between.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: cboldt on June 15, 2013, 03:32:40 AM
I think it was a horrible decision to release the book now. He should have waited until the trial is over. It's just fodder for the prosecution. Reports of the book's repeated claim of the reverse race card being played will be picked by anti-Zimmeran sites and spread around, potentially increasing the prejudice to the jury pool.

Just on principle, that's a sad reflection on the state of the law, and race relations, in this country.  Very directly, its an admission that criminal law can successfully be used to extract illegal revenge.  If that were not so, your fear would have no foundation.  The illegal revenge, first enabled by the state, comes from increasing the number or resolve of potential stealth jurors.  I haven't read the book, but I speculate that it points out that the prosecution of Zimmerman is lacking probable cause, and was driven by widely reported false claims.

I think the damage (to the state of the law and race relations) was already done, book or no book.  But the state will never be able to obtain a conviction.  I think a clear majority of jurors will follow the evidence and the law.

You are right that the revenge-minded folks, and they are numerous, will be energized by this book.  It's hard to tell if that improves or damages the chances of a stealth juror getting by the court's filter.  It takes only one stealth juror to cause a hung jury.

At the same time, the book also energizes those who have been viewing the case with more or less clear eyes.  I have never been more angry at what the political players have done to an innocent man, using what used to be a steely-eyed and fair institution.  The state, and its court system, have become the enemy of the people.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 15, 2013, 03:35:15 AM
The first review I've found that has anything interesting to say.

ThinkProgress, (http://thinkprogress.org/media/2013/06/14/2162501/george-zimmermans-father-says-the-true-racists-are-all-african-american/?mobile=nc) Judd Legum 

Left-leaning site, very negative about the book, but at least discussing its contents.

Quote
Zimmerman Sr. says that because of Holder’s decision to investigate whether Trayvon Martin’s death violated federal civil rights laws, the FBI did not have “adequate resources to investigate clearly identified potential terrorist [sic] in the Boston area.” Now, “tragically, we have suffered the consequences of Mr. Holder’s politically motivated decisions.”

At the Amazon site there are one 2-star and one 4-star reviews. No 3-star review. I read both of them, they are as worthless as the 1-star and 5-star 'reviews'. I've given up on finding any information about the book on that page.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: cboldt on June 15, 2013, 04:07:30 AM
I've given up on finding any information about the book on that page.

Heh.  The book is four bucks.  Just buy it if you are curious what it contains.

I think the press treatment of it, and ThinkProgress is part of that, will be similar to the press treatment of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.  All of the Zimmerman's are targets, and Robert, Sr. just made himself a bigger one.

a popular Russian saying was "v Pravde net izvestiy, v Izvestiyakh net pravdy" (In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth)
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 15, 2013, 05:26:14 AM
The book is four bucks.  Just buy it if you are curious what it contains.

I'm cheap.

Quote
I think the press treatment of it, and ThinkProgress is part of that, will be similar to the press treatment of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.  All of the Zimmerman's are targets, and Robert, Sr. just made himself a bigger one.

IMO the press gave SBVFT a lot more respect than they deserved. But that's off topic.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: cboldt on June 15, 2013, 05:33:04 AM
I'm cheap.

IMO the press gave SBVFT a lot more respect than they deserved. But that's off topic.

I'm cheap too.  Just saying that if you want to know what's in the book, the book is the best source.

As for SBVFT, my remarks wasn't on respect, it was on whether or not the press accurately recapitulated the contents of their book.  IMO, it did not.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 15, 2013, 05:33:20 AM
I haven't read the book, but I speculate that it points out that the prosecution of Zimmerman is lacking probable cause, and was driven by widely reported false claims.

I read a bit of what's being said at CTH, and it seems the book has a note thanking them for their support.

The impression I'm getting is that the book is more in the CTH vein that the TalkLeft vein.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: RickyJim on June 15, 2013, 08:45:35 AM
Has anybody actually read this or any other book on the case?  I haven't been able to find any reporters/writers who add anything worthwhile to what I read on this forum.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: SuzieTampa on June 15, 2013, 12:36:24 PM
I'm assuming that the book was published now to raise money for the Zimmermans, although I agree that it doesn't help his attorneys.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: TalkLeft on June 15, 2013, 12:41:49 PM
This thread is about Zimmerman's book, not the jury system. Ricky, please stop changing the subject and stop trying to backdoor  your thoughts on our legal system vs. others  into your comments.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: TalkLeft on June 15, 2013, 02:31:34 PM
Sometimes a picture is worth 1000 words. The book is now the top featured article promoted by AOL . The article is based on the Think Progress review which lists the race comments in the book with no context and has the headline "George Zimmerman’s Father Says The ‘True Racists’ Are African-American". It also has a graphic of GZ using that headline. I doubt many prospective jurors would have seen the Think Progress piece, but now that it is the lead story on AOL, it's far more likely they will.

