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George Zimmerman Trial Coverage => Witnesses => Topic started by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 12:36:07 PM

Title: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 12:36:07 PM
About 2:30 PM.

O'Mara on direct, asking about kickboxing and MMA.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 12:36:53 PM
AP describing MMA.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 12:37:35 PM
AP explaining 'ground and pound'. He said he hasn't practiced MMA itself.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: cboldt on July 08, 2013, 12:38:58 PM
What is ground and pound?  How do you get the opponent on the ground?  Well, first you get them there, then you keep them there, then you strike downwards.  (zen)

Is there an art to get in the first blow to control a match?  Yes.  What do you do and how do you do it? 
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: cboldt on July 08, 2013, 12:41:42 PM
This is similar to describing chess by going through "all the possible games" that can be played.  There are all sorts of starts, moves, and endings.  Too many to go through in a coherent summary.

Witness is going to demonstrate a mounted position with O'Mara on the bottom.  O'Mara asks for the signals to stop.  Either tap, or yell "stop."
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 12:47:59 PM
AP: GZ chose his classes based on scheduling rather than his interests. When he first joined he wanted to do boxing, but no available class fit his schedule.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: cboldt on July 08, 2013, 12:51:02 PM
Did I hear correctly?  On a scale of 1-10, Zimmerman was less than a 1? as far as capability in grappling.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 12:51:17 PM
AP: On an athleticism scale of 1-10, GZ on joining gym was a 0.5.

O'Mara gave AP the use of last names talk.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 12:53:17 PM
Did I hear correctly?  On a scale of 1-10, Zimmerman was less than a 1? as far as capability in grappling.

General athletic accomplishment is what I understood. AP was talking about the difference between someone involved in a variety of athletic activities in childhood, vs. someone reaching adulthood without much athletic experience.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 12:54:42 PM
AP: GZ was a good student, diligent and pleasant to work with, but he had a lot of ground to make up.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 12:57:47 PM
AP: His gym requires a certain level of skill before a person competes in a ring. GZ never reached that level. He hadn't learned to punch.

Q: Had GZ reached the level of being able to box someone else?

AP: Absolutely not.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 12:59:08 PM
Q: When GZ joined gym, was he grossly obese?

AP: Absolutely.

AP: GZ made good progress losing weight.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: cboldt on July 08, 2013, 12:59:50 PM
From 0.5 to about a "1."  It takes a lot of work/practice to become proficient.  Zimmerman was diligent, coachable, just didn't have the athleticism, childhood athletics.

O'Mara asks about boxing.  First, get comfortable with your own body, how to control their body.  Footwork, calisthenics.  Also a 0.5 on the 1-10 boxing scale.  He was a hard worker, but it takes a certain amount of time to develop.  People with good athleticism are ring ready in 1-2 years.  Zimmerman never got in the ring.  He wasn't skilled enough.  Zimmerman never got past shadow boxing and heavy bag, he did not know how to punch.  Absolutely not at a point where he could box somebody else.

He progressed little beyond 0.5 on boxing.  Physically better as to body weight, but lacked athleticism.  Grossly obese.

Did he ever get to kick boxing?  No.  First has to be able to box.  Zimmerman did not have a handle on punching.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 01:03:34 PM
AP said he saw GZ not long after shooting. After asking about his appearance, O'Mara asked about something GZ said.

Objection, hearsay, sidebar.

Looks like O'Mara lost. He went back to asking about GZ's athleticism. AP said he isn't athletic.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: redstripe on July 08, 2013, 01:04:25 PM
O'Mara asks him to describe GZ's athleticism

AP says "non-athletic",  "soft, physically soft...not a lot of muscle, not a lot of strength"
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 01:05:15 PM
AP: GZ is physically soft. Predominately fat, not a lot of muscle.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 01:06:03 PM
Mantei on cross.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 01:06:44 PM
AP: He doesn't know if GZ worked out anywhere else.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: cboldt on July 08, 2013, 01:09:13 PM
Zimmerman looked like he was in a state of (emotional) shock, a few days after the incident.  A look more than one gets from just losing a fight.

State objected to some question that has slipped my mind, other than it was about getting out from a hold by "shrimping"  - objection sustained.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 01:09:22 PM
AP: He wouldn't teach fighting strategy to someone who hasn't mastered basic skills.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: redstripe on July 08, 2013, 01:09:50 PM
Mantei pressing AP about the "most complete fight gym" motto, AP says that it used to be one of the only fight gyms with such an extensive set of facilities, things have changed so they don't use the motto anymore

Mantei asks if GZ had 16-20% body fat
AP says that he probably had more body fat than that

Mantei asks about "first blow advantage" in a fight.  Asks AP if he teaches all of his students that.