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/rztp_zps6cbe49c2.jpg)

Really dumb in my view to publish this book now. There are far more people who will be offended by that headline, which they will take as an accurate reflection of what RZ is arguing, than will be supportive.

Again, keep your comments to the publication of the book and its effect on the trial, not the validity or invalidity of the alleged arguments contained in it.

Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: cboldt on June 15, 2013, 03:06:30 PM
Really dumb in my view to publish this book now. There are far more people who will be offended by that headline, which they will take as an accurate reflection of what RZ is arguing, than will be supportive.

Well, if the people believe the press (and most of the jurors claimed they didn't), and those people can't prevent that from influencing their deliberations after being admonished to take only what is submitted into evidence, then we have lost our legal system.  Court becomes a farce.

It could complete the act by rendering a conviction.  That would be a lesson to anybody who dares to speak their mind.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: Redbrow on June 15, 2013, 03:11:35 PM
It has really opened up a dialogue at huffington post. If it causes people to investigate the facts of the case further for themselves, then maybe that is a silver lining. Incidentally, beneath the headline and photo on the HP story there is an email sign up titled "Get black voices alerts" which seems divisive in and of itself. I can't imagine a "Get white voices alert" even being considered, let alone tolerated.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/15/george-zimmerman-father-african-americans-racist_n_3447025.html
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: cboldt on June 15, 2013, 03:29:20 PM
It has really opened up a dialogue at huffington post.

I'll bet!   Hahahah.  Not sure I'd refer to the remarks as "dialog."  It's good for people to have a new target to vent their anger at.  Robert sure did increase his own personal threat level.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: SuzieTampa on June 15, 2013, 03:42:01 PM
     OK, you cheapskates, I bought the book and just finished reading it. NMNM, you are right -- this book is very  much in the vein of the CT, not TL. Here are some points:
     1. He criticizes MOM for not being more outspoken about GZ's innocence in the beginning of MOM's representation of GZ. Otherwise, he praises him and especially likes Don West. I think it's very bad strategy to criticize a lawyer who is representing your son for free (so far). I also find this worrisome because the CT has been critical of MOM and it seems to be suggesting that it will be even more so soon.
      2. The book doesn't appear to be edited at all and is full of typos and such. Of course, that hurts RZ's credibility.
      3. It begins with RZ talking about his boyhood, marrying Gladys, George's growing up, etc. I was struck again by how horrible it was that he, his wife and his mother-in-law had to flee their home soon after he was treated for a heart attack.
      4. Any sympathy generated, however, is squandered later when he talks about the lack of coverage of black-on-white crime. Of all people, he should know to be suspicious of what the media initially reports about a crime. I Googled a couple of cases he mentioned, and what was known early on changed later.
       5. As you might expect, he strongly praises his son. He considers TM to have been a troubled youth, but doesn't describe him as a "thug" or anything similar.
        6. He discusses the Martin Lee Anderson case, which I think is very enlightening about how Ben Crump and others have handled this case.
         7. I think he goes too hard on Obama and Holder. Considering the rallies and marches, I think they had to investigate the racial aspect. I haven't seen any evidence that Obama and Crump are particularly close.
         8. I found it helpful for him to recount all the misinformation spread by those who think GZ committed murder. But his recounting doesn't have enough citations.
          9. Although he accuses some prominent African Americans of racism, he makes it clear that he isn't talking about all AAs, and sort of bends over backwards to cite black people who disagree with the prosecution and who like GZ.
         10. His belief that whites are rarely biased against blacks these days will hugely hurt his credibility.
          11. Whoever told him that publishing this book was a good idea and whoever read it before publication deserves a dunce cap in the corner. 
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: RickyJim on June 15, 2013, 04:14:58 PM
Thanks Suzie.  So how many stars do you give it?  I am sure your review would go immediately to Most Helpful if you posted it on Amazon.  John Galt of CTH gave me a review of another Kindle book on the case so no need to read either.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: SuzieTampa on June 15, 2013, 04:53:28 PM
It would get only 1 star from me because it is so poorly done. I'm hoping MOM & Don West will write a book.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: DiwataMan on June 15, 2013, 05:44:28 PM
Sometimes a picture is worth 1000 words. The book is now the top featured article promoted by AOL . The article is based on the Think Progress review which lists the race comments in the book with no context and has the headline "George Zimmerman’s Father Says The ‘True Racists’ Are African-American". It also has a graphic of GZ using that headline. I doubt many prospective jurors would have seen the Think Progress piece, but now that it is the lead story on AOL, it's far more likely they will.

(http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk453/TalkLeft/rztp_zps6cbe49c2.jpg)

Really dumb in my view to publish this book now. There are far more people who will be offended by that headline, which they will take as an accurate reflection of what RZ is arguing, than will be supportive.

Again, keep your comments to the publication of the book and its effect on the trial, not the validity or invalidity of the alleged arguments contained in it.

I thought at first it was a bad idea to put it out now as well but then I read it and all that concern went away, this one won't be making a state's supplemental, lol. The headlines are nothing new as race has been an injected part of the conversation since day one, if it wasn't none of us wold be here talking about this case.

I think I've said all I really care to say about the book itself on my blog.
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/florida-v-zimmerman-uncovering-the-malicious-prosecution-of-my-son-george/
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 15, 2013, 06:30:26 PM
     NMNM, you are right -- this book is very  much in the vein of the CT, not TL.

See, I didn't need to read it.   ;D

Seriously, thanks for doing this.

From your review, it sounds like the book isn't quite as bad as I feared. But Obama is a popular president. Attacking him, especially on a racial issue, doesn't strike me as a way to win new friends. He could have been judiciously critical of one remark, without coming off as someone with a political agenda beyond his son's case.

Does he say anything about the Republican governor of Florida?

I would also say it's counterproductive to complain about the federal investigation that has so far produced lots of evidence that George isn't racist. Complaining about being investigated makes it look he has something to hide, or thinks George does.

Come to think of it, I think this can all be explained by a different hypothesis about his motives. I don't think the purpose of the book is to win over people in the middle. I think it is to raise money from the kind of people who have already been contributing, across the country. That's why he's more interested in attacking national figures like Obama and Holder, than in discussing the real events in Florida politics that brought on the prosecution. Criticizing Republican leaders wouldn't win much, if any, support from Democrats, and might alienate some of the support they already have.

I haven't read DiwataMan's review yet. I'll be going there soon.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 15, 2013, 06:39:39 PM
It would get only 1 star from me because it is so poorly done. I'm hoping MOM & Don West will write a book.

If you post the review at Amazon, you might want to grade on a curve and give it 2. A 1 one star review has come to mean 'I didn't need to read it, I knew I would hate it because I think GZ is guilty.' Of course the counterpart for 5 stars.

There are links for calling up all the reviews with a given number of stars. It's easy for someone like me to check out all the middling reviews to see if any of them are more substantive.

ETA: That an uncurved grade would be only 1 star could be explained in the body of the review.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: SuzieTampa on June 15, 2013, 07:35:22 PM
      That's true about a 1 rating.
      RZ jumps all over Rick Scott and Angela Corey. One oddity about the GZ case is that the same person can be outraged by everyone from the Tea Party to leftists.
     
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 15, 2013, 07:46:33 PM
Come to think of it, I think this can all be explained by a different hypothesis about his motives. I don't think the purpose of the book is to win over people in the middle. I think it is to raise money from the kind of people who have already been contributing, across the country.

It's too late to edit, or I would have just added this to the comment. I thought the same about George's motive for doing the Sean Hannity interview. (http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2085.msg97894.html#msg97894)
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 15, 2013, 08:46:31 PM
Not sure what your point is but with over 5000 comments and counting, cherry picking a few and reporting them here serves no real purpose.

I didn't cherry-pick. IMO those comments are representative. I read several pages, including the earliest and latest.

Would you post a few representative comments of what you consider to be useful 'dialogue'? Because I didn't see one.

ETA: I mean the reply comments are typical of such comments. Most of the comments aren't replied to.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: TalkLeft on June 15, 2013, 10:15:35 PM
Please don't bring trash talk here from other sites. I don't want them associated with me or my sites. I deleted the comments quoting and re-quoting them. Thanks. I also asked readers not to recount or debate the substance of the book,  particularly their view of the validity or invalidity of RZ's thoughts on race, since it doesn't affect the legal case.