AP says no, not if they haven't grasped the fundamentals

Mantei asks if GZ could have overheard it

AP says possibly he could have heard something like that anywhere, at the gym, on tv doesn't mean anything for someone who is unskilled.

Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 01:10:04 PM
AP: A person can get cut rolling around on the ground.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: redstripe on July 08, 2013, 01:11:08 PM
Mantei remarks/asks AP if a 3 minute round can seem like an eternity (I think he may regret this later)

AP says a one minute round can seem like forever if you're not in shape
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: cboldt on July 08, 2013, 01:11:53 PM
AP said he saw GZ not long after shooting. After asking about his appearance, O'Mara asked about something GZ said.

Objection, hearsay, sidebar.

I suspect that what Zimmerman was asking was how, in hindsight, could he have broken out of being mounted.  The witness mentioned "shrimping" which is a means of throwing off a person who has mounted you.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 01:14:05 PM
AP: A person on his back on the ground cannot apply an armlock to someone mounted on him unless he is very skilled.

Q: Is GZ skilled enough to do that?

AP: Absolutely not.

Q: If he said he did that you wouldn't believe him?

AP: Right.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: redstripe on July 08, 2013, 01:16:36 PM
Mantei showing off his knowledge of MMA and boxing ::) asking about the weight of various gloves, how to work on punching techniques.

Mantei asks if beginners at his gym would have been working on all types of punches

AP says we start students out with jabs then we move them up if they become more skilled

AP says that GZ did not do grappling/striking sessions simultaneously, split up several weeks of striking several weeks of grappling

AP says that only a couple of times during the course of the year did GZ come in and do weight lifting by himself
AP says that GZ did 6 hours a week max working out at the gym usually less, sometimes he didn't show up at all.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: redstripe on July 08, 2013, 01:18:37 PM
O'Mara  asks about GZ's skills, athleticism again.  Revisits some of Manteis questions about GZ's fighting abilities.

AP says GZ was not an accomplished athlete in any sense of the word
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 01:20:00 PM
AP: GZ was diligent, worked hard. He is not an athlete in any way, shape, or fashion.

O'Mara on cross, clarifying 'arm lock' as term of art.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: cboldt on July 08, 2013, 01:20:22 PM
Zimmerman was doing good with stretches and exercises.

Grabbing arms (by untrained people) is a reflex, not an armlock.

He was soft when he started in the gym,  He'd lost weight, but still had more body fat to lose, not a competitive athlete by any stretch.  Still consider him soft after his time at the gym.  Witness is excused.

15 minute recess before the next witness.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 01:22:07 PM
Q: Would you still consider GZ 'soft'?

AP: Absolutely.

AP excused, 3:20 PM.

O'Mara asked for recess to organized his witness list.

Recess for 15 minutes.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: Cylinder on July 08, 2013, 01:40:38 PM
Zimmerman's secret fight training is the weakest question posed by the state so far. It seems clear to my layperson opinion that the state is trying a burden-shifting scheme here.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 08, 2013, 01:42:56 PM
Zimmerman's secret fight training is the weakest question posed by the state so far. It seems clear to my layperson opinion that the state is trying a burden-shifting scheme here.

What? Sorry--long day already.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: Cylinder on July 08, 2013, 01:51:03 PM
What? Sorry--long day already.



They are only poking holes is Zimmerman's account - not committing to a specific alternate narrative that inculpates Zimmerman. It is burden shifting because it relies on jurors misinterpreting questions about Zimmerman's account as affirmative proof of guilt.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: Meni on July 08, 2013, 03:28:25 PM
(I couldnt catch this witness, sorry if this comment appesrs irrelevant, I've gathered that the defense used this witness to address what George's physical limitations are)

I don't see any knowledge or any level of training in a form of self defense as being a negative thing for George's defense.
In fact I would think that it would go positively towards the standard of reasonable-
In that George had some knowledge,ability to  use in attempting to respond to Martin 's attack and his 'effort' failed while the threat continued and so he was forced to draw his weapon.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 08, 2013, 03:33:37 PM
(I couldnt catch this witness, sorry if this comment appesrs irrelevant, I've gathered that the defense used this witness to address what George's physical limitations are)

I don't see any knowledge or any level of training in a form of self defense as being a negative thing for George's defense.
In fact I would think that it would go positively towards the standard of reasonable-
In that George had some knowledge,ability to  use in attempting to respond to Martin 's attack and his 'effort' failed while the threat continued and so he was forced to draw his weapon.