Posting about the effect the book may have on the case is fine, but debating what it says is better taken to other sites.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 15, 2013, 10:50:10 PM
I think I've said all I really care to say about the book itself on my blog.
http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/florida-v-zimmerman-uncovering-the-malicious-prosecution-of-my-son-george/

Well, that was disappointing.

I know you didn't say you would review the book, and I apologize for presuming that. But I was expecting a little more explanation for why reading the book allayed your concerns.

Quote
The headlines are nothing new as race has been an injected part of the conversation since day one

The headlines aren't saying that race is part of the conversation. The headlines attribute to Robert Sr. views that I don't recall being associated with him in the past. Even if he has expressed such views in the past, or has been alleged to, he is now said to have published them in a book. That would be new.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 16, 2013, 02:21:13 AM
I'm hoping MOM & Don West will write a book.

I expect that at least one of them will.

So far there are at least two books by participant lawyers in the Casey Anthony case, one by Baez and one by a junior prosecutor.

In the O.J. Simpson case many, I think most, of the lawyers on both sides wrote books. Some of them, notably Johnnie Cochran, didn't say much about the case. They took the opportunity to get some cash and attention for their life stories.

[TalkLeft: deleted gratuitous, slanderous reference..]
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: DiwataMan on June 16, 2013, 09:00:19 AM
Well, that was disappointing.

I know you didn't say you would review the book, and I apologize for presuming that. But I was expecting a little more explanation for why reading the book allayed your concerns.

The headlines aren't saying that race is part of the conversation. The headlines attribute to Robert Sr. views that I don't recall being associated with him in the past. Even if he has expressed such views in the past, or has been alleged to, he is now said to have published them in a book. That would be new.

Lol, yes, nothing much to say really, it is what it is.

I'm not worried about this book as I don't see anything to impeach with as that would be what the prosecutor would look for.

I'm not going to argue the race stuff anymore here as I don't think Jeralyn want's that on here, you're always free to discuss race on my blog though.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 16, 2013, 11:13:58 AM
Quote
[TalkLeft: deleted gratuitous, slanderous reference..]

I appreciate that the whole post wasn't deleted. I was half expecting it would be.  It was marginally on the general topic of books about the Zimmerman case, but not at all on the topic of Robert Sr.'s book.

In case anyone is curious, I'll rephrase.

Johnnie Cochran's ex-wife also wrote a book. She told her life story, in the process making some unflattering statements about her ex.

Better?

For a number of reasons, I am skeptical that the allegation in question is defamatory in the legal sense, though of course it is in the every day sense. It it were, I think it would be libel rather than slander. To say more would be going even further off topic, so I will forbear.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 22, 2013, 12:46:27 PM
I'm not worried about this book as I don't see anything to impeach with as that would be what the prosecutor would look for.

Thanks for the explanation.

I take it that Robert Sr. didn't pull a Tracy Martin, and admit he didn't recognize his son's voice on the recording.

There's more than one way to skin, I mean impeach, a witness.

Fla. Stat. § 90.612 (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0000-0099/0090/Sections/0090.612.html)
Quote
(2) Cross-examination of a witness is limited to the subject matter of the direct examination and matters affecting the credibility of the witness. The court may, in its discretion, permit inquiry into additional matters.

Credibility includes bias (Fla. Stat. § 90.608(2)). (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0000-0099/0090/Sections/0090.608.html) 

The prosecutors wouldn't have to ask about the book directly. They might ask questions like this:

Have you ever said that a prominent person was a racist?
Who was that person?
What made you think the person was racist?
Have you ever said that some organization was racist in character?
How many organizations have you described as racist in character?
Have you ever described as racist in character an organization that was not African-American?

The existence of the book would constrain Robert Sr.'s answers. If he denies saying what is in the book, it can be introduced as impeachment.

I would expect the defense to object to such questions on the grounds that their 'probative value is substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice' to the defendant (Fla. Stat. § 90.403). (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0000-0099/0090/Sections/0090.403.html)

This is obviously a judgment call, making it hard to predict how a judge will rule.

Parenthetically, Judge Nelson cited 90.403 today, in the Order Excluding the Opinion Testimony of Dr. Reich and Mr. Owen (http://www.gzdocs.com/documents/0613/order_excluding.pdf) (p. 11).
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: MJW on June 22, 2013, 05:56:56 PM
The prosecutors wouldn't have to ask about the book directly. They might ask questions like this:

Have you ever said that a prominent person was a racist?
Who was that person?
What made you think the person was racist?
Have you ever said that some organization was racist in character?
How many organizations have you described as racist in character?
Have you ever described as racist in character an organization that was not African-American?

I would be stunned if any of those questions were allowed. "Bias" doesn't mean racial bias, or bias against sugary snacks; it means bias for or against a one of the parties. The prosecution can point out that as the defendant's brother, he's biased toward the defense. That's the kind of bias the rule involves.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: MJW on June 22, 2013, 06:18:32 PM
I should clarify my previous comment. Since Martin was black, then if RZ could be shown to be a raging racist, that would very likely be admissible. But no one in their right mind would consider his saying a prominent person is racist evidence that he's a raging racist.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 22, 2013, 10:56:08 PM
"Bias" doesn't mean racial bias,

There's a ton of case law saying it does.

Granted, all the cases I've found are about racial bias against a defendant. Racial bias against a victim, or racial bias that in any way hurts a prosecution case, I haven't seen a case that's on point for that. In the cases where the bias is against the defendant, the 6th Amendment protection of the right to confront witnesses is often cited. So there may be a different standard for defense and prosecution in this regard. But I'm skeptical until I see a case.

ETA: Racial bias was a crucial issue in the O. J. Simpson case. One of the prosecution's major witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fuhrman) wound up pleading 'no contest' to a perjury charge, on that very issue. Again, bias against the defendant.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 22, 2013, 11:13:37 PM
But no one in their right mind would consider his saying a prominent person is racist evidence that he's a raging racist.

I think 'raging' is your word. Is there a case saying racial bias isn't relevant unless it's 'raging'?

If accounts of the book are correct, Robert Sr. didn't say that just one prominent black person was a racist. Evidence can be cumulative.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: SuzieTampa on June 23, 2013, 07:42:54 AM
I'm not sure if Jeralyn will allow this, but ... RZ said that black people who inject race into issues that don't involve racial bias are being racist. Or, to put it another way, he is accusing blacks of being racist against non-blacks when they try to get an advance by talking about race when the non-blacks aren't racist.

Does that make sense? In other words, he isn't saying all African-Americans are racist against non-blacks.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: annoyedbeyond on June 23, 2013, 07:43:44 AM
Are you confusing bias, which according to the on line legal dictionary just means:

Quote
bias n. the predisposition of a judge, arbitrator, prospective juror, or anyone making a judicial decision, against or in favor of one of the parties or a class of persons. This can be shown by remarks, decisions contrary to fact, reason or law, or other unfair conduct. Bias can be toward an ethnic group, homosexuals, women or men, defendants or plaintiffs, large corporations, or local parties. Getting a "hometown" decision is a form of bias which is the bane of the out-of-town lawyer. There is also the subtle bias of some male judges in favor of pretty women. Obvious bias is a ground for reversal on appeal, but it is hard to prove, since judges are usually careful to display apparent fairness in their comments. The possibility of juror bias is explored in questioning at the beginning of trial in a questioning process called "voir dire.


with bias crime, which has a meaning closer to what you're talking about?

There can be bias without it being racial. Not everything is about race. Not even in this case.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 23, 2013, 08:25:49 AM
In other words, he isn't saying all African-Americans are racist against non-blacks.

I didn't say he was.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: MJW on June 23, 2013, 11:38:33 AM
If accounts of the book are correct, Robert Sr. didn't say that just one prominent black person was a racist. Evidence can be cumulative.

Is it inherently racist to say prominent black persons are racist, even if they are, or will they hold a mini-trial to determine if they really are racist?
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 23, 2013, 12:09:47 PM
Is it inherently racist to say prominent black persons are racist

I don't think so. If the prosecution wants to argue that, which is not what I am suggesting, it might be considered a question of fact for the jury.

You are ignoring my follow-up question, 'What made you think the person was racist?'

I guess I should have made clearer that my list of questions was not meant to be exhaustive. I did say 'questions like this'. I meant them to be suggestive of the beginning of an inquiry.

After a thorough exploration of what African-Americans Robert Sr. thinks are racist, and why, some might consider the results to be evidence of racial bias. I would certainly consider that a question of fact for the jury.

There is still the matter of weighing probative value against danger of prejudice. I think the defense would have a strong case there.

I'm not saying I'm confident that these issues would come in. I'm saying I'm not confident that they wouldn't.