Except the reality is GZ is only marginally better than my 70 year old arthritic mother at self defense.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: Meni on July 08, 2013, 03:41:54 PM
Except the reality is GZ is only marginally better than my 70 year old arthritic mother at self defense.

No George was probably not ever going to bring anyone down with his blows.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: annoyedbeyond on July 08, 2013, 03:45:10 PM
No George was probably not ever going to bring anyone down with his blows.

Or--and this is the better part I think--be able to defend himself from an attacker--unless it was my 70 year old mum with the bad hip and creaky joints.

Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: Meni on July 08, 2013, 03:47:24 PM
Or--and this is the better part I think--be able to defend himself from an attacker--unless it was my 70 year old mum with the bad hip and creaky joints.

LOL.
I am also picturing my 4 year old son who just started Tae Kwan Do as maybe being a match for George.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: RickyJim on July 08, 2013, 08:47:36 PM
In case anyone doesn't know the point of Mantei bringing up whether Zimmerman could perform an armlock,
Quote
Serino: Don’t recall. OK. Is it a full-sized 9 or a small 9?
Zimmerman: Compact.
Serino: Compact? And you were able to overpower him as far as holding his wrist, you gained wrist…we call it wrist control…you gained wrist control on him basically, and you were able to basically liberate both hands…
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: OK. You raised it up. Do you remember hitting him with the pistol?
Zimmerman: No, sir.
Serino: Distance wise…
Zimmerman: I just remember not wanting to hit my own hand, I was holding his, it went past my hand, my body… (sigh
I doubt Pollock would consider what Zimmerman did an armlock.  Mantei did say in Friday's JOA hearing that how Zimmerman claimed to get the shot off was impossible.  Serino seems to imply that Zimmerman had both hands on the pistol when firing but I think when he demonstrated the shot in the reenactment and CVSA videos he only used one hand.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: Cylinder on July 08, 2013, 09:20:32 PM
Serino seems to imply that Zimmerman had both hands on the pistol when firing but I think when he demonstrated the shot in the reenactment and CVSA videos he only used one hand.

Any firearm self-defense course teaches this method as part of the close combat drill. You should extend your open weak hand, palm out and fingers spread, in front of your eyes and pull the trigger while sort of pushing the firearm away from the body. The raised hand ensures you don't shoot your own hand, thus deflecting the bullet and leaving yourself injured and in the worst-possible retention position. The open hand helps shield your eyes from powder burn. The drill is invariably called "Dracula" (think of the 60s movies when Dracula is confronted with a cross or the breaking dawn) or "jazz hands."

One of the early arguments from incredulity was that Zimmerman wouldn't have the foresight to think of this and used as a convenient lie to explain how he shot at such close distance. The truth is that it's common to any firearm training except the bare minimal of courses. That would be one of the first tactical scenarios covered by any instructor.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 10:58:05 PM
In case anyone doesn't know the point of Mantei bringing up whether Zimmerman could perform an armlock,
[snip]

This is a popular meme in the anti-GZ camp. Usually it's 'wristlock', with all sorts of variations based on interpretations or outright distortions of what GZ said. There has been some earlier discussion of this on the forum. One instance was the last straw in a certain commenter getting banned.

Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 11:11:22 PM
Following up, the meme is usually used to suggest that GZ did have TM in some kind of hold. This would support GZ being the aggressor, or that he was making TM scream, despite being on the bottom. It's also used to suggest that GZ had TM under 'control' (all of him, not just an arm or wrist) and so didn't need to shoot him.

In the face of AP's testimony, Mantei was reduced to suggesting GZ was caught in one more pointless lie, that doesn't contribute to any particular theory of the case.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 11:14:43 PM
Serino seems to imply that Zimmerman had both hands on the pistol when firing

How does Serino imply that?

I've been over this passage a few times, and no such thing ever crossed my mind.
Title: Re: Adam Pollock, Owner of Kokopelli's Gym, 7/8/13
Post by: nomatter_nevermind on July 08, 2013, 11:33:57 PM
Oh, I see, 'liberate both hands'. Nothing about the gun at that point.