ETA: I couldn't come up with an exhaustive list of questions if I wanted to. I can't begin to imagine the questions a clever, experienced lawyer might come up with, to use Robert Sr.'s book to argue to a jury that he is racially biased.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: MJW on June 23, 2013, 12:23:38 PM
I don't think so. If the prosecution wants to argue that, which is not what I am suggesting, it might be considered a question of fact for the jury.

You are ignoring my follow-up question, 'What made you think the person was racist?'

Yeah, I'm sure the prosecution wants to give RZ an opportunity to recite a litany of outrageous statements made by those he said were racists. Lawyers like to ask open-ended questions whose answers they can't anticipate.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 23, 2013, 12:48:51 PM
Yeah, I'm sure the prosecution wants to give RZ an opportunity to recite a litany of outrageous statements made by those he said were racists.

You think Robert Sr. is up to a performance like that, without a CTH blogpost in front of him? Without a ghostwriter?
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 23, 2013, 01:14:47 PM
Lawyers like to ask open-ended questions whose answers they can't anticipate.

What have they go to lose? If they fail to discredit Robert Sr., they're no worse off than if they didn't try.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: MJW on June 23, 2013, 01:16:48 PM
You think Robert Sr. is up to a performance like that, without a CTH blogpost in front of him? Without a ghostwriter?

That's why lawyers love asking that type of question: it's an adventure!
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: RickyJim on June 23, 2013, 01:21:33 PM
So who is going to call RZ,Sr. to testify?  The defense doesn't need to do it to discredit Sybrina Fulton's scream identification.  If I was a juror, the side that doesn't call a scream identifier has more credibility.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: annoyedbeyond on June 23, 2013, 01:22:18 PM
So who is going to call RZ,Sr. to testify?  The defense doesn't need to do it to discredit Sybrina Fulton's scream identification.  If I was a juror, the side that doesn't call a scream identifier has more credibility.

Thanks for finally asking this question.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: MJW on June 23, 2013, 01:35:52 PM
If I was a juror, the side that doesn't call a scream identifier has more credibility.

The advisability of calling scream ID witnesses for the defense will depend on how the prosecution's scream ID testimony goes. In most cases, I think the defense needs to call such witnesses, or else the attribution of the screams to TM goes uncontradicted. Weak evidence that it's TM might very well trump no evidence that it's GZ.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 23, 2013, 01:45:45 PM
If I was a juror, the side that doesn't call a scream identifier has more credibility.

If you were a juror, there would be five other jurors.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: RickyJim on June 23, 2013, 02:05:28 PM
Since the prosecution goes first, the defense will have plenty of time to judge how well the prosecution witnesses handle:
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: MJW on June 23, 2013, 02:34:35 PM
Since the prosecution goes first, the defense will have plenty of time to judge how well the prosecution witnesses handle ...

If the defense merely casts doubt on the credibility of the state's voice ID witnesses, the jury may conclude the defense has no counter testimony to offer, and that's the best they can do. Offering witnesses who say it's GZ screaming would be mostly to cancel out the state witnesses.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: RickyJim on June 23, 2013, 03:46:15 PM
Mark Martinson pointed out on TalkLeft
Quote
Dr. French testified that the human voice changes so much (and such an unpredictable way) when one is screaming in a life or death situation that you can't even determine (in this case at least) whether the person screaming was a male or female or even whether or not he was a native English speaker.

Dr. French is more of a human speech scientist than the other defense witnesses.  He would be an excellent rebuttal witness to claims from relatives that they could identify Trayvon screaming from that 911 call.  There just might be a juror who would be ticked off at the defense by following the prosecution tendency to insult their intelligence by putting on Zimmerman's friends and relatives to identify him as the screamer.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on June 23, 2013, 07:11:04 PM
There just might be a juror who would be ticked off at the defense by following the prosecution tendency to insult their intelligence by putting on Zimmerman's friends and relatives to identify him as the screamer.

An intelligent juror will understand their reasons for doing so.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: SuzieTampa on June 23, 2013, 08:18:53 PM
I didn't say he was.

And I didn't say that you said he was. I was trying to explain what he said.
Title: Re: Robert Zimmerman, Sr. Launches e-Book on Amazon
Post by: unitron on June 24, 2013, 03:29:22 AM
Ladies of the jury, and gentlemen alternates, at this time the state would like to introduce into evidence a book which will prove that the defendent's father is prejudiced in his favor